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Formula Jr
01-07-2006, 12:30 AM
As reported in the Boston Globe this morning, the Bush administration has taken Senator John McCain's anti-torture bill to heart and decided once again, "Separation of powers, schmeparation of powers", adding his own "signing statement" that roughly translates: just like the laws governing domestic wiretaps, he'll ignore the law whenever he sees fit, citing the "ticking time-bomb scenario."

While we fully acknowledge that being confronted by the heady musk of the velvety Kiefer Sutherland would totally compel us to drop dimes on everyone we knew and loved, wethinks that someone in the administration has been watching too much 24. Is defeating a potential ticking timebomb scenario even plausible? By applying the organ known colloquially as "the brain" the answer would be no.

Think about it. If we're a terrorist with the awareness of a ticking timebomb, our response to interrogation is going to line up with where the second hand on the timebomb is. If we're prepared to die for our crazy-ass cause, what does five minutes of genital electrocution between friends matter to us? Besides, the pain of Dick Cheney's global hostels could well be avoided through the magical power of lying. Planning for the contingency in advance, an intelligent enemy of the state could kill many an hour sending officials scrambling on well-conceived wild goose chases.

Hell, to be perfectly honest, if we ever find ourselves confronted with the ticking timebomb scenario and our only way of defusing it is torturing a suspect, all the torturee would have to have at his disposal is a thorough knowledge of recent current events. Such a terrorist could happily avoid torture by telling the gospel truth, knowing full well that the official assigned to carry out the operation is likely to be some incompetent crony ****wad from President Bush's book club. In short, the "ticking timebomb scenario" is the most tortured part of the discussion.

Ohh, and i cut pasted this from an e-mail.
I guess it was from some one smart....

But it was in my e-mail, so naturally it should be reposted here.
just couldn't help me self..... ;)

boxy
01-07-2006, 09:09 AM
:biggrin: :biggrin:

Good Morning Owen.

BUIZILLA
01-07-2006, 09:46 AM
Owen, I think i'm finally tired of your perpetual Bush Bashing rants. I haven't read an intellectual BOATING post from you in the last 2 years.. If your so displeased, then please leave the country at your EARLIEST opportunity. I'm dead serious, you have some issues... I hear India is hiring wayward computer geeks....

Jim

smokediver
01-07-2006, 01:45 PM
holy mackrel poodle .... I read your last post and .... well ..... for us that aren't the sharpest tools in the shed , are you saying that owen is a liberal bonehead ?:smile:

Formula Jr
01-07-2006, 06:45 PM
Any constitutional scholar will tell you that the document reflects a belief that man is born with inalienable Rights. Rights not conveyed by a King or by any other entity but GOD. This superceeds the nationalism of anyone that comes under OUR system of law. We either believe this, or we do not.
This administration, and Congress, are acting in a way, ie, attempting to strip the lower courts of hearing "right to trial petitions," after the Supreme Court ruled that Prisoners in Cuba had a Right to trial.

Are these prisoners bad guys?
Yes, they are. And so what if they are?
If we did believe that Man has this Right, given to him by GOD,
then they would get trials.

And the world would see that we truly believe in what we say we believe in.

You say you want freedom? Then, stop being a scaredy cat.

The most sudicious thing I have heard in my life is the theory that the constitution is not a suicide pack.

Yes it is, even Ben Franklin said it was. And they would have all hung together if a certain fog didn't cover the East River one night. And we can at least be as brave as they were when they got out from under a King's law.

We express that in Law and with Law and not arms or violence.

Ever so slowly we have slipped into a "might is right" attitude. We have ceased selling the idea of freedom in a peaceful, thoughtful manner.

No matter what the pain, we have to get back to that idea. Or what we say we believe in is in serious trouble.

If the media has conviced you that this is Bone Head Liberalism you are lost.

Cuda
01-07-2006, 07:03 PM
Any constitutional scholar will tell you that the document reflects a belief that man is born with inalienable Rights. Rights not conveyed by a King or by any other entity but GOD. This superceeds the nationalism of anyone that comes under OUR system of law. We either believe this, or we do not.
This administration, and Congress, are acting in a way, ie, attempting to strip the lower courts of hearing "right to trial petitions," after the Supreme Court ruled that Prisoners in Cuba had a Right to trial.
Are these prisoners bad guys?
Yes, they are. And so what if they are?
If we did believe that Man has this Right, given to him by GOD,
then they would get trials.
And the world would see that we truly believe in what we say we believe in.
You say you want freedom? Then, stop being a scaredy cat.
The most sudicious thing I have heard in my life is the theory that the constitution is not a suicide pack.
Yes it is, even Ben Franklin said it was. And they would have all hung together if a certain fog didn't cover the East River one night. And we can at least be as brave as they were when they got out from under a King's law.
We express that in Law and with Law and not arms or violence.
Ever so slowly we have slipped into a "might is right" attitude. We have ceased selling the idea of freedom in a peaceful, thoughtful manner.
No matter what the pain, we have to get back to that idea. Or what we say we believe in is in serious trouble.
If the media has conviced you that this is Bone Head Liberalism you are lost.
That is some disjointed rambling. Can you explain the suicide pack, and the fog thing?

gcarter
01-07-2006, 07:31 PM
Owen, I'm no constitutional scholar, but I am a history buf.
And I know there have been MANY instances of the constitution being set aside during war concerning non citizens.
Also they've been upheld by the supreme court.

But I think you're screwy!!:eek:

Formula Jr
01-07-2006, 08:23 PM
I've given you more than enough to google this on your own if you cared to look it up. This is where I don't put my opinion in. You will arrive at your own understanding.

And in the understanding you might just develop critical thought.

It isn't ever easy to be a free thinker.....

Both references are easy to find.

Formula Jr
01-07-2006, 08:35 PM
Gcarter, then that is our past failure.

You either believe that these are the Rights given to man by GOD or you do not.

Which is it?

If you are a history buff, then you know about the East River fog thingy in New York and how it saved Washington's troops.
maybe you can explain that..and its turn of the war nature.

the suicide pack was a talking point in early 2005. Look it up. And concider where it came from.

olredalert
01-07-2006, 11:11 PM
------------That location thing,,,,,"Not around here". I didnt understand it until reading this disjointed rambling of yours. Step away from the bong now,,,,please.........Bill S

Formula Jr
01-07-2006, 11:40 PM
What is bong.....?

Never heard of it... is that a dance or some hip music group?

Please explain..... :)

Don't worry if it was something illegal,

Gonzales and the NSA probably aren't listening......


I'm a nerd. So I don't know what a bong is. :)

http://www.ushistory.org/franklin/quotable/quote04.htm

http://www.slate.com/id/2060342/

http://en.thinkexist.com/quotation/we_must_all_hang_together_or_most_assuredly_we/154964.html

http://travel2.nytimes.com/2005/12/23/travel/escapes/23foot.html?ex=1136869200&en=d43b8888b27de68c&ei=5070

Cuda
01-08-2006, 08:12 AM
Owen, do you have periods of lucidity, or has that East River fog settled permanently in your brain?

BERTRAM BOY
01-08-2006, 10:04 AM
BTW, isn't it "pact"..........

TuxedoPk
01-08-2006, 10:23 AM
BTW, isn't it "pact"..........

Tomato, Tamoto ;)


On a serious note, I did learn something about the Revolutionary War from Googling a topic mentioned in Owen's last link. "More Americans died in British prison ships in New York Harbor than in all the battles of the Revolutionary War." For more info and an interesting read http://www.eastrivernyc.org/ehistory/prison.shtm

Cuda
01-08-2006, 10:34 AM
BTW, isn't it "pact"..........
That's why I was asking what the suicide pack was. Cianide tablets maybe?

Formula Jr
01-08-2006, 01:54 PM
Yes, quite true Cliff, its "pact." Gee, I wonder where I got suicide pack from.

I'm surprised that no one finds this even remotely disturbing.
That the Executive Branch can create and maintain a system of indefinite imprisonment
with really no legal theory or framework.
With virtually no checks and balances.

It doesn't matter if the 520 or so "detainees" are treated well or not.
What many people want to know is what are they.
Are they prisoners of war? War Criminals? Are they terrorists, or
are they suspected terrorists?
What is an enemy combatant's legal status?

Complicating this is how they were rounded up in the first place.
Family members of some of the detainees have said there were bounties paid out
to Afghan tribesmen if they captured and handed over al-Qaida or Taliban fighters.
All we had sometimes was the word of these Afghan tribesmen in the field that the person they were handing
over was a fighter or terrorist in training.


So who are these people really?
Will they ever be charged with anything?
Do we hold them in legal limbo forever, try them, or do we just let
all but a few of them go at the end of this administration's term?

Tony
01-08-2006, 01:58 PM
I read two good books lately, one was "1776" and was an interesting account of all that happened in that infamous year. Another was "The March" by E.L. Doctorow, a fascinating description of General Sherman's march through Georgia and the Carolinas.

Don't let 'em rattle ya', Owen, you may be outnumbered but they don't have you surrounded yet. Plus, they can't call on Abramoff and DeLay for favors, anymore, either! Lots of people love an underdog!

TuxedoPk
01-08-2006, 02:09 PM
I read two good books lately, one was "1776"


The one by David McCullough? I was getting ready to purchase that book- glad to hear it was a good read?

TuxedoPk
01-08-2006, 02:28 PM
Owen- A friendly bit of constructive critisim.

You make some valid points and express important concerns in some of your posts that are completely lost when your posts read as rantings from an extreme left wing/branch davidian type nut job.

Take the time to write more clear posts that express your concerns in simple terms, why a topic is important, and written without the expectation that the reader has any prior subject knowlege. It would also be much easier for us to understand your points if you use some form of segway between topics.

I was less offended by the typo of pack/pact than I was by your total disreguard of a hyphen in your spelling of ****wad :)

Harbormaster- Two suggestions. :D
- We need to impose a limit on the number of syllables words in posts can contain.
- We need to add an integrated dictionary into the board

joseph m. hahnl
01-08-2006, 06:54 PM
OH-Boy: 2 out of 3 . Next he'll be telling us he slept with Hilary.
Alls I have to say ,I do not let the media or the powers that be corrupt my rational thinking. I never ever follow anybody blindly as a lemming would.
I think everybody has a certain degree of passion for politics and religion that is very hard to express in mere words.my self I could care less if JR spelt **** as foock Or fluck. Grammer is not a criteria for talking boats.What I find disturbing is that when any one tries to make a point about anything .It's always the same people who don't like what some one else is saying or disagree and they throw in he spelt this wrong he did not capitalize that ."MY god man you said Pact not crack.
BFD Who really freeken cares I certainly don't.
If grammer is truly the merit that compenticy is based on .Then the current president is a complete moron that can't spell potato. Personally I don't hold that against GWB at all .I look at all of his achievments and all his failures and I way them to measure what Kind of person he truly is.

I am not a Bush fan, but I as an American I Respect him for what and who he is . I may not totally agree with his politics but his idioligy is honorable.
Whether or not his morals are in the best intrest of this country still remains to be seen.


joe

Ps: if I spelt anything wrong please excuse my ignorance
The editor for the New York Times was busy editing the next issue of Hustler.

Cuda
01-08-2006, 08:17 PM
Grammer is not a criteria for talking boats.What I find disturbing is that when any one tries to make a point about anything .It's always the same people who don't like what some one else is saying or disagree and they throw in he spelt this wrong he did not capitalize that
On the contrary, if someone is trying to pass themselves off as some sort of psuedo intellectual, should be able to spell correctly. By the way, misspelling is not grammer.

By the way, I don't know if you did it on purpose, but the word is "spelled" wrong.

dfunde01
01-08-2006, 08:42 PM
If you were given a bumper sticker that said "Run Hillary Run" would you put it on your front or back bumper?

RedDog
01-08-2006, 08:52 PM
1) Hold 'em forever - let them go and they will try to kill us. They are not criminals but are extremists

2) 1776 was a great read

3) Im working on "Team of Rivals" biograpghy of A Lincoln now. Early in the book but also very good

RedDog
01-08-2006, 08:55 PM
Nuke em, nuke em all.....

Scary, but that may well be our best choice regarding Iran. A confrontation is coming - no avoiding it unless the sane moderates overthrow the current government

TuxedoPk
01-08-2006, 09:04 PM
Joe- The smiley face at the end of my pack/pact/hyphen comment should have been the tell tale sign that I was making the comment in jest, not in a serious or attacking way.

Most of us have an incorrect spelling or typo every so often in one of our posts. A few have been know to leave their participles dangling. But some of the posts have such poor grammer that they make reading them more difficult for the rest of us.

It's nice when people:
- Don't put extra spaces before periods that end sentences
- Do use two spaces after a period before starting the next sentence
(Note: There is a problem with the board software that removes the second space. I put two spaces after
the period following dangling but it only displays as one space when you save the post)
- Do use the word All instead of Alls
- Do use capital letters as the first word of a sentence
- Only use periods at the end of sentences, not in the middle of them.
- Capitalize the letter S when abbreviating the word "postscript"

"If grammer is truly the merit that compenticy is based on .Then the current president is a complete moron that can't spell potato."
- I wan't this on a t-shirt!

*Joe- While I'm deliberately ragging on you for giving me sh$t in this post I am doing it for fun and not any with any malice or feelings of ill will towards you.

I didn't understand your comment about the lemmings. What were you referring to when you made that statement?

Formula Jr
01-09-2006, 06:49 AM
Since our next affair will be with Iran, may I suggest a good winter read:
"All the Shah's Men," by Stephen Kinzer.

I cut and pasted the first article. I didn't edit it.

Tux, thank you for the review. It is constructive as was Cliff pointing out I was using a subconscience association:
Too much in my little head at one time to clearly lay it all out.

That happens too often these days if I've followed the news cycle 24/7 for a couple of days..
Last month was a big one, with a geat deal of content and a hard one to think through.

Now I have.

Since the wandering post of our basic reason for being in Iraq is now the establishment of a democracy, then that is the idea for which our troops are being put in harms way. The reasons can adapt, and that is what we have been led to believe, from WMD to projects of WMD, to the reconstuction of projects of WMD.

But if we torture people, render them, mess with the free press, hold them with out any right to trial, and we can spy on us internally with out warrant; then what are these kids and men doing there and getting shot at for? I know the answer to that. That people of true and stronge hearts wish to help their buddies and friends in the field.

That is a military understanding.

There also has to be a civil understanding. That the idea we wish to sell is pure. Or as pure as it can get. We are doing everything now to counter that idea. And people in Iraq are in the middle. Ours and theirs.

Lets get it right here first.

owen.

RedDog
01-09-2006, 06:51 AM
J
- Do use two spaces after a period before starting the next sentence
(Note: There is a problem with the board software that removes the second space. I put two spaces after
the period following dangling but it only displays as one space when you save the post)
-
With the use of proportional fonts w/ computer word processing software, modern style guides indicate that only 1 space should be used following a period. I'm not sure that this is a proportional font, but when preparing a technical report for a client I intentionaly use only 1 space.

BERTRAM BOY
01-09-2006, 09:11 AM
Tux, thank you for the review. It is constructive as was Cliff pointing out I was using a subconscience association:

Owen, I 'm glad you got it. I wasn't pointing out a misspelling (or was I).
When having any political discussion, "pac" has significant meaning.

Rich, excellent advice. It's very difficult to extrapolate someone's ideas when they have frequent misspellings, run on sentences, and incorrect grammar usage.

BERTRAM BOY

mattyboy
01-09-2006, 10:14 AM
Rich, excellent advice. It's very difficult to extrapolate someones ideas when they have frequent misspellings, run on sentences, and incorrect grammar usage.
BERTRAM BOY

egstrapolate this ;)
hay-yo-whada@#$^ does that mean ru infuurin sum of hour englesh ain't what itz kracked up to be?? I dink u shood sitdonnashudddup, da constitooshun sayz we ain't even got to use engleesh as a langwich, and i dink it also sayz sumwhere dat evryone including dem friggin illeegal aliens and terrorist bastages have more rights dan us da peepole dat liv here,well i say giv dem sum rights and a fue lefts , badda bing badda boom wit a friggin rubba hose, I say make em an offa they can't refuze

BTW I ain't no medical doctor but if u r havin problems gee whizzing u might have an alarged probate band

;)

joseph m. hahnl
01-09-2006, 02:15 PM
Joe- The smiley face at the end of my pack/pact/hyphen comment should have been the tell tale sign that I was making the comment in jest, not in a serious or attacking way.

I didn't understand your comment about the lemmings. What were you referring to when you made that statement?


Tux: Yes I know you were rubbing in a friendly manner.:beer:
What I meant by lemmings is some people will follow authority blindly.

I respect every ones opinion here. Regardless if they are a ranting lunitic with way to much time on there hands.

HEY How about them Donzi's??????????????????

joe

mattyboy
01-09-2006, 02:22 PM
Tux: Yes I know you were rubbing in a friendly manner.:beer:
joe

:eek: hey remember guys this is a family forum :p :rlol:

Blewbyu
01-09-2006, 04:22 PM
That would be "lunatic", would it not?




hehehehehehehehehe...............

MrsDigger
01-10-2006, 01:06 PM
I would like to point out that it was Dan Quayle who had issues spelling "potatoes." Liberals vilify Bush for mispronouncing "nuclear." Just a quick clarification.

With regard to using limited forms of torture in an effort to elicit information from terrorists who want to fly airplanes into buildings or blow up subways, I support it. However, I think many people are confused about what consititues torture, since the McCain amendment regards sleep deprivation or verbal abuse as "torture."

Further, I absolutely support the NSA gathering information (i.e. filtering "chatter") both at home and abroad. I believe it is well within a president's executive powers to take such measures to protect the homeland. In my opinion, if you communicate with al Qaeda in an effort to bring about the murder of Americans, you have no rights. You are the enemy and you should be eliminated.

TuxedoPk
01-10-2006, 01:34 PM
I don't think anyone has vilified Bush for his for mispronouncing "nuclear." Sure it makes for some good clean fun like listening to Dan Quayle or Yogi Berra speak. Those who have vilified Bush, rightly or wrongly, have done so over larger issues such as Iraq, the economy, Harriet Meyers, his loss of the United State's goodwill following 9/11, etc.

You state that many people are confused about what constitutes torture and your support of limitted forms of torture. What types of 'torture' do you believe should be allowed and should not be allowed? Personally I am against anything that rises to the level of 'torture' but we may share common ground on what should not be considered 'torture'.

NSA information gathering- There is a fine line here and I haven't formed an opinion yet as to whether the president was being prudent and excercising his executive powers or whether he overstepped his bounds.

"In my opinion, if you communicate with al Qaeda in an effort to bring about the murder of Americans, you have no rights."

-Ok, finally the first statement of the New Year I can disagree with you on. Criminals who are found guilty of the most heinous crimes are extended certain rights under our laws. Someone accused and not even yet found guilty of a crime should have at least equal rights.

(I'm not suggesting that we extend resort like facilities to these individuals, but the United States, or any nation, should not participate in depriving them of the basic human rights granted to them by our maker)

Cuda
01-10-2006, 03:21 PM
his loss of the United State's goodwill following 9/11
)
Let me tell you something, the United States goodwill was the least of my concerns following 9/11. I was MUCH more concerned with the United State's safety. I still am.

TuxedoPk
01-10-2006, 03:32 PM
Let me tell you something, the United States goodwill was the least of my concerns following 9/11. I was MUCH more concerned with the United State's safety. I still am.

-Joe, my post is dead on accurate when it states rightly or wrongly that is one of the reason's Bush is vilified- not his inability to speak.

I'm concerned about our safety also. I watched the towers burning live from across the river in a NJ highrise. I knew people who died in the tragedy.

As for my own personal opinion, I do believe whether or not we went to war with Iraq, better diplomacy should have been taken. A true statesman could have marched right into Bagdad and had the world along side us.

TuxedoPk
01-10-2006, 03:41 PM
Sometimes a little patience can payoff.

-An old bull and a young bull were standing atop a hill gazing upon a herd of cows in the valley below.

The young bull turns to the old bull and says, "Why don't we run down the hill as fast as we can and f*ck one of the cows?"

The old bull replies, "No. We should tip toe down the hillside and f*ck all of the cows!"

Ok, maybe it's not the best story to use to demonstrate a little more patience and diplomacy with Iraq, but it was the best segway to tell this story I had :)

Schnook
01-10-2006, 04:16 PM
Wow, I wish I'd been following this thread from the start. Lucky for all y'all (that's plural for y'all) I'm here to save you. Vote for me and I'll institute a four day weekend, then we'll invade Canada and take their beer.:beer:
On a serious note, I agree that all citizens of this planet should be accorded the inalienable rights granted by God and set forth in our constitution. Here's where I think the true debate lies:
The terrorists elements we are facing want nothing to do with our God, or any rights he has granted. They are vowed to exterminate any and all traces of our culture and beliefs in favor of their own. Does this or does this not exclude them from consideration for protection by our legal system, be it here or abroad? Would it be akin to purchasing Mr. Oswald a rifle even though you knew his intentions? My feeling on the matter is this nation will not survive strictly on diplomacy - nor will it survive strictly on military might. Both are equally vital foreign policy tools.
President Bush has experienced one of the most difficult times any President has had to face, and though he may or may not have handled situations as adeptly as could be, at least he had the sack to do something. As for torture, look at history (we're all addicted to the History Channel) war and conflict have never been pretty, fair, humane, or decent. Ask any veteran. Yes, we can go too far, but do we tie the hands of our security apparatus and then expect them to protect us? Thank you for your support.

gcarter
01-10-2006, 06:34 PM
Rich and Owen, I think you're both off the reservation!!!
If you haven't noticed, there is NO goodwill with Europe concerning the Middle East, nor will there be.
All you have to do is look at all the money that went into Europe's and Russia's pockets and you'll see why.
(A side note, look at what's happening now in Iran concerning uranium enrichment, Europe, Russia, and China will NEVER vote for a strict boycott of trade with Iran like they did with South Africa, because of oil and trade. Ultimately, Iran will be allowed to develop nuclear weapons because these parties want Iran's oil.)
Now if you understand these things about middle Eastern rogue nations, that they can and will do what they want regardless the rule of law, the USA has to step up and take responsibility, unilaterally if need be. These countries and militias MUST be stopped while we still have a nation and constitution.
No one else will, nor is there a will to do so.
There had to be a decision made, and our president did it, and I'm glad.

Lenny
01-10-2006, 07:52 PM
George, if you "guys" ever need our help, just say the word. We will send all three Helicopters, both ships, and the two F-16's that are still running :D
:canada: :canada: :canada:

http://www.donzi.net/ubb/graemlins/cistinebiggrinA.gif

P.S. If problems arise between November and April, most of us will be in Florida already so just give us a call. ;)

gcarter
01-10-2006, 08:02 PM
P.S. If problems arise between November and April, most of us will be in Florida already so just give us a call. ;)
Yeah Lenny, the highways are already clogged w/ cars equipped w/ Ontario and Quebec tags!!
.
.
.
But you're always welcome!
(not Owen & Rich)

Schnook
01-10-2006, 09:16 PM
Soooooo, while you're all in FLA, who's watching the beer?:idea:

TuxedoPk
01-10-2006, 11:08 PM
George- First, don't lump me with Owen whose thoughts and beliefs differ from mine. Second, if your line of thinking that everything is being handled pretty much as well as it can be then I'm happy to have you on the reservation :)

The fact that you point out there is NO goodwill with Europe is my point. This didn't have to be the case in spite of many of the valid points you have made concerning money and oil.

The point you make about having to step up and take unilateral action makes sense- but as a last resort not as a first step. The United States didn't have its back up against the wall when it invaded Iraq. The United States wasn't under any imminent peril from Iraq when it launched its invasion. I'd have been the first to support going to war if this had been the case. But the simple matter was that there was time for diplomacy with other nations to build a stronger coalition that might have avoided the war, or at least brought us more allies in the war.

Do you honestly feel any safer today after invading Iraq than on 9/12? I feel more at risk.

"There had to be a decision made, and our president did it, and I'm glad."
-I'm glad he made a decision also. I just would have been happier if he had made a better decision even if it meant going to war. (Considering the 'almost non-existant risk' that Iraq posed to the United States, how many more American service men and women would still have their lives and limbs if we hadn't jumped the gun and planned ahead and taken little steps like providing the type of personal and vehicle protection necessary)

TuxedoPk
01-10-2006, 11:21 PM
On a serious note, I agree that all citizens of this planet should be accorded the inalienable rights granted by God and set forth in our constitution. Here's where I think the true debate lies:
The terrorists elements we are facing want nothing to do with our God, or any rights he has granted. They are vowed to exterminate any and all traces of our culture and beliefs in favor of their own. Does this or does this not exclude them from consideration for protection by our legal system, be it here or abroad? Would it be akin to purchasing Mr. Oswald a rifle even though you knew his intentions? My feeling on the matter is this nation will not survive strictly on diplomacy - nor will it survive strictly on military might. Both are equally vital foreign policy tools.


Whether terrorists believe in 'our' God or not does not grant or remove any inalienable rights granted by God nor give any nation the moral ability to deny them those rights.

I don't see the analogy with purchasing Oswald a gun knowing his intentions. The better analogy would be if stopping Oswald was enough or did Oswald need to be tortured? Nobody on this board has ever expressed the suggestion that suspect terrorists should be set free to roam the streets. But if we detain a suspect on the believe that they are terrorists or supporters of terrorist activity then they deserve to be tried for a crime and not be subject to torture.

Surely we should have learned a lesson from the way we treated Japanese Americans durign WWII.

I'm with you that diplomacy alone is unfortuneately not always a solution. But, I do believe that better diplomacy will reduce the number of military conflicts and casualties the world must endure.

MrsDigger
01-11-2006, 05:17 AM
*ahem* Did anyone notice that I managed to avoid all political comments during the holiday season???

:beer:

MrsDigger
01-11-2006, 06:06 AM
I don't think "Lee-Jackson Day" is a real holiday...yep, the holidays are over...

TuxedoPk
01-11-2006, 06:22 AM
Let's make a 'pack' not to go at it again like in 2005 :wink:

Schnook
01-11-2006, 06:52 AM
Whether terrorists believe in 'our' God or not does not grant or remove any inalienable rights granted by God nor give any nation the moral ability to deny them those rights.
I don't see the analogy with purchasing Oswald a gun knowing his intentions. The better analogy would be if stopping Oswald was enough or did Oswald need to be tortured? Nobody on this board has ever expressed the suggestion that suspect terrorists should be set free to roam the streets. But if we detain a suspect on the believe that they are terrorists or supporters of terrorist activity then they deserve to be tried for a crime and not be subject to torture.
Surely we should have learned a lesson from the way we treated Japanese Americans durign WWII.
I'm with you that diplomacy alone is unfortuneately not always a solution. But, I do believe that better diplomacy will reduce the number of military conflicts and casualties the world must endure.
Allow me to clarify. Why would you provide Oswald with the tools to kill President Kennedy if you knew that's what he was going to do?
Why would you grant terrorists the protections and rights of our country when you know their goal is to destroy those very rights, those very protections and this country? We must do all we can to remain the most just and fair country in the world, but to apply our rights and freedoms to all, even those who would use those rights and freedoms to destroy us? Pure folly. Thinking we can strictly adhere to a set of 'rules of engagement' that hamstring our ability to fight this war and win is foolhardy. This is a war, not the criminal justice system. Undermining the fabric of our country so we feel like we treated everyone fairly is not the way to stay free.
BTW - The reason you feel less safe now than pre-9/11 is because now you're aware there's a threat. The danger to our country hasn't changed, but at least we're doing something about it now.

MOP
01-11-2006, 10:08 AM
CIVILIZED Actions!

This can be debated in many ways but is there a civilized answer, the problem that most just fail to understand is the nature of the problem. If you follow the news closely it is more of a spreading cancer then a war with a rational enemy. The was a very good explanation of what is snow balling in many countries since the breaking up of Bin Laden's network, long before 9/11 Bin Laden was being sought but missed due to blunders and political issues. But since 9/11 it is obvious how much it has been stepped up, this has lead to communication disruption and finance issues for Bin Laden's network. The terrorist groups have not and will not just go away or slow down due to the disruptions, they now pursue their own agendas. The US and the other civilized nations can not watch and gather information to stop so many with their hands tied. The talk of torture sets everyone of us back in their seats saying "Oh Not Us"! But I think we need to open our minds to the nature of the killers at hand. Do they torture, do they be head, do they distinguish between military and civilians when they kill??? This in not an army this is like stated by the special on Bin Laden it is a CANCER! Do you not think the seeds of our possible destruction are not planted here at home? One Arabic political analyst put it this way an army you can fight a mass of sick minds is far more difficult and our of the realm of our thoughts. He went on to say they will not fight a war with civilization but cause "Death by the pricks of a 1000 needles". Those of you that do not think we as civilized people should cross the LINE, I feel will aid them in their quest. I mentioned the seeds planted here at home, some will remember the sudden influx of immigrants from the mid eastern nations after the Gulf War. How many of you took the time to speak with them or did you just ignored them as most did, me I love to chat with people from other places. What bothered me was how many spoke eloquent English and had the hands of a doctor but said they worked at farming or other menial tasks at home. It bothered me enough to ask the owners of several stores and gas stations what they thought, most shrugged it off some like me wondered. Since 9/11 we have uncovered a lot right here at home and I think we have only scratched the surface, it is not a time for denial but a time for even increased action. Do you really feel that people of this mind set deserve the rights of the civilized, think real hard your life may depend on it. Think about the fact that we fight to live they fight to die!

Phil

TuxedoPk
01-11-2006, 11:26 AM
"Why would you grant terrorists the protections and rights of our country when you know their goal is to destroy those very rights, those very protections and this country? We must do all we can to remain the most just and fair country in the world, but to apply our rights and freedoms to all, even those who would use those rights and freedoms to destroy us? Pure folly. "

-We are not granting anyone protections and rights. I'm advocating not taking away their god given rights as humans. I'm all in favor of capturing suspected terrorists, putting them on trial, and incarcerating them if found guilty. I'm not in favor of incarceration without trial and torture (w/o a debate on what does or doesn't constitute torture)

-Serial killers, rapists, pedaphiles... they are all scum that need to be removed from the street but yet one of the things that makes this country great is that we have a civilized way of prosecuting and dealing with them in a humane way.

"Thinking we can strictly adhere to a set of 'rules of engagement' that hamstring our ability to fight this war and win is foolhardy. This is a war, not the criminal justice system. Undermining the fabric of our country so we feel like we treated everyone fairly is not the way to stay free."

-What nation are we at war with? I beg to differ, this is more like trying to take control from gangs than being at war.
-Declaring that our values and rights do not hold up under adversity is undermining the fabric of our country.
-It is not important that we 'feel' like we've treated everyone fairly- it is important that we treat everyone the way a human should be treated. Your philosophy is the same philosophy for imprisoning Japanese Americans in WWII- something I think we all agree in retrospect was a mistake.


"The danger to our country hasn't changed, but at least we're doing something about it now."
-Before going to war with Iraq there existed anti-american terrorists like bin Ladin. Since going to war there seems to be a much greater anti-american movement coming from the middle east. Our approach has been successful at removing some terrorists while increasing the number of new terrorist recruits. We feel less safe today than 9/12/01 because we are less safe.

TuxedoPk
01-11-2006, 11:32 AM
-Do make use of paragraphs and blank lines :wink:



CIVILIZED Actions!
This can be debated in many ways but is there a civilized answer, the problem that most just fail to understand is the nature of the problem. If you follow the news closely it is more of a spreading cancer then a war with a rational enemy. The was a very good explanation of what is snow balling in many countries since the breaking up of Bin Laden's network, long before 9/11 Bin Laden was being sought but missed due to blunders and political issues. But since 9/11 it is obvious how much it has been stepped up, this has lead to communication disruption and finance issues for Bin Laden's network. The terrorist groups have not and will not just go away or slow down due to the disruptions, they now pursue their own agendas. The US and the other civilized nations can not watch and gather information to stop so many with their hands tied. The talk of torture sets everyone of us back in their seats saying "Oh Not Us"! But I think we need to open our minds to the nature of the killers at hand. Do they torture, do they be head, do they distinguish between military and civilians when they kill??? This in not an army this is like stated by the special on Bin Laden it is a CANCER! Do you not think the seeds of our possible destruction are not planted here at home? One Arabic political analyst put it this way an army you can fight a mass of sick minds is far more difficult and our of the realm of our thoughts. He went on to say they will not fight a war with civilization but cause "Death by the pricks of a 1000 needles". Those of you that do not think we as civilized people should cross the LINE, I feel will aid them in their quest. I mentioned the seeds planted here at home, some will remember the sudden influx of immigrants from the mid eastern nations after the Gulf War. How many of you took the time to speak with them or did you just ignored them as most did, me I love to chat with people from other places. What bothered me was how many spoke eloquent English and had the hands of a doctor but said they worked at farming or other menial tasks at home. It bothered me enough to ask the owners of several stores and gas stations what they thought, most shrugged it off some like me wondered. Since 9/11 we have uncovered a lot right here at home and I think we have only scratched the surface, it is not a time for denial but a time for even increased action. Do you really feel that people of this mind set deserve the rights of the civilized, think real hard your life may depend on it. Think about the fact that we fight to live they fight to die!
Phil

mattyboy
01-11-2006, 11:52 AM
people who can think that flying a plane full of innocent people into a bdlg of innocent people and killing as many as possible as some kind of justified act in the eyes of their god and will be rewared
WILL NOT UNDERSTAND STATESMAN SHIP
WHAT THEY WILL UNDERSTAND
is an aid raid siren, a bright light in the distance , and a warm fuzzy feeling for a few nanoseconds
well if they are a cancer just think of it as kemotherapy

Schnook
01-11-2006, 12:06 PM
"The danger to our country hasn't changed, but at least we're doing something about it now."
-Before going to war with Iraq there existed anti-american terrorists like bin Ladin. Since going to war there seems to be a much greater anti-american movement coming from the middle east. Our approach has been successful at removing some terrorists while increasing the number of new terrorist recruits. We feel less safe today than 9/12/01 because we are less safe.
If we are less safe, how many direct attacks on American interests since 9-11? Does the anti-American sentiment 'seem' much greater now because it is nearly always the lead story on the news? Don't think that since you didn't hear about it before, it wasn't there.

Formula Jr
01-12-2006, 05:03 AM
Then we agree that people should not shop at walmart? Why are there so many containers left over here and we can't get rid of them.... The worn out ones that china doesn't want any more?


My door is open. To Anyone.....

I'm not afraid of anyone's beliefs. Face to face or other wise. Drink your beer and talk to me. My beliefs are not so delicate that I would not welcome a traveler into my home. This person shares my love of running fast over waves.

That is enough.

When some one makes a tiff, a cut and paste, or just a link to some political thought that they ascribe to, then you have to know some one will make a taff. A zigg and a zagg.

I pleaded before not to get us into Zigg and Zagg. That was broken over and over again during the elections. I didn't break that. So some people thought it was oky, and it was for them. I still held to a promise.
Other people dropped completely out of this place becuse they felt the same.

Then it kept being broken, then lets have the free for all if no one cares..

My point, in the very beginning of this, is, Don't cut and paste some opinion you agree with. Write out your own. If you have your own then write it.

Cause I can cut and paste just as well as any one else.

Cuda
01-12-2006, 07:40 AM
Then we agree that people should not shop at walmart? Why are there so many containers left over here and we can't get rid of them.... The worn out ones that china doesn't want any more?
My door is open. To Anyone.....
I'm not afraid of anyone's beliefs. Face to face or other wise. Drink your beer and talk to me. My beliefs are not so delicate that I would not welcome a traveler into my home. This person shares my love of running fast over waves.
That is enough.
When some one makes a tiff, a cut and paste, or just a link to some political thought that they ascribe to, then you have to know some one will make a taff. A zigg and a zagg.
I pleaded before not to get us into Zigg and Zagg. That was broken over and over again during the elections. I didn't break that. So some people thought it was oky, and it was for them. I still held to a promise.
Other people dropped completely out of this place becuse they felt the same.
Then it kept being broken, then lets have the free for all if no one cares..
My point, in the very beginning of this, is, Don't cut and paste some opinion you agree with. Write out your own. If you have your own then write it.
Cause I can cut and paste just as well as any one else.

Huh????????:boggled: :boggled:

Is it just me, or can someone explain what Walmart has to do with the gist of this thread?

Formula Jr
01-12-2006, 08:35 AM
You don't get it. There is no Gist to this thread. Or meaning, You vote democratic next time or you are a piece of ......


art........



enjoy....

Owen.

pmreed
01-12-2006, 08:41 AM
I don't agree not to shop at Walmart; I shop there regularly. The only problem is the clientele. It's mostly lowlifes like me, saving money.

As far as containers go, I did buy a plastic one at Walmart a couple of years ago to store whole corn for the birds that come to my porch. My latest containers came from Uline, a bunch of cardboard boxes to store my DVD collection, a lot of which were purchased at Walmart. If you're talking about those great, big, ole shipping containers that cross the ocean et al, there aren't any in my neighborhood from China or wherever.

And, No; I didn't hijack this thread; the original poster opened up the Walmart can-o-worms:smile: .

Phil

TuxedoPk
01-12-2006, 08:49 AM
Huh????????:boggled: :boggled:
Is it just me, or can someone explain what Walmart has to do with the gist of this thread?

Joe-LOL. I woke up and read this with my eyes still half shut and went back to sleep thinking I might be able to make sense of it when I was fully awake. Glad I wasn't alone.

Rootsy
01-12-2006, 09:08 AM
personally i think i am now dumber for actually having taken the time to read most of this babbling... i do believe the resin fumes are actually better for me... :bonk:

JR - crap i forgot to capitalize my i's... uh oh was i supposed to use an apostraphe after the i? did i spell apostraphe correctly?

Formula Jr
01-14-2006, 11:15 AM
An how about that Aleto guy? and Row/Wade?

and Iran and its atomic program?

or that we haven't found Osama yet?

Or that everyone's pension will be turned over to the tax payers.

And isn't it grand that the dow had a bump (good?), on the news that GM was firing thousands of people in what we now call cost cutting.

Or that hammer guy, or top gun Cuddingham with his wire? Oh my!

Cut and paste kids. Everything you think, is all there waiting to be
"presented to us," better than you could ever write. As if we didn't know it already. And have to fight the crap thats in these "reports"


Let everyone else BE the discussion. Like TV. And we can quip about it but yet have no personal content.

This is the Web. What you type or link goes out to the world. Where we could for once make it our own .... Our own lives known. This is the thinking of an OLD person in computers that has seen it change. It slips away daily......
Back into the top five media outlets of opinion every time some one just drops an opinion link on us with no personal content.

Its becomming a war of links.

And we are nothing but proxies.



Your zen moment for the day.

BUIZILLA
01-14-2006, 11:37 AM
uhhh Owen...

Alito is spelled this way.. :lifeprese

Roe is spelled this way... :lifeprese

Atomic isn't really the same as nuclear... or is it?? :nuke:

Dow is always capitalized...

Your location in your profile, sums it all up for ya < not around here > boy, is that obvious. What exact planet is it that your from? ;)

JH

TuxedoPk
01-14-2006, 12:13 PM
BUIZILLA- Thanks for keeping up the English standards on the board:yes:

"Or that hammer guy" - What does MC Hammer have to do with this?
Who are you saying is "too legit to quit"?

"This is the Web. What you type or link goes out to the world. Were we could for once make it our own .... Our own lives known. This is the thinking of an OLD person in computers that has seen it change. It slips away daily...."

- I have no idea what this means but I haven't heard anything this inspiring since I last watched Mel Gibson in Braveheart!

Schnook
01-14-2006, 12:23 PM
As long as no one goes 'nukuler' on me, I'm good.
By the way, did you know space is the final frontier?