whats the diff ine build quality mid 70's vs mid 90's?

[ratman]

did the build quality or layup schedule change im looking at the early boats i like the metal hardware vs the late model plastic crap. but i was wondering if the older boats were of a better build quality in the 16 and 18 footers. thx ratman

[RedDog]

Considering the advances in materials such a resins, there is no reason to think the later models would not have higher quality. What "plastic crap" on the later models are you thinking of? I haven't found any on mine...

[ratman]

the swithes on the old boats are brass and ss the newer boats use plastic, the steering wheels, the dash panel, the throttle assm, what isn't plastic on the new boats. i was also told the new boats are lighter layup. weight crushes waves and gives the boat a solid feel, my 35ft cig mistress weighs 2500 or 3000 lbs more than modern day boats and they cant hang with me in the rough stuff at all. we had a 76 18 and years later when i sat in a early 90's 18 i was shocked that everything was made of cheap plastic!

[Donzigo]

I don't understand the question either. It seems that if you are talking about "plastic crap", and plastic is a polymer, then isn't the hull made of "plastic"?

I find each of the years of Donzis, having their own special identity. I have owned three Donzis, all from the late 80's. Even though they don't share certain advances in technology and other design changes, etc. etc., I find them special boats, in their own way.

RE: your profile.............interesting website that you own. Do you do the research yourself?

[DAULEY]

early boats were hand laid ,later they were chopper gun but the products of today may be better i still like the older boats better not as mass produced

took longer to build a boat

[cigarette30]

I recall a conversation with the "new Donzi reps" at the 1989 Annapolis boat show when the decision was made to go to a more "production" boat. (Genth era) Everything from the scoops that were once made exclusive, windshield, and yes the hand lay up to more "chopper gun" would be phased in.

I am not sure of the time period this took affect, nor how many subsequent times it may have been modified.

However, I can say, hopefully without a massive storm from many of our great friends here, I don't personally think the ride quality, or "feeling" is anywhere near the same. (I have had a 1995, and 2004 since then) Now granted, they are faster, than those in the 1970's and 80's, it was very uncommon without big power to see mid to upper 70's,(mph) not anymore. There is a very distinct "bang" when crossing waves, that used to be a "thud". I also have seen several of the interior liners forward (foot well, and storage bin, now simply set in a glob of bonding material come loose.

Anyway, I still like the boat, it is a "Classic", and although I retrofitted many features to original on my 04, I wish it had the older lay up. I attached the 1989 18', the 1995 22', and the 04.

[BUIZILLA]

I think that windshield on that red '89 22 above, is the BEST and SLEEKEST looking windshield I've seen yet on a 22.... it really makes the lines of that hull look great.

Your opinion's may vary, but I hope Donzi takes note of this...

Cig 30 where did your 95 boat go? or the 89 boat for that matter?

JH

[BUIZILLA]

picky, picky, picky

[gold-n-rod]

Take the deck vents/scoops for example. On my '03, the cheap pot-metal is already corroding under the thin chrome plating. They need to be replaced after only 3 years. :confused:

I've seen 35+ yo boats with nicer appearing, non-replated original vent hardware.

:wavey:

[Barry Eller]

BTW, my (ours actually, Buizilla found it first) 92 22 Classic was without a doubt the finest built 22 I have ever seen.... HArdware was not great, but the hull was amazing...
Of course, it wasnt a Donzi :eek: :eek:
It was a Chris Craft....
My 1993 22 Classic, says Donzi by Chris Craft on the sticker by the throttle lever. Was this because Donzi was owned by OMC and OMC owned Chris Craft?
What Chris Craft / Donzi boats were built at the same plant, and where was that plant? Any simular designs?

[ratman]

Take the deck vents/scoops for example. On my '03, the cheap pot-metal is already corroding under the thin chrome plating. They need to be replaced after only 3 years.

I've seen 35+ yo boats with nicer appearing, non-replated original vent hardware. this is what im talking about. the early boats were not built by bean counters like the late model boats. the metal bits on the newer boats is crap for quality, as are all the cheap azz plastic switches, steering wheel, throttle and shifters assms. what year did they stop the hand laid process on the 18. chopper gun equals chit build quality, see bayliner does theres fine boats in a simlar manner. i wonder why outer limits doesn't use state of the art chopper gun blown glass? the whump vs bang sound hits the nail on the head! go for a ride in my 35ft cig then go for a ride in a lighter chopper gun built perf boat hitting 6's and 8 footers at 70 see which boat makes you feel more comfy...i mean nobody wants to run a new boat in the big stuff with me cuz they wont hold up to it. a 90's boats hardware will rot in the sun while the 20 year older boats all metal morse controls are looking proud. don would roll over in his grave if new they were chopper gun built with cheat plastic switches and controls! i had no idea the stooped to chopper gun build methods.:kaioken:

[Greg Maier]

I believe that the only use of chopper guns on modern classics is for the skin coat to keep the cloth from printing through the gelcoat. I am restoring a 95 22 Classic right now, and I can tell you that it is hand-laid, not chopper gun.

