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rustnrot
09-02-2005, 08:52 AM
Talk about the Pot calling the Kettle black!! Hopefully it is becoming obvious to even the last of his 37% of his "supporters" that he continues to distance himself from Responsibility for this country. What a coward!!

We have gone down hill a long way from Truman's "The Buck Stops Here".

roadtrip se
09-02-2005, 09:34 AM
it's a fricking disaster.

All of the finger pointing, politicing, and whining about gas prices...Embarassing.

The media is putting every moron and incident they can find on national television. People are doing dumb things, but read between the lines, and you can see it isn't the majority. If I'm sitting in my living room in London watching these reports on the telly, I'm probably not reaching for my pocket book to write out a check to the Red Cross either. We look like idiots to the world right now and you can thank the media for a part of that.

What is George supposed to do? Drop water from Airforce One? Getting supplies in and out of an area that is 80% covererd in water represents a unique challenge unlike any other we have ever faced, including what happend in the aftermath of Andrew and 9/11. We are having a hard time getting to these people. Can we do better? Yes.

Why were all of those people still there when the storm rolled in? I have heard all of the poverty stories, but if I know I live in a bowl below sea level and I'm being ask to leave.. . I scrape together my pennies and high tail it to the Greyhound Station. This fact somehow tempers my empathy for those dumb enough to stay.

Any way, we are losing sight of what is going on here. There are a zillion ways to help out in your own way. In the mean time, As my momma used to say to me, if you don't have anything positive to say or a solution to the problem, then just shut up!

txtaz
09-02-2005, 09:42 AM
I'm with roadtrip. It's easier to complain than do something constructive. Too many words, not enough action. Some of these decision makers at the scene should be telling the media to take a hike. They have more important things to do than give interviews. Where are the priorities?
Wes

gcarter
09-02-2005, 09:56 AM
I fou


Debra J. Saunders
A flood of Bush-bashing
Debra J. Saunders

Friday, September 2, 2005


Printable Version
Email This Article

Debra J Saunders

IT IS ONLY a matter of hours now that, after any catastrophe anywhere in the world -- a tsunami, a hurricane, a terrorist bombing on the London tube -- Bush haters find ways to blame President Bush. Hurricane Katrina? Bush haters have pointed their fingers at global warming, the war on terrorism, the Bush tax cuts, the national dependence on oil -- and in every category, Bush is the root of the evil.

Forget nature. George W. Bush is more powerful.

The German environment minister and U.S. enviro Robert F. Kennedy cited global warming as a cause for the hurricane. It doesn't matter if data show, as James Glassman of TechCentralStation pointed out, the peak for major hurricanes came in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s. Columnist Molly Ivins criticized Bush for cutting $71 million from the New Orleans Corps of Engineers -- even though the levee that broke had just been upgraded.

Are National Guardsmen in Iraq? Yes, some 35 percent are, but more are in Louisiana, and nearby police and firefighters can pitch in.

Bush haters who want to appear less rabid than their quick counterparts wait a whole day or so. Thursday the New York Times editorial page hit Bush for delivering a bad speech about the hurricane's aftermath, for grinning while he spoke and for asking Americans to donate cash but not asking them to sacrifice.

The day before, the paper opined "this seems like the wrong moment to dwell on fault-finding, or even to point out that it took what may become the worst natural disaster in American history to pry President Bush out of his vacation."

It's not as pithy as some of the other anti-Bush slogans, but here's an idea for a T-shirt slogan: "Clinton vacationed at Martha's Vineyard and nobody died."

Others have lighted on left-leaning targets. They blame residents of New Orleans for living in a city built largely below sea level. They fault homeowners who live near the beach. Of course, industries like shipping and tourism exist because of those locations. When you think about it, every locale has its hazard, be it hurricane, blistering heat, blizzard, earthquake or tornado.

Some blame families who did not heed the call to evacuate -- including families who didn't have a car, money or a place to go to.

On the right, there is triumph in how the left should be held accountable for America's failure to build more refineries -- as the hurricane damage drives up the price of gasoline. Some gloat that if the left had allowed drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, the nation's oil supply would not be an issue. And what about all those liberal Californians who drive SUVs?

Say what you will, but all of the above arguments are a luxury. Alabama families are dredging water from their living rooms. In the Big Easy, women have had to wade through the nasty liquid clutching a few belongings. And for them the big issues were: Where do I go? What will I do for work? Where is my dog? Did my neighbor make it? How long will I have to sleep in a shelter? Do I even want to go back to the town that I call home?

They aren't stranded because of politics, SUVs or climate change. They are stranded because a planet that graces us with sunshine and warmth also makes storms.

They are stranded because a powerful storm cut a swath through their universe. They thought they could handle it. They survived Camille, or some other storm, and they thought they'd be better off at home. They wanted to be near their families and their pets. They never knew it could get this bad. They had made the same choice before, and it worked for them.

This time, what worked before failed. At times like this, Americans need to help each other.

E-mail: dsaunders@sfchronicle.com
nd this pretty interesting....

JPR
09-02-2005, 10:56 AM
Well, there is a thoughtful, balanced and very human perspective on this horrible natural disaster. Common sense goes along way and sometimes it is tough to put oneself in the position of the people shown in the incredible images that we are seeing. Imagine actually being there.

RedDog
09-02-2005, 11:41 AM
Talk about the Pot calling the Kettle black!! Hopefully it is becoming obvious to even the last of his 37% of his "supporters" that he continues to distance himself from Responsibility for this country. What a coward!!

We have gone down hill a long way from Truman's "The Buck Stops Here".

Geez - and what would your response be if he had said current efforts are acceptable. It is obvious that more must be done, ergo the current effort is not acceptable. It is also apparent that you have not read the context of this sound-bite in order to put it into perspective.

Thank god that people with this kind of warped view are in the minority

rustnrot
09-02-2005, 01:00 PM
Bush has had plenty of time to Take Charge rather than complain about the lack of support. He spent Tuesday, the day after Katrina struck, at a Medicare event in Arizona and then he made his way to a San Diego naval base for yet another anniversary tribute to the Greatest Generation.

This was a moment for national leadership, and he did not rise to the occasion in a timely manner.

Yes, I am in the "minority" of 53% of the people that disapprove of the way this President is running the country. I guess those years at UT Knoxville (I graduated in 1979) may have also had an effect on me..........

ChromeGorilla
09-02-2005, 01:18 PM
C'mon he spent 30 minutes after cutting HIS vacation short (2 days AFTER Katrina) in AF1 doing a little spin around NO......he's doing everything he can..... The best one IMO is they have video form the Superdome of people begging to get out of there, elderly and infants dieing, no busses of any help what so ever at the dome, then they cut from that live report to his press confrence. And one of his lines is "right now we have busses shuttling those in need at the superdome to a safer place..." as one of his examples of what they are doing to help. What a crock of ****. They were just showing there was ZERO help for thosepeople not 2 minutes before..... This dude is so out of touch. :banghead:

gcarter
09-02-2005, 01:20 PM
It's not as though GWB were in limbo when he's not in Washington......
He's got to be the most connected person in the world!!!!!
We surely don't know the rest of his schedule during that period of time.
Actually it sounds like good time management to me.
It just takes time to get these things put together.

Marlin275
09-02-2005, 01:28 PM
He spent Tuesday, the day after Katrina struck, at a Medicare event in Arizona and then he made his way to a San Diego naval base for yet another anniversary tribute to the Greatest Generation.


The city was dry a day after the hurricane past.
WHERE WAS THE LEVEE REPAIR CREW?
I haven't seen video of one sandbag put in place in all these days.

David O
09-02-2005, 03:17 PM
I have kept off the site for a while now because of all the BS but for those of you that have not been here and experienced the likes of Camille, Andrew, Ivan, Katrina then quit the bitching and finger pointing and start writing checks to the relief efforts you support.
Assisting the “moronic” media in getting the county all pissed off does not save lives.

DO SOMETHING POSITIVE AND HELP YOUR FELLOW MAN

If you don’t approve of how things are being handled it’s OK but for now keep the Monday morning quarterbacking to yourself, do something positive.
Remember your opinions for the next election.
I was here for Camille, Fredric, Erin, Opal, Ivan, Dennis, Katrina and so many more that I can’t remember the names.
I flew a relief mission From Pensacola, FL to Houma, LA, 27 miles southwest of New Orleans yesterday and few directly over the coast from Pensacola and over the city of New Orleans. Gene Schmidt has taken the company 100KW generator to Biloxi and set it up at a location where the School officials are hoping to set up office and get kids back in School ASAP. We are working non stop today on the Biloxi High School/Storm Shelter design we did a few years back, converting the generator system over from storm shelter requirements to hospital requirements so that the west wing of the school can be set up as a hospital. Things are happening by many, helping each other.

The quickest and best help ALWAYS comes from each other, not the government.

The media is concentrating on New Orleans but Please realize they are only a small part of the total impact of Katrina but the most news worthy. The small towns don't make good news cause those people take care of each other for the most part.

My only question right now is when the mandatory evacuation was ordered, why was transportation not provided to those in need at that time. Many of those still there were left not by their choice but because of their economic condition. From what I have seen of the area it would have been much easier to remove them then from dry land then to remove them now from underwater.

Sounds a lot like I am rambling and I probably am, I am still at a loss for words from all of this but one thing I do know is the country would be a lot better off if the Media was also at a loss for words and devote their time to telling the rest of you what you could do to help.

mattyboy
09-02-2005, 03:19 PM
all good points there MP
I have lived thru the tragedy of 911 I saw way too much death and destruction but this might sound crazy it is different than a natural disaster, you have a common enemy the terrorist who commited the terrible crime to channel your emotions thru someone to hate and be mad at, someone to show you're not down and out and you will rebuild, someone who you know someday will pay for it. But in a natural diaster who do you hold responsible, the closest I have been was a hurricane in sept of 78-79 and most recent was Floyd were things got flooded neighbors lost trees and had basements full of water all lend helping hands to each other and in a day or two things are back to normal no where near what the southeast US has been going thru in recent times
The media will play its part in all of these events as They see fit not as We
see fit I would just love to see the news bunny all done up with makeup just put down the mike and lend a hand to the victims they're filming

i guess instead of mandatory evacuations we should scrap the constitution and have force military evacuations go door to door and round people up
those that refuse are not innocent but willing criminals and then they are responsible for the outcome with no one to blame but themselves

let's not forget the responsibilty of the engineers years ago who had a hand in building a large city in a spot below sea level???

I wish I could give alot more but I have stretched things thin with contributions to local charities in various fund raisers including trying to help the family of young man killed in Iraq
man I need a lil good news so I'm leaving the TV off this weekend

rustnrot
09-02-2005, 04:01 PM
Spending a few moments on this forum has helped me leverage myself into action. The wife and I are going to help a displaced family. A friend of mine called today and is donating one of his rental apartments for several months and also help them find a job here locally. Our role is helping to keep their refrigerator stocked at first.

blackhawk
09-02-2005, 04:30 PM
Madpoodle, what about the people that COULDN'T leave? And more importantly, what about the people that DID do the right thing and left only to die of dehydration at the dome, the convention center or elsewhere?

Roadtrip, what is GW suppose to do? How about act like a LEADER and see the seriousness of the situation. Then start working with the State and Local governments IMMEDIATELY to develop a plan of action. At the very least pretend like you are being a leader so the population will percieve you are trying. I am sorry, but showing up FOUR days later is not even close to the right thing to do.


RedDog, Bush had a 37% approval rating BEFORE his recenet actions so who is the minority? What will his approval rating be next week? 30?

Am I complaining? Hell yes I am. I take home a little over half of what I make every week and this is how my money is spent? I have a right to my opinion and my opinion is our Government, not just Bush, screwed up BIG TIME. But Bush, as our elected leader, has a resonsibility to act like a leader and make his very best attempt to take immediate action.

I am a republican for the most part. But I AM NOT a Bush fan. Bush is a horrible leader. How he has handled this catastrophy proves it loud and clear. I usually keep my mouth shut about political posts. 9-11, The War in Iraq, etc. I've, for the most,part kept quiet. But I will not keep quiet about he handled this. Again, I don't blame him directly, but I do blame him for his lack of leadership that made this situation worse.

Fresh water, and GW, showed up FOUR days after Katrina hit. People that did the right thing and evacuated died in the places they were taken to from dehydration. This, in my opinion, is totally unacceptable.

Too little, too late.

Islander
09-02-2005, 04:44 PM
Fresh water, and GW, showed up FOUR days after Katrina hit. People that did the right thing and evacuated died in the places they were taken to from dehydration. This, in my opinion, is totally unacceptable.

Too little, too late.

Uhh...since when is it the federal govt's job to evacuate people? Last I heard, that's the job of state and local governments. It's funny that people who bitch about too much government are the first to bitch when the Uncle Sam ain't there to change their diapers.

David O
09-02-2005, 05:04 PM
Uhh...since when is it the federal govt's job to evacuate people? Last I heard, that's the job of state and local governments. It's funny that people who bitch about too much government are the first to bitch when the Uncle Sam ain't there to change their diapers.


BINGO

Someone finally got it.

The responsibility falls first on the Mayor for the city, then the governor and when the Pres of the states sees they dropped the ball he sould step in and apparenty did.

Now let's see everyone else step up and help.

smokediver
09-02-2005, 06:04 PM
While the situation is certainly bad , having been involved with Andrew , I know how long these rescue/recovery operations take . You have to remember that during the Andrew aftermath , there were thousands of rescuers but they were not being managed properly and therefore were very ineffective until something called the Incident Management System was put in place . It's real easy and understandable why people get so fustrated , but honestly , these things take time to get in place and then there can be a systematic search/rescue/recovery/relief . I am not too sure how many people have pumped water out of a city the size of New Orleans before , but the shoulda woulda coulda is kind of beside the point now .. Now is the time to get to the job of trying to get peoples' lives back to normal . I tell you one thing .... I can't stand critics . They sit on the side lines , sucking their thumbs , waiting to tell you how it should be done . They don't know the feeling of victory or the heartache of defeat . They just open their little soup coolers to make their moronic political points at the cost of other peoples misery ...

txtaz
09-02-2005, 06:17 PM
BUSH SUCKS ASS:lobster:
Instead of bitching, go do something. Besides bitching shows a certain level of intelligence.
Poodle nailed it, if you haven't been there, you don't know what it's like. I've only been through small ones (cat 2). I can't imagine what this is like in person.
Wes

BUIZILLA
09-02-2005, 06:37 PM
BUSH SUCKS ASS:lobster:you and I are NOT going to get