Lake George Tragedy?

[chappy]

Can any of the Lake George guys shed any light on this topic? A friend of mine at work today asked me about a tour boat capsizing where over twenty people passed away. Is this a rumor or fact? I can't find anything on TV. Hopefully just a rumor.

Rich

[Cuda]

Looks like a real tragedy.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051002/ap_on_re_us/boat_overturned

[mattyboy]

really eriee today as we were out on my lake I mentioned the tragedy that happened in 75 or 76 on Greenwood lake when the "AMERICRETE" a 38 foot chris craft crusier capzied on the lake durnig a fall foilage run same thing senior citizens same weather perfectly calm sunny clear , the findings came out the boat was top heavy most people were up top and they were making a slight turn and the driver mentioned some thing interesting and people shifted to the side to see it and the boat rolled over also found out the owner driver was not certified to be a tour boat capt.


not speculating on the reasons on this one or trying to draw conclusions but it just spooked me when i read it

My prayers to all involved

[Bob]

I worked for Shoreline cruises for about 7 years in the mid-late 70's. The owner, Jim Quirk is a real stand-up guy. In fact, his son Denis was a Donzi dealer on the lake for a while.
Jim was always very safety conscious and would chew out or fire any on his marina employees that didn't take things seriously. As far as qualified captains, one of the other employees that I worked with was a retired NYC harbor pilot.

[Walt. H.]

This was posted on AOL news, here the link:
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051002181709990009&ncid=NWS00010000000001

[mattyboy]

does anyone know where on the lake all reports say west shore but where???
One eyewitness on the news said it was in a cove where the boat turns around for it's trip back to dock, he said it got caught in a bigger cruise boat wake and just rolled over on it's port side

again my prayers to all involved

[markdonzi]

Yesterday the Ethan Allen a 38 foot Dyer cruise boat capsized just south of Cramer Point on the East side of Lake George. Cramer Point bay is just North of Hearthstone Public camp ground and south of Green Harbor. The lake was calm but the boat was making a hard left turn and hit a large wake. Witnesses say the wake was from the Mohican but they are denying it saying the Mohican was several miles north of the capsizing point at the time. Perhaps because you are responsible for your wake!.
The boat was filled with senior citizens celebrating the foliage and an 89th birthday. The boat had plastic windscreens on the side making it diffucult ( in my opinion) for the people to escape the overturned boat. The boat sank within 10 minutes. Most of the deceased were trapped inside the boat or suffered heart attacks or could not swim. Rescuers in passing boats were at the scene within 3 minutes but 20 of the 48 on board perished. The captain was fully licensed, a retired NYS Trooper and had been a captain on the lake for several years. When the boat hit the wake the plastic lawn chairs the people had been sitting in slid to one side flipping the boat quickly. The boat was at its capacity and not officially overloaded at the time. a great tragedy. :shocking: :shocking:
mark donzi Diamond Point NY

[Carl C]

the boat was top heavy most people were up top and they were making a slight turn and the driver mentioned some thing interesting and people shifted to the side to see it and the boat rolled over This is the only explanation that makes sense, certainly a boat wake couldn't capsize a boat this size.:(

[markdonzi]

The Mohican can throw a pretty good wake. Have launched about 15 feet in the air with my old 16 foot donzi.

markdonzi

[mattyboy]

Mark thank you for the info

carl, in that post i was referring to the accident on my lake 30 years ago and to the fact that I had not thought about it in years but I thought about it yesterday when we were out on my lake then when we got in and i read the news about lake george it spooked me, the accident on my lake was caused by negligence and indifference I was not referring to the lk george accident
as stated by Bob the tour boats on lk george are run very well I can only imagine the numbers of people who have safely cruised that lake over the years
The Ethan Allen was not a 2 tiered boat but what i would call like a naval launch rounded bow and stern fairly high gunwales the helm was at the stern and passengers sat in front of the helm, as mark said i think the windscreens caused people to get trapped instead of maybe just getting thrown in the water

the wake issue will be a big factor how big and who's was it

terrible tragedy for all involved

[Carl C]

Unbelievable that another boat's wake could flip a 40' single tier boat. The glass sides and elderly passengers explain the drownings, but how could a boat this size flip? Wouldn't an experienced captain have seen and turned into a wake this size?

[mattyboy]

I guess the NTSB will be asking the same questions this morning
and has Mark said those boats can throw huge wakes

[BRIAN73]

Hi,


I was going around Diamond island around 2:50, in my familys boat and noticed the mohican going pretty fast down the West side of Lake George. That would have meant that he would have passed the Ethan Allen a few minutes before.

There is know doubt in my mind that the massive wake from the Mohican caused the Ethan Allen to shift and capsize!!!!

Who ever claims that the Mohican was not in the same area is incorrect.


Brian

My prayers go out to all who were effected

[Marlin275]

Boat captain blames waves

Warren County Sheriff Larry Cleveland said the boat captain reported they were hit by waves from another vessel, he tried to steer out of them and the boat went over.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051003.wboat1003/BNStory/International/

[markdonzi]

Brian,
The owners and operators of the Mohican are claiming they were no where near the accident site. Very interesting. I know for a fact how big the wakes from the Mohican can get especially in the fall when they let it rip.

markdonzi

[mattyboy]

so the ethan allen was on the west side of the lake,
and the wake just doesn't decipate, if the mohican had past recently it's wake was around the area , my first expierence with the mohican was at the first dustoff I was heading into the village and passed it coming out by speaker hecht island it was a mile to my port I didn't give it much thought then 5 minutes later my memory was jogged as I saw the swells just ahead and had just enough time to slow down and take a little beating and some air
ever since then when I am out on the lake my daughter is the big boat spotter
don't I recall someone getting killed hitting a cruise boat wake a few years back

[joseph m. hahnl]

Matty: I know what you mean by erie .Today we were talking about the accident at work. I said I took a picture of a tour boat at the fall picnic. I said it was probably that boat.It turns out I took the picture of the Mohecan the boat that allegedly waked the Etahn Allen. I posted it under the fall picnic pictures page 4. I find it hard to believe that the wake was the only factor in the capsizing of the Ethan Allen. The captain stated he was turning left and the passengers stated they all slid to one side of the boat.It sounds like a compound factors were at work. To me it sounds like pilot error .

joe

[turbo2256]

Noticed on the news last night a Donzi owner and family was one of the first there.

[Rootsy]

i saw a dark colored 22 at the scene on fox news the day it happened...

[myfinancialadviser]

I saw the guy with the 22 donzi on the news last night as well believe his name is mike. He was being interviewed apparantly him and his wife and two kids were eye witnesses of the boat going over, they actually told their kids to duck down so they would not see it. they also got to the scene and rescued i believe 3 from drowning. their account on the news was amazing. the wife said she was hanging over the side of the boat with both arms holding on to two individuals that were pleading for her not to let go..... real life heros.




I'm glad someone else saw the 22.... I was beginning to wonder :eek:

[markdonzi]

I wanted to post an update because a few things I stated earlier were dead wrong. The Ethan Allen did have wooden benches attached to the floor not plastic lawn furniture as was originally reported. The passengers slid along the benches to one side when they hit the wakes.
Also the plastic wind shields on the side of the boat were up not down, so people would have been able to swim out the sides.
The NTSB is trying to recreate the accident today and thinks a new top of fiberglass and wood installed several years ago to replace a canvas top may have led to the boat being top heavy.
Unless they can recreate the "tour boat wake" the Ethan Allen hit as it was turning it will be hard to recreate the circumstances.

markdonzi

[mattyboy]

Mark ,
If the NTSB can put back together a 747 blown into a billion pieces they can recreate a big wake, they will be using the ethan allens sister ship from the reports

[Tony]

About half of the deceased were from Michigan...a fall color tour group. An article in today's Lansing State Journal talks about capacity, and what the NY state standard is for per person weight...150 lb. average for every man, woman, and child on board. The Coast Guard assumes a 140 lb. average. The article goes on to say that there has been talk of revising these standards due to Americans propensity for being overweight! Also, there were very few children on board.

In addition, the owner is in a bit of hot water for not having two crew on board. The only crew member was the 74 year old captain, Richard Paris.

[turbo2256]

News said they were just refitted with fiberglass canopys they were canvas.

[markdonzi]

The bank I work in is 3 doors down from the Georgian Motel where the tour group was staying. We offered and helped a few of the survivors with wire transfers or cashing checks as some of them lost their wallets or purses in the accident. Lots of sad stories. One gentleman needed to wire money to pay for his wifes funeral expenses in Lake george. Married for 53 years. Sad stuff!!

markdonzi

[joel3078]

Below is a link to pictures of this event.
http://www.poststar.com/galleries/breaking_news/photo_gallery.asp?folder_name=Ethan_Allen_--_Tragedy_on_the_Lake

My old pontoon boat sank part way - Us guys are all way over 150lbs and had too many people on the front end at once. Submerged 1/2 the boat and then there was a mad dash to the back of the boat. No damage and nobody hurt on that one. The 150lb body weight average for boating only works for a family with kids nowadays. If it's all adults, the average is not 150lbs per person.

Hell, I'd challange ya to find a boat at full head count capacity were only women were on board and the average weight is 150lbs per person. Come to think of it, if your girlfriend/wife is less than 150lbs, you're probably a lucky dude.:yes:

[olredalert]

-------Hey!,,,Was the guy pictured, Brian Hart the DONZI owner??? Just thought it would be nice to post some info on him, as I think he should be recognized for his help in this horific situation, as should all others who had a posative input.......Bill S

[Tony]

Correction...19 of the 20 lost were from Michigan.

Another story today states the average weight of the passengers was 174 lbs. Although they were not over the passenger limit of 48 people, they were well over the weight limit that assumes an average of 140 lbs. per passenger.

Other factors the NTSB are looking at is the modifications made to the boat (heavier canopy, higher deck), one crew member instead of two, and the wake that may or may not have contributed.

[mattyboy]

I also read a report on the modifications to the boat over the years making it top heavy, plus an interview with a former capt of the boat that said do to the seating configuration the boat would always list to the port even when empty, seems the bench seating was design with a longer bench for 3 people on the port side and aisle way and a smaller bench for 2 on the starboard side

I saw a pc generated animation on NBC NY website that didn't make much sense based on my limited knowledge of the lake that green habor and cramer point are on the west side of the lake somewhere between treasure cove to the village it showed the boat heading out of the cove I would think south towards the village, if he were making a left turn into the wake and out into the lake but then rolling onto it's right side??? as if it rode the crest of the wake then flipped the port side up making the starboard side go under throwing all the people on the left to the right???? I thought it rolled to the port side??? which means if he was heading south out of the harbor when he turned to port he stuffed it a little forcing the port side down and throwing the people to the left and having the water breach the gunwales
but the animation is gone this morning from the website

also on nbc this morning they said the sister ship failed a stability test with 10 people aboard!!!

Bill what donzi does mr Hart have the one everyone saw was a dark color sided 22 at least that's the one clip I saw

and yes he should be commended and it should be publicized that a responsible boater did what all should do render aid to a vessel in destress,
for in the same report an interview with a blowboater blamed the dangerous conditions on the lake on the 30 foot type cigarette boats who have no concern for the lake and for safety he said anyone who goes out in a boat under 24 feet is taking his life in his hands?? typical BS :rolleyes: I'll see if I can find the link

[joseph m. hahnl]

for in the same report an interview with a blowboater blamed the dangerous conditions on the lake on the 30 foot type cigarette boats who have no concern for the lake and for safety he said anyone who goes out in a boat under 24 feet is taking his life in his hands?? typical BS :rolleyes: I'll see if I can find the link


YES YES YES, the typical Blow hard allways blaming some one else.
I have more curtesy and respect for my fellow boaters than any one of those sail boat people . especially the pontoon boaters.The key word to the accident
is menuver"did i spell that right" thru the wake. Ding Ding Ding. Pilot error in an unstable boat that was over loaded.
Not only did he have to go thru a wake but he had to drive around and avoid the jack ass in the blow boat who was carelesly in the way giving the guy in the cigar style boat the finger.

We all know that large wakes can be dangerous. To ensinuate that a small 30 ft boat would leave awake that could capsize a boat.That is totaly absured.

I agree with matty that he stuffed it. It got water in the boat and it flipped over. Much like a canoe does with water in it.


When you think 40 ft boat you think that is huge like a Bertram,Hatterass or Viking. But if you look at the Eathan Allen it looks very small. like a giant canoe.electric boat or even a sail boat. It has a round bottom and low gunnels. It does not look like a stable boat for numerous passengers.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was'nt even engineered for the pupose of a tour boat. A true tour boat to me is like the Mohecan.

joe

[TuxedoPk]

Joe- You've got to be kidding, right? How can you accuse someone of being a jack ass in a sailboat carelessly in the way of a power boat? When not under power sailboats have the right of way meaning that they MUST maintain a constant course and speed.

As someone who happens to enjoy both I've got to take the position that most of the people I know who sail tend to know the rules of the road better than those who powerboat. Now this may not apply to the majority of the board but it did hold true for me. I jumped into powerboating w/o knowing squat. When it came to sailing I took some lessons, read lots of books, and learned alot about general seamanship that I really needed to know when I was powerboating.

For those who grew up boating, this probably doesn't hold true, but for those who one day decided to join the boating world, I do believe it holds true. My guess is the average pontoon boater or small craft boater hasn't read Chapman, Annapolis, or the equivalent.

When it comes to boating accidents caused by intoxication, unfortunately it is us powerboaters who tend to drive up the statistics.

I'd bet that a 22' sailboat in the same conditions would have righted itself with no problem. I'm inclined to believe that Matty's theory combined with the hull type was the cause. This appears to simply be the wrong hull type for the current type of water conditions up at Lake George.

The powerboating world- cruisers, runabouts, offshore have some really great people amoung its ranks. Unfortunately, perhaps because of the thrill of driving over 6mph, it also attracts a disproportionate share of aholes who are dangers on the water. Add to this the number of jetski aholes and its really disproportionate.

Where I live there is licensing requirement for boating. Personally I would like to see this changed and have a license or safe boating course requirement mandatory. I can honestly say looking back that I was a danger to other boaters when I started w/o sufficient knowlege and I know I wasn't the only one out on the waters lacking the knowlege and skills to be a safe boater.

[mattyboy]

let me clear up my statement "boaters" weather they be sailers, powerboaters, kyackers are all boaters providing they apply good seamanship, when I said BLOWBOATER I was referring to this elitist, pompous asshole who thinks the sun rises and sets on his own ass, this accident has nothing to do with powerboaters alcohol careless speed demons in their 30 foot cigarette type boats and for it to appear in the article ticked me off weather the reporter, paper had an agenda it was clear admiral spalding had one
this was a tragic chain of events that was set into motion when the boat was modified , the age and condition of the passengers, the wake, the size of the group, the lack of a first mate
all things that taken by themselves would not be tragic
my prayers to all involved
and maybe this will update the current NYS and USCG weight requirements
maybe a PFD requirement for elderly or infirm passengers
I don't want to turn this into a political or philosophical debate and I hate being over governed but when lives are lost things must be learned from that tragedy and precautions taken to prevent future occurances

[BUIZILLA]

maybe a PFD requirement for elderly or infirm passengers
in retrospect, this is a great idea.
JH

[Cuda]

When not under power sailboats have the right of way meaning that they MUST maintain a constant course and speed.

.
Better read back up on the regs, this is not always true.

[TuxedoPk]

If my memory of COLREGS serves me correctly, the pecking order is:
- Vessel not under command
- Vessel restricted in its ability to manuever
- Vessel engaged in commercial fishing
- Sail boat not under power
- Power boat

Considering that this was Lake George and narrow channels and lack of manueverability don't come into play, nor does commercial fishing, I'm hard pressed to think of a condition where it doesn't hold true. Did you challenge my statement based on the pecking order on all bodies of water or on Lake George?


Better read back up on the regs, this is not always true.

[joseph m. hahnl]

[QUOTE=TuxedoPk]Joe- You've got to be kidding, right? How can you accuse someone of being a jack ass in a sailboat carelessly in the way of a power boat? When not under power sailboats have the right of way meaning that they MUST maintain a constant course and speed.

QUOTE]



Tux: absolutly I was kidding. I allways give sailboats and non power boats the right of way . As you said many power boaters are ignorant to the laws.
It is for this very reason that NH has the law. Right of safe passage.The operator must maintain head way spead with in 150 ft of any thing "Yes any thing". I was actually thanked by the lake association president for allways slowing down for him and not leaving a wake. He told me I was the only one that he had ever seen do that. As a kid I use to sail in my dads 12 ft Cape Dorey. I am no stranger to sailing.As I said I respect all of my fellow boaters.
What I meant was some people think because our boats are loud and fast that they are and we as operators are dangerous.It is not based on fact but feeling. Because sailing is peaceful and tranquil. They get upset when this loud ass boat going super fast spoils their peace. same with the owners of property on the water ways .So it is this hatred that would cause some one to say "If it wasn't for those damn cigarette boats racing up and down the lake it would never have happened." WE all have this same Hatred for PWC but not all PWC operators are ignorant to their suroundings.
So as not to dwell on this because it has nothing to do with the tragedy.

Yes I was Kidding.

I stick with my original statement that it was combined forces and factors But as it goes, It is to me definatly operator error and or negligence.


joe

[joseph m. hahnl]

Better read back up on the regs, this is not always true.


Cuda is right if the sail boat is overtaking another vessle it must yield the right of way.

joe

[TuxedoPk]

While I enjoy the sound of my BBC running down the river, I think that many in the power boating community have rightly created such ill feelings towards our types of boats.

While I don't own waterfront property, I would hate to have boats running at really loud levels and interrupting my tranquility. Yes, they should expect to hear some noise, but lets face it, many boats emit obnoxious levels of noise. I equate it to a car with 2k rims pulling up in town with its windows down and stereo at full volume- Want to blow your ears on a country road in the middle of nowhere- go for it. In town around others- be respectful and limit the noise.

As for speed, I've never heard any of the people who sail complain about speed of powerboats... just running high speed at too close a proximity to their boats. There is enough water out there that this problem is unnecessarily caused by a few inconsiderate boaters. Personally I enjoy watching the gofast boats while I'm sailing... it's the 40' cruisers who have all the water in the world to enjoy but insist on passing at 30knots within 30' or so of another boat that I'd like to shoot.

"What I meant was some people think because our boats are loud and fast that they are and we as operators are dangerous.It is not based on fact but feeling. Because sailing is peaceful and tranquil. They get upset when this loud ass boat going super fast spoils their peace. same with the owners of property on the water ways .So it is this hatred that would cause some one to say "If it wasn't for those damn cigarette boats racing up and down the lake it would never have happened." WE all have this same Hatred for PWC but not all PWC operators are ignorant to their suroundings.
So as not to dwell on this because it has nothing to do with the tragedy."

[TuxedoPk]

I've never been on a sailboat overtaking a powered boat but that is 100% correct.


Cuda is right if the sail boat is overtaking another vessle it must yield the right of way.

[DonziJon]

I very impressed with the amount of "heat" I'm seeing in these posts, and I'm a little suprised. I'm new to this forum and frankly never expected to see this. I started out as a powerboater on Greenwood Lake (NY) with a Sid-Craft with a 20H in the late fifties. Since then, my boating was always SAIL. Ten years ago I got the Donzi I always admired (something about the sound) when one would cruise by me while my 32" C & C sailboat was becalmed. My fellow sail boaters, the people I sailed with, rarely had any negative comments about power boaters. Maybe it was just a different crowd.

I have seen the term "BLOW BOATERS" before, in a magizine called "Hot Boats" that I pick up on occassion, and discounted it as an uninformed individual who needed time to gain some life experience. I'm definately Not Offended.. I just continue to be amazed. There are ignorant people out there on the water these days, both power and sail. It seems the only qualifications required today to go boating is CASH. Seamanship is an option. :lookaroun

[mattyboy]

DonziJon
Greenwood lake in the 50's that's when my parents bought their house up here you were around in the hayday when the lake was a ny city summer hot spot lots of things have changed, I used the term blow boater as a derogatory name and not to throw all sailors into that category has many sailors are good boaters and good people , the term blowboater to me doesn't describe the method of perpulsion of their vessel but more the hot air that eminates from them that the waters are some thru history theirs and no powered vessel has a place on their water

don't forget the term limited manueverability is not only for a large boat with a large turning radius or sluggish handling but goes for a small boat a drift ,or with water skiers in the water as well has larger vessel that needs to stay more in the center of the channel due to it's draft

[Cuda]

If my memory of COLREGS serves me correctly, the pecking order is:
- Vessel not under command
- Vessel restricted in its ability to manuever
- Vessel engaged in commercial fishing
- Sail boat not under power
- Power boat

Considering that this was Lake George and narrow channels and lack of manueverability don't come into play, nor does commercial fishing, I'm hard pressed to think of a condition where it doesn't hold true. Did you challenge my statement based on the pecking order on all bodies of water or on Lake George?
No, you got it right, I just wanted to point out that a sailboat not under power is not ALWAYS at the top of the list. People need to know all the rules, not just the one's that pertain to Lake George. They could save someone's life.

[mattyboy]

Tux
ever heard of the narrows and the MINNIE_HA_HA :) although they don't go into the narrows they do go thru some small channels or no wake zones between the islands on the main lake and well I guess they call it the narrows for the same reason at 1000 islands the 40 acres is called 40 acres now there's a piece of water that would throw a non boater for a loop

[TuxedoPk]

I've seen the Minnie_ha_ha but am not familiar with the narrows you mention. To the best of my understanding any boat under sail would be the stand on vessel and the Minnie would have to fall off. Of course if a collision were imminent, the sail boat would be required to take evasive action.

For that matter, when I'm out sailing on a 26' in NY harbor, I am the stand on vessel and the Staten Island Ferry or Hudson River Ferries must change their course if necessary.

That said, it sometimes does make sense as the stand on vessel to make a change in direction- just do it in a way that is very obvious to the other pilot as to your intention.


Tux
ever heard of the narrows and the MINNIE_HA_HA :) although they don't go into the narrows they do go thru some small channels or no wake zones between the islands on the main lake and well I guess they call it the narrows for the same reason at 1000 islands the 40 acres is called 40 acres now there's a piece of water that would throw a non boater for a loop

[JPR]

I am addicted to both sailing and powerboating. It is amazing that at 6 kts in a sailboat in heavy traffic the s**t that happens on a racecourse. It is all about RELATIVE speed. I have the great good fortune of (in the summer) leaving work at 5:00 o'clock, jumping ito a fast (18' hourston w/ a 200 hp merc) boat and running into vancouver to go racing ever wednesday in the summer. Being on the water, focussing on what is in front of you here and now is what boating is all about to me. I can never afford, nor want, to race offshore power boats, but I feel that I can be dialed into a very competitive, intense and fun racing endevour with sailboats and still play in powerboats. The two are definately complementary, not mutually exclusive.

[Lenny]

I am addicted to both sailing and powerboating. It is amazing that at 6 kts in a sailboat in heavy traffic the s**t that happens on a racecourse. It is all about RELATIVE speed. I have the great good fortune of (in the summer) leaving work at 5:00 o'clock, jumping ito a fast (18' hourston w/ a 200 hp merc) boat and running into vancouver to go racing ever wednesday in the summer. Being on the water, focussing on what is in front of you here and now is what boating is all about to me. I can never afford, nor want, to race offshore power boats, but I feel that I can be dialed into a very competitive, intense and fun racing endevour with sailboats and still play in powerboats. The two are definately complementary, not mutually exclusive.

I raced Lasers, Hobies, Lightnings, Flying "V's" etc... Powerboats are MORE fun.... :)

The smile is worth it.

I still love sailing, if it IS windy and I am in a wetsuit, and there is hiking gear/trapeze.

I grew "up" :rolleyes: in Kitsilano and sailed past every Freighter ever moored in my tenure. And , I , ALSO, beat EVERY "kid" in a Laser (jib model) with my one wing " OK" from England that dared to come out from the Yacht Club in Kitsilano... death rolls etc... bring it on :D

Those were the days, and I wont talk about stealing the crabs from the traps, of the deck hands that laid them, and the "SCRUMPTOUS" dinners they provided 3000 feet offshore behind a 1000' Freighter and a language barrier. :D

ooohhhhhh, man, was that fun :)

Sitting,...flying :eek: , in hulls, with Trapeze, running at about 15 knots, downwind, full on, 7 " Dungeness Crab on the floor, feet up, and FLYING, downwind... I still feel it.. :D Take the boat out, go to Safeway, buy a steak, go back to the basement suite, fire up the bar-b-que, live like a KING, :yes:

[JPR]

I'm not sure anyone outside of Vancouver would get that post, but it is right on, We live in an amazing spot, I saw those pictures from blueliner today of Indian Arm and almost thought it was Princess Lousia Inlet. My favorite all-time boating pic is of my wife driving my old Bertram 25 sportfish up princess louisa at about 30 knots. She is on the flybridge, I took it from the bow, the wake stretches out a long way...not on digital or I would show you. We live in an amazing spot.

[Rootsy]

Want to blow your ears on a country road in the middle of nowhere- go for it.

in my neighborhood "the country" we jus shoot these kinda folk... they're obviously up to no good and they're scaring the cows n pigs eh... :shocking: :shocking: :tongue:

[TuxedoPk]

Lenny- Never knew you once sailed. Was also surprised when Harbormaster told me he used to sail also.

I envy you guys who started boating both sail and power at an early age. I missed out on what seems like a lifetime of enjoyment on the water starting so late in life.


I raced Lasers, Hobies, Lightnings, Flying "V's" etc... Powerboats are MORE fun.... :)

[TuxedoPk]

While the Lake George incident was definately a tragedy, I'm really surprised to see how much continuing national news coverage this event has been receiving. Has anyone found the coverage exceeded what they would have predicted?

[Cuda]

One of the goals I set for myself several years ago, was to learn how to sail. I still have never been on a sailboat. :(

[mattyboy]

Tux,
you missed my point you generalized lake george as some wide open body of water the narrows is just that islands submerged rocks coves tight channels and as I said the big tour boats don't go up there for that reason but some big cruisers do so you have to know the rules of the road, yes on the hudson in wide open waters what you say is true and actually a tug towing barges are the top of the peckin order watch the ferries around them!!! but come into a channel and meet a big boy that can't alter course or turn in a channel in a tight river he's the stand on vessel and if the choice is him or you guess what.
again none of this is a part of this tragedy
maybe like mtv we should have an UNPLUGGED section here for you guys ;)

looks like the NTSB will return the Ethan Allen to the lake for more testing

[DonziJon]

(1958) OH the Nostalgia: I remember the sound of a "Quickie' on Greenwood lake at 7:00AM. You could hear it literally miles away. The sound would radiate off the surrounding hills. I don't know if there were sound ordinances in effect in those days or not.

Thats about the only time you could take out a "Hydro" or "Utility" and get it up on plane and open it up. As soon as a few family boats came out, or the wind picked up, it was too rough and you had to take it home and try not to get swamped on the way.

There was a little inboard hydro named "Lively Lady" that hung in a boathouse in the "Arm". In those days it was already getting old and leaked badly, so the owner had to get it up on plane fast before it sank. For any of you familiar with the lake, the boathouse was right next to the bridge in the "Arm". Just the other side of the bridge was where the "U.S. Coast Guard" lived for the summer and kept their boat. Speeding in the arm was not acceptible in those days and it was a constant chore for us kids to keep an eye out for the "Coasties". The reason for the Coasties you ask?? "Interstate Lake".

Since this post is supposed to be about "Tour Boats", does anyone who knows Greenwood Lake remember the Tourboats "Duke" and the "Duchess"?
Anyone who can remember where these two boats were berthed can collect a FREE Beer at Sullivans. I think it's still there.

[TuxedoPk]

maybe like mtv we should have an UNPLUGGED section here for you guys ;)


Now that's a funny line!

[mattyboy]

The duke and the dutchess were docked at Grecks maplewood inn now called anton's hotel opened no bar or restaurant every kid who had a boat on the lake jumped the wake of the duke atleast once, and they stopped serving beer at sullivan's along time a go it's a rowing club now I think and a private home , the boat house is long gone but the coast gaurd auxilary still patrols the lake not too many landmarks from the 50's around maybe murphy's and the new continental hotel, breezy point inn and the castle are still around, the longpond is no more the bluebird gone as well, the ferncrest or cork and bottle gone too

[mattyboy]

here's the latest,
they interviewed someone from CDMA's school

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1192453

[DonziJon]

The duke and the dutchess were docked at Grecks maplewood inn now called anton's hotel opened no bar or restaurant every kid who had a boat on the lake jumped the wake of the duke atleast once, and they stopped serving beer at sullivan's along time a go it's a rowing club now I think and a private home , the boat house is long gone but the coast gaurd auxilary still patrols the lake not too many landmarks from the 50's around maybe murphy's and the new continental hotel, breezy point inn and the castle are still around, the longpond is no more the bluebird gone as well, the ferncrest or cork and bottle gone too

Mattyboy you're bringing back more memorys. I jumped the wake of the Duke a couple of times and one of those times I didn't make it. It's a little foggy, but I seem to remember the transom screw clamps on the motor coming loose and the motor going overboard in mid jump. The only thing preventing the motor from going to the bottom was the steering cables. I had a Sid-Craft B Utility with a Merc 20H on the back. I got the motor back up and running but it was a little embarrasing. The Duke had a boatload of Nuns aboard. That year I had a summer job at Sullivans renting out paddle boats. :smile:

[gold-n-rod]

While the Lake George incident was definately a tragedy, I'm really surprised to see how much continuing national news coverage this event has been receiving. Has anyone found the coverage exceeded what they would have predicted?

I agree. Here's this afternoon's AP coverage. Reporters are out at the captain's house trying to interview him.

The comments about beer are interesting.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MI_BOAT_OVERTURNED_MIOL-?SITE=MITRA&SECTION=HOME

[joseph m. hahnl]

Tux,
you missed my point you generalized lake george as some wide open body of water the narrows is just that islands submerged rocks coves tight channels and as I said the big tour boats don't go up there for that reason but some big cruisers do so you have to know the rules of the road, yes on the hudson in wide open waters what you say is true and actually a tug towing barges are the top of the peckin order watch the ferries around them!!! but come into a channel and meet a big boy that can't alter course or turn in a channel in a tight river he's the stand on vessel and if the choice is him or you guess what.
again none of this is a part of this tragedy
maybe like mtv we should have an UNPLUGGED section here for you guys ;)

looks like the NTSB will return the Ethan Allen to the lake for more testing


It is also the law: That if it is unclear of the intent of any operator in any vessle that may cause a collision . You are to slow to headway spead or stop. I would imagine that would apply to any vessle. power or non power.

There is actually no such thing as a stand on boat. Yes you have the theoretical right of way,But if a collision occurs and you did nothing to prevent it and you said I was the stand on boat you would be sighted for neglegence and failing to yield.


It is truly amazing that the sister boat to the Eathan Allen preformed so poorly they were afraid to continue the testing.

joe

[TuxedoPk]

There is actually no such thing as a stand on boat. Yes you have the theoretical right of way,But if a collision occurs and you did nothing to prevent it and you said I was the stand on boat you would be sighted for neglegence and failing to yield.


Joe, you are right to the extent that every pilot must do whatever is required to avoid a collision, but there is such a thing as a stand on vessel. It is the vessel that has the legal obligation to hold its course and speed unless as you point out a collision is imminent.

[joseph m. hahnl]

Joe, you are right to the extent that every pilot must do whatever is required to avoid a collision, but there is such a thing as a stand on vessel. It is the vessel that has the legal obligation to hold its course and speed unless as you point out a collision is imminent.

Yes it is written that there is a thing legally called a stand on vessel .my point was the term would not hold up if you did nothing to prevent a collision. i dont think i would call it an obligation. But more a theoretical right of way. but as we have discussed there are all lot of ignorent people to the boating laws and they wouldn't Know which is the stand on boat. in that situation you would have to yield. Not only does the type of vessle determin right of way but also direction vessles are traveling.



joe:

[TuxedoPk]

Are you referring to :
-sailboats and the tack they are on
-sailboats windward/leeward situations
- boats under power when a vessel is approaching from dead ahead to 2 points abaft it's starboard beam?
- something else (if so please explain)


. Not only does the type of vessle determin right of way but also direction vessles are traveling.

[joseph m. hahnl]

Are you referring to :
-sailboats and the tack they are on
-sailboats windward/leeward situations
- boats under power when a vessel is approaching from dead ahead to 2 points abaft it's starboard beam?
- something else (if so please explain)

yes all of the above: and crossing paths were the port boat gives way to the starboard boat.

joe.