View Full Version : Cuda, can you handle a tiling question from me?
Lenny
02-12-2006, 08:58 AM
Yes, after making kitchens for 16 years, I am finally doing mine. It is all but finished in the shop, just not installed. I have to rip out the old one, finish putting down another flooring substrate, (which will give 1 1/4" of ply) and paint the walls. Then install the tile.
I have a few questions in regards to the adhesive height on the ply, setting, and prefered grouts.
I'd put down a cementious backer board if it doesn't cause elevation problems, then tile over that. If you can't use the backer board, just be sure the plywood it down tight, with no deflection you can feel walking across it. Then use a multipurpose thin set (Versabond from Home Depot is good), and lay the tile. Grout is pretty much grout. They make an epoxy grout, but it's terribly expensive, and a real bitch to work with. If you screw up the epoxy grout, you have to pull the whole floor back out, there ain't no getting it off.
I'm not a big believer in grout sealers. Today's grout is much denser and poly-modified to make it harder to stain. When I used to do residential work, I'd NEVER sell them grout sealer, or even install it. I did it once, and the lady thought I'd sold her a maintanence contract. She'd call me and tell me her grout was dirty. I finally explained to her that stainless steel will get dirty if you don't clean it.:fire:
What size tile are you putting on the floor? That will determine the size notch trowel you need.
Lenny
02-12-2006, 09:53 AM
12" x 12" Joe. Pics below. The additional 5/8" Flooring is screwed, (real screws, Lo-Root) in a 6" grid. It is going nowhere and the floor joists are 2x12"'s and like new. :D
Got a preferred tile wet saw in mind. I might buy one if under a grand.
Lenny, sounds like your subfloor will be fine. Use a 1/4 x 3/8 square notch trowel.
As far as a wet saw, Home Depot sells this little gem made by Husky. It comes with a bunch of little attachments, a rolling stand, and even has a laser guide light for cutting. All this for $297. I have five wet saws ranging from this one to a $2000 tile saw. I use this one more than any other, because it's so easy to haul around and set up.
If you want to buy a full size wet saw, buy a Target or a Felker. They are the exact same saw with the Balfour motors. My oldest one is 15 years old, and my cousin has a Target he bought in 1979. :)
To be honest with you, if I were just tiling a kitchen, I most likely wouldn't set up the wet saw even if it were on the truck. There can't be that many "L" cuts in the floor. I'd just use an angle cut grinder with a diamond blade. I'm willing to bet you already have one of these around. The handiest damn tool I own. I probably have a half dozen of them. I bought this DeWalt one a couple weeks ago for $59 dollars because I was at a job and didn't have the wet saw. The blade cost $27. If you get a diamond blade, get the smooth continous edge blade. Of course, this is assuming you have a handcutter for the straight cuts. If not, buy the Husky saw. In the picture of the angle cut grinder, you can see the case of my favorite hand cutter. It's a Felker. They cost about $180 in a tile shop, but I bought this one online for $140.
MP, Target is what I think is far and away the best tile saw. I friggin hate MK saws, they are heavy, and suck! After a very short time, they don't cut straight anymore.
We did have a Tilematic come in for repair a couple years ago. New motor, replaced a guide. The guy never came back for it, so we stuck it on the floor and sold it.. I kinda wish I had kept it...
I bet he burned it up with low voltage running it on 200' of 16 gauge extension cord, plugged into a six way on another 100' of cord. :)
Can you get the rip guide for a Tilematic? If so, I'll take two. My men are good about losing them immediately.:splat:
gcarter
02-12-2006, 11:12 AM
Joe, what do you think of laying tile on some sort of membrane to eliminate tile cracking?
We did that 12 1/2 years ago and still not a single crack.
Joe, what do you think of laying tile on some sort of membrane to eliminate tile cracking?
We did that 12 1/2 years ago and still not a single crack.
We use it over expansion joints in the slab. I don't know if it works or not, but it makes McDonald's feel better.
Lenny
02-12-2006, 12:34 PM
Cuda, thanx for the info ;)
:yes:
Cuda, is that 1/4" W by 3/8" high or the reverse?
Yes, quarter wide by three eights deep.
hardcrab
02-13-2006, 06:15 PM
Joe, what do you think of laying tile on some sort of membrane to eliminate tile cracking?
We did that 12 1/2 years ago and still not a single crack.
tile installations fail for one reason only ; movement.
if the substrate flexes, the tiles will crack if the adhesive has done it's job, they will pop loose if not. 1 1/8" is the minimum plywood thickness required for 16" O.C. joists as listed by the T.C.A. (tile councel of america) - this is true for grout joints also.
it also helps if you were to "back butter" large tiles to be sure thinset has good coverage. also, drag thinset across the substrate using the flat side of the trowel. all of this eliminates air pockets and bonds the surfaces
generally' 5/8" subfloor is standard, add 1/2" ply to the tiled areas. run the 2nd layer in the opposite direction leaving 1/8" gap at the perimeters. nail/screw the 2nd layer every 4-6" throughout the entire field' not just the edges. be sure to sweep / vac well before 2nd layer to prevent MOVEMENT.
as far as i know the most dense grouts available are the "CUSTOM" brand; dense=less porosity=less dirty water in joints=less maint., also ; larger tiles have less grout joints / less maint.
i'll be happy to go on, let me know.............
gcarter
02-13-2006, 08:34 PM
tile installations fail for one reason only ; movement.
if the substrate flexes, the tiles will crack if the adhesive has done it's job, they will pop loose if not. 1 1/8" is the minimum plywood thickness required for 16" O.C. joists as listed by the T.C.A. (tile councel of america) - this is true for grout joints also.
it also helps if you were to "back butter" large tiles to be sure thinset has good coverage. also, drag thinset across the substrate using the flat side of the trowel. all of this eliminates air pockets and bonds the surfaces
generally' 5/8" subfloor is standard, add 1/2" ply to the tiled areas. run the 2nd layer in the opposite direction leaving 1/8" gap at the perimeters. nail/screw the 2nd layer every 4-6" throughout the entire field' not just the edges. be sure to sweep / vac well before 2nd layer to prevent MOVEMENT.
as far as i know the most dense grouts available are the "CUSTOM" brand; dense=less porosity=less dirty water in joints=less maint., also ; larger tiles have less grout joints / less maint.
i'll be happy to go on, let me know.............
Around here, houses are built on concrete slabs, they always move and crack. Cracked tile is always a byproduct of this. So when we had our house built 12 plus years ago, the tile contractor talked us into letting him use a material he taped to the concrete that was similar to roofing felt but not black and tarry. It was green, I think. Anyway he did his layout lines on this material and laid the tile directly on it. None of the tiles have ever cracked. We have been very pleased.
hardcrab
02-13-2006, 08:50 PM
there is a method / product made by LATICRETE (forget the name) which is a snap together plastic grid that is placed on the floor (not fastened to) and on a vapor barrier. the grid is 1/4 or 1/2" thick, you trowel thinset thru it and directly tile on top of.
the purpose is to allow tile installations on structurally sound substrates that may not be the ideal surface material , or to allow expansion below since this is effectively a floating surface.
it's not a gimmic, it's a widely used method commercially
Cuda,
Ordered the rip guides just now from my parts guy, forgot to check and see if we had them in stock today. I'll let ya know tomorrow..
Thanks Scott.
there is a method / product made by LATICRETE (forget the name) which is a snap together plastic grid that is placed on the floor (not fastened to) and on a vapor barrier. the grid is 1/4 or 1/2" thick, you trowel thinset thru it and directly tile on top of.
the purpose is to allow tile installations on structurally sound substrates that may not be the ideal surface material , or to allow expansion below since this is effectively a floating surface.
it's not a gimmic, it's a widely used method commercially
Schluter Systems makes one of those grid deals too.
also, drag thinset across the substrate using the flat side of the trowel.
That's what it tells you to do on the back of all the thinset bags. In all my years doing tile, I've never yet seen a tile setter that did that. :)
Also, if you read the grout bags, they don't tell you to use water and a sponge to remove the excess grout either. :)
tile installations fail for one reason only ; movement.
if the substrate flexes, .............
I disagree with that.
In my experience the reasons for tile failure is:
1. Not giving tile enough time to set before walking on them
2. Bad installation (either wrong thinset, or too small notch trowel)
3. Bad floor prep (dirty, greasy, or oily slab)
4. Slab movement
Btw, Custom is my least favorite grout. I like Mapei and Laticrete.
hardcrab
02-14-2006, 12:11 PM
I disagree with that.
In my experience the reasons for tile failure is:
1. Not giving tile enough time to set before walking on them
2. Bad installation (either wrong thinset, or too small notch trowel)
3. Bad floor prep (dirty, greasy, or oily slab)
4. Slab movement
well, the first 3 items on the list fall into the category of shoddy workmanship,
the fourth is ....................... movement.
this where the grid method really shines or, the system that worked for you (the green membrane) as it isolates the bonding surface of the tile from the ill's of the substrate
and yes, i can believe you have never seen anyone backbutter tiles.
what is important is to have thorough coverage of the setting material to prevent air pockets; the larger the tile (especially over 12") the more attention should be paid to material coverage.
notched trowels come in sizes to control the spread (i know you know this)
and lastly; grout mfgs. don't suggest liberal amounts of water to clean up since this will tend to make a slurry on the grout joint surface and drag the material out, also colors will bleach out with excess water.
i believe grouting is tougher than setting tiles.
but all in all, it's paste and paper, preparation is everythig and you reap what you sow.
DOH! So thats what these things are sitting on my desk... One old style, one new style.. shoot me a ship to and I'll UPS em to ya... Sorry bout the delay, I've been using em for paperweights for a week or three now... :banghead:
I meant to ask you about them and give you a check in Miami. I don't know what else could have possibly been on my mind. :)
I got the rip guides today. Thanks Scott. A check will be on it's way tomorrow.
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