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Cuda
09-20-2005, 10:43 AM
I'm bitter. I'm working on the Minx. It has been turning over very slowly. I finally decided to get in the bilge ( :bawling: ) and check the starter connections. They looked pretty corroded, so I took them off, and cleaned them off. There were four wires going to the starter, and I know two came from each battery, but I've changed the set up back to the original single battery set up, so I used my meter to see which two get hot with the switch on, and just put those two back on. This was last night. I got out and tried the starter. Absolutely nothing. :splat: . By then, it was getting dark, so I quit for the night. Today, I crawl back down in the bilge, no mean feat for my old stiff ass, and fight to get the other two wires back on the starter. Climb my old ass back out of the bilge (harder than getting in :embarasse ) and try the starter. Now I get that chatter like you get when the battery is low and not engaging the starter. I'm cooling off right now, before I dive back in that hellhole again. :fire:

gcarter
09-20-2005, 05:28 PM
Well, it looks like you're on the right track.....connections.

Cuda
09-20-2005, 06:38 PM
The battery is fairly new, and I've also hooked the jump starter to it. I don't know how the connections got so corroded, I've never had this boat in salt water. I think maybe the mechanic might have when he test ran it, and perhaps forgot the plug.

It started pouring here, and ran me out of the bilge. I took that "solid" connection loose too, the one that has a solid piece of copper running over to the starter from the solenoid. It looks pretty bad too. I'm hoping the accumulation of all the connections was my problem. Since it's raining, I'm going to run to the hardware store to see if I can find a stainless bolt to replace this one for the "solid" connection. It looks pretty bad, and this is AFTER I've been cleaning on it.

Cuda
09-20-2005, 06:40 PM
I went to the Lowes to look for a bolt. Of course no such thing as a 10/32 that's 1.75 inches long. :(

I bought some that are two inches, and I'll cut them down.

penbroke
09-20-2005, 08:45 PM
It doesn't take much to drop the voltage enough to slow the starter down. I expect you are on the right track. Once everything is clean and shiney a little dielectric grease on the connections will help keep it that way. Good luck.

Frank

Cuda
09-20-2005, 10:37 PM
Isn't that bolt I'm replacing supposed to be brass?

penbroke
09-21-2005, 07:40 AM
It would be nice but most aren't. It just clamps the copper to the connection and doesn't actually cary the current.

Frank

Cuda
09-21-2005, 07:48 AM
It just clamps the copper to the connection and doesn't actually cary the current.

Frank
Good point, I should have thought of that.

Cuda
09-24-2005, 11:30 AM
I'm just about over this gd boat! Just spent some more quality time in that hot damn bilge cleaning every connection to the starter. For some gd reason, they have four wires running to the post. It took me 20 minutes to finally get the four wires on, just not enough room on the post for four connectors. I would have cut all of them off and run them in one connector, but that would probably entail about a dozen trips in and out of the bilge. Anyway, after much cussing and gnashing of teeth, I got the wires on. Unfolded myself from the bilge and climbed out. Hit the key. Now the gd thing won't even click! I've just about had it. My dad's coming over today for my bday, and if I tell him about it, I know he'll make me get back in that bilge. He'd NEVER let this problem whip him.

Boatlubber
09-24-2005, 11:49 AM
Had a similar problem with my 18' correct craft. Seems that once the starter goes unde water it does them in. Had my starter rebuilt localy for about $80. No more problems.

onesubdrvr
09-24-2005, 11:59 AM
I'm just about over this gd boat! Just spent some more quality time in that hot damn bilge cleaning every connection to the starter. For some gd reason, they have four wires running to the post. It took me 20 minutes to finally get the four wires on, just not enough room on the post for four connectors. I would have cut all of them off and run them in one connector, but that would probably entail about a dozen trips in and out of the bilge. Anyway, after much cussing and gnashing of teeth, I got the wires on. Unfolded myself from the bilge and climbed out. Hit the key. Now the gd thing won't even click! I've just about had it. My dad's coming over today for my bday, and if I tell him about it, I know he'll make me get back in that bilge. He'd NEVER let this problem whip him.
Joe,

Listen to me VERY carefully,....

Go to your important paper file

Get out the title

SIGN IT OVER TO ME!!!! :D :D :D , I'll be there to pick it up soon :wavey:

Wayne

BUIZILLA
09-24-2005, 12:04 PM
Cuda, ya's got tooo may wires on that one post.....

I do not believe all 4 go to the same post.

you have one main post for the battery cable, and possibly the alternator main feed, then possibly 2 smaller posts on the solenoid next to the main post. Those two smaller ones take 2 very small terminals. One of those smaller terminals is for the S wire or START function of the solenoid trigger. The solenoid is marked for each letter on the plastic cover of the solenoid, seeing it is a bitch however... The other small post is the R terminal for the run voltage to the coil. You may have something crossed up, or doubled up. If your not getting a CLICK, then your NOT utilizing the solenoid trigger wire, and your feeding that start portion of the key, back into the main solenoid lug. If you have only one small and one large terminal on the solenoid, then the small lug is the solenoid trigger only from the key, and the coil run and start function is off the main lug combined.

call me if your confused.

Jim 305.796.0222

joseph m. hahnl
09-24-2005, 03:09 PM
Cuda: Yellow red stripe wire goes to the solonoid."small post" all other wires that require 12 volts go to the battery wire connected to the solonoid "large post".
You can have as many that will fit on the post.The orange wire is the wiring harness hot wire for all your accesorries.

A slow starter can over amp the wire and can melt the connectores at the battery and the battery lead itself itself. double check them to see if the wire connectors are still attached to the battery cables.

joe.

MOP
09-24-2005, 04:05 PM
Cuda yellow/red atuates the starter, I believe you have a ballast bypass to feed full 12 volts for starting that is purple/yellow it goes on the other small post.

Phil

Ed Donnelly
09-24-2005, 06:57 PM
Cuda; you say its your BIRTHDAY ???? Just go get drunk. The problem will still be there tomorrow, its not going anywhere. :beer: :happy_bi: :beer: ..Ed

Cuda
09-24-2005, 10:01 PM
I know I took all four wires off that post, and it did run that way before. There are two large wires, which come from the switch, which basically is coming from the battery. I had the boat changed back to the original one battery where it belonged. I turned on the battery once before and checked to see which one still had the power on it, then I connected the hot one, and the smaller wire in the same harness, and tried to start. Nothing. The gauges didn't even flicker then, so knew the other small wire must have run up to the dash at the ignition switch, so I cleaned them all up, disconneted that solid chunk of brass connection and cleaned it all up, then put it all back together (all four). Now, I know for a fact all four wires came off that post, because I knew I'd have a bitch of a time getting them all back on and the nut started. Now that it's not even clicking, and I've had some time to think and confer with my dad, it's not in those four wires where my problem is now. I has to be in the circuit from the key switch to the solenoid, and I haven't removed that connection. It must have been bad, and I made it worse fooling around with those other wires by it. It could be the wire is loose in the connecter itself. Anyway, tomorrow morning, dad and I will take another whack at it. We should be able to trace it down with me in the bilge with the meter, and dad hitting the starter switch to see if we are dropping voltage somewhere.

Here's what I think the four wires power. The one big one doesn't do anything anymore, it was the hot lead from the second battery, which is no longer in use, the other big one is from the number one battery, one little wire I believe powers all the other electrical on the boat, and the other small one I think runs the bilge pump only.

Thanks for the help, and I'll let you know what we find.

BUIZILLA
09-24-2005, 10:13 PM
The one big one doesn't do anything anymore, it was the hot lead from the second battery, which is no longer in useJoe, why did you put this one back on ?? or did you? isn't there another single 14ga wire going to another small terminal on that solenoid next to that big terminal ? that long brass looking screw you took out and cleaned... isn't that for the hot strap of the solenoid to the armature?

MOP
09-24-2005, 10:53 PM
That long brass screw sends the power from the solenoid to the starter that is hot when you turn the key to start. -0- Wires get attached to it! You have to have the large main bat + lead, the orange alternator feed and the red hot lead for the boat power both are usually #10 one, they all go on the big one at top of the solenoid and one #14 yellow/red to actuate the starter. Possibly one more purple/yellow #14 to by pass the resister/ballast wire that feeds the coil, that means you either have 4 or 5 wires. Looking at the back of the starter the inner small post close to the block is what actuates the solenoid, the small one on the outside is the resister/ballast by pass.

Cuda
09-24-2005, 11:02 PM
Joe, why did you put this one back on ?? or did you? isn't there another single 14ga wire going to another small terminal on that solenoid next to that big terminal ? that long brass looking screw you took out and cleaned... isn't that for the hot strap of the solenoid to the armature?
Jim, the only reason I put it back on, is because it is wrapped in the same harness as the small wire that I needed to put back on, and it was easier, or so I thought, than cutting it and pulling the wire out. Yes, I think there is another small wire beside the large one, but I haven't fooled with it yet.

MOP
09-25-2005, 09:01 AM
The easiest way to check a starter is to take a "GOOD" set of jumper cables and go direct from the battery to the starter, hook the battery plus to the main lug on the stater solenoid and hook the minus to the round stub sticking out of the back make sure you get through the paint. Now take a jumper from the small terminal on the inside of the starter solinoid and jump it to plus, if it works OK the problem is not in the starter if not pull the starter. Now move the minus cable to the block repeat test this will show that the starter has good ground to the engine block, if not pull the starter and clean the mating surfaces to insure good ground (most people throw a starter on without cleaning the surfaces. On Delco's (GM) where the starter meets the block and the area where the bolt heads contact should be bare metal to bare metal -0- paint once mounted you can spray the exposed edges with rust preventitive. Once you are sure that the starter is OK you need to check the circuits leading to that point.

Phil

Dalelama
09-25-2005, 09:18 AM
Joe,

Whydya pull the dual batt setup?

2/0 welding cable leads..... NO voltage drop there!

Cuda
09-25-2005, 09:47 AM
Joe,

Whydya pull the dual batt setup?

2/0 welding cable leads..... NO voltage drop there!
Because they were just laying in the bilge, banging around. I put the single back in the original spot under the rear seat.

Cuda
09-25-2005, 09:52 AM
I got sidetracked this morning while my dad was here. Last night, my neighbor told me his riding lawnmower blew up, and wanted to borrow my trailer to pick up his new one today. I asked what he was going to do with the blown up one, and he said I could have it, so I pushed it home today, and dad and I spent the morning diagnosing that engine. We decided it has a cracked piston. I'm going to trailer it to my dad's next weekend, and give it to him. It's in really nice shape, better than the one I have.

Sagbay32
09-25-2005, 11:10 AM
It's good to hear that you luck is changing. Just because you have a new project on your hands doesn't mean you can quit posting about this one.....the suspense is killing me on the battery debacle :redface:

Mike

Cuda
09-25-2005, 11:15 AM
It's good to hear that you luck is changing. Just because you have a new project on your hands doesn't mean you can quit posting about this one.....the suspense is killing me on the battery debacle :redface:

Mike
I won't quit. Debbie and her daughter are going to ride the four wheelers, and I won't get in that bilge unless Debbie is there to fetch stuff for me while I'm in. I'll get on it this evening when it cools down a bit.

Cuda
09-25-2005, 06:15 PM
Is that big post supposed to flop around? It doesn't want to thread into anything, and it won't come out.

Are there any tests I can do to this while I've got it out?

MOP
09-25-2005, 06:38 PM
Both big posts look like a flat headed bolt inside they fit into bosses to hold them from turning, you may have inadvetantly loosened the nuts. Try turning them a little, there are no wires inside they should drop into the recesses that are suppose to hold them in place, carefull not to over tighten. If you can't get them tight just replace the whole thing. They are not easily serviced and not worth the time and trouble! to replace it remove the two screws at the solenoid flange where it meets the start, give it a 1/4 turn it will slide off leaving the plinger behind. Joe if you have any questions you can call me 631 722 4195 will be up until 11 or so.P.S. I can tell you how to get it apart without FIUP!
Phil

Cuda
09-25-2005, 07:10 PM
Phil, it's already out, and in my hand in the above pic. :)

Are they marine specific?

Dalelama
09-25-2005, 07:46 PM
Joe,

The batteries were in front of the transverse stringer, up in front of the rear seat... they should not have been able to move... believe me... they were tested to the extreme, and never moved. I might have pulled 'em out when I removed the motor... can't remember...Not even necessary to tie 'em down... just place a small piece of 2x4 under the lower side to keep 'em level. Just did the chane on Kenny's boat. Check it out at SRQ. Two is always better than one..... unless it's loan shark muscle!

MOP
09-26-2005, 08:02 AM
Phil, it's already out, and in my hand in the above pic. :)

Are they marine specific?

NO they are sealed with a gasket, you can get a replacement at the auto parts.

Phil

Cuda
10-01-2005, 09:32 AM
Okay, I swapped out for a new solenoid, and tried it. Nothing. The gauges don't even flicker when you turn the key on. I thought maybe it was the battery. I checked it and got only 11.5 volts across the posts, so I charged up a different battery and put it in this morning. Still nothing on the gauges, or starter. I did try the outdrive, and it will raise fine. I'm at a loss here. :confused:

MOP
10-01-2005, 11:49 AM
Joe just to make sure take apart the main harness plug, clean it up best you can. If you look you will see the pronges have slits in them, use a little knife blade to open them up to about 6-8 thoudands this will insure good contact within the plug. I am startint to think it is in the initial supply coming from the engine to the dash, not letting enough juice forward to activate things aft. Have you checked for voltage at the key switch and if it is passing through to go back aft when you turn the key?

Phil

PS It is an hours worth of typing to try to get across what to try, that can be done in 15 minutes with a good meter!

Cuda
10-01-2005, 02:22 PM
Apparently, it needs the fourth wire on it that I thought it didn't need. Now the gauges will flicker, and the starter sounds like it does when you have a dead battery, but I know the battery isn't dead, because it will lift the drive. Here's what it sounds like.

http://media.putfile.com/MVI_2795

MOP
10-01-2005, 03:32 PM
Joe did you run the starter on the bench when you had it out? Or at least did you go direct to it with Jumper cables? You need to knoe if it seemd to be working OK out of the circuit. The sound is iffy is the engine turning at all?

Phil

Cuda
10-01-2005, 03:35 PM
I haven't taken the starter out. I guess that's next. Just two bolts from the bottom correct?

Measuring across the battery while hitting the starter, the voltage drops from 14 to about 7.5, which I think is normal for a spinning starter, but mine isn't spinning.

MOP
10-01-2005, 03:57 PM
I haven't taken the starter out. I guess that's next. Just two bolts from the bottom correct?

Measuring across the battery while hitting the starter, the voltage drops from 14 to about 7.5, which I think is normal for a spinning starter, but mine isn't spinning.

Ok originaly you said turning slow, not truning is another thing that is what got me about the noise. Sounded like it was not turning the engine, yes two bolts from the bottom also there may be a bracket from the end cap to the block. take it loose from the stater and loosen it at the block to get the starter out. The bracket if there is real nice to hold it in place while you cuss at the bolts. Use never sieze on the bolts going back together. If you have jumper cables handy I would give that a shot, getting the starter is a pain and going back in can be a bitch.

PS if you dab the never sieze into the starters bolt holes you will not get as much on you!!!

Phil

Cuda
10-01-2005, 06:46 PM
I guess I'll pull the starter out tomorrow.

gcarter
10-01-2005, 07:13 PM
Joe, you can get it out!!!!!
I'm betting on you!! :wink:

MOP
10-02-2005, 09:31 AM
Joe take a look at the flywheel to see if the teeth are bunged up, you may need to file the teeth on the flywheel. Sometimes if the bendix keeps hitting the same teeth it can mess them up a little, Also the voltage drop seems a bit high. You may be in for another starter.
It is worth a call to see if your local USA Auto stocks the marine one, I was nicely surprised at the first 1K run to find that the one up there had them at about half the price at a marina.

Phil

Cuda
10-02-2005, 11:09 AM
I pulled a battery out of the Checkmate and put it in. It started turning over fast enough I thought it might start. Then it started turning real slow, and finally, won't turn over. Think I should pull the plugs and see how it turns over?

Cuda
10-02-2005, 12:11 PM
I pulled the plugs, and it turns over, but not as fast as I think it should. Good news is no water came flying out.

Cuda
10-02-2005, 12:12 PM
I'm thinking again that when they sea trialed the motor they put in, they got salt water high in the bilge. Check out these plugs, and I've never had this boat in salt.

Cuda
10-02-2005, 12:13 PM
With the plugs out, and a decent battery in, while it was turning the voltage dropped to 7.8 or so. Pull the starter now?

Cuda
10-02-2005, 12:16 PM
I'll yank the starter at halftime. Gotta watch my Bucs drive the Cadillac now. I sure hope they fare better than my damn Gators did yesterday. :(

Cuda
10-02-2005, 02:01 PM
The welding cables only go from the battery to the switch, regular cable after the switch.

BUIZILLA
10-02-2005, 04:51 PM
Joe, me thinks you've got water in at least 2 cylinders....

JH

Cuda
10-02-2005, 05:04 PM
Joe, me thinks you've got water in at least 2 cylinders....

JH

That's what I was afraid of originally, but none came out when I turned it over without the plugs in it, and there is none in the oil pan.

I just came out of the bilge trying to get the starter out. Sheet! I couldn't budge either bolt, and I had a pretty good pull on them. I'm cooling off, then looking for some pipe to put on the end of the ratchet.

BUIZILLA
10-02-2005, 05:09 PM
Joe, me thinks the water went out the exhaust valve(s), before you pulled the spark plugs....

JH

MOP
10-02-2005, 06:14 PM
Don't look good Joe, starter may turn out to be fine motor may not! If at all possible do not use a pipe on the starter bolts!!!!! If you round them off it is a nightmare, I bet that engine got salt wet, water may have drained by the rings it will lay in the bottom of the pan and not mix until it starts up. If you can try ti hit the bolt heads from the side with a good punch and hammer, it will help to break them loose. If you round them the engine needs to come out and you will have to gut the starter and break the nose off, nasty job been there done that.

Phil

Cuda
10-02-2005, 06:37 PM
Sometimes you just gotta have the right tool for the job. Two foot of steel pipe on a ratchet with a deep six point socket.

Cuda
10-02-2005, 06:40 PM
Phil, it had these kind of bolt heads, so I wasn't worried about rounding them off with the deep six point socket.

Cuda
10-02-2005, 06:42 PM
I took the starter to Autozone, and unfortunately, it checked out fine. If I get home tomorrow early enough, I'll put a socket on the crankshaft bolt and see how hard it turns over. I'm not getting a good feeling about this. :(

MOP
10-02-2005, 07:39 PM
Joe if memory serves me right you had a water problem last time, curious did they use your old manifolds or new ones? It looks like a riser gasket leak hitting the center 2 cylinders, if they were a new set they put together I would have a talk with them.

Phil

Cuda
10-02-2005, 07:57 PM
Joe if memory serves me right you had a water problem last time, curious did they use your old manifolds or new ones? It looks like a riser gasket leak hitting the center 2 cylinders, if they were a new set they put together I would have a talk with them.

Phil
That was on the last engine. This is a different long block. I'm starting to see why Merc engines are so expensive..............they are worth it. :(

gcarter
10-02-2005, 08:33 PM
That was on the last engine. This is a different long block. I'm starting to see why Merc engines are so expensive..............they are worth it. :(
Joe, did you answer MOP's question about exhaust manifolds?
Are they the same?
You sure seem to be having a difficult time of it.

Cuda
10-02-2005, 08:36 PM
Same manifolds, but they are like new. I'm pretty sure the last engine's water problems came from the heads. I still don't know if it's water or not.

Cuda
10-02-2005, 08:37 PM
From looking at the plugs, if any of them are getting water, I'd say it's the front and the back cylinders on the starboard side.

MOP
10-02-2005, 10:21 PM
The manifold or riser may be bad and killed two mills!

Phil

Cuda
10-02-2005, 10:23 PM
The manifold or riser may be bad and killed two mills!

Phil
I don't think so, they are both like brand new, and I doubt they were installed wrong two times in a row. This first time was installed by me.

MOP
10-02-2005, 10:47 PM
I don't think so, they are both like brand new, and I doubt they were installed wrong two times in a row. This first time was installed by me.

Yeah but were they torn down and re gasketed, plus they can be poris> I have gotten them out of the box Bad! Was it the same side wet last time that would give you the answer.

Cuda
10-02-2005, 10:55 PM
I didn't dissassemble the last engine. The mech said he thought it was a cracked head, or the head gasket.

Mr X
10-02-2005, 11:00 PM
Yeah but were they torn down and re gasketed, plus they can be poris> I have gotten them out of the box Bad! Was it the same side wet last time that would give you the answer.

Thats why I just bought these, totally seperate water jackets from riser to manifold, making gasket faliure an impossibility. Not to mention the couple hundred pounds of weight savings and almost indefinate longevity.

MOP
10-02-2005, 11:20 PM
No way would I have put it back together with out re gasketing and pressure checking the manifolds or better yet replacing them. A good mechanic don't think what the Could Have's or Should have's were he does his best to find and eliminate the cause, that's a must and not you fault! Pull that riser bet it shows a water stain inside. I remember he had the boat long enough to have covered all the bases!

Phil

Cuda
10-03-2005, 05:37 AM
I know for a fact he regasketed the risers, because when he was checking the old engine, he told me the easiest way to get the valve covers off was by removing the risers. I'm sure it wasn't the same source IF there is water in it.

Cuda
10-03-2005, 06:47 AM
I woke up this morning bumming about my Minx. I'm going to take one more shot of it when I get home today, if I don't get it running, I'm over it, and it's going up for sale. I'd rather lose money than time.