Wood Pellet / Corn Heating systems

[TuxedoPk]

I'm getting killed on heating costs and would like to see if an alternative energy burner makes sense. I currently have a 2 yo Peerless EC-ECT-05 oil burner with a 2.5 gph input and 286,000 btu gross output, 85% efficiency.
http://www.peerlessboilers.com/home/productcenter/index.cfm?fuseAction=details&psID=4

This was installed after the prior one stopped working and froze anticipating replacing all of the radiators in the house. After this unit was installed I decided to install Carrier's Infinity central air system and ran hot water lines to coils on each of the three blowers for providing heat. (The system has 3 compressors/blowers: 2-5ton, 1-3ton) http://www.residential.carrier.com/res/details/0,3041,CLI1_DIV109_ETI8551_MID3655,00.html

Does anyone know what systems I should be looking at for providing a lower cost heat? With oil as rediculous as it is and going up I'm thinking this may prove to be a worthwhile investment. I'm thinking that the current oil based burner can be a backup burner. Spending a day at home in the Winter shouldn't cost as much as a day in a Donzi in the Summer!

[BUIZILLA]

Tux, check my math here....

2.5gph is a HEALTHY fuel bill...

2.5gph x 24 hours a day x $3.00gal x 30 days a month = $5400 a month ??

that can't be right...


or can it ???

JH

[boxy]

Tux, I ran a pellet stove in my last house. Clean warm heat for about a $1 a day, the only drawback is you have to load the hopper. I'll give you any more info you need.

[TuxedoPk]

I guess it could be right if you ran the system 24/7... Last year the system was being installed and I didn't have any heat until Thanksgiving. I kept the heat low and on a programmable timer and if memory serves me correctly I spent a little under $5000 for the remainder of the Winter- but that still hurt.

I double checked the tag on the burner.. that's the model, and that's the gph printed on the tag.


Tux, check my math here....

2.5gph is a HEALTHY fuel bill...

2.5gph x 24 hours a day x $3.00gal x 30 days a month = $5400 a month ??

that can't be right...


or can it ???

JH

[TuxedoPk]

I've got a chute openning going into the basement burner room from the days when coal must have heated the house.

How many days worth of pellets can fit in a hopper? Where do you store the pellets prior to them going in the hoppper? Do you get one big delivery for the season or multiple deliveries? I'm having a hard time estimating the volume of pellets needed for a season's heat.


Tux, I ran a pellet stove in my last house. Clean warm heat for about a $1 a day, the only drawback is you have to load the hopper. I'll give you any more info you need.

[Ed Donnelly]

If your boilers have no trouble keeping up with the heat load during the coldest days, try dropping down to 2 gal nozzles. Are you running Riello burners? Remember that 85% is gross efficiency. Have your tech check stack temps with co2 readings. Get your o2 down as low as possible with your co under 40 ppm. Did you go with the Infinity air handlers( D.C. drive?) Are heat reclaims legal in your neck of the woods? What is your sq. footage? 13 tons of cooling is HUGE. Are the Infinities cooling only or heatpumps........Ed

[TuxedoPk]

Ed-No problem keeping up with the heat load. I have no idea what size nozzle I'm have- didn't even know there were nozzles until your post. Can I tell what size I have by visually looking at the system or do I need to contact the company that services the burner?

Yes, I'm running a Riello 40 F10 burner.

I had the system cleaned and efficiency tested last season. I believe they said that the temp/co2/efficiency were all good. How do I get the O2 down and know just how low it can get?

Yes, I have the Infinity air handlers. This chit was expensive. I could have purchased Chrome's 22 for what I paid to have the Carrier and ductwork installed. The Infinity is controlling the heat and a/c. The boiler heats the water which is sent up to heating coils at each blower. The blowers for the 3rd/4th floors are in the attic, and the 1'st and main floor blower is in the burner room- running thru Aprilaires on each system.

The first 5 ton unit is on a two zone system controlling the lowest level and main level of the house.

The second 5 ton unit is for the bedroom level and top levels of the house with the exclusion of the master bedroom suite.

The smaller unit controls the master bedroom, bath, and dressing room.

If memory serves me correctly, the master bedroom was a seperate system because the beams ran in opposite directions and getting the ductwork there would have been impossible.


If your boilers have no trouble keeping up with the heat load during the coldest days, try dropping down to 2 gal nozzles. Are you running Riello burners? Remember that 85% is gross efficiency. Have your tech check stack temps with co2 readings. Get your o2 down as low as possible with your co under 40 ppm. Did you go with the Infinity air handlers( D.C. drive?) Are heat reclaims legal in your neck of the woods? What is your sq. footage? 13 tons of cooling is HUGE. Are the Infinities cooling only or heatpumps........Ed

[boxy]

I used to buy pellets by the metric tonne. 50 - 20 kg bags. The hopper wouldn't hold much more than a couple of bags, but I'm sure you could modify the hopper hold more.
The pellets need to be kept dry, so unless you have a good dry storage area, you might want to but them in smaller quantities. They don't throw a lot of radiant heat, (like a woodstove does) but they blow a lot of hot air. The best way to harness it would be to direct it some how into your ventilation system.

[TuxedoPk]

Because of the size and configuration of my house I was thinking of a single pellet furnace rather than multiple stoves. Is this logical thinking? I could be way off but I'm thinking of a truck backing up and dumping pellets down a chute the way coal used to be delivered. I'm not picturing myself carrying pellet bags up and down multiple flights of steps. Please forgive me if I'm totally misunderstanding this.


I used to buy pellets by the metric tonne. 50 - 20 kg bags. The hopper wouldn't hold much more than a couple of bags, but I'm sure you could modify the hopper hold more.
The pellets need to be kept dry, so unless you have a good dry storage area, you might want to but them in smaller quantities. They don't throw a lot of radiant heat, (like a woodstove does) but they blow a lot of hot air. The best way to harness it would be to direct it some how into your ventilation system.

[Ed Donnelly]

A picture is worth a thousand words.. Now I see why you need so much cooling.

Your burner tech will know the nozzle size. It is stamped on the nozzle.
Your tech should have left a printout of all findings. You run the lowest o2 possible without creating maximum allowable co In Canada it is 40 ppm.
You may also have regulations on nox and sox.
Boxy is right on with the pellet system. Run a heat reclaim, cold air return in, supply air out.
I just priced out a small Infinity heat pump, with a DC drive (3 ton with a 4 ton evap.) for a friend of mine. A straight re and re. $12,000 Canadian installed. Went with a Goodman 13 seer (Amana) for $8,000. Make sure you have the DC drive system. Just ask the contractor. Also make sure you adjust your humidifiers as per temp changes. The humidity can effect your fuel consumtion by as much as 15%........Ed

[boxy]

I'm not sure Rich. I've never seen a pellet furnace, all I have experience with are the stand alone fireplace type stoves. They look sort of like a stand alone gas fireplace. I only used mine for supplemental heat. Unless there is a pellet mfg nearby I doubt you are going to get a truckload delivered, the sawmills that make them ship them buy the bag.

[TuxedoPk]

Ed- I'm not very knowlegeable on this so please help me with some basic questions as I don't understand everything (alot) of what you've said.

"You run the lowest o2 possible without creating maximum allowable co "
What does this mean?

"You may also have regulations on nox and sox."
Same question.

"Run a heat reclaim, cold air return in, supply air out."
Same question.

"Make sure you have the DC drive system."
What is the DC drive system? How can I tell if I've got it?

"Also make sure you adjust your humidifiers as per temp changes. The humidity can effect your fuel consumtion by as much as 15%"
I wanted to put a whole house humidifier in but was told that they didn't make one for the Infinity system that was large enough. What would you recommend? The humidity dropped pretty low last year. I know that lower temp feels warmer with more humidity but didn't know hom much it would save on fuel!

"A picture is worth a thousand words.. Now I see why you need so much cooling."
I was pretty shocked when I was told how much cooling they wanted to install also. I'm glad that you think it seems reasonable for the house- It's always an uncomfortable feeling making such large purchases on items you start off knowing absolutely nothing about. Last year I also had the fun and expense of tearing off and re-roofing.

[Ed Donnelly]

Tux; I will send you a PM in the morning....Ed

[gcarter]

Is it allways this complicated living up there?
Is it all worth it?
I try to keep my house @ 68* at night & 72* during the day, mainly to control the humidity. My electric bill this summer has been $240/mo, the highest it's ever been. It goes down to $60-$100/mo. during the nwinter.
We like Canadians, we're allways willing to take their money every winter.
Come on South.

[Walt. H.]

TuxedoPk.

I supplement my heat with a Witfield pellet stove for the past 8-yr's.
I'm about 1-hr's drive north of you so give me a call while i'm having my morning coffee now and i'll fill you in on all the pro's & con's.
845- 687-7448

Walt

[gold-n-rod]

I got my stand alone corn stove from <http:www.magnumheat.com> .

They have add-on's for furnaces, too. I don't know how far away you live from a grain elevator, but corn may be easier for you to get a bulk delivery than pellets. Pellets can be hard to come buy, but then again, rodents don't eat them, either.

Good luck. Your castle looks like a money pit to me, but then again, I'm very happy with my 1200 sq ft ranch.

[mattyboy]

hmmmmm when did I have corn ?????????? :p :rlol:

[half shell]

13T of cooling sounds like 5200 sf of house. It is not a cheap house to heat or cool. How are your windows and doors?is the piping insulated ? do you have any air handlers located in the attic? if so is the system filled with antifreeze?if to much antifreeze the system will be expensive to run.if no antifreeze did they set circulators to run contstantly with the t stat calling in the fan on the unit ? If so also expensive to run. Just a freeze switch/sensor would be better.

Also look at tekmar outdoor reset control it is a fuel saver but with hydro air not as much as with baseboard.

Any board member with baseboard heat should have a tekmar controller if you want to save fuel.

first floor of house may be a candidate for radiant heat it is great however after spending $$$$$$$ on your existing system you may not be interested.

Regards Bob

[half shell]

PS what are you doing for domestic hot water?

What is the high and low limit control set at?

Regards Bob

[gold-n-rod]

Any board member with baseboard heat should have a tekmar controller if you want to save fuel.

What is it and what does it do? How does it save fuel? What's the investment and payback period?

[half shell]

Randy it is a control that kind of takes the place of the high limit control as an operating control. It has an outdoor air sensor and sets the water temp of the boiler as is needed to heat your home.

For instance most high limits are set at 180 or 200 all the time.however if the weather is in the 30 s you may only need 150 degree water to heat your home.

The best savings will be with baseboard heat however hydro air shstems will also see some savings.

hat do you have to heat your domestic hot water? if it is indirect off the boiler it will determine which control you need.

Cost installed will vary however most would be under a thousand some more depending on your systems current set up.

look into it I did and saved energy last year.Even on my small 2 zone 1300 sf gas fired baseboard/radiant floor system.

Regards Bob

[Ed Donnelly]

Half shell;Religion,politics,windshields,sissy bars. Now indoor outdoor controllers? My Johnson A350 will beat your Tekmar hands down..

PS... Are you HVAC or boilers? ......Ed

[TuxedoPk]

Ed- Thanks for your help by phone. I just got some updated information on my system, burn rate, etc.

I have a 1000 gallon tank and purchased 3000 gallons last year. Assuming equal temperatures this year at our current 2.65/gallon pricing with no future increases that would equate to a $7950 oil bill for the coming year.

The nozzle on the system is a 150 gallon/hour, 60b solid nozzle- much less than I originally thought. Efficiency is at about 84%

I'm not certain but the fuel company estimated my (2) 5 ton heating coils to be about 90k BTU each, and another 45k btu for the 3 ton, 40k btu for the hot water heater for a total use of about 265k BTU which falls in line with the units 286k BTU output (so it looks as though the system is sized correctly)

Since a pellet/corn furnace is only going to provide 100-200kbtu, I'm going to still need some oil. I'm not sure if having a monthly breakdown of last years purchases will help you understand my useage better

Mid Sept 04 925 gallons (Heat wasn't turned on until November 15- 04)
Jan 10- 05 900 gallons
End of Feb 05 526 gallons
May 23 05 537 gallons

[TuxedoPk]

Ed/Walt- thanks again for your input.
Here are the systems I've found so far... what do you think? The prices will all go up by the time I factor in plumbing/electric/install and an automated auger system for feeding the corn/pellets into the burner.

From what I've been told, 3000 gallons of fuel oil equates to 23 tons of corn- something I'd need to be purchasing in bulk. 900 bushells at $2/bushel would amount to $1800 vs. $7950 for 3000 gallons @ $2.65/gallon assuming oil doesn't go up. The payback period will be 18 months or so.

- Ja-Ran, 200k BTU double burner
http://www.ja-ran.com/superior1.php

- Pinnalestove's Traeger TPB150 $5100 w/8 week delivery
http://www.pinnaclestove.com/#mtpb150

- Manitoban Outdoor Multi-fuel 250k BTU dealer price $5240 + shipping
http://www.topline-dist.com/photos.html

- Big M's A-Maize-Ing 165k BTU boiler, $5225
http://www.cornheat.com/corn_boiler.html

[half shell]

Half shell;Religion,politics,windshields,sissy bars. Now indoor outdoor controllers? My Johnson A350 will beat your Tekmar hands down..

PS... Are you HVAC or boilers? ......Ed



Ed I am a mechanical contractor.Plumbing / Heating (wet) is my specialty however one of my larger clients pushed me into hvac/refer about 5 years ago.

Johnson controls are excellent however I am not familiar with them,My dad liked dealing with them a first class operation.

Regards Bob

[half shell]

Tux do not panic over the 100/200K output of your alternate fuel source.With 3 heating zones if only 1 or 2 are calling you will be fine.The more zones you have the better the recovery of your heating plant to come up to temp.

Regards Bob

[TuxedoPk]

Bob- Thanks for the post. What do you think of the units I've posted? Are there any others you would recommend?

[DonziJon]

Ed/Walt- thanks again for your input.
Here are the systems I've found so far... what do you think? The prices will all go up by the time I factor in plumbing/electric/install and an automated auger system for feeding the corn/pellets into the burner.

From what I've been told, 3000 gallons of fuel oil equates to 23 tons of corn- something I'd need to be purchasing in bulk. 900 bushells at $2/bushel would amount to $1800 vs. $7950 for 3000 gallons @ $2.65/gallon assuming oil doesn't go up. The payback period will be 18 months or so.

- Ja-Ran, 200k BTU double burner
http://www.ja-ran.com/superior1.php

- Pinnalestove's Traeger TPB150 $5100 w/8 week delivery
http://www.pinnaclestove.com/#mtpb150

- Manitoban Outdoor Multi-fuel 250k BTU dealer price $5240 + shipping
http://www.topline-dist.com/photos.html

- Big M's A-Maize-Ing 165k BTU boiler, $5225
http://www.cornheat.com/corn_boiler.html

TuxedoPk: You never said how many square feet you had to heat. Is it an "Old" house?? Reading these posts, I think you are in very good hands. By the way, are you anywhere near "Sterling Forest"?

[half shell]

Well with about 2 mins of review on each unit the big M is asme stamped which shows the type of manufacturer they are.I did not see that on the others however if I looked closer maybe it is there.

The pinnacle looks ok too.

I would have to review full submitals on each before commiting to that kind of $$$$$$$$.

Also burnham had a multi fuel boiler and may still have it.

I will speak to my sales engineer tommorow on some other sources/prices.

Regards Bob



Ed what is your specialty you seem to be on top of this especially the burner set up?

[TuxedoPk]

TuxedoPk: You never said how many square feet you had to heat. Is it an "Old" house?? Reading these posts, I think you are in very good hands. By the way, are you anywhere near "Sterling Forest"?

The house is about 8000 sq. ft., I'm heating/cooling about 6000-6500.
Old house- Yes, built in 1886 by Emily Post's father.
Sterling Forest- I'm 5 minutes away.

[TuxedoPk]

One other outdoor unit I forgot to post
Woodmaster AFS-1100 $7499, plus another $1900 if I go with the 260 bushel hopper, and about $1000 for the misc. plumbing/heat exchanger stuff.
The unit handles 200k BTU for about $10k.
http://www.woodsedge.us/product/woodmasterplus.aspx

*I'm really surprised that more board members haven't been looking into these type systems considering the short payback period and 80% ongoing savings over oil fuel. The equipment costs are quite reasonable if you're not needing an oversized unit.

[gold-n-rod]

Some communities around here have banned outdoor wood burners (mostly due to the looks as well as the constant smoke). The smoke complaints came from the users who where burning junk wood and trash. I don't know about outdoor corn burners, however.

Anyway, check local regulations.

[Ed Donnelly]

half shell; Burnham's multis are gas and oil. I started out as a boiler only mech. Worked for Volcano then Clayton..Then got into Process burners, North American then Maxon.Spent two yrs on inert gas generators. Spent 5 yrs. designing and building vermiculite process blast furnaces,5 to 25 million btuh. Got sucked into (just like you) HVAC now doing energy management for several police forces and government bldg's Tekmar makes a great product, but not as popular as Johnson in Canada. Glad I am retiring soon pushing 61 and the technology is insane. Check out the Carrier Infinity or better yet the Goodman furnaces. 2 stage gas burners, direct drive DC blower motors. Program speeds via tonnage of AC you are running through it.. I'm retired the day my daughter graduates University. Lets see, she is 9 now,4 more yrs of grade school, 5 for High School, then 4 of university=13 yrs.. That makes me 74 yrs old YUP right on target...........Ed

[half shell]

half shell; Burnham's multis are gas and oil. I started out as a boiler only mech. Worked for Volcano then Clayton..Then got into Process burners, North American then Maxon.Spent two yrs on inert gas generators. Spent 5 yrs. designing and building vermiculite process blast furnaces,5 to 25 million btuh. Got sucked into (just like you) HVAC now doing energy management for several police forces and government bldg's Tekmar makes a great product, but not as popular as Johnson in Canada. Glad I am retiring soon pushing 61 and the technology is insane. Check out the Carrier Infinity or better yet the Goodman furnaces. 2 stage gas burners, direct drive DC blower motors. Program speeds via tonnage of AC you are running through it.. I'm retired the day my daughter graduates University. Lets see, she is 9 now,4 more yrs of grade school, 5 for High School, then 4 of university=13 yrs.. That makes me 74 yrs old YUP right on target...........Ed


Ed funny you mention the goodman furnaces.This summer we installed 153 goodman sealed combustion furnaces coils and condensers for a client/apartment owner. They wanted a mid june start and to be complete by labor day weekend. They also wanted to have 2 contractors perform the work to insure it was complete by then.


well I was crazy enough to tell them I wanted them all and that we could meet the date.Well we did it and the units were pretty good. Only a few defects not bad .Tough job since it was replacement work in occupied units and all the refer piping had to be replaced and we were the prime contractor manageing the other trades.

Man I need a vacation!!!

Regards Bob

I never used goodman before but will not hesitate to try again.

[Rootsy]

One other outdoor unit I forgot to post
Woodmaster AFS-1100 $7499, plus another $1900 if I go with the 260 bushel hopper, and about $1000 for the misc. plumbing/heat exchanger stuff.
The unit handles 200k BTU for about $10k.
http://www.woodsedge.us/product/woodmasterplus.aspx

*I'm really surprised that more board members haven't been looking into these type systems considering the short payback period and 80% ongoing savings over oil fuel. The equipment costs are quite reasonable if you're not needing an oversized unit.

well lets see... for about 2000 or so sq feet you'll burn about 6 Tons of shelled corn in a winter... a bushel of shelled corn at low moisture (15.5%) as observed by the US commodities market weighs 56 lbs / bushel... sooo you are gonna need ohhh 215 bushel for that home... corn is "roughly" hovering around $2 / bushel right now (incidently not $$$ enough to justify the input costs vs return, you best get great yields or you'll be in the RED)...

how many sq feet is your mansion????

JR - servicing the chainsaw...

[markdonzi]

I live in Diamond Point (Lake George) and for the past 18 years have run just a wood furnace in the winter. However now it is getting tired and am thinking of changing over to an oil and wood combination furnace. Yukon brand. The question I have is the woodbox and oil burner are in one box and I was told to get seperate fire boxes by a friend. efficiency of the oil burner is 85.1% which seems OK but a little low. Any thoughts or experiences??

markdonzi

[TuxedoPk]

Jamie- I like your calculations better than mine. I read that at 15% moisture 18 lbs of corn burns the same BTU as a gallon of heating oil. I used 3000 gallons @18 lbs = 54000 lbs /56lbs/bushel = 965 bushels. At $2/bushel that would run $1930 v. 3000gallons @ 2.65 = $7950, a savings of $6020 the first year alone assuming oil prices don't continue to rise.

My 'cottage' is around 8000 sq. ft. The mansions here don't start until you hit the 12,000 sq. foot or so mark.

I know one thing for sure, if I go this route I'll have plenty of popcorn on hand the next time a controversial topic comes up on the board!


well lets see... for about 2000 or so sq feet you'll burn about 6 Tons of shelled corn in a winter... a bushel of shelled corn at low moisture (15.5%) as observed by the US commodities market weighs 56 lbs / bushel... sooo you are gonna need ohhh 215 bushel for that home... corn is "roughly" hovering around $2 / bushel right now (incidently not $$$ enough to justify the input costs vs return, you best get great yields or you'll be in the RED)...

how many sq feet is your mansion????

[Rootsy]

well lets see... now you need Approx 24 TONS or 48000 lbs = 860 bushel... so you are not far off...

the 6 Tons and the sq footage is a "ballpark average" from folks i know that heat with corn in these parts where you have open fields, nasty NW winds from canuck land and lots of drifting snow...

hmmmm maybe i should use corn... there just happens to be 42,000 bushel of 30% (high moisture), shelled corn, across the road :eek: :eek:

[gold-n-rod]

hmmmm maybe i should use corn... there just happens to be 42,000 bushel of 30% (high moisture), shelled corn, across the road :eek: :eek:

My corn burner requires less than 14% moisture (11-12% preferred). The corn across the street will need a lot of drying first.

[Rootsy]

it's feed corn so it requires high moisture content... i was just being "comical" :)

[TuxedoPk]

Randy- I had investigated Magnum's largest unit- the 7500 but its output was 76,500 BTUs so I would have needed at least 3 of them which would have made it impracticle and scost prohibitive. The other problem was that it is a furnace pushing out hot air rather than a boiler. All the boiler's I've been looking at though fall in line with your 12% moisture content and one of the local corn farmers here has a drying system and sells low moisture processed corn at $140/ton.


My corn burner requires less than 14% moisture (11-12% preferred). The corn across the street will need a lot of drying first.