Off subject repair......Wooden

[Pismo]

Does anyone know where I can get a wooden boat repaired (needs a new bottom) in the Lake George, NY area? Who does good work around there? Thanks

[MOP]

This fellow is local to me and has done a bunch of LG boats and many from even othe countries, there are not to many quality dust nuts left.

http://www.vintagemarine.com/contact.html

[Craig S]

what kind of boat is it????:sombrero:

[Pismo]

An early 90s Morgan era Hacker 24' Triple with a wood/epoxy bottom that has rotted away. Most of what is below the white line is spong.

[DonziJon]

An early 90s Morgan era Hacker 24' Triple with a wood/epoxy bottom that has rotted away. Most of what is below the white line is spong.

HACKER BOAT COMPANY (Silver Bay, Lake George) has a NEW owner. I guess Bill Morgan sold out. Try taking it back there. They have a NEW Hull Warranty program. (1-518-543-6666) Morgan Hackers quite often get mixed reviews. Good Luck.

[Bob]

Wow! I thought that west bottoms were supposed to last forever. More info please- what happened?

[Pismo]

It just rotted away completely, no damage, no accidents, etc. The problem with epoxied bottoms is first the wood can never dry thoroughly, and second is if you get a tiny piece of exposed wood somehow, from a hairline stress crack, shrinkage, hitting a leaf in the water, etc. the wood will slowly soak up and cannot dry out. The water gets trapped inside by the epoxy and the rot begins. This is a very common problem with these newer Hackers I have learned. I saw boats at Morgans that were only a 2-3 yrs old that were rotted away already, so they are still struggling with the problem. Older exposed wood boats last much longer because they can dry out, especially during winter storage. I know some 50 year old wood boats that are still fine with no work ever done, just a coat of copper bronze every year. A layer of glass on just the outside seems to works well because they can dry from the inside.

[Pismo]

I called vintage boats in LI and they sound great but are booked up for this winter already. Morgan's new owner will do a much better job I am sure once he gets it worked out. I have known him for years and it will come together. The Hull warranty is a necessity now because it has become well known about this common rotting problem. Has anyone heard or know about Spencer Boats in Saranac Lake, NY. They have done several Hacker bottoms already but I would like a reference.

[Donzi LG]

Hi,
My uncle has a 30' triple built by Bill Morgan and is also in your situation. He has been on the lake his whole life and is very knowledgalbe about Hackers. He is having Fish Brothers in Glens Falls replace his bottom this winter. I suggest giving them a call, let me know if you'd like more info..

John

[gcarter]

If you read the Gugeon brothers (the inventers of WEST system) book and materials, the key to making it work is the layup pieces of wood have to be very thin so that they saturate with epoxy. I think a number of builbers are cutting corners by using wood thicknesses that can't saturate, so you have this problem of incapsulating water. Obviously there's a lot more labor involved in doing it right................

[SenorAnaconda]

West System does not flex as wooden boats are designed to do. The newest systems that I am aware of is a 5200 bottom along with CPES. This is a clear penetrating epoxy sealer. It saturates the wood but still allows it to be somewhat flexible. In Classic Boating Magizine there is an ask the expert section which often deals with issues like this. For anyone who loves wooden boats this is a must read magazine. Good luck.

[DonziJon]

West System does not flex as wooden boats are designed to do. The newest systems that I am aware of is a 5200 bottom along with CPES. This is a clear penetrating epoxy sealer. It saturates the wood but still allows it to be somewhat flexible. In Classic Boating Magizine there is an ask the expert section which often deals with issues like this. For anyone who loves wooden boats this is a must read magazine. Good luck.

The guy who runs the Q&A in that magazine is Don Danenberg. He has a couple of restoration shops and is quite a character. He has two books out on restoring old runabouts called "How To Restore Your Wooden Runabout", (Vol 1 & 2) available through the magazine. This month both volumes are on sale for $38. incl S&H (560 pages total, with lots of pictures.) The magazine is hard to find on newstands though. It's a Mom and Pop publication with a small circulation out of Wisconsin. Comes out every two months. A must have if you have a wooden boat. Classic Boating (262) 567-4800.

Don doesn't believe in using "Hard Epoxy" on wooden boats. As you indicate, it's 5200 and CPES, which as Don describes it ..is not really an epoxy at all but is made from wood fibers so it soaks in and remains flexible.

[gcarter]

I have one of Don's books and have read it thouroughly, and have noted his comments on epoxy.
As I mentioned earlier, WEST System is intended to be made up of epoxy saturated wood pieces about 3" wide, as long as possible, and no more than 1/8" thick, 3/32" is better. You end up with a composite construction that no longer has all the characteristics of wood. It should be considerably stronger and completely water proof. But obviously it's a lot more involved with a build-up approaching 3/8" thick of pieces this thin.
I doubt if many builders are making the effort.

[DonziJon]

I believe Bill Morgan buiilt his boats Exactly as the originals.....EXCEPT he used West Epoxy everywhere. I think the Turcott Brothers Garwoods also did the same. I've not heard of any problems with those boats however. I don't think the numbers of Garwoods were anywhere near the Morgan Hackers. I have seen problems with Morgan boats, not just rot in the bottom. Twisted boats, strange shearlines, oil stains under the varnish, gouges in the wood, curtains in the final varnish coat.Bill Morgan Has been a BIG contributer to the Antique Boat Museum in Clayton, NY.

[gcarter]

I believe Bill Morgan buiilt his boats Exactly as the originals.....EXCEPT he used West Epoxy everywhere. I think the Turcott Brothers Garwoods also did the same. I've not heard of any problems with those boats however. I don't think the numbers of Garwoods were anywhere near the Morgan Hackers. I have seen problems with Morgan boats, not just rot in the bottom. Twisted boats, strange shearlines, oil stains under the varnish, gouges in the wood, curtains in the final varnish coat.Bill Morgan Has been a BIG contributer to the Antique Boat Museum in Clayton, NY.
I believe you're right about the construction of these boats.
If it were a true WEST built boat, it would be built on a male mold and all of the layers would be perpendicular and diagonal except the outer layer. Then the framework would be installed inside. That's a BIG difference.

[Pismo]

I agree with the new method using CPES and 5200. I have been reading those articles in Classic Boating to which I subscribe and they have been very helpful. A penetrating epoxy sounds much better. Morgan builds his boats ribs and keel first then puts the bottom and sides on. So I need to find a repair shop that will using these new procedures and penetrating epoxies, does anybody know of one?

Thanks to all for the help.

[gcarter]

Try Jamie at Lakeside.....
He's in Pennsylvania. He can probably do it the way you want.

http://www.lakesiderestorations.com/

[mphatc]

there's several shops in the Lakes Region of NH that are qualified to take on a project like this. Here's two that have done more high quality restorations than most . . .

New England Boat and Motor Company in Laconia
Muller Boatworks, 45 Route 103, Sunapee, NH, 03782; 603-863-8146; muller@srnet.com.


Mario

[DonziJon]

Wayne Mocksfield, who used to own "Waynes Marine" on Lake Hopatcong, New Jersey used to restore old boats and still does brokerage for them. Waynes Marine was involved in the restoration of the "Sixth" Chris Craft runabout to be built with the Chris Craft name. They named it "Godfather" and it has a Curtis OX-5 V-8 installed. I don't know if Wayne was involved with that boat or not but the boatyard seemed to be quite proficient at both traditional construction as well as "New" technology.

Wayne has ads in Classic Boating and Wooden Boat. When he retired he went to Florida, but I think he's back in NJ again. From his add: "Antique Boat Specialist": Mount Arlington, NJ (973) 663-8363. I'm sure Wayne would have some pointers as to who would be qualified to replace the bottom of a Morgan Hacker, or any antique. He has been in the wooden boat business probably longer than anyone whos name you will run across today.http://www.donzi.net/ubb/cool.gif

[DonziJon]

there's several shops in the Lakes Region of NH that are qualified to take on a project like this. Here's two that have done more high quality restorations than most . . .

New England Boat and Motor Company in Laconia
Muller Boatworks, 45 Route 103, Sunapee, NH, 03782; 603-863-8146; muller@srnet.com.


Mario

I was looking for the address for Bo Millers shop yesterday on the net and didn't find it. Both he and Mark Mason (NEBM) are probably two of the top builders and restorers in New England. They have worked on some of the most important and valuable antique runabouts and race boats in the country.

[rustnrot]

As I read thru these posts I gotta say.....you guys are VERY well informed. This whole epoxy-wood discussion would have been waaay different 10 years ago! What amazes me is these Hackers *had* this trouble 10 years ago and they *still* have it! Why they do not learn I do not know. Changing out a bottom is not rocket science or even close. At the risk of oversimplifing it is not much worse than framing your house. The fit and finish on a bottom is no where near as critical as the topsides. That said, you certainly do not have to seek out the "best" restorer. The problem you have is size, that is a big boat and makes the project much harder. I have done up to 19' and that is all I will tackle due to shop space, etc. Out of curiousity what kind of prices are you getting? There is no way it will be less than $12k and it could be double depending on the shop.....

[DonziJon]

New England Boat and Motor. Laconia, NH. Mark Mason. (603) 528-3411

Wayne's Marine, Inc. Lake Hopatcong, NJ John P. Kadimik II (201) 663-3214

I agree. You don't need the best "restorer" for your "Non Historical" bottom job but it might be fun to find out what the big guys think as a point of reference.

[Pismo]

I am certainly not after the best restorer since as stated it is not really an antique classic like a true 20s or 30s Hacker. I just want someone who will use the newer techniques, CPES etc. Morgan is still doing the non-penetrating hard West system bottoms so I might be right back where I started in a few years.

[Pismo]

I love your handle....RustnRot.