[RedDog]

ahhhh, I understand now - my Donzi is crappy. Guess I need to sell it before it falls apart and buy an old one. Anyone want to buy a crappy '98 22?

thanks for the subtle tip Rat:fire: :fire:

[DAULEY]

Greg
when you say you are restoring your 1995 to what extent are you restoring
i would think it would last longer than 10 to 11 years please explain

[TuxedoPk]

LOL, looks like we got out first thread for the new political section??

I really don't care to cull through chopper gun rantings in the new section. Keep these types of posts in its own self scraping Performance Talk cat box. I don't want to lose that new section aromatic smell prematurely. :biggrin.: :biggrin.: :wink:

[cigarette30]

I think that windshield on that red '89 22 above, is the BEST and SLEEKEST looking windshield I've seen yet on a 22.... it really makes the lines of that hull look great.
Your opinion's may vary, but I hope Donzi takes note of this...
Cig 30 where did your 95 boat go? or the 89 boat for that matter?
JH

Buz, you know I am not sure ..... both were traded to dealers, I have not seen or heard from them since. That windshield was on the 18', the factory retained it on the 22' a few years longer, but then used a, well you know, the "other one" on the future 18's.

[SideshowRob]

Wow, am I ever glad I don't own a crappy "new" Donzi, that would be embarrassing. ( read SERIOUS sarcasm please) What we've witnessed here is one of those moments where it would have been a good idea to walk away before hitting submit. A Donzi- Any Donzi is a well built boat with a lot of history, and although they may have gone through changes, they are still one hell of a boat! And we are all here to appreciate all of our boats, and discuss how to and what not to, and where to.... and an occasional cross border debate. :tongue:

[Greg Maier]

Dually,

Rotten starboard engine stringer and rotten transom. Stringer had actually rotted to the point that there was no wood where the engine mount bolts through. The transom wood fell out like mulch once I cut it open from the inside. Also, I had a parquet coring in my transom. Instead of a solid piece of wood, I had 2 inch wide strips of plywood aligned vertically with flexible caulk in between. I don't know if this is common on other Classics. Also, the engine stringer interfered with the inboard K-Plane mounting bolt, so a lag bolt was used, a real nice touch !

[joseph m. hahnl]

Ouch: Really now! Don't blame Donzi for the commercial items that they come with. They don't make them and quite frankly what can you get that isn't plastic.This is the modern age of plastics and most all that stuff is only avalible from the Chinese.
It's sad but it is a fact of life . It has become Quantity over Quality in all manufacturing.

Newer materials are stronger, they need less of it making the boat lighter
I would never ever say a Donzi is cheaply made.

So to answer your question yes the process changed so did the materials.
If you like the older boats over newer ones then buy the older boat.
As far as a new Donzi being Cheap in anyway I would strongly disagree
"NO WAY".





joe

PS: That looks like the EYEtalian style windshield on the 89. The same thats on my minx

[ratman]

greg your rot problem is the riggers fault for not sealing up those bolt holes when it was rigged.

[Greg Maier]

Ratman,

I completely agree with you. This is not a design problem, it is a quality control problem. I'm not bashing Donzi by any means, they are my favorite boats, which is why I have one. Needless to say, no matter how "good" a boat is, poor rigging can lead to serious problems just a few short years down the road.

[ratman]

do get so touchy, i call a spade a spade. do you think a 95 is as well made as a 75? do you think they are using some chopper gun glass in the later boats because it make them stronger? you can rationalize it any way you want. if donzis heart was in it wouldn't them offer these boats in fiberglass/kevlar/carbon epoxy vacuum bagged layups? the technology is avail. when the sound of the old boats landing off a big way is thump, and the newer ones go bang,its because they new ones are better made?. i just bought some toggle switches for my cig with metal bodies and metal switch levers, so i would assume donzi would be able to locate and buy as good quality switch as i just did and if they really gave a chit about quality as i do about every component that goes in my cigarette they would sell the boats for 200 dollars more cuz thats about what the difference would be to use better quality components! someone at donzi made a choice to use much lower quality components, sad but true. the thing that makes all of don arrano's boats legendary and hold the highest resale was the build quality the speed and the ability to take a azz whoopin in big seas and not stress crack all to peices. do you think don would ever haved stooped to chopper gun use for boats he built? i just took the fuel lines out of my 1979 cig to run 1/2 id fuel lines to feed enough fuel to my 1000hp blower motors, but the fuel lines would have lasted another 20 years that were in my boat, the lines were 3/8 id but the od was close to 3/4" and hade a cloth woven layed between the rubber. every thing on my cig is original for the most part rigging wise do you think the swithes and rigging on the new donzis will hold up like the old stuff? sorry if the truth hurts but its still the truth, yes donzis are well made, no they are not nearly as well made as they could be, and are not even what they once were, so buk up take it on the chin and thank the bean counters for diluting the quality of these boats. if donzi wanted some high qulity part and it wasn't avail they could have it manufactered as don did in the early days, he wanted the best of everything in his boats and thats why they were the best period

[ratman]

BTW don only hired the best riggers and did some of the rigging himself, my 35ft mistress is 27 years old with zero rot anywhere on the boat cuz the rigger cared and wasn't the least exspnsive guy don could hire to rig the boats..

[ratman]

It has become Quantity over Quality in all manufacturing. thats what the bayliner salesman says! seen how outerlimits or doug wright or skater or some of the modern day companies that have owners in control that won't accept second best for the boats they build with thier names on them. thank god skip bought cigarette and not a company with better bean counters then riggers or glass layup guys.

[ratman]

I recall a conversation with the "new Donzi reps" at the 1989 Annapolis boat show when the decision was made to go to a more "production" boat. (Genth era) Everything from the scoops that were once made exclusive, windshield, and yes the hand lay up to more "chopper gun" would be phased in.

I am not sure of the time period this took affect, nor how many subsequent times it may have been modified.

However, I can say, hopefully without a massive storm from many of our great friends here, I don't personally think the ride quality, or "feeling" is anywhere near the same. (I have had a 1995, and 2004 since then) Now granted, they are faster, than those in the 1970's and 80's, it was very uncommon without big power to see mid to upper 70's,(mph) not anymore. There is a very distinct "bang" when crossing waves, that used to be a "thud". I also have seen several of the interior liners forward (foot well, and storage bin, now simply set in a glob of bonding material come loose. thx for sharing your personal exp with these boats, i run my boats hard in big water and want to find out what i can from owners of the late model boats that are very familiar with the older boats as well, i was originally searching for a mid 70's 18 like we had when i was a kid, but one of the members here has a 95 which is a lot more money then the older boats but it has a bravo which i like cause i think i would hurt alphas from big air in big water with some hp.

[ratman]

no i dont, they went to lighter layup and stepped hulls, i wouldn't buy either! when i talked about the best boat builders of today i didn't include cigarette for that reason, however skip the owner of cig didn't stoop to chopper gun usage. the new boats are lighter with step so they can get big speeds without big power, thats why i went with old school weight and build quality and am running 1000hp a side so it will hang with the new boats in small water and full on walk the dog on em in the big stuff. i am a realist bro, but now skater o/l and some of the others i mentioned are using vacuum bagging, epoxy kevlar carbon build technology. i had charlie mcarthey on my boat a month ago he built bannana boats and worked for don at cigarette for a long time before buying the cig 24ft molds and starting his own company bannana boat co, he now owns the cig molds for the 24 28 and the 35ft 9" mistress. he is going to start building these boats using the modern day lay schedules and yes they will be better boats then don built in the day and its not cuz he's gonna use a chopper gun of a bunch of plastic to make em faster. he has a passion for these boats that a bean counter can't comprehend. peace out

[Rootsy]

i donno Rat, don only owned donzi for what? 2 or 3 years??? my 66 18 that is a bare shell of itself is of pretty light layup and most of the coring was gone because, you guessed it... none of the holes were sealed up in the deck... not speaking of the vent holes someone else cut but of the fuel filler, bow light and lifting eye holes... factory installed holes... i'd be afraid to bolt a sbc into the existing stringers... and well the early 16's, built by, you guessed it, Don himself, have this tendancy to ummm punch the stringers right through the bottom of the hull... so much for that theory eh...

now take my 97 16... it has some respectable HP under the hatch... it's seen some pretty decent speeds and i've bounced it off of some pretty good waves a time or two... and you'll be very very VERY hard pressed to even find a stress crack in the gel... anywhere... period... it is hand laid... and the glass is printing through the gel if you look at it just so in the right light... none of my cheap plastic switches have failed, none of my potmetal chrome vacuum plated vents have so much as a blister anywhere... no waterlogged wood or coring... far as i am concerned, if i didn't tell anyone what year it was i bet 95% of the people looking at it would think it was 2000 or newer and this thing is almost a decade old already...

if you want the heavy brass chrome plated vents you can buy them and pop em right on your late model boat... what are they though... 3 or 400 bucks for 4 of them? a member here recreates them and has them for sale i believe...

most of the parts that donzi is using are off the shelf with good availability and replacability if needed. custom = $$$$$ and headaches... if you are producing more than a few of something...

FYI... the plastic shifter stuff is directly from merc... not a donzi thing...

AFAIC, every decade of the classic has it's own unique build charactaristics based upon what the manufacturer had available at the time, what they thought was the best way to do something for the least cost and best longevity... materials and technologies change with time... and so do the boats...

i've been in a LOT of 80's and early 90's cafe racers and top guns... intimate with some of them and as far as rigging... and overall quality... i wasn't overly impressed... i once chased electrical gremlins through a 3 year old 35 cafe for 6 weeks... what a mess that thing was...

JR

[cigarette30]

Gentleman,

Lets also take notice of one very important, non disputed fact. The price of a Donzi, in the late Chishom days was pushing the limits, take that price and increase it proportionately to today's standards, see if the price and quality are not fairly similar. I.e.: A 38' Cigarette could purchased in the mid 80's for well less than $100,000, today it's $400,000 and higher.

A 22' Classic (several members have the price sheets) with big block power was $35,000.... (conservatively) are they $140,000 today?

That is exactly what I was told at the Annapolis show, it was all about percentages, the scoops and the windshields, the custom one's are 3 times as much, the labor of chopper gun, same thing.

Guys, I do like my Donzi (note Ratman, I have them both) but it's a "production" boat, and respectively priced that way. Bottom line, Donzi has relatively held the prices down, made some concessions through the years, can't say the same with Cigarette and some others.

[TuxedoPk]

however skip the owner of cig didn't stoop to chopper gun usage.

Paging Lenny.... I've been waiting and waiting for you to jump in on this thread. I'm on my third bag of popcorn already :biggrin.:

[gcarter]

Gentleman,
A 22' Classic (several members have the price sheets) with big block power was $35,000.... (conservatively) are they $140,000 today?
FWIW, $35,000.00 in 1984 is $65,000.00 late 2005.

[Lenny]

Paging Lenny.... I've been waiting and waiting for you to jump in on this thread. I'm on my third bag of popcorn already :biggrin.:

...nope...others can have at this. I have made enough "observations" lately.

[Marlin275]

I've been waiting and waiting for you to jump in on this thread. I'm on my third bag of popcorn already :biggrin.:

Rich
I've been waiting for you to jump in on this thread.
Weren't you saying the same thing about cheap chopper guns on new boats?

[TuxedoPk]

Rich
I've been waiting for you to jump in on this thread.
Weren't you saying the same thing about cheap chopper guns on new boats?

:sombrero: No Senior. Dat was my twin brudda. I noah butter than to saya someting like that. Eye donta maka no comment on da Chopper gun or dee Gentha era boats. Meeah a man who only talka da politcos and religion when to stirra the sheeta.

Gotta gooah now and file me worka compensation claim before dee INS getta here. :pimp:

[ratman]

rootsy thx for you post im glad your having great luck and performance with your late model boat. sorry to here you had a problem with your early boat and hadn't heard about them having those types of problems that you had with it.

[joseph m. hahnl]

thats what the bayliner salesman says! seen how outerlimits or doug wright or skater or some of the modern day companies that have owners in control that won't accept second best for the boats they build with thier names on them. thank god skip bought cigarette and not a company with better bean counters then riggers or glass layup guys.


Ratman: I Don't see your point comparing 1/2 a million dollar boats to $12,000 and $25,000 boats . Donzi is making competive go fast boats so that the every day joes can afford them.Yes they are production boats I don't think any body hear said they weren't. What I'm saying is dollar for dollar Donzi makes one of the best quality "production" boats on the market>When i say all manufacturing i'm not just talking boats.I mean all manufacturing where the manufacture is creating products for the masses not just the elite. They cheapen it. 1) so any one can buy it higher sales more profit 2) it breaks so ot will be replaced there fore creating more revenue. 3) they can get a higher profit margin.

Rootsy who also nows about manufacturing, hit it right with availiblity and replacabilty. All of my Rockers are plastic in my 88 Minx I replaced 3 of them for pennys. I replaced all of the idiot lights with Leds and all of the breakers. All these original equipment items where availible locally at the hardware store, Radio shack,and electric supply outlet. It cost me no more than 50 bucks to do it all. so to me 50 bucks for 17 yrs is a bargain.and that extra $150 you paid
well I'll use it for Gas.

joe





joe

[cigarette30]

Gotta add one more thing ........ all the boys with the half million dollar boats, aren't brothers like this group. Seriously, does anyone think they have any more fun, and have 1/2 the pride in their "toys"? Come on guys, where it counts, The Classic fans "Rule" ! ....... and so does the Registry! :wavey:

[gold-n-rod]

Gotta add one more thing ........ all the boys with the half million dollar boats, aren't brothers like this group. Seriously, does anyone think they have any more fun, and have 1/2 the pride in their "toys"? Come on guys, where it counts, The Classic fans "Rule" ! ....... and so does the Registry! :wavey:

I'll second that!!!!! Bottoms up! :beer:

[Ranman]

The only thing choppered on the new boats is the skin coat along with the hatches (engine, cooler, etc.)

Ya know Rat, some of us here actually own and are proud of that cheap crap :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[mattyboy]

does anyone one know how long it takes to get a new classic out the door???
I know how long it took to get my 67 out the door??? would be interested in that answer
I have seen both old ones and news ones, have seen some iffy things done in all eras, but generally the boats hold up well when reasonably cared for
there are pro and cons to all the eras of classics, but definetly no crap

[Formula Jr]

I think there is something to be said about the "quality" of the experience of being in an older boat than a newer one. These are small individual perceptions that add up. Lets divorce this idea from "performance" at first.

For example. There are two 16 sport-skiiers in front of you. Both go 47 mph. One has a triple chrome over brass brightwork thought out, metalic switches, metal badges, thick, mesh screen vents with "donzi" on them and a nice Morse throttle handle with a wooden knob on the end with a Donzi badge on the top. It has thick gel coat that has no print through.

The other has chrome over plastic vents with plastic gaskets underneath, Matt- black plastic controls and dials, and print though on the topsides and deck.

I would rather drive the first boat if both go 47 mph, just on the impression it would give and that everything you see and touch is a delight.

But I wouldn't want this first boat performance-wise - as in speed and handling.

The thump or bang gives this away.

The newer boat goes bang because it is rigid and light. The older one went thump because it was heavy and flexed or it was under powered and couldn't get to hitting waves as fast as the new ones do. You can get old boats to bang, but then things start falling apart structurally.

These little delights, controls and brightwork, could be reintroduced to the new boats with out that much added cost, and updated with LEDS and such, but going back to the old hull constructions and wood stringers and thick gel, doesn't make sense.

Donzi Could do this. The will and market isn't there.

[Marlin275]

You can get old boats to bang, but then things start falling apart structurally.
Could you please explain this?
I have talked to numerous people about this and no-one agrees.
Old fiberglass isn't bad fiberglass, its the wood rot, if anything, that breaks down first.
Have you experienced this personally?
What is it based on?

[Rootsy]

i really think i need to take a short video to show some of ya just how "flimsy" or a better word, flexible, a hull layup is on these classics... i bet for a fact that most people believe those stringers and bulkheads between them hold the hull rigid as a rock... now i am not saying that it's inferior or anything, the old classics have held up well to the power and options available to them at the time... i love these boats, but you wouldn't want to go tossing in modern big power without doing some reenforcing on the old transoms and stringers, that's for sure... to tap the side of my 16 vs the 18... there is a distinct dampening of vibration in the 16... it is laid up heavier than the 18... that is for sure... in almost every regard... but that will not be the case when i finish a bit of reengineering so that it can handle what i am going probably bolt between the stringers and hang off the ass end...

the ONLY thing that holds these hulls together and keeps them from twisting and splintering are the decks... if the joint fails between the deck and hull... say your prayers...

as a bit of a comparison... the bare hull with deck and mattyboy's fuel tank and a few rolls of fiberglass stitchmat in the 18, i can lift the boat's stern right up off of the trailer by myself without any issue... the bow is resting on the trailer just before the rise to the nose...

now take my 16... no drive, most of the interior out, no battery, no engine, exhaust, etc and no fuel... just a hull, fuel tank, deck hardware, trim pump and transom assy pretty much... i can't friggin budge the thing...

take that for what it is worth and then try to tell me that the newer classics are chopper gun cut corner junk...

[Rootsy]

OK, would you go tossing big power in a new hull without doing structural mods, and expect it to hold up in the long run?

big power.. by all means, no... i'd expect it to eventually try to delaminate some things... i just tend to feel that later model boats will handle the same hp a bit better than the earlier boats, structurally, within reason... :banghead: