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TuxedoPk
09-08-2005, 02:40 PM
With Mexican troops already in the US delivering aid, the big question is should we accept or reject relief aid from Cuba?

Carl C
09-08-2005, 02:50 PM
Have they offered aid? If so that's surprising considering U.S. policy toward Cuba. We should definately accept but it'll never happen. We need to lighten up on Cuba. They have been reaching out to us. I've also heard that Cuba is a boater's paradise.:yes:

mattyboy
09-08-2005, 03:25 PM
how bout both mexico and cuba take back all of their illegal aliens/refugees back for us so we would have the housing/jobs/resources for our own in this time of need
yeah they'll both send troops but will they go back when it's time????? :rolleyes:

TuxedoPk
09-08-2005, 03:38 PM
Let me see if I understand this... You are only in favor of keeping the Mexicans that were grandfathered in when we invaded Mexico in 1846 and aquired 1/2 of Mexico's land.. the land that is now California, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, and Utah?

You're right. F@ck Mexico. They should have expected that we'd launch an attack after they turned down our offer's to purchase California for $5mil then $25 mil in 1835/1845. We made them an offer they couldn't refuse.. they refused. We slaughtered 25k Mexicans and took 1/2 their property and then gave them $15mil in exchange. Gotta Love Manifest Destiny.

GW is right that the terrorists hate us for our freedom... which we fairly earned by killing people of many other nations and taking theirs away.

I love this country and wouldn't want to be a citizen of any place else but we defintately need to be honest about how many countries we've di#ked over in the last 200 or so years and recognize that there is a reason that a large portion of the world things less of us than we do of France.


how bout both mexico and cuba take back all of their illegal aliens/refugees back for us so we would have the housing/jobs/resources for our own in this time of need
yeah they'll both send troops but will they go back when it's time????? :rolleyes:

McGary911
09-08-2005, 03:40 PM
I heard that they offered to send over about 100 doctors? the number may not be right....higher if anything. They'll be some of the most likely to defect, cuz they'll make a lot more money here than back home.

Craig S
09-08-2005, 03:40 PM
Have they offered aid? If so that's surprising considering U.S. policy toward Cuba. We should definately accept but it'll never happen. We need to lighten up on Cuba. They have been reaching out to us. I've also heard that Cuba is a boater's paradise.:yes:

Several days ago Cuba offered 100 medical specialists for the relief effort.

GKricheldorf
09-08-2005, 04:43 PM
Vicente Fox was correct when he said Mexicans take the jobs that blacks wouldn't. And neither would the whites. I know i could never afford the things i do if i were the one out in the fields picking crops. We need the Mexicans

donzi182003
09-08-2005, 04:59 PM
Cuba is just kissing Hugo Chavez's ass in Venezuela. Since Venezuela offered us petroleum, Cuba after 40 years is being all nice.There has to be a motive. Yep Cuba is a boaters paradise. Parents were born there they have told me stories and showed me pics. Virgin land still.

Lenny
09-08-2005, 05:36 PM
I haven't been to CUBA but it is a VERY popular vacation spot in Canada. We see specials all the time to there and the people that I DO know, say it was a great trip, beautiful place, and extremely nice people.

???

My vote is for "take the aid" . You guys have enough on your plate to bear EVERYTHING 24/7.

I WOULD not take offerings of money or humanitarian help from Al Qeada or the Taliban or North Korea or Iran though.

Darrell
09-08-2005, 07:40 PM
With Mexican troops already in the US delivering aid, the big question is should we accept or reject relief aid from Cuba?


Didn't you start the topic "Where is the world aid"

I had heard that they wanted to send 1600 medical personel ( no money )that had went to aid relief after the tusnami. If we have enough medical personel now I think we should decline.

Darrell

TuxedoPk
09-08-2005, 07:44 PM
I've been looking forward to visiting Cuba for a long time; It's really a shame that we've had such poor relations with this country for so long.

Last year when GW announced we were getting tougher with Cuba I felt that things were about to change in the VERY short term future and that the administration was just posturing to take credit for the 'fall' as a result of their policies. Did anyone else get the same feeling about this?

While one doesn't have to agree with all of his policies, that fact that Castro has been able to maintain such a stable government under his dicatorship for such a long period of time is quite impressive. As Maxwell Smart used to say, "If only he had used his talents for good instead of evil".

gcarter
09-08-2005, 07:47 PM
Hey Tux;
How about Cuba? We kicked Spain out, and in a few years gave them their independance, same with the Philipines, although we kept Puerto Rico, it's probably too small to be successful.
But why did we kick Spain out? Have you ever visited Ybor City?
Europe has NEVER done well as Colonialists. They always tried to drain the colonies dry.
But we don't need to accept anything from Cube. It's all a ruse. They need to keep their specialists there. Their own people need them. It may be a boaters paradise, but it's run by a ruthless dictater who cares nothing for his own people. Sadam = Fidel, it's all the same, they're only interested in absolute power. And don't forget Fidel was more than willing to have the Soviets set up nuke missles there. I was in high school then, and I can tell you those were some pretty scary days.
If only JFK had supported the Bay of Pigs invasion like he promised.

gcarter
09-08-2005, 07:55 PM
I've been looking forward to visiting Cuba for a long time.

Last year when GW announced we were getting tougher with Cuba I felt that things were about to change in the VERY short term future and that the administration was just posturing to take credit for the 'fall' as a result of their policies. Did anyone else get the same feeling about this?

Tux, my response above was really about your comments about Mexico and Manifest Destiny.
However I felt since 1990 that Cuba would fall soon. Why has it taken so long? That old fart just won't die.
I'll NEVER go to Cuba or have any monetary dealings there as long as it's a totalitarian government.

MOP
09-08-2005, 08:07 PM
Below is the report from CNN, 1,586 doctors each carrying 27 pounds of medicines also atleast 26 tons of supplies. One day soon this old bugger will croak, maybe it is time to try to get some relations going with Cuba. I think whether their policies are right or wrong we should look to better our relationship. My feeling is to accept the fig leaf!

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/09/05/katrina.cuba/index.html

DonziDave
09-08-2005, 08:13 PM
I had heard that President Fox offered to send thousands of Mexican construction workers to help rebuild New Orleans. He said they would be well qualified because they have experiance in wading and after they could do landscaping. :cartman:

Sorry...I couldn't help myself....bad Dave...bad Dave...

gcarter
09-08-2005, 08:14 PM
Phil, maybe you're right, but I do know the further South you travel, the more people dislike Castro i.e., the more they understand the horrible things he's done to freedom loving people on his island.

Islander
09-08-2005, 08:26 PM
Sure accept 1,000 doctors from Cuba...hell accept 100,000. While we're at it why not accept 5,000 engineers from Iran or 10,000 computer specialists from Syria or 60,000 nuclear physicists from North Korea. You people are demented.

TuxedoPk
09-08-2005, 09:32 PM
George- I'm going to have to disagree with you on the US kicking Spain out and giving Cuba its independence. If we go back to 1872 when Grant was president- he rejected the proposal for Cuba to purchase its freedom from Spain and abolish slavery so as to best serve American interests.

The result was that the rebel freedom fighters for Cuban independence continued to battle thru 1878. The end to slavery didn't come until 1886 and only then because it became more profitable to free the slaves and hire them back per diem and eliminating the need to support them year round.

1897- McKinnley is still refusing to recognize Cuban indepenance

1898- Spain gets blamed for explosion of the Maine, tells McKinnley that they are willing to give up their claim to Cuba, yet McKinnley tells congress "The only hope of relief and repose from a condition that can no longer be endured is the enforced 'pacification' of Cuba" (The term pacification has been used by many subsequent US administrations when their desire to intervene in other nation's internal affairs needs justification) The US then declares war on Spain.

1898 Treaty is signed to give Cuba it's independence. Notably absent from the signing of the treaty- anyone from Cuba! Cuba is now under US control.

1899 US installs General Brook as 'Free' Cuba's first military governor.

1901 The U.S. Congress passes the Platt Amendment limiting the rights of "free" Cuba to conduct its own foreign policy and granting the United States the right to intervene in Cuba.

1901 'Election' Excluded from voting- Cuban blacks, mulatos, females and those having a net worth under $250 (over $1 million in today's dollars!)

Cuba is controlled by US special interest groups who strong arm the country with US military involvement.

1906-1917 the US sends troops to Cuba on 3 occasions to exert its control on three occassions citing Platt.

1921-1932 Lots of rebel uprisings caused primarily by corrupt dealings in Cuba with US interests

1933 Batista takes over. US doesn't like the government so it doesn't recognize it.

1934 After US gets Batista to sign Treaty on Relations which continues the US lease on Guantanamo its suddenly ok with the regime.

1944 US Mafia gains foothold on Cuba

1952 Batista realizes he's going to loose election and hold coup. Upon ascending to power the elections are cancelled, the Constitution suspended and Batista becomes Cuba's dictator. Within days the Truman Administration officially recognizes his government and begins sending military and economic aid!

Given the United States track record for preventing Cuba from ever being a free nation it really set the stage for someone like Castro to rise to power and have Cuban independence for the first time. As much as we like to say GW does what he says he's going to do, Fidel has done the same when it comes to truly making Cuba independent from their biggest threat- the United States. This is not to absolve him from the negative aspects of his reign, but as historians look back on the history of Cuba, his reign will be the only period where there actually was Cuban independence, for better or for worse.

gcarter
09-09-2005, 01:16 AM
Well, it's 2:00 AM, so I'm not going to research all of this now, but $250.00 in 1901 is only $5500.00 today.

MrsDigger
09-09-2005, 07:13 AM
Castro's offer of assistance is nothing more than a political ploy in his continuing use of political one-upmanship against the US. It would be foolish to accept such an offer. Cuba's continued assault on the US for alleged human rights violations in the war on terrorism is ludicrous, expecially when one considers that they are one of the world's worst human rights abusers.
"GENEVA, SWITZERLAND, March 31, 2005 -- Freedom House today released its annual list of the world's most repressive regimes at the United Nations Commission on Human Rights. Six are members of the UN body, charged with monitoring and condemning human rights violations. The report, "The Worst of the Worst: The World's Most Repressive Societies 2005," includes detailed summations of the dire human rights situations in Belarus, Burma (Myanmar), China, Cuba, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Laos, Libya, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, and Zimbabwe. Chechnya, Tibet, and Western Sahara are included as territories under Russian, Chinese, and Moroccan jurisdictions respectively." http://www.freedomhouse.org/media/pressrel/033105.htm

Boater's Paradise? I'm sure that is what Cuban refugees think, as they pile like sardines onto whatever raft or smuggler's boat willing to take them to Florida in return for their life savings...if Castro is so benevolent and Cuba is such a wonderful place, why do so many people keep trying to escape??

And more highlights from the Castro show...

"Seventy-five defendants were tried and convicted during the April 2003 crackdown, none were acquitted. The defendants were charged with “acts against the independence or territorial integrity of the state,” and of supporting U.S. policy against Cuba. They were tried under a so-called facilitated procedure, which, under articles 479 and 480 of Cuba’s code of criminal procedure, is supposed to be applied only in “exceptional circumstances.”

In terms of due process, the April 2003 trials were a sham. Defendants in many cases did not see their lawyers before trial, and lawyers had only the most limited time to prepare a defense. Trials were closed to outside observers.

Over the past several months, the Cuban authorities have freed seven of the 75 dissidents on health grounds. The current releases mean that some 65 of the 75 remain incarcerated, including Raul Rivero, a prominent poet and journalist who is serving a 20-year sentence." (Excerpt from HRW, March 2005 http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/29/cuba9740.htm)

"A Joint Statement by Freedom House, Human Rights First, Human Rights Watch and other human rights organizations on the first anniversary of the crackdown on peaceful dissent in Cuba Exactly one year ago, on March 18, 2003, the Cuban government launched a massive crackdown on peaceful dissidents, independent journalists, human rights defenders, and independent labor unionists, librarians, medical doctors, and teachers. Since the crackdown, all 75 prisoners remain incarcerated and are reportedly being held in substandard and inhumane conditions." HRW March 18, 2004

"(New York, April 27, 2004) — Cuba’s trial and sentencing of a blind human rights lawyer and nine other dissidents violates their rights to freedom of expression, association and liberty, Human Rights Watch said today. Human Rights Watch called for their immediate and unconditional release.
The trial, which was held yesterday in the central Cuban city of Ciego de Ávila, was the country’s first major political prosecution since last year’s imprisonment of 75 dissidents. Among the defendants was Juan Carlos González Leiva, a blind lawyer who is the president of the Cuban Foundation for Human Rights (Fundación Cubana de Derechos Humanos)." HRW

Finally, I find it appalling that the Blame America First crowd places responsibility for Castro's totalitarian regime solely upon the shoulders of the U.S., and I find it sad that self-loathing Americans blame the U.S. for Mexico's ills...or assert that we "screwed" Mexico and "so many other countries." The Spaniards screwed the Mayans and the other indigenous peoples in the region, who undoubtedly screwed the aboriginal population that preceded them.

Slavery was a European institution, brought to our shores by the Brits and the French. Even the so-called Native Americans, who probably screwed the people of Asian descent who were allegedly here before them, enslaved members of opposing tribes. While slavery is certainly a blot on our nation's history, it was not an American invention, and it is good to remember that hundreds of thousands of Americans fought and died to end slavery in our country.

gcarter
09-09-2005, 07:57 AM
Darcy, not to mention there's still slavery in Africa.

harbormaster
09-09-2005, 08:51 AM
Hey Rich (Tux)

You left out a little detail on how you northern boys invaded and ransacked the sothern states of your own country. Whats up with that?

TuxedoPk
09-09-2005, 09:40 AM
Darcy, I've got to admit that I was hoping you'd jump in and make this more interesting as I was typing my post last night :)

First, before you jump to your comment about the Blame Game, perhaps you'd like to address whether you believe that the United States' actions as described in my timeline where ethical or moral on their own ground. I contend that starting the war with Spain is akin to other nations starting wars to gain territory- Kuait, Poland, etc. The effect on Cuba was they were still the bitch- just with a new more local Pimp.

If I am understanding you correct, you are not historically disputing what I stated about how we treated Mexico based on the fact that the Spaniards screwed the Mayans. I never heard this theory on 'Used Goods' before. Come on, that would be like saying lets stop worrying about homeland security because since we've already had a terrorist attack its fair game for anyone who wants to attack us..

I don't think that anyone will challenge your assertion that slavery was a european institution or that it was a blot on our history. However I find it as relevent to US-Cuba or US-Mexican history as a statement about whether chunky or smooth peanut butter tastes better. (I realize this wasn't called for but it strangely felt fun to type :) )

Islander
09-09-2005, 09:55 AM
Given the United States track record for preventing Cuba from ever being a free nation it really set the stage for someone like Castro to rise to power and have Cuban independence for the first time.

Hah! Independent from what? Food? Electricity? Running water? Freedom to travel?

Tux, you've been taking the New York Times a bit too literally. Perhaps you really need to take that trip you're talking about, talk to non-government cubans to see their perspective, then come back and relate your experience.

You may have a hard time meeting these "real" cubans while you're sipping a mojito on a beach that they're not allowed to visit. Some independence, huh?

TuxedoPk
09-09-2005, 09:57 AM
Are you referring to the Civil War, post war carpet bagging...? If that's the case then I only didn't leave out details on it because it wasn't related to US-foreign relations.

For the record, I'll be the first to agree that Shermmy did get a bit carried away as he visited the warmer states just so Haliburton could get the reconstruction contract- oops sorry I keep getting him and Chenney confused :smash:


Hey Rich (Tux)
You left out a little detail on how you northern boys invaded and ransacked the sothern states of your own country. Whats up with that?

TuxedoPk
09-09-2005, 10:10 AM
I'm not a reader of the Times because of their left wing/democrat/anti-christian/liberal distortion of the truth. As one who enjoys history and the truth behind world events I do accept that sometimes these views happen to be accurtate.

I never took the position that Castro ran Cuba without serious problems-The type of problems that you and others mention.

But Fidel didn't just magically appear in office one day. There was a chain of events leading up to his taking power that was everything to due with US policy. Castro should be accountable for his actions, the US for our actions- both of which were wrong even if one wants to argue that they were wrong on VERY different scales of justice.




Hah! Independent from what? Food? Electricity? Running water? Freedom to travel?

Tux, you've been taking the New York Times a bit too literally. Perhaps you really need to take that trip you're talking about, talk to non-government cubans to see their perspective, then come back and relate your experience.

You may have a hard time meeting these "real" cubans while you're sipping a mojito on a beach that they're not allowed to visit. Some independence, huh?

mattyboy
09-09-2005, 10:24 AM
What I think we have here is Tux's going a little stir crazy after all that time riding in boats that DON"T MAKE NOISE and GO ONLY WHERE THE WIND TAKES YOU , hopefully some HP and sun will snap him out of it :rlol:

Lenny
09-09-2005, 10:36 AM
See, you can even get in trouble in a West Wight Potter ;)

TuxedoPk
09-09-2005, 10:48 AM
I think you might be right!

What I think we have here is Tux's going a little stir crazy after all that time riding in boats that DON"T MAKE NOISE and GO ONLY WHERE THE WIND TAKES YOU , hopefully some HP and sun will snap him out of it :rlol:

MrsDigger
09-09-2005, 10:49 AM
Marcy, I've got to admit that I was hoping you'd jump in and make this more interesting as I was typing my post last night

Glad to oblige.




First, before you jump to your comment about the Blame Game, perhaps you'd like to address whether you believe that the United States' actions as described in my timeline where ethical or moral on their own ground. I contend that starting the war with Spain is akin to other nations starting wars to gain territory- Kuait, Poland, etc. The effect on Cuba was they were still the bitch- just with a new more local Pimp.



I disagree with your contention. Further, I won't make a blanket moral determination on matters of foreign policy that happened over a couple of hundred years, give or take, when there are so many parameters involved. Your timeline is oversimplified, and your so-called factual statements are biased...sort of like Kofi Annan's response to the latest report on the Oil for Food scandal...you only mention the particular events that support your theory. Cuba was a hotbed of unrest and insurgency primarily because of the way the Spaniards treated their people. Oh, and remember the U.S.S. Maine? Homework, please…



Further, I believe that securing the trade lanes for the U.S. was a pretty damn good idea.




If I am understanding you correct, you are not historically disputing what I stated about how we treated Mexico based on the fact that the Spaniards screwed the Mayans. I never heard this theory on 'Used Goods' before. Come on, that would be like saying lets stop worrying about homeland security because since we've already had a terrorist attack its fair game for anyone who wants to attack us..

First, I don’t feel any historic guilt for what happened hundreds of years before my birth. I think, for the record, that reparations and such to Mexico, or to anyone else, for the real or imagined sins of our forefathers is no more than so much extortion and emotional blackmail from the entitlement-minded. Assimilate, already.



You misunderstand me, also, when you assume I do not disagree with your “historical view of how we treated Mexico.” I’m sure I would disagree on general principle, as I view U.S. Nationalism as a positive thing, and I’m glad we won the border wars with Spain/Mexico. Feel free, however, to further elucidate your views and clarify how it is that the United States is to blame for the world’s ills.




I don't think that anyone will challenge your assertion that slavery was a european institution or that it was a blot on our history. However I find it as relevent to US-Cuba or US-Mexican history as a statement about whether chunky or smooth peanut butter tastes better. (I realize this wasn't called for but it strangely felt fun to type )



Jif is better than Skippy.

goatee
09-09-2005, 11:07 AM
Below is the report from CNN, 1,586 doctors each carrying 27 pounds of medicines also atleast 26 tons of supplies. One day soon this old bugger will croak, maybe it is time to try to get some relations going with Cuba. I think whether their policies are right or wrong we should look to better our relationship. My feeling is to accept the fig leaf!

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/09/05/katrina.cuba/index.html
i'm with mop on this one.
how old are the baby boomers now? and what is the medical industry going to be needing 10 years from now?
im not saying they will automatically defect,,, but if there are going to be ill. imm. i would rather them be doing heart surguries than shrub transplants

ChromeGorilla
09-09-2005, 11:10 AM
I think you are way out of line calling him Dick. How childish. He obviously doesn't go by that name as we all call him Rich. Not even half clever. Grow up. Please edit your post.

MrsDigger
09-09-2005, 11:12 AM
:smash: I am pretty sure he is aware that I haven't ever gone by "Marcy" as well...but in the interest of a kinder, gentler world, I will be happy to oblige.

Jif is still better than Skippy.

TuxedoPk
09-09-2005, 11:49 AM
Darcy- When I called you by the incorrect name it was either a typo or brain fart. Since it was entirely my error I'd like to appologize lest you think that would be too un-American :D

OK- You just got lucky on the Jif answer :yes:


:smash: I am pretty sure he is aware that I haven't ever gone by "Marcy" as well...but in the interest of a kinder, gentler world, I will be happy to oblige.

Jif is still better than Skippy.

TuxedoPk
09-09-2005, 12:38 PM
"Further, I won't make a blanket moral determination on matters of foreign policy that happened over a couple of hundred years, give or take, when there are so many parameters involved."

What parameters involved justified the actions as ethical or moral and not just in our best self serving interest?
_______

"your so-called factual statements are biased"
What statement(s) did I make that were factually incorrect?
_______

"Cuba was a hotbed of unrest and insurgency primarily because of the way the Spaniards treated their people."
Cuba's unrest and desire for freedom was exactly the same as the colonies unrest and desire from freedom with England
_______

"remember the U.S.S. Maine?"
Yes. William Randolf Hearst uses his papers to pump up and anger the public against Spain and convince them to suppor a war (yellow journalism) even though there was absolutely zero-nada-nil evidence that Spain sank the ship. The argument that the war actually had anything to do with the sinking of the Maine is almost like thinking we went to war with Iraq because of WMD or terrorism. Sure once could argue that are benefits to having Saddam out of office or that the US gained many territories, but these were not the real reasons behind the decisions to go to war.
________

"I don’t feel any historic guilt for what happened hundreds of years before my birth."
Nobody's asking you to feel any guilt- but that doesn't preclude you to acknowlege it. If you were big enough to acknowlege that slavery was a dot on our past surely you can acknowlege it wasn't the first or last dot in our 'acne-ed' history.
________

"I view U.S. Nationalism as a positive thing, and I’m glad we won the border wars with Spain/Mexico."

There is a difference between Nationalism and Expansionism/Imperialism. My nationalism supports winning the wars we must unfortunately fight and being wise enough to only fight the wars that are just. The US was simply going to war with Spain for its economic self interest and nothing else.
________

"Feel free, however, to further elucidate your views and clarify how it is that the United States is to blame for the world’s ills."

Other than Israel I'm not suggesting that the US is to blame for the world's ills- but I am willing to recognize that we do have quite a checkered past. Having a nation of good people is not the same as having a nation that acts good. (Somehow that came out sounding too much like a Charlie the tuna commerical) What in your opinion have we done seriously wrong in the last 200 or so years?

gcarter
09-10-2005, 07:28 PM
Now Tux, I DO know something about the Maine. While it turned out eventually (1970's) that Spain had nothing to do with the sinking of the Maine, It WAS determined (wrongly) in 1911 that a mine had sunk it. A caisson was built around the wreck, and it was drained and investigated (see pics).
The reason why was in the area of the forward barbette (I think) the keel was bent upward as though a mine had gone off under it.
It wasn't until the '70's though when a famous retired admiral (I can't remember which one) investigated the evidence from 1911 and came to a different conclusion. His conclusion was that since the coal bunkers were built around the sides of the barbettes as extra armor, and spontaneous combustion had started a fire deep in the coal. This fire eventually heated the powder in the magazine till it exploded. the explosion blew the sides out of the ship. The weight of the bow, then virtually disconnected from the rest of the ship, sank immediately, bending the keel. When the hull settled on the bottom, the keel was bent upward. This bend was determined in 1911 to be evidence of a mine.

Islander
09-10-2005, 08:22 PM
Now Tux, I DO know something about the Maine. While it turned out eventually (1970's) that Spain had nothing to do with the sinking of the Maine, It WAS determined (wrongly) in 1911 that a mine had sunk it. A caisson was built around the wreck, and it was drained and investigated (see pics).
The reason why was in the area of the forward barbette (I think) the keel was bent upward as though a mine had gone off under it.
It wasn't until the '70's though when a famous retired admiral (I can't remember which one) investigated the evidence from 1911 and came to a different conclusion. His conclusion was that since the coal bunkers were built around the sides of the barbettes as extra armor, and spontaneous combustion had started a fire deep in the coal. This fire eventually heated the powder in the magazine till it exploded. the explosion blew the sides out of the ship. The weight of the bow, then virtually disconnected from the rest of the ship, sank immediately, bending the keel. When the hull settled on the bottom, the keel was bent upward. This bend was determined in 1911 to be evidence of a mine.

George,
Your argument will be shot down because the real reason the Maine was sunk was that it was a Cheney/Rove plot. :rolleyes:

olredalert
09-10-2005, 09:08 PM
------Rich,,,,, We all know you are a smart guy. Jumping all over the first guy to post an answer your question does however seem a bit as if you were waiting in ambush. This is truly like the history lesson from hell!!!!! By the way I appear to disagree with you again, but lack your need to argue endlessly...........Bill S

Cuda
09-10-2005, 10:10 PM
Tux, is there anything you like about our country? I get sick of people running down our country. I wish they'd all move to Cuba.

Cuda
09-10-2005, 10:14 PM
Back in the mid eighties, I had a guy working for me that was a Cuban refugee, came on the Mariel Boat Lift. He said it was terrible living down there, and you didn't dare say anything bad about the government. He said Castro would say they had to cut down from one pound of meat a day to eight ounces, and they would have to applaud it, and say what a great idea it was.

I wonder how long Tux would last down there, bad mouthing the government like he does ours, before being whisked away to never be seen again.

Cuda
09-10-2005, 10:15 PM
I'm also still pissed about that whole nuclear missles pointed at us thing too.

Islander
09-11-2005, 08:42 AM
I'm not a reader of the Times because of their left wing/democrat/anti-christian/liberal distortion of the truth. As one who enjoys history and the truth behind world events I do accept that sometimes these views happen to be accurtate.

I never took the position that Castro ran Cuba without serious problems-The type of problems that you and others mention.

But Fidel didn't just magically appear in office one day. There was a chain of events leading up to his taking power that was everything to due with US policy. Castro should be accountable for his actions, the US for our actions- both of which were wrong even if one wants to argue that they were wrong on VERY different scales of justice.

You may not read the Times, but you've bought into the same dialectic argument used by the extreme left. While your timeline is arguably correct, it is not the real story. Anyone can put together certain "facts" and come up with a distorted view of history.

For one, right or wrong, every major country in the time period that you cite, the late 19th and early 20th century, was bent on expanding its territories. The US as an emerging power was no different, so to place specific blame on the US for its actions at that time is, in my opinion, unfounded in logic. Secondly, the assertion that the chain of events has "everything" to do with the US is so far off the mark that it shows a true lack of understanding of the dynamics of Latin America. The basic reason for Cuba, and the rest of Latin America for that matter, in never achieving a functioning democracy is the colonial legacy of Spain. As colonialists, the Spanish, French, and Portugese were total failures, where corruption and graft were the norm. This is in contrast to the British colonies that, while far from perfect, at least left behind a system that functions to this day, and allows for self governance. That Cuba ended up with a scumbag like Castro is entirely the fault of the Cuban people and its corrupt politicians, who failed when given the opportunity to stand up to the responsibilities of self governance.

It’s too bad the US didn’t take over and annex Cuba like it did Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California. The world, and Cuba more specifically, would undoubtedly be a better place than it is today. Just ask the citizens of those states if they would prefer being governed by Mexico.

Cuda
09-11-2005, 08:46 AM
It’s too bad the US didn’t take over and annex Cuba like it did Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California. The world, and Cuba more specifically, would undoubtedly be a better place than it is today. Just ask the citizens of those states if they would prefer being governed by Mexico.
It would be very hard to doubt that statement.

Islander
09-11-2005, 09:01 AM
It would be very hard to doubt that statement.

What disgusts me the most is that if this country fails, and I pray that it never does, it will be the fault of the self-doubting "blame the USA for everything" crowd, and saddest of all is that they are our own countrymen.

I've been fortunate to travel all over Latin America, Europe and some of Asia. They might be nice places to visit, but in comparison to the US, they suck.

TuxedoPk
09-11-2005, 09:58 AM
George- Cool photos. I'd never seen those before

'the real reason the Maine was sunk was that it was a Cheney/Rove plot'-funny!

Bill-You're probably right that it seems like I ambushed someone. It wasn't intentional but rather I was excited to find someone to have an intelligent debate with (something I do tend to enjoy) about a history (another personal interest). I really love it when someone posts facts about a subject that I never knew.

Joe- One can love their country without agreeing that all of its decisions were proper. I'll agree with you that I most likely wouldn't last down their for very long! I have a hard enough time on the board "not being wisked away" :)

Perhaps it wasn't a factor, but do you think Castro would have allowed the Russians to build those missle bases if the US hadn't tried unsuccessfully to remove him from power in the Bay of Pigs?

"You may not read the Times, but you've bought into the same dialectic argument used by the extreme left." Even a stopped clock is accurate twice a day.

Islander- You are correct about the fact that the US was not the only country set out on expansionism... but that does'nt make our slaughter of the indians or annexation of other nations any more morally superior to Germany invading Poland or Iraq invading Kuait.

Spain's poor job of running their colonies (as opposed to the British whose job our founding father's had problems with) set the stage for Cuba to want its independence. Our involvement in Cuba would be the same as the US comming under the French as they supported our Independence from England.

"The world, and Cuba more specifically, would undoubtedly be a better place than it is today."
That argument could be successfully used not just with Cuba but with many other nations throughout the world. But... just because it may be true doesn't justify Manifest Destiny.

TuxedoPk
09-11-2005, 10:07 AM
My prayers are with you for our country to succeed

My belief is that if we ever do fail it will be as a result of our self rightousness

Looking at our policies and actions openly and through the eyes of those around us is the only way to ensure our future. I believe it is better to go thru periods of self doubt and thrive than allow arrogance and self rightousness to cause us to perish.


What disgusts me the most is that if this country fails, and I pray that it never does, it will be the fault of the self-doubting "blame the USA for everything" crowd, and saddest of all is that they are our own countrymen.

I've been fortunate to travel all over Latin America, Europe and some of Asia. They might be nice places to visit, but in comparison to the US, they suck.

olredalert
09-11-2005, 10:37 AM
-------I would have to give Rich a C- for his "attempt" at deflecting valid criticism of all his points by trying to change the subject to the "slaughter of native americans". Youre the one who asked about Cuba, so stick to the point. I was with a couple of similarly "bent" friends a couple of weeks ago in Pennsylvania and they tried the same style of deflection, throw a lot of stuff against the wall and see what sticks. Didnt work then either.........Bill S

Islander
09-11-2005, 11:42 AM
My prayers are with you for our country to succeed

My belief is that if we ever do fail it will be as a result of our self rightousness

Looking at our policies and actions openly and through the eyes of those around us is the only way to ensure our future. I believe it is better to go thru periods of self doubt and thrive than allow arrogance and self rightousness to cause us to perish.

In my opinion, the greatest self-rightousness and arrogance is displayed by people who, like you, need to second guess everything that happened in the past, and by convoluted logic end up preventing the country from acting in a manner that best suits its own interests in the present. Becoming a nation of doubting pantywaists sure sounds like a formula for failure to me.

gcarter
09-11-2005, 12:04 PM
George-

Spain's poor job of running their colonies (as opposed to the British whose job our founding father's had problems with) set the stage for Cuba to want its independence. Our involvement in Cuba would be the same as the US comming under the French as they supported our Independence from England.

"The world, and Cuba more specifically, would undoubtedly be a better place than it is today."
That argument could be successfully used not just with Cuba but with many other nations throughout the world. But... just because it may be true doesn't justify Manifest Destiny.
About the maine and yellow journalism, obviously there was argument from pacifists at the time about what sunk the Maine, otherwise there wouldn't have been the investigation into it in 1911, it must have still been a hot topic. But to the minds of the investigators, it was settled, it was mined. I was taught it was mined in the '50's. That it was mined was the best information we had until the '70's. Therefore an argument other than that based on information that came from a later time (the '70's) wouldn't stand. The same argument stands about slavery, there was a time when every part of the world had slaves. Slavery was accepted by most people, it was the law of every land. People have to come to an agreement by themselves, and on their own that something is right or wrong. Even Jesus said not to try to change laws by insurection. The reason is, Christianity will work in any circumstance, and in any part of the world. Now, I'll make a prediction here, that in ten or so years, there will be a similar change of minds and hearts about abortion. Such things take time.
Now, the point of my post. I'm surprised you haven't commented on the Monroe Doctrine. The concept was we, the USA, would protect the Western Hemisphere from European Colonization. It was a good thing, not bad. Our dear, departed former president, JFK, negotiated away the Monroe Doctrine to convince the Soviets to withdraw their missles. We turned our backs on the Western Hemisphere. The Soviets stayed in Cuba, and started to build bases of power in other countries. Don't y'all remember Grenada, and the Sandanistas?

Islander
09-11-2005, 12:16 PM
Islander- You are correct about the fact that the US was not the only country set out on expansionism... but that does'nt make our slaughter of the indians or annexation of other nations any more morally superior to Germany invading Poland or Iraq invading Kuait.

Spain's poor job of running their colonies (as opposed to the British whose job our founding father's had problems with) set the stage for Cuba to want its independence. Our involvement in Cuba would be the same as the US comming under the French as they supported our Independence from England.

"The world, and Cuba more specifically, would undoubtedly be a better place than it is today."
That argument could be successfully used not just with Cuba but with many other nations throughout the world. But... just because it may be true doesn't justify Manifest Destiny.

No one here has brought up moral equivalence, personally I don't care much for that term. My concern is not Germany's or Iraq's or any other country's morality relative to ours, my only concern is the well-being of this country. I believe our interests would perhaps have been better served by annexing Cuba, and I also think that, had Cuba been annexed it would be far better off than it is today. I happen to think that that would be justification enough. Or do you feel that people should stay oppressed purely on principle?

thriller
09-11-2005, 12:42 PM
Political issues and American History aside..The Question I read is should, America accept help/aide from Cuba....Your call?

It's still fresh in my mind that Don Aronow was murdered by these people:idea:

MM

onesubdrvr
09-11-2005, 12:53 PM
Uhhhh, I'm confused, is Jack Frost here already,....I was just outside, thought it would be a beautiful day for boating,.......if I wasn't painting the house!!


Wayne

Islander
09-11-2005, 12:57 PM
Political issues and American History aside..The Question I read is should, America accept help/aide from Cuba....Your call?

It's still fresh in my mind that Don Aronow was murdered by these people:idea:

MM

I think it was a nice American fella by the name of Kramer.

thriller
09-11-2005, 01:34 PM
I think it was a nice American fella by the name of Kramer.

That could be debated but let's not go there..Let's go boating!:wink: :ribbon:

TuxedoPk
09-11-2005, 02:13 PM
Bill- I too have a real problem when people pull wild ass deflctions in a debate however I don't see where I did that. I re-read my post and Geoges, Joe's and Islander's comments to it. My comment outside of the original context of Cuba was most appropriate as a response to Islander's post which enlarged the scope to a world view in which the United States was acting similar to other world powers.

If you feel that any of the information I have mentioned is factually incorrect please challenge it. Despite your comment that I've "attemp(ed) to deflect valid critism" I believe that you will be hard pressed to identify what specific critism's I've failed to directly address.


-------I would have to give Rich a C- for his "attempt" at deflecting valid criticism of all his points by trying to change the subject to the "slaughter of native americans". Youre the one who asked about Cuba, so stick to the point. I was with a couple of similarly "bent" friends a couple of weeks ago in Pennsylvania and they tried the same style of deflection, throw a lot of stuff against the wall and see what sticks. Didnt work then either.........Bill S

boldts
09-11-2005, 02:18 PM
I probably should stay out of this since I don't really know anything about it, but I'm bored at work today.

My question is. Shouldn't we allow all the people from other countries that have received an education at our universities for free to come back and pay through service? I believe we should take care of our own first. There must be something right about the good ole U.S.A. Everyone wants in. You don't find a whole lot of people leaving America to live in other countries unless their job forces them to move. Like mentioned already, great places to visit, but always great to feel the airplane wheels touching back down in the homeland.

I for one am thankful every day my eyes open because I have the opportunity to enjoy a day in which I'm free to travel to any state without someone or some religion putting a gun in my face and threatning to kill me if I continue my trip. Freedom is a wonderful thing and it's why so many want to be a part of the American way. It's probably why those in other countries hate Americans with such a passion. They know they will never be able to live the way Americans live. Kind of like how many of us hated the well to do kid in high school because he was driving a new Shelby, Corvette, Hemi, Porche or Ferrarri? (sp) See, I can't even spell it. LOL

Be thankful and support America or hit the pike! We don't need people bringing our country down. There is way to much of that! Blame it on the elected President, political parties or whoever. Only we together can change our country for the better of it's people. Put that spare change in your pocket in a childs hand who is collecting for the Red Cross to help Americans from the Gulf Coast. Show Americans we do care what happens to our own!

TuxedoPk
09-11-2005, 02:24 PM
Since I posted the question originally I'm willing to share my opinion-
We should accept aid from anyone who wishes to give it putting humanitarianism ahead of nationalism.

I feel the long term benefits of having citizens of other nations, be it Cuba or any other, working side by side with Americans for a just cause will far outweigh any short tem negative public relations spin a corrupt government might put on the effort.


Political issues and American History aside..The Question I read is should, America accept help/aide from Cuba....Your call?
MM

66Tropez
09-11-2005, 02:51 PM
My 2cents, how could we accept any help from a country that we do not recognize their doctors degrees or proffesions. From what I know the cubans that defect to this country with a doctor degree or any other degree have to do it all over again. So to this country their degree is worthless.

thriller
09-11-2005, 04:09 PM
My 2cents, how could we accept any help from a country that we do not recognize their doctors degrees or proffesions. From what I know the cubans that defect to this country with a doctor degree or any other degree have to do it all over again. So to this country their degree is worthless.

First, I'd like to Welcome you to the Board;)
I also feel compelled to add that in a time of need, those that have something to offer, whether it's a recognized degree or not, are simply reaching out to help those less fortunate.

Kudo's to those who have made a difference and a sacrifice.

MM

Cuda
09-11-2005, 05:17 PM
"The world, and Cuba more specifically, would undoubtedly be a better place than it is today."
That argument could be successfully used not just with Cuba but with many other nations throughout the world. But... just because it may be true doesn't justify Manifest Destiny.
Do you think their "manifest destiny" is more important than their well being? Ask some of the impoverished people of the world which is more important. I imagine food and medical attention rates way ahead of thier "manifest destiny".

TuxedoPk
09-11-2005, 05:56 PM
Manifest destiny was the term given to the belief that it was America's divinely-inspired mission to expand. Be it the 700 club, the Spanish Inquisition, or 9/11, we should realize that divinely-inspired missions tend to be extremely 'un-Christian'.

Helping the impoverished people of the world could have and can be accomplished without the need to take control of other nations.
(I think about how pissed off we'd be if France offered support for the New Orleans victims but with a caveat that they gained the right to approve or disapprove our Supreme Court nominations and then how pissed we be if we were in such a desperate position that we had to accept those terms.)



Do you think their "manifest destiny" is more important than their well being? Ask some of the impoverished people of the world which is more important. I imagine food and medical attention rates way ahead of thier "manifest destiny".

Cuda
09-11-2005, 06:35 PM
It's very easy for the intelligensia to discuss how the impoverished nations should be governed, when all the population wants is something to eat.

gcarter
09-11-2005, 06:45 PM
Tux, I would gladly accept help from the Cuban people, but not from Castro.
So where does that leave us?
I guess we wait another ten or so years, eh?

TuxedoPk
09-11-2005, 06:57 PM
Ok, I'm willing to meet you 1/2 way.. Accept help from the world, just not Fidel and I'll throw in Bin Ladin just in case he offers to hand out water or something :) Perhaps ten years but somehow I get the feeling we are looking at Castro being gone from the world stage within three years.

"It's very easy for the intelligensia to discuss how the impoverished nations should be governed, when all the population wants is something to eat."
Joe- You are totally dead on right with this. Its unfortunate whenever a nation (ours or any other) allows politics and posturing to get in the way of providing food and health care to the population.


Tux, I would gladly accept help from the Cuban people, but not from Castro.
So where does that leave us?
I guess we wait another ten or so years, eh?

Cuda
09-11-2005, 07:00 PM
It's hard to believe that Fidel is by far the longest running head of government in the world.