when is a classic not a classic

[mattyboy]

ok let's start the winter debates, with the introduction of the AE and GT edition 22's I ponder the question If Donzi were to stretch the classic hull to say a 24-26 footer and incorporate newer hull design features strakes ,pad, steps all concealed when not on plane, and in stretching it with new construction ideas and materials built it in a manner that a small cuddy and stand up bolsters could be used but not changing the lines of of a classic as we know it as it sat at the dock

would it still be a classic??? or would you have something else

[BERTRAM BOY]

I know I'm going to be "tarred and feathered" for blasphemy and heresy, but .......Matty, have you looked at Kryptonite and/or Activator? They both build 27 ft single engine/single step boats.

BERTRAM BOY :cool!: :cool!: :cool!:

[boxy]

ok let's start the winter debates, with the introduction of the AE and GT edition 22's I ponder the question If Donzi were to stretch the classic hull to say a 24-26 footer and incorporate newer hull design features strakes ,pad, steps all concealed when not on plane, and in stretching it with new construction ideas and materials built it in a manner that a small cuddy and stand up bolsters could be used but not changing the lines of of a classic as we know it as it sat at the dock
would it still be a classic??? or would you have something else

You wouldn't have a classic, you'd have a 26 ZR ........ :D :D

This post may self destruct at any moment.

[Cuda]

You wouldn't have a classic, you'd have a 26 ZR ........ :D :D
This post may self destruct at any moment.
I agree 100%. The cuddy makes it not a Classic.

[mattyboy]

I know I'm going to be "tarred and feathered" for blasphemy and heresy, but .......Matty, have you looked at Kryptonite and/or Activator? They both build 27 ft single engine/single step boats.
BERTRAM BOY :cool!: :cool!: :cool!:


i have to stay away from krypotonite for personal reason if ya know what I mean ;)
yes there are some very cool boats out there in that size range from several mfg's


I guess the discussion I was after is any change to a classic hull makes it not a classic if say hypothetically a pad was added giving a 22gt 5 more mph on stock power??? or does it have to be more dramatic like adding a step to take it out of being a classic, how far can one go before a classic is not a classic, could the spitfire have been called a 24 classic???


Boxy I did mean to put zx/zr on the question but forgot the zr and now can't find a way to edit the questions

[BERTRAM BOY]

I have to agree with Cuda on this one. I would say that if it has a flat deck, it could be considered a classic.

[mattyboy]

so the hull could have any number of pads steps strakes notches?? it's just the deck line????so if the boat is stretched to 26 feet and the hull is proportional increased here and there and a small cabin was added not to effect the deck lines not a classic??? 4 feet is an 18% increase in length if that was carried out thru out the design the cockpit would be 18% wider deeper and some new wave low profile carbon fiber super strong stringers were used to get the cabin in there it would stop being a classic???
surely some one out there has the ultimate definitive definition of a classic???
sorry the cabin theory doesn't cut it ;)
come on let's hear it and I'll pass on the style , the sound and the mystique that is donzi , we know that already

[McGary911]

Big NO from me.

I'd say adding length does not "ulclassicize" a classic. But the bottom needs to be pad free, step free, and maintain a 24^ deadrise. The deck needs to stay the same, as well as the freeboard. A streched (25-26') classic would be cool.....it would have that long bow look, kinda like a CritII which is a good thing. It would make the Classic more suited for some bigger water, I would think.

As for modern layup and materials, the more the better....they don't affect the look.

As for a windshield..........I won't start problems :biggrin:

BTW, the new "in thread" edit feature is cool as hell :)

[Cuda]

I'm with McGary here, it cannot have steps, pads, or other gimiks on the bottom. It must be a true 24 degree deep vee. Also, like I said, a cuddy automatically unclassicizies it. (I like that term McGary :) )

[Cuda]

Matty, your percentage theory doesn't hold up. I have a 20 foot Formula with an eight foot beam. With your theory, a 38 foot Formula would have a 15.2 foot beam. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[gcarter]

If I remember correctly, the 22 came some time after the other "Classics", so why not?
Nor do I mind a modified bottom. It's the deck arrangement, mostly, that makes a classic.
A stepped 26' Classic would not be a 26ZX, as the deck configuration is different. After all, the deck is what you see.

[mattyboy]

so any boat that doesn't have a 24 degree deadrise can't be a classic???
does it have to be a rounded keel or can it be a true V , does it need to have a certain number or length of strakes ??? a 26 foot V with seating for 5 no freeboard limited storage and a ski locker??? built to handle big water???

cuda going from 20 to the 38 is not an 18% increase that's a 90% increase my point was make it a lil wider make it deeper keep the proportions from the nose to the start of the cockpit and the end of the cockpit to the start of the rear hatch not just making the nose longer

[boxy]

Nor do I mind a modified bottom.

I'm with Ol' George on this one... modified top or bottom is okay by me... :D

Now as far as boats go....
Matty posted "a 26 foot V with seating for 5 no freeboard and a ski locker??? built to handle big water??? "
If that is a classic then I guess the ZR Comp could be called a Classic. Seats five, sit down boat, flat deck, no cabin.... or if you order the ZR's in the Poker Run version, you get a very basic cabin, no real creature comforts, more like you upholstered the bow storage area, so I guess they could be Classics. We are talking big C Classics right, not little c classics ??

[Greg K]

This is a 24'...deck not as flat as some would like to see, no cuddy and is a sit down and has 24 degree deadrise...

[Craig S]

We are talking big C Classics right, not little c classics ??

little "c" classics would be pretty old about now.

[Greg K]

And what about the 27 Cig/Squadron, the same era as when the 22 Classic debuted.
Sit down, no cuddy, and flat deck.

[BERTRAM BOY]

Definetly no step.....Maybe a pad. Doesn't the Hornet have a 19 degree V?

Which leads to another debate, which other/older models would be considered classics?

[blackhawk]

If I remember correctly, the 22 came some time after the other "Classics", so why not?
Nor do I mind a modified bottom. It's the deck arrangement, mostly, that makes a classic.
A stepped 26' Classic would not be a 26ZX, as the deck configuration is different. After all, the deck is what you see.

I agree, old school lines is what makes a classic look like a classic IMO. Not pads, steps or cuddies. Donzi Classics, Pantera, Superboat, Bannana, P&D, Magnum, etc, etc have the old school tuff looking lines and the classic look. My $.02.

[joseph m. hahnl]

I Think the classic is defined by the hull style more than deck line. I would consider it a classic 24' or 26' even if there was a V berth in the front instead of a ski locker.
So long as it follows the same continuity as the smaller models.

joe

PS" is my minx considered to be a classic?

I would say yes it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[blackhawk]

This is a 24'...deck not as flat as some would like to see, no cuddy and is a sit down and has 24 degree deadrise...

Perfect example. 7' beam, 24' long, sit downs and no cuddy. However NOT a classic look IMO. Smoother, more rounded lines with modern styling. The Adrenaline is a bad-azz boat but not a "classic look" IMO.

[Cuda]

PS" is my minx considered to be a classic?
I would say yes it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
I think our Minx's are neither beast, nor fowl. :(

However, with the above criteria, it is a Classic. :)

[mattyboy]

well now that we have a definition of a classic , a 24 degree hull no gimicks
sleek low deck lines low freeboard no cabins
let's see what a classic is NOT

non conforming tops different deck lines or top side deck treatments

corsican
x18
baby 14
21 gt
benchseat hornet
criterions all of them
f 22
minx
7 meter
sportsman
any Z boat
ae or gt 22's hood scoop

non conforming bottoms steps pads or other gimicks
hornet 2+3 19 degree deadrise
16 with hook all of them
22 bh hulls with rocker
any stepped z/zx/zr boat


so what does that leave you the 18 barrelbacks and 18 2+3's and the non ae or gt non rockered 22 hulls also an argument can be made for the 24 spitfire under those criteria

somehow I don't think we got the right definition yet ;)

to clarify we are talking Donzi Classic not "classic" powerboats

[gcarter]

A couple of things;
1) I believe a Minx is a classic because of the era of production and Donzi ownership. Maybe a few others would qualify also.
2) IMHO, (and I've watched these things for awhile, although I've not been technically involved) a modern Classic HAS to have a flush deck, low freeboard, with integral cockpit, sit down, optional windshield is OK.
By this simple defination raised molded decks to increase headroom with integral wind deflectors wouldn't qualify. On the other hand, if you had room below due to increased size, an upholstered seating area to get out of the weather wouldn't be a bad idea. But it has to be simple.
I don't mind steps. In my limited trips off shore, a stepped hull is certainly more comfortable and can maintain a higher average speed than a deep vee, at the risk of sore backs, and general exhaustion in the deep vee. I think it's not a consession to modern design but a genuine improvement in performance, just like most of you wouldn't mind four wheel Brimbo disk brakes on a hot rod.

[joseph m. hahnl]

If I were to do a list of classics.

16' sporster and sweet 16
18' corssican,X-18,classic 18 " barrel back is wood ?"
20' minx
22" criterian,22 classic,X-22


but I guess if a classic is a model name then there would only be 2 boats
that are classics the 18 and the 22.

joe

[Cuda]

The question still remains: Can I get a canopy?? :D :D :D

NO! And no damn bimini either! :)

[boxy]

The question still remains: Can I get a canopy?? :D :D :D

26' - check, step bottom - check, 525 - check, canopy - check.
Now which class in APBA are we racing in .... ?

[mattyboy]

If I were to do a list of classics.
16' sporster and sweet 16
18' corssican,X-18,classic 18 " barrel back is wood ?"
20' minx
22" criterian,22 classic,X-22
but I guess if a classic is a model name then there would only be 2 boats
that are classics the 18 and the 22.
joe

some would say a barrelback 18 is more of a classic than a standard 18???
and i find some criteria is cut and dry the cuddy thing is a clear line but the deck line and fittings is not a great benchmark the corsican and the 18 2+3 and x 18 are the same hull just different decks, just cause the boat has a model name does not mean it can not be a classic?? and the hull gimicks hook was intentionally put into the 16 to help performance as was the rocker on a bh hull littles changes good big changes bad???? as far has the hull is concerned
to me a classic embodies all aspects of the model line up from the glory days and the boats that take their design from those ancestors yes the go fast hot rod so a list of classics that doesn't include the baby 14, the hornet and 21gt and corsican is incomplete at best, then the boats that draw their inspiration from those can all be called classic the x 18 f 22 criterion 22c the bh le se anniv ae and gt minx spitfire any boat whose design is not directly inspired by those design features can be called something else, and who knows 15 years from now when Joe is looking at a 2003 zr it may also be called a classic

[Cuda]

I'll pass on the steps thank you.:eek!:

[Woodsy]

WOW.... All this talk about a bigger classic! Too bad Donzi already made one.... You all forgot about one of my personal faves... the Spitfire! :rlol:

http://allardmarine.com/Spitfire.htm

I personally think an updated version of this boat would be killer. Although more than likely cost prohibitive. But it remains one of my faves... I would consider doing a resto on one if I found it!

Woodsy

[mattyboy]

Woodsy,
i didn't forget it I can't get it out of my mind ;)

[The Hedgehog]

The 27 Squadron is as close as it gets... but my 27zx has 1. No Steps 2. Single big block (and soon to be 625hp) engine 3. Classic simple green and white paint job 4. A simple fairing in front and.... 5. Great Lines

Oh well. I guess that it does have a cabin! I probably don't want to take that back on the other hand. It has certain advantages that you simply can't do in a flat deck. If you must ask than you probably need to be hanging in a flat deck with a bunch of guys.

Before this winter is over I will have a nice clean looking 6500lbs single engine wave crusher that has a classic green paint job and does 75 mph and climbing. It will be nice and stable to boot! I am okay with that!

The only thing that I will need is about 800 hp and an Arneson!

[gold-n-rod]

WOW.... All this talk about a bigger classic! Too bad Donzi already made one.... You all forgot about one of my personal faves... the Spitfire!

WOW, what a sweetheart. I'd kill for a red and white one running a pair of 400 hp SBC's!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :yes:

[TuxedoPk]

WOW.... All this talk about a bigger classic! Too bad Donzi already made one.... You all forgot about one of my personal faves... the Spitfire! :rlol:
http://allardmarine.com/Spitfire.htm
I personally think an updated version of this boat would be killer. Although more than likely cost prohibitive. But it remains one of my faves... I would consider doing a resto on one if I found it!
Woodsy

Matty- I'm having trouble with the Spitfire being a 'classic' but my twin sbc Doral with the same hull not being a 'classic' because it has a cuddy. Using this approach of classifying boats wouldn't it be easier to say it's a classic only if it has no/very limitted storage and very impracticle? That would still keep my X-18 and GT as classics and my Doral out without having to worry about deadrise, steps, platforms, etc. :smash: :biggrin:

[Formula Jr]

This is another of those debates where we are not defining our terms well.

A boat can have classic "go fast" lines; negative shear, 24 degree deadrise, narrow beam....etc, or a boat can be a "Classic Donzi."

Since Formula defined those lines in glass prior to Donzi, AND prior to Cig, its a bit wrong that most people call all these "go fast" boats Cigarette boats. They should have called them "Formula Boats." But I guess that was less sexy.

I define a Classic Donzi as any boat designed prior to '85. This would include the Seven Meter, which doesn't have classical donzi lines. And the Hornets, which didn't have a classic straight 24 degree deep vee hull.
And this has more to do with a well defined, limited set of designs. Of which, only three designs, crossed over pass '85 as present day classics: 16, 18, 22.

There are plenty of Donzis after '85 that have classic lines. Yet there is no fundimental difference in form of post '85 Donzis and a whole basket full of other makers. The Minx is one of those with classical lines, but I wouldn't call that boat a Classic Donzi: Its a classic "go fast."

Some boats were styled more like Donzis than Donzi did after '85.
The Blackfins are a prime example.

I'm just saying after '85, it becoms very problematic to lable something as a Classic Donzi form. That form wasn't Donzi's in the first place.

[gcarter]

I'm really impressed with the Spitfire!!!:yes:
How did that one get by me?
Has anyone here actually seen one? Any idea how many were built?

[Woodsy]

I have personally never seen one. There is a rumour of one over in ME, that I have been trying to track down. I beleive its just a hull, the guy having sold the 350/Alpha SS that were in it. I would love to find one of those, and restore/update it.

Just think twin 350MAG MPI and Bravo1/Imco Shorty combo... sweet!

Woodsy

[BUIZILLA]

There was one for sale in south Ft Lauderdale at a trailerable brokerage/salvage/repo yard last year or so, I seem to vaguely remember pic's on here. I saw it from the road on a trailer... it was at the northwest corner of 595 and US 1.

[Woodsy]

Zilla...

Keep me posted if you should happen across that boat again.... I have been looking for one of those for awhile. I think a SpitFire would be an awesome Lake Winni boat...

Woodsy

[mattyboy]

as a kid there was one on my lake twin racing 327's and e drives
maine u say???? there was one in ga i think sometime back painted with early 80's type graphics but seemed to be all there twin sbc for like 14k if i recall

wow what bothers me is we have members here who haven't reviewed the model lists???


Tux as Formula jr as pointed out more concisely than me is what is a Classic Donzi not to be confused with a donzi classic or a classic thunderboat row boat
I don't necessarily agree with the cuddy thing maybe for a classic donzi but not for a classic thunderboat row boat cause the 28ss has a small cuddy and would most assuredily be on an all time classic list

so a sportsman is just a donzi , but 007 and 008 are classics???

so far I think Formula Jr has the best benchmark to judge any boat pre time frame

[Woodsy]

Well... if you happen to stumble across a restorable one....

[mattyboy]

yeah what woodsy said!!!!
a single ilmor and an arney might be cool

and If I find one you guys will be the first to know ;) :) :p

[Cevert]

WOW.... All this talk about a bigger classic! Too bad Donzi already made one.... You all forgot about one of my personal faves... the Spitfire! I personally think an updated version of this boat would be killer.
Woodsy

Mind if I join this discussion? Seems you are describing the 24' Cig, later known as the Firefox, and also known as the Banana Boat. Since the McCarthy's are restarting production with their 24' molds, you will soon have the opportunity to build one to your own specs with modern tech.

[mattyboy]

no hop right in ;)

the donzi 24 came in 4 flavors 2+3 layout the spitfire
fishing center WAC el pescador, sport cruiser the doral and spirit 24 sonic I thought got the 24 molds thought the cig was a different animal??

[Moody Blu']

sure all old "speed" boats are def genuine classics but they're not named it.

Donzi named the classic, "the classic" there are 2 classic models, 18 and 22.

If donzi built a new boat with twin asd6's, supercharged big blocks, with pads,steps ,cuddy and then named it "the classic" Its a classic the name states it.

what if they named the original 18 and 22 classic, the tuna?

it would be a classic boat but then we would be talking about what makes a boat a tuna.:P

On a side note, ford and chevy built the mustang and camaro, but only the older ones are considered classics. ALL of them are mustangs and camaros though. I'm sure we have all thought some of these two cars werent mustangs or camaros in our minds when the new models came out. Until we ended up just living with the fact that they WERE what they said they were. regardless if they lived up to our opinions. the company decides what to call there cars/boats, not us.

with that said, if donzi builds a 24-26 foot boat regardless of its lines etc and named it a classic thats its name.

Heck, Im positive most of us on this forum have seen some SCARY looking boats, like the donzi "party boat" and cringed and thought thats NO donzi. Maybe not what our particular opinions invision a donzi to be, but it is a donzi.

[TuxedoPk]

Mind if I join this discussion? Seems you are describing the 24' Cig, later known as the Firefox, and also known as the Banana Boat. Since the McCarthy's are restarting production with their 24' molds, you will soon have the opportunity to build one to your own specs with modern tech.

I think you've picked up some incorrect information along the way. Matty is correct: The 24' molds were sold by Donzi to Sonic and they were not banana boats or anything remotely resembling a banana boat.

[mattyboy]

the 18's name was "18 2+3 "when it was introduced it wasn't called a classic til the 80's??? around the same time the 22 was introduced but the 22 took a couple of different shapes and names before the 22 classic emerged and the term sweet 16 came around in the 90's when omc started production again after maybe seeing the faults of it's way perhaps stopping production on the 16 was not such a great idea ???
perhaps the term "heritage" might be used instead??

[boldts]

I believe there was rumured to be a 24' Spitfire up on Lake Erie. Sandusky/Cleveland area I believe? I too have always liked that design.

Personally, a 22 Classic or 18 Classic stretched to 24 or 26 feet would be very cool. Just like the current Donzi Classic boats. Get from point A to point B and don't give a rats butt about creature comforts. I don't have a problem with updating the hull either. After all, a 26' Classic that needs 1000HP to go 60 mph isn't what a Donzi Classic is about. Its the attitude the boat carries as it's crossing the waterway at 70 plus that is a Donzi Classic. The boat looks like it is going fast when it's sitting at the dock and everyone at the food place or bar is staring and admiring it. It's that attitude that would be most important in stretching the boat to a larger size. Heck, how many of you spend a half an hour or more at the launch ramp before or after boating talking to people who just had to see what the boat was? The boat looks fast on the trailer. (For those trailering to a Donzi gathering, some are faster on the trailer than in the water!)

That's all about the lines of a Donzi Classic. Make it bigger, but keep the lines. Add a pad or steps. You still maintain the lines. Only difference, you just made the boat competitive to much lighter, more HP and maybe not as well designed boats available today. Old race cars don't get better because they are old, they get better because someone redesigns old technology and puts better parts in them. For instance, a simple urathane bushing enhancement will improve the car's performance by leaps and bounds, yet still keep the car's classic lines.

Sorry, probably way off topic now. Back to the original poll.

[BERTRAM BOY]

Mind if I join this discussion? Seems you are describing the 24' Cig, later known as the Firefox, and also known as the Banana Boat. Since the McCarthy's are restarting production with their 24' molds, you will soon have the opportunity to build one to your own specs with modern tech.


Okay, I'll bite. Who are the McCarthy's?

[joseph m. hahnl]

Matty: ARE we talking about when is a donzi a classic boat "AS in age". Or which hull is the classic style. I was talking style of hull based apon the 16, 18, and the 22. these hulls seem to be identical other than stretching the nose out. the minx has this same stretch. the sharp curve up that meets the deck." you like the 18 better than the 22 just for that reason. The spit fire doesn't look that way to me "but i've only seen the model list photo". all of the other models don't seem to have that look either. I think the 16 falls into that same hull design regardless of a hook.as far as an old classic donzi when is it a classic.It is as with any thing "how old it is .


joe


joe

[MOP]

A really good post with a lot of good info and ideas thanks for a good history lesson! This past season I was docking at Claudio's another old guy like me was helping with the lines. He asked what the Beast was I said a 22 Classic, he stood there for a bit and then said I can see why. He said it looked like a classic gentlemen's run about clean neat and sexy, after we ate I offered him a ride. He did not miss a beat with YES, he came back with one of the best **** eating grins I have seen in a long time. As we pulled back in we had to pass a few of the BIG BOYS some really nice machines, his comment was gold chain kids toys! Got a hand shake and a Capt Morgan out of the deal! To me it is the clean look more than anything else that sets a Classic a part from the pack.

Phil

[McGary911]

Okay, I'll bite. Who are the McCarthy's?

Charlie McCarthy, former racer....banana boat builder. I think he and his son are going to start production again if all goes well....

http://bananaboatco.com/

not much on the site, but there are a few pics....

[joseph m. hahnl]

check out this linkwww.fiberglassics.com/donzi/

another onewww.goboatingamerica.com/main/article.asp?id=66

joe

[mattyboy]

it's not a name thing that's more a marketing scheme linking the boats now called classic series 16 18 and 22 to their past reputation
it's just not an age thing either
to me it is more an image, staying power thing, more true to the image of what the boats started as?? something that takes from its past and honors it
doesn't try to mass produce and just put out another cookie cutter boat
can i see a lineage from the hornet to the spitfire then onto the criterion yes
can I see a larson,4 winns, christ craft in most of the donzi boats produced under omc besides the 16 18 and 22 yes
I'm not sure anymore by the voting the only classics are 16 18 22 with that margine

[Marlin275]

Its the design that makes it a classic.
Here is a brand new classic 33.
T-525EFI B1 Staggered LowRider
http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11306&d=1115077446

[gcarter]

That gets my attention.:yes:
Marlin captured something important that the Spitfire doesn't provide.....
An extremely flat flush deck and very low freeboard!!!!!
But I wouldn't kick a Spitfire out of bed.

[gcarter]

I define a Classic Donzi as any boat designed prior to '85. This would include the Seven Meter, which doesn't have classical donzi lines. And the Hornets, which didn't have a classic straight 24 degree deep vee hull.
And this has more to do with a well defined, limited set of designs. Of which, only three designs, crossed over pass '85 as present day classics: 16, 18, 22.
There are plenty of Donzis after '85 that have classic lines. Yet there is no fundimental difference in form of post '85 Donzis and a whole basket full of other makers. The Minx is one of those with classical lines, but I wouldn't call that boat a Classic Donzi: Its a classic "go fast."
Owen, probably just a technicality, but the Minx WAS designed before '85. Since it started production in January of '85, it was designed and the tooling constructed in '84 or earlier. I won't argue your point though as it's pretty subjective.

[joseph m. hahnl]

Owen, probably just a technicality, but the Minx WAS designed before '85. Since it started production in January of '85, it was designed and the tooling constructed in '84 or earlier. I won't argue your point though as it's pretty subjective.

The minx definately is a classic. same hull as the 18 and the 22.



joe

[joseph m. hahnl]

check out this linkwww.fiberglassics.com/donzi/
another onewww.goboatingamerica.com/main/article.asp?id=66
joe
check out some Donzi history. answers the question thru a third party:yes:
joe

[mattyboy]

talk about your revisionist history :rolleyes: try this one

http://www.donzi.net/dlist/skisporter/sh.htm

[mattyboy]

assuming the word classic is an adjective when referring to donzi

classic
1. Belonging to the highest rank or class.


2.Serving as the established model or standard: a classic example of colonial architecture.

3. Having lasting significance or worth; enduring.

4.Adhering or conforming to established standards and principles: a classic piece of research.

5.Of a well-known type; typical: a classic mistake.


run a few boats thru these five and see i think 4 and 5 don't fit a donzi classic as they are not typical boats of their era, and well everyone knows donzi and well number one is a gimme

so in order to be a classic you have to nail 2 and 3

so let's play am i a classic

the 16 well hell yeah

the 18 well hell yeah

now let's take the minx

a hell yeah on 3 but did it serve as the established model only being produced in limited numbers no as does the other limited production boats

now the 22 well since the 80's for over 20 years i think nails 2 and 3 is a given
so the 22 now can be called a classic

now let's talk what time it takes to become an established line in the donzi family 1 2 3 4 5 10 20 years???
there's your answer in a nut shell

[onesubdrvr]

....now let's talk what time it takes to become an established line in the donzi family 1 2 3 4 5 10 20 years???
there's your answer in a nut shell
Well, I'd say that's rather tricky too,...

X-18 made for what 6 years,....

what about all the other "odd ball's"? Minx? Corsican? Baby Donzi?

Hmmmm
Wayne

[mattyboy]

I would call those boats Elite donzi i would say 5 years is established?? and to be called elite it must have 1 and 3 pegged big time

[Marlin275]

Well, I'd say that's rather tricky too,...
X-18 made for what 6 years,....

Wayne

X-18 Hull made for 40 years,
no problem
its a classic !

[Formula Jr]

Cevert, In our tribal language a "banana" boat is a very specific 27 foot design. And there are only five of them. They were deamed failures by the people who raced them, Brownie, Aronow, etc. But they were light years ahead of any thing as an experiement. And the race boats that followed, do owe everything to that experiment. They are grails and mystical.

[Moody Blu']

Ok, with number 2 being my point of veiw. it seems to me the only 3 boats that could be considered named classics, as per going with your guidelines.

the 16,18 and 22 all have the exact look just stretched. with the exception of the sweet 16 cockpit. werent some of the 16's 2+3 as well? they all match with number 2. the minx, the x-18 are in themselves classics but have there own name that deserves respect. WOuld you call your x 18 a classic

also, #5 makes me think, not many people know the x-18 as much as the donzi classic. they have different lines (if ever so slight)

[mattyboy]

some other boats fit number 2
better than the x 18
namely the hornet produced from 64-76 than onto the hornet II and III

I don't think we can seperate hull from tops by the definition,
like an early american colonial home with corinthian columns??? it's not a classic colonial home then

seems like the zx boats have been around long enough to be called classics now?? classic donzi step boats

[Rootsy]

you all are giving me a headache :banghead:

[mattyboy]

take 2 asprin alot of beer and call me in the spring ;)

[Marlin275]

some other boats fit number 2
better than the x 18
I don't think we can seperate hull from tops by the definition,
like an early american colonial home with corinthian columns??? it's not a classic colonial home then
seems like the zx boats have been around long enough to be called classics now?? classic donzi step boats

Matty
Are you saying the X-18 is not a classic?
Most people like them more than the standard 18 classic.

[mattyboy]

yes that's exactly what I am saying
as I said in my earlier post I don't consider limited production boats classic cause they
A. weren't produced in enough volume to establish a standard
and
B. weren't produced long enough to be establish a standard
by definition number 2

now do I consider the bench seat hornet the minx the corsican the crits, the x 18 the baby 14 , the spitfire
ELITE donzi yes, more desireable than a classic YES

if the x18 caught on an sold more that the standard 18 was stopped and the x18 was the only 18 produced from back in the 70's their numbers would be way higher and it would lose it ELITE status and than establishing a standard would become a classic

and let's focus on the spitfire again????

seems I can think of only one boat that I would call the elite of the elite and that would be the spitfire is there a member here that owns one??? seems that we even have a member who has a model of one rare gem or another we have all of the crit's models covered a 14 , corsicans, minx's ,
anyone???
Poodle this is were you usually jump in with a "what about this one" pic ;)

Jamie on second thought make that 4 asprins a bottle of tullamore dew and call me this summer :)

[Marlin275]

yes that exactly what I am saying
as I said in my earlier post I don't consider limited production boats classic cause they
A. weren't produced in enough volume to establish a standard
and
B. weren't produced long enough to be establish a standard
by definition number 2


Matty
A. Those were good production numbers back then for a company
that had very limited production in the first place.

B. The X-18 cost much more than the standard 18 and that's what killed it off, is my
understanding. It was a marketing problem.

I think you have to adjust your criteria if the X-18 can't pass that test of time.

The X-18 fits your standard #3 better than most?
3. Having lasting significance or worth; enduring.

You could say it was the most significant 18 ever produced.
Its influence is still being felt today.
The X-22 owes alot to its design inspiration.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14518&d=1126109116

[txtaz]

you all are giving me a headache :banghead:
Me too....I'm going with what it says on the title...DMRCA...
Da Taz<<<--- I know mine's a classic

[mattyboy]

Matty
A. Those were good production numbers back then for a company
that had very limited production in the first place.

B. The X-18 cost much more than the standard 18 and that's what killed it off, is my
understanding. It was a marketing problem.

I think you have to adjust your criteria if the X-18 can't pass that test of time.

The X-18 fits your standard #3 better than most?
3. Having lasting significance or worth; enduring.


seems to me a classic shouldn't be defending it's price or explaining why it had marketing problems, or why it bid an early adue
yes number three a one off item can have enduring worth or value as most Donzi do but it doesn't make it a classic
Now watch you're on a slippery slope if the X18 is a classic "a standard" a benchmark why would they be valued more than regular 18???
I would take my ELITE status and be happy ;)

[Woodsy]

Oh my head....

The ONLY true classics are the 1st generation Donzi's... the ones produced/designed while Don Aronow owned the company. After Aronow sold the the company, all else is just another rehashed fiberglass boat. Almost all of the subsequent Donzi boats can trace thier design from the original 16... that was of course a rehash of a Formula... :wink: :wink:

Woodsy

[mattyboy]

woodsy
man that throws alot of people under the bus ;)
any luck on that rehashed spitfire??

[Marlin275]

The X is still being produced today :biggrin: just a little bigger.
How 'bout an asterisk, *Classic and ELITE

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14519&d=1126109116

[mattyboy]

Marlin now you're really grasping at straws
the x 18 can't be compared to a 22 with a fairing
the x 18 was unique had unmistakeable lines

now my head hurts :rolleyes:

:)

[Rootsy]

classic? forget the word.. it was a word added to a couple of standard models of donzi runabouts in order to garner a mystique and sales... profiting on the generation that had seen and fallen in love with these boats as youngsters... typical corporate BS... i say stick with the original names... 18 2+3... 16 ski - sporter, X18, Corsican... F14, baby 14, hornet, hornet 2, etc etc etc... blah blah blah blah blah... but what do we call the 22? a 22 classic or an F22? that is the question...

[Woodsy]

Matty....

Sorry it took me so long to post... I was busy robbing a McDonalds!

Anyway, my post wasn't meant to throw anyone under the bus. Donzi is one of the original Four Horsemen of speedboats, Formula, Donzi, Magnum and Cigarette. What makes Donzi ownership such a cult is that you can trace the lineage back to Jim Wynne, Walt Walters and Don Aronow. After Don sold the company, the succesion of new owners continued in that tradition of styling, with several new models evolving from the original. An X-18 is an evolution of the original 18 2+3, that itself was an evolution of the original 16, that was an evolution of the original Wynne-Mill. The Wynne-Mill being one of the most seminal boat designs ever, followed closely by the 27' Formula.

All of these boats, 22 Classic, Minx, X-18, Spitfire, Doral, etc have all evolved from the original. To call them classic is to do a disservice to the original boats. Thats like calling that Eleanor Mustang a Shelby... it may look like a Shelby, drive like a Shelby, but its not a Shelby.

You can debate all you want about what makes a certain Donzi model collectable, but IMHO, the only true "Classics" are the ones that came out of the factory while it was owned by D.J. Aronow.

Woodsy

[mattyboy]

Woodsy,
I thought you called it plundering??? :) ;)
I know I was kidding with the bus thing

I can see your point and now that I think about it collectible is a term that really fits the best, the rarer boats are more collectible :yes:

I christen thee the 22+3 how's that sound


man i figured this thread would get me half way thru the holiday season????

[Marlin275]

the x 18 can't be compared to a 22 with a fairing
the x 18 was unique had unmistakeable lines
:)

Yea, the X-22 doesn't have a new deck mold like the X-18 did.
They literally threw away the X-18 molds.
It's alot cheaper to just add a bolt-on fairing.
But the influence and legend live on in a classic way ! :biggrin:


http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4310&d=1089130085

[EricG]

Cevert, In our tribal language a "banana" boat is a very specific 27 foot design. And there are only five of them. They were deamed failures by the people who raced them, Brownie, Aronow, etc. But they were light years ahead of any thing as an experiement. And the race boats that followed, do owe everything to that experiment. They are grails and mystical.

That is true, although the McCarthy Banana Boat Company boats are also worth a look. First off, he has stated on OSO that he did not have anything to do with building the 27's you are referring to, those are a completely different animal (and I agree, very special indeed). But, according to his posts on OSO, he was a good friend of Don A. DA sold him an original set of molds for the 24, 28SS, and 35 Cigs, and then spent some time showing him his Layup technique and recipe. That is where the Banana Boat Company came from. Apparently the McCarthy's sold the company at some point, and there is a batch of boats that are not quite up to the same standards as his originals, but they still have the molds, and are planning on using the original technique to build a modern day verson of these classic hulls. I for one can't wait to see how they turn out. Just think of a brand new 28SS with modern power but the same timeless lines :biggrin: The Banana section of OSO defintely has some interesting reading.

As far as the classic discussion, it's all sooooo subjective....I'll just stay out of it, for now :-)

-EG

[BERTRAM BOY]

Speaking of McDonald's...... Do you guys remember this Spitfire?
As Ranman so eloquently put it......."McDumbass".....

[joseph m. hahnl]

well from what i see as a classic is a hull style. yes there are old classic Donzi's. Acorrding to the Link Aronow was building 28' boats for offshore racing.That's what he did ,he Raced" they became so competitive they designed a small Deep V which became Formula Jr.
Then they designed the 16 .it is clear they did not build or design a boat that was a replica of a Formula jr. The sixteen was a revamped design.
Then the 16' was stretched. These super models of the 16 are compleltly diffrent boats then the larger boats. The large donzi's are modeled after the 28 footers that Don Built to Race. That is why when you look at 16,18,20M,22
they have a different look. But That is why The "18 is the baddest ass of all boats ever made" it has that look that now other boat has.it is that look that makes them classics. Matty with your production theory >Shelby Cobra's are limited addition yet highly collectable, and definatly classic" It remains a classic even though they went back into production .


gatta go


joe

[Cuda]

Speaking of McDonald's...... Do you guys remember this Spitfire?
As Ranman so eloquently put it......."McDumbass".....
I've GOT to have that boat! :)

[gcarter]

If I had made millions of dollars selling burgers like this guy may have, I'd be tempted to do something like that!!!!
Like Flatracers new barrel back named Honeybun.

[Moody Blu']

:biggrin: a horse is a horse of course of course

[Formula Jr]

If we're only going to deal with when Aronow owned Donzi then that means
just three boats: 16 Ski-Sporter, Hornet 19 and the 28 Sportsman.

Man, thats a short list and a very small number of boats in total. Maybe 100 or so boats.

Now, if you count up all the pre Genth and Houser boats they total about 1100-to 1200. So any boat with the Donzi name prior to '85 is also a rare boat.
I think it is fine and fitting that these boats get special attention over an above the later boats. Even over the designs still in production.
If you put a perfect 1964 16 next to a 2006 16 the difference will be noticable. Everything is a little less on the 2006 boat. There is plastic were there once was chrome or walnut. And for good reason. In adjusted dollars the '64 would seem crazy extravagant. And they were since they were aimed as play toys for the very, very rich. Very much like the old mahogany run-abouts used as tenders. There are things on the '64 boat that state how proud the builders were. And in '67, even the vents had "Donzi" cast into them.

Oh, I almost forgot..... While in New York on a Circle Line tour, we saw the Highlander, The Forbes Yacht. Guess what its tenders are....

And I guess that is my point here. From a quarter mile away, the tenders on the Highlander were instantly recognizable as Donzi and Cig. Now all the new boats that followed after '85, I really can't tell the difference unless there are big graphics on the side. Sometimes I can't even tell the difference between a Searay, and an LXC Donzi since the designs got shared in corp boat land.


And when you go to a show, and you see one 27-33 foot twin or triple with 502 mercs, you pretty much have seen them all. And for a few hundred thousand dollars you get precisely what everyone else can get. Even the ZRs fall into this in some way. Go buy any other boat of equal length and HP and gut the cuddy interior and you have a ZR. Funny thing is it would probably cost you less to do that then buying a new ZR.

[boxy]

Owen, while I buy the arguement that only "designs" that originated before 1985 would be classic, I would have to debate the last part of your thread. I've spent quite a bit of time around the new ZR's, (both Comp, and Pleasure) and I can't think of one HiPo hull that you could gut, and maintain the performance level of a ZR and save money.

[mattyboy]

well from what i see as a classic is a hull style. yes there are old classic Donzi's. Acorrding to the Link Aronow was building 28' boats for offshore racing.That's what he did ,he Raced" they became so competitive they designed a small Deep V which became Formula Jr.
Then they designed the 16 .it is clear they did not build or design a boat that was a replica of a Formula jr. The sixteen was a revamped design.
Then the 16' was stretched. These super models of the 16 are compleltly diffrent boats then the larger boats. The large donzi's are modeled after the 28 footers that Don Built to Race. That is why when you look at 16,18,20M,22
they have a different look. But That is why The "18 is the baddest ass of all boats ever made" it has that look that now other boat has.it is that look that makes them classics. Matty with your production theory >Shelby Cobra's are limited addition yet highly collectable, and definatly classic" It remains a classic even though they went back into production .
gatta go
joe


Joe, you seem to forget the 19 hull the hornet that was around at the begining and that was raced what was that revamped from???? and let's not forget the cobra was a revamped underpowered english sports car ;) an wasn't a limited production car
when people talk bad ass and super models I tend to fall asleep

[mattyboy]

Matty, there are two boats missing on the board: The Spit, and a Crit II...
Owen, valid points, but what about the 14? And to add a wrinkle to that, is the verified Cig 14 a classic???
sorry I thought ed donelly had a II,

I guess my point is "to establish a standard" part let's look Joe point about the cobra is it a classic muscle car?? did it establish a standard for a two seat convertible??? is it a classic collectible uncommon car or classic race car turned street monster

well did it set a standard as a muscle car no I think not i think that honor can go to the gto or 442 cuda gtx and others
did it set the standard for a two seat convertible it think that honor went to the tbird or vette
is it the standard for an uncommon rare most sought after race car turned street machine yes
so let's take this to our boats


so you're all right in away and you're all wrong in a way

we obiviously need an adjective for the adjective classic

so the following terms will now be used

Classic Aronow donzi ----Don's boats
Classic elite donzi the-----the rare ones
Classic Stepped Donzi------- The ZX
Classic Competion Donzi------ all the race boats past and present
Classic Customized Donzi------ the minx, the X18
Classic heritage Donzi------ the 16 ,18, 22
Donzi----- all boats that don't fit the terms above


;)

[Formula Jr]

These are no brainers on the 14. Yes. Classic.

I am going to stick with the idea that the ZR isn't so special. People did this before with poker boats of all kinds . So what does make this boat something special? Other than the fact that other racers dropped out for a while, And there was a window to be the best of the standard milk toast designs?

Oh that might make people mad.....
There's nothing revolutionary about a ZR, its just a bit better.
But it isn't new......in any way. And there are private boats that don't follow the same rules that are faster.

[boxy]

Even the ZRs fall into this in some way. Go buy any other boat of equal length and HP and gut the cuddy interior and you have a ZR. Funny thing is it would probably cost you less to do that then buying a new ZR.

I won't argue your point that the ZR is the same, just better.
I will ask you again to name a boat that you can buy, gut, maintain the same level of performance, and save money ? :umbrella: :cartman:
I may not be involved in this winter debate much today, the sun is shining, and it's almost 60 degrees today .... :D

[Lenny]

Owen, was that an X-18 on the Forbes Yacht? Grey hull-sides ? Got a bigger pic?

...and about "speed". I find it amazing that the Poker Run Boats see GPS numbers beyond what all the race boats see. Turbines, amazing horsepower etc. In fact, this year the Poker Run boats, ( a LOT of them) all huge horsepower, made the run from Lauderdale/Miami to Key West and back. THAT is a long run in big water. :yes: and yet on land, we don't see people buying cars that are faster than Gran Prix/Indy nor outperforming, and for less money. :confused:

[TuxedoPk]

This is going to be a LOOOONG Winter with posts like this starting so early!

Matty- I thought you'd have made your popcorn and bunkered down to take shots at Winter posts not leading the charge like Teddy Roosevelt charging up a hill :) BTW- You still need to email me the information for Allen's dinner for tomorrow night.

[Marlin275]

Owen, was that an X-18 on the Forbes Yacht? Grey hull-sides ? Got a bigger pic?:

No great X-18 on the Forbes Yacht.
On board are a Bell Jet Ranger III helicopter, two tenders a 19-foot Cigarette and a 23-foot Donzi
- and two BMW motorcycles.

They repainted the tenders to match the Yacht so it is hard to figure which models they are.

http://www.forbeshighlander.com/index.html

[BERTRAM BOY]

It's going to be prety hard to convince some of us that a Hornet isn't a "classic".

[Woodsy]

The Shelby AC Cobra was not a "MUscle Car"... It was a "Sports Car". The term "Muscle Car" is reserved for mid size 2 dr sedans ala Pontiac GTO, Ford Fairlane, Chevrolet Malibu. The term "Pony Car" is used to describe the Mustangs, Camaros and Firebirds.

I am with Formula JR.... although I love the look of the ZR line, I don't think they are all that special. Same for the ZX line. Great boats, but not all that special.

I still think you guys have it a bit wrong.... you cannot use the word "Classic" as an adjective for everything. I don't mean to devalue or trash anyones boat (I own a 26ZX) but....

The original 16 Ski-Sporter is boat on which most of the others evolved from. it is the quintessential Classic. The 18 2+3, X-18's, Minx's, Criterions, Spitfires, F-22, 22 Classics, etc can all trace thier lines back to the 16 Ski-Sporter. Period! End of Story! Everything else is an evolution of the original design. Some of the larger boats, can trace thier lineage back to the Hornets & Sportsman!

Classic Donzi --- Don's boats - 16 Ski Sporter, 19 Hornet, 28 Sportsman

Elite Donzi --- the rare ones & one offs - 22OB, Crit II, Crit SS, Spitfire etc

Heritage Donzi--- direct decendants of the originals - the 16, 18, 22, X-18, Minx, F-22, etc

Modern Donzi------- The Z-boats, ZX, ZR

Woodsy

[joseph m. hahnl]

Okay: would not a Ski Sporster,a Hornet, and the Sportsman all be antique boats? Hasn't there classicism expired?would they not also become legendary?
Wont a ZX become classic in time?
What does classic mean in your own word?

joe

[joseph m. hahnl]

the cobra is it a classic muscle car?? did it establish a standard for a two seat convertible??? is it a classic collectible uncommon car or classic race car turned street monster
well did it set a standard as a muscle car no I think not i think that honor can go to the gto or 442 cuda gtx and others
did it set the standard for a two seat convertible it think that honor went to the tbird or vette


Matty the Shelby Cobra Is One super bad ass model:wink:
"Sorry I was all emotional" :wavey:
The shelby did set standards for breaking and acceleration.

Let's play name that classic?

64 chevy Impala
69 Chevy Corvette Stingray
68 Ford Shelby Gt 500
70 ford Torino
Ford Pinto
Amc Gremlin
Amc Hornet.
MG Midget
Dodge Aries K car
Willys Jeep
Studer baker Avocet
Studer Backer star liner coupe.
Ford Model A


So when does it become antique over Classic.


joe


joe

[Marlin275]

Categories

The Antique and Classic Boat Society, Inc. (ACBS)

Historic: A boat built up to and including 1918.

Antique: A boat built between 1919 and 1942, inclusive.

Classic: A boat built between 1943 and 1968, inclusive.

Production contemporary: A production wooden boat built 1969 to present.

Custom Contemporary: A modified or one-of-a kind wooden boat built 1969 to present.

Replica: A boat built in a non-production manner.


So the X-18 hull is Classic,
but the deck is now Production Contemporary
and the whole thing by this definition will be
a pure classic in a few more years
when those dates are adjusted :biggrin:

http://www.acbs.org/judging.html#criteria

[Formula Jr]

It is an 19 foot Donzi and a 23 foot Cigarette... hay hay.... ha hah

Got YOU MR WEB MASTER HIGHJLANDER PERSON...... Ha hah haha hha hha ahhahgahah ahha ahha a aha aha aha aha ahahyahaha ahahahahahahahah

[mattyboy]

well we can call a Christmas tree a Christmas tree now
do you think we can get it worked out guys??? :p

poodle the crit II is the bench seat only one with no front seats??

[TuxedoPk]

Thank you Mel Gibson ;)


well we can call a Christmas tree a Christmas tree now

[anotherScott]

Just to stir some holiday S#*& :):)

It was a 19' foot hornet and a 20' Cigarette on the Highlander. I bartered a dinner cruise around New York City for my wife and I. We stuck out like sore thumbs...............but who was I to care........filling my gut with champagne and shrimp on one of the coolest boats in the world. I was in shock after seeing that the Forbes family apparantly let Stevie Wonder drive these tenders on a daily basis, cause they were rooooough. But in defense of the Forbes family it must be a b*tch to load and unload those babies out in open water.

how many days till spring?

Scott

[mattyboy]

a bench seat with a bar how cools is that
:spit: :yippie:
now that's what I call a CLASSIC

[GEOO]

I think Donzi "Classic" series can be what ever Donzi wants. A Minx's doesn't look like a 1960's 16 classic, but it is a classic. 22's weren't made until the late 70's. I couldn't imagine Donzi making a ZX and calling it a Classic, But I could see them making a larger low deck boat boat, regardless of the bottom type, and calling it a Classic. I think any Donzi with the Classic style low deck could be called a Classic.

[rustnrot]

What's with all the gauges on the Crit II pic above? Is it a Twin?

[mrfixxall]

When it looks like this after a drunkin teenager hits the boat at 60+mph with his car...

[Ed Donnelly]

Rustnrot; Single engine in the Criterion 11 and SS
Duplicate gauges. tach, speedo,battery,2 pyrometers, 2 hydraulic pressure gauges, so the passenger(navigator) can monitor the engine too.......Ed

[Hotspare]

Definitive ........

"A Classic"

Authoritative and Perfect as a Standard of its Kind ......

Always Fashionable and Elegant, usually because of Simplicity and Restraint in Style ........

Yea .... I'm thinking any major deviation from the true styling of the hull, deck and/or interior would render it as something less than a Classic I'm affraid ...........

In other words, don't grow no frikkin BEAKS and Stuff .......................LOL..... Sorry, I couldn't resist :rlol:

[onesubdrvr]

HS, I think that's a pretty good definition, but now we must define major as it refers to the changes,....

ma-jor adj. 1 : greater in dignity, rank, importance, or interest <one of the classic poets>, 2: greater in number quantity, or extent <the major part of his work>, 3 : having attained majority 4 : notable or conspicuous in effect or scope : considerable <a major improvment> 5 : involving grave risk : serious <a major illness> 6 : of or relating to a subject of academic study chosen as a field of specialization,....there is more, but not related,.....

I think the most aplicable use here would be #4,...

Notable or conspicuous in effect or scope - So to me, that doesn't exclude all of the boats we've been talking about, BUT, it does exclude

the ZX series (as they have stepped hulls, a pretty notable change)
any non run-about, (include the bow riders, the fish boats, cabin boats, etc.)

I even have to question - by definition - and this is the one that's gonna get me spanked,...

The blackhawks - only because of the paint / graphics, and there was another one that has the "slash" graphics (?) from the late 80's? Some would say even the Testerrosa edition, but I think even though it's got a different paint, still classic in styling. Same with the AE's and GT's.

All the other classics had pretty strait forward classic paint jobs, those two are the most conspicuous.

But, most importantly, they are all Donzi's and premier boats.

Wayne

[mrfixxall]

HS, thank you for the definition.... Brings a bit of sense in the room :) :)
Geooo, sorry dude, I forgot to attach the picture :banghead: :banghead:
hay madpoodle i have a nicer pic of that boat:eek:

[GEOO]

Scott, The Beak Boat ride wasn't quite as exciting as an X-18 ride, but having someone else work the throttles made it a little interesting. :cartman: