Donzi: Made in China

[gold-n-rod]

I didn't want to hijack the "Apprentice" thread, but it got me to thinking.

Recreational boats seem to be one of the last durable goods manufactured exclusively in the USA for American consumption (yes, some do get exported). There are others, carpeting seems to be one that immediately comes to mind, althought the raw materials are imported, I'd guess. RV's are another.

Anyway, at the rate we're headed, is it within the realm of possibility for recreational boats to eventually be manufactured in Mexico or China or Vietnam to take advantage of cheap labor?

I know from experience that many OEM Mercruiser replacement parts are imported. The last hoses I bought were stamped "Made in China." I'd guess it's the same for a lot of factory installed parts, too.

The Perko parts sold in West Marine have made in the USA on the package. I was surprised because the cowl vents are a piece of ****, quality-wise. It appears to be the poor quality materials used, not the manufacturing process. I cite this example because it appears when it comes to cowl vents, we'll accept anything. Is this same low expectation from consumers eventually going to spill over to complete boats?

Hencho en Mexico, Donzi????

[Rootsy]

if you look at japanese automobile manufacturers.. they have found that it is entirely more cost productive to ASSEMBLE their product here... using many teir 1 parts, again assembled here... the wage cost increase and increased overhead more than make up for the logistics and tarrifs of manufacturing and then importing... except for limited production high end stuff..

many small parts taht are shipped in huge quantities from overseas are another matter but all in all... if you look in southwestern michigan... adn around the US such as in south central Ohio and california and variousother places you will find many thriving automotive related business, souly because of Honda and Toyota, their efficiency and ability to create quality stuff that people want for a "reasonable" price...

therefore i don't know exactly how Feasible it'd be to manufacture and import something liek a large boat...

btw, honda marysville and honda east liberty as well as all denso plants, etc that i've ever been to.. ARE NOT union... and they pay pretty comparable.. and the people WORK...

[Carl C]

Randy, don't overlook the PWCs and small jet boats that are coming from Japan. I'm afraid they already have their foot in the door. Also the outboard motors. I don't know what the solution is here but something must change. I'd bet that quite a few parts in a new Donzi are made overseas. Have American workers priced themselves out of work? I don't know.:(

[gold-n-rod]

btw, honda marysville and honda east liberty as well as all denso plants, etc that i've ever been to.. ARE NOT union... and they pay pretty comparable.. and the people WORK...

My wife and I had a conversation about this issue this weekend. These plants obviously are treating the employees well enough that they don't need to unionize. So do they do so because they recognize they need to treat their employees at a certain level or because they are afraid if they don't, the unions will be invited in?

The answer (if there is a clear one) holds the future of unions in this country, IMHO.

[gold-n-rod]

if you look at japanese automobile manufacturers.. they have found that it is entirely more cost productive to ASSEMBLE their product here... using many teir 1 parts, again assembled here... the wage cost increase and increased overhead more than make up for the logistics and tarrifs of manufacturing and then importing... except for limited production high end stuff.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. Yet, aren't the low production, limited market items (Z-350, Miata, etc.) built overseas? It's the high volume items that are made here.

Remember the Toyota inboard ski boat? I wonder where that was built? It didn't last long on the market. And didn't Yamaha own Century for a spell? They continued to be made in Florida during that period, IIRC.

[Morgan's Cloud]

There is already a significant number of boats built in Taiwan and other places that are designed in the U.S. and fitted out with American equipment and then imported back to the U.S. A good segment of the 'trawler' and sail market has been doing this for a long time.No doubt Phil could name a good few. Wether Mexico and China are yet involved , I do not know but would'nt be surprised.
I seem to recall that Dick Bertram raised a good few eyebrows back in the late 60's when he decided to have his Bertram Internationals made in Japan because of labor costs ( he was later VERY satisfied with the high quality of labor)

[Rootsy]

i see it this way... maybe i am wrong...

UAW, you get paid what, around 24 bucks and hour (unskilled labor here now) plus a crapload of OT - union dues, etc to work at ford, gm, etc etc etc or something like that.. getting fired is difficult.. even if you are a deadbeat... been around this environment and these people my entire life... my best friend from HS works at ford.. hangs rims, pushes a welder button... been there about 13 years, full pension, full medical funding... averages 6 figures a year... he's set... and his dad just retired a few years ago from ford... good for them...

I've also been to saturn, chrysler and ford plants and i've seen UAW workers sittin in a chair readig the paper getting paid ungodly amounts of money... every 5 minutes, guy gets up puts a part on a car, sits down...

HOW CAN A COMPANY ABSORB this kind of cost and overhead and be competative...

look at Honda and Toyota... people were averaging 18 - 20 / hr last time i was there in 2004... bell rang they sat down for 10 minutes, line side is where their break area was.. bell rings back to work and they aren't fiddle farting... line never stops... everyone is working... the japanese are fully utilizing every person to get the product done... they also have good benefits as far as health insurance and 401K... notice i said 401K... not PENSION... some of the 401K of course is company matched... profit sharing if you will

The japanese treat their people fairly and equally... iI worked for the #4 Teir 1 auto supplier in the world for almost 5 years... they are a japanese company... t is not promoted that you are no better than him or her, just taht you have a different job function... i don't care if you have MANAGER in your title... employees are continually trained and cross trained and as your skill level increases so does your pay... it is your reward as well as you have a job and benefits to come to every day... PLUS there are fairly strict absentee policies, conduct and what not... if you don't meet those standards.. you re mentored.. second offense.. you are gone... or if you run out of hours you are gone.. at any time.. doesn't matter if you've been there 20 years... states vary on this... but it is run like a business not a day care... same handbook, same rules, etc for everyone at the company... people feel they are treated fairly for the wage and benefits they get and know full well that their performance is up to them or there is someone waiting outside to take your position... it is a different mindset... people take responsibility for themselves... i've always wondered where the UAW mindset of ENTITLEMENT came from...

this is just the tip of the ice berg.. there have been novels written on this subject...

i hate to see foreign encroachment BUT the Toyota Production System is the standard by which all others shall be judged or modeled... efficiency = prosperity...

[Carl C]

Maybe everyone should be paid by some form of commission. I worked as a mechanic on commission for many years and it would really piss me off to see how many people would get away with goofing off. Especially those paid with tax money; like road workers for example.

[Pismo]

If the unions do get a hold of the marine manufacturers then the business will get shipped overseas, similar to much/most of manufacturing in the USA. The unions and regulations make overseas manufacturing more cost effective, and the real root cause, not the republicans, not WalMart, not cheap Koreans car companies.......is the American people who want the lowest price possible, and most are not willing to pay one penny more. The insatiable demand for low prices has lead to the rise of WalMart, Target, etc and the death of much of American manufacturing. Supposedly the payoff is low inflation and higher level jobs at home. It is an endless debate.

[ChromeGorilla]

Proud Michelin employee...... a non union plant and the employees are proud of it too. Michelin definately takes care of us pretty well to keep the union out. Every time the plant has voted on letting the union in the gates it get's voted down pretty heavy handidly... like a 8-2 margin. Michelin don't f-around with the union. They have, and will, and still do will shut down a plant before letting a union in. This happened several times after Michelin bought BFG and UniRoyal plants. Just last month because of ongoing labor strife with the union, Michelin is shutting down the BFG plant in Kitchener Ontario... Michelin don't play. We (our plant) picked up part of they ordwers and even got more funding.

Non union here and my benifits friggin rock. 401K matching, Michelin Pension, awesome medical coverge (probably the best benifit they provide, they spring a huge % of med insurance), plus free tires....speaking of which.....:banghead: :biggrin.:

[Formula Jr]

didn't the japanese invent that market

Uhmm.....no they didn't. The Canadians did.......

Think Snow mobles and AMF and all that...........

[Lenny]

Wow, yes Owen you are right.

As for this quote Gold'n Rod
Anyway, at the rate we're headed, is it within the realm of possibility for recreational boats to eventually be manufactured in Mexico or China or Vietnam to take advantage of cheap labor?

If I had a few spare minutes, I would post an article I got in this months Professional Boat Builder Magazine, and to cut it down to simplicities, simply states (after a few great reading pages) that we (Canucks and Americans) have MANY people there now setting them up for the manufacture of our products in regards to boat building. RIF molding to be one of the biggest which will emcompass the manufacture of any small runabout that we hold dear and flip boats out in 20 minutes cured.

Immediately, it is a demand for technical and hands on expertise for their new found insatiable appetite for large (70+ ) yachts to be manufactured in house. Their new found wealth and instant millionaire society we have all helped create is driving this.

Great article, I will post it when I get some time. (emotions are currently high, due to things unfolding in the Dessert and others )

[Formula Jr]

Some morning reading:
What Lenny is referring to and calling RIF, most people call it RMP for Rotationally Molded Plastic, has been around since the 60's. What is new, is the creation of incredably huge molds that can make entire boat hulls up to about 22 feet and I believe the introduction of micro spheres to the polyethylene thermoplastic making it lighter. Almost all of the ones I have seen are of the open fishing design profiles in this web page.
http://www.galloway.co.nz/macarticles.html
Yet, there is no real barrier to poping out decked sport boats with I/O drives.
GenMar, MN is one of the North American Leaders in this form of marine construction.
Plug this into google and there is a lot to read.
Plastic Rotational Molding Marine Hulls Genmar
There are companies in the US also making these.
http://www.triumphboats.com/noflash_index.cfm
other words to pop into a search engine are
VEC Technology Inc.
and
Rotolene
And there is a very good disscusion on it here.
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002584.html
And the early patent here.
http://vintage-reprints.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=0_12&products_id=19464

[CHACHI]

Owen you sure I had a kawasaki stand up in the summer of 78 don't recall bombadier having anything like it at the time either way it was not an american venture, just an american market
ok you are right they didn't do it first just better ;)
http://www.pwia.org/faqs/background.htmlI belive that Bombardier had a sit down watercraft long before Kawasaki introduced their stand up. The Bombardier craft was done up in their corporate colors of yellow and black, just like the snowmobiles. Ken

[Formula Jr]

There were also many, many little PWC makers in the late fifties and early 60's, : stand up types like the Jet Skiis, and sitdown saddle types like the Waverunners. But these had outboards on them. The SeaDoo was just the first to use a jet drive and mass marketing.

If you grew up as a water rat, and are around 47 now, you would have done what every other kid that ate Captain Crunch did in 1967-'68, and order the little battery operated SeaDoo toy offered on the back of the box for Two Dollars. And then get disappointed when you put it in the bath tub because it didn't go fast and you had waited three whole weeks for it to arrive! :(

Thank you Mattyboy for providing the link. That brought back many
happy memories.

This skilled labor cost question is getting less important everyday.
How many people do you need to spit out a Rotolene boat:
For an entire factory making, say, one fully rigged boat in four hours? I'm thinking small scale, making two a day. But that is still
the potential of 520 boats a year. It scalable in the sense that you can think of production teams as cells. Two cells and you get 1040 a year, and three cells you get 1560 a year. I am not sure of this, But I saw a picture of the Genmar plant in MN and I think it had 8.
So that one plant can put out 4160 a year potentially.

The nice thing, If one was to care about such things, is since these are thermoplastic hulls, the old ones can be shedded back into pellets and made back into new ones. You can't do that with fiberglas.

Fiberglas, what ever you think of it, doen't fit anymore in a 6 billion person world. I hate fibergas in a way. It is irresponsible.

[Lenny]

Owen, Glastron for one, is doing RIF in the US now. It actually uses a swimming pool of water as the "tool" and to create the pressures. Interesting stuff.

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=48086

http://www.moea.state.mn.us/publications/SIC3732.pdf

[joseph m. hahnl]

WOW: $24.00 bucks I'm in the wrong state.I Agree that Quality is in the hands that make the product.People standing around reading papers is poor management not the fault of a union.I Know for me, no person any where in the world is going to make it better than me. For instance my company out sourced a part to another machine shop. Out of 200pcs only 40 were in tolerance.Then at my shop the inspectors had no clue and it really thru a wrench in the gear.we ended getting the job back and I started setting it up on a friday one part off and a few adjustments and the 1st shot (1st Opperation) was in the print. I cut my second shot(2nd operation) made My adjustments and then I had to go home."in this technique of machining the part is machined on all six sides to make 1 or more complete part per cycle of a CNC Milling machine.Over the weekend 3 different people worked on it and couldn't get it running. When I came in monday morning there where 13 scrap pieces under the bench and it was still out of print.I ran one Part thru complete Made all My adjustments And the 2nd part Off was a keeper.It has been runnig for 6 weeks know and has only made scrap from people making adjustments and F'N it up ("These are people who Don't know how to inspect nor have any understanding of Machining realativity").
But Every Time I fix it and it runs flawless.(It now runs 3 parts pph 100% conforming). So thats roughly 10 people and 2 machine shops and I'm the only person that can make these parts. Rep power 2 my ass:cistineb:




Unions don't create fat lazy people Mcdonalds does.
If you can't take pride in your body?How can you take pride in your work?




joe

[dr]

I am familiar with a large consumer goods company which the manufacture of hardwood floors is one of their primary products. A few years ago they began shipping logs to China and having them completely processed and returned as finished goods…considering the cost to handle, transport, ship, and distribute I have no idea how this is economically feasible.

[ChromeGorilla]

Rep power 2 my ass:cistineb:



LOL....:biggrin:

[Lenny]

DR, as an FYI, and to give you an idea of the unbalance of labour/materials/finished goods between Countries here is another scenario.

I have brought in Granite now from China. For countertops in bath and kitchen.

Here we sell the product, installed for about $160-180 a running foot. So, for an 8' kitchen countertop you could ball park 1200-1400 dollars. More for a sink cut out etc. Laminate tops (Formica etc on particleboard) wholesale to me for about $15-$17. So for the same top, installed ($7 a foot installation) we are looking at about $175.00 then some mark-up on the product.

Get this. I buy 8' long 1 1/4" Granite with polished edges, nosing, bevel/underwrap/cove/square wrap (any edge basically) for $ 89.00US a piece delivered to the Port of Vancouver. (here basically).

Half the price of Formica style products on particle board. $11.00 a foot compared with $160-$180 here. 15 times cheaper than what is available locally. All of the worlds quarrys now are shipping BLOCKS of Granite, from Brazil/South America/Suadi Arabia/Africa etc to China for machining and handling where they then market it worldwide. I thought I would include this scenario, as it is dramatic and weighs MANY more times than a log and is still feasible. Much of our LOG industry has followed suit as to yours.

I had to quote a job a while back for about a 1000 three level, solid PINE freestanding shelving units and package them. The best number I could come up with, and these were not pretty, was about $42.00 each, shrinkwrapped and the trees grow here. Well, I lost that bid and they were made in China, from our logs, and machined and shipped back, shrinkwrapped ready to market for $7.00 each. The wood would cost me about $24.00 alone. :eek: but they are starting with our logs and machining over there with ridiculous wages levels.

I think we have only begun to see an economic spiral that will make these look like the "good ol' days."

[Rootsy]

it's not that you can't manufacture a superior quality product overseas vs here, it's that in the process of developing that product or manufacture they go far enough to use inferior materials and shoddy design... and you end up with stuff you buy at walmart... if they decided (and sometimes on some things it is done... ) to use equal (or sufficient) materials, equal (or very good) design, etc and cheap labor with state of the art automation assembly and manufacturing assy we'd really be in freaking trouble here...

in the auto industry... even i something comes from across a pond... it is quality... the last thing anyone (a tier 1, tier 2 or OEM) wants is warranty issues... and recalls... cheap is one thing... but cheaper and quality are the name of the game...

the playing field needs to be leveled when it comes to wage comparisons and benefits for those people on the other side of the big Pacific... but you have teens and 20 somethings by the droves in China flocking to work in factories because it pays more than most have ever seen... think Henry Ford circa 1920's and 5 dollar a day wage scenario... the only way to keep it here is to make it cost prohibitive or not quite profitable enough vs the headace to manufacture there vs here...

Joseph... when you are feeling really froggy... stop on over my way... i'll toss some parts at you to run... Denso has a way of making even the best machinists feel really stupid with some of the off the wall **** they come up with...

[dr]

enough to foresee what the future holds but I I’m inclined to agree with Lenny’s assessment “I think we have only begun to see an economic spiral that will make these look like the "good ol' days."

As someone who graduated from college in 74 and promptly went to work as a Quality Engineer, then manager, Director ect and spent most of the past 30 years as a tier 1 and 2 automotive parts supplier I agree with all of Rootsy’s observations RE the industry and it scares the hell out of me. I guess I’ve been part of the problem for a great number of years having bought Japanese cars exclusively since 77, and outsourcing parts first to Mexico for 15 years and China for the last 5. Part of my “problem “has been never knowing what the solution was.

Interestingly enough I’d had enough and left my company at the end of last year, looking for a new adventure…considering teaching, maybe going back to school…OK, I confess also considering going to China and getting companies compliance to TS standards.

[joseph m. hahnl]

Rootsy: Amen brother. I'd take you up on your offer but your just to far away.

I think in all reality the cumbustion engine is going to be a thing of the past. Eventually it will have to be phazed out. So I think if GM, Ford, Invested more into alternative motion engines they could get a head of the market and ensure thiere place in this millenium.

joe

[Lenny]

I am currently (in a new job for a while) driving a hybrid Toyota Prius. Half electric/gas.

It really is something. Just hard to get used to the engine shutting down all the time while driving and then cutting in flawlessly when uou need more torque. I have been driving it EVERYDAY for two weeks now and I still have half a tank. It is incredible, just not an F-350 in the torque equation.

Did I mention that our gas is now $4.86 a gallon :( (regular 87 RON )

[Carl C]

Found this under my seat............:mad: ..............

[SideshowRob]

I was just talking about this yesterday... with my Chiropractor :smash:
Discussing the irony of it all.
Wood, Nickel, Cement etc... We are selling all these resources hand over fist (I used to work for a Shotcrete manufacturer, and for a while we had a really hard time getting cement, because China was buying so much)
Anyways, everyone is so happy that the economy is good and our resources are getting top dollar. (Sudbury is all about Nickel. Right now nickel is at a high..... Most miners in town are making close to $100k with bonuses (they also have thee best pension and benefits around.)
Anyways my point is we as a society are all about the here and now. But then complain when overseas companies are selling products for much less than Can, and USA can. We complain.... but we are sending the fuel to fire their success.
What can we do though? If we raise our prices too much, they will go elsewhere. Russia is also a huge nickel producer.... Pretty sure they have trees too.
So what do we do?

Go Oilers!!!:yippie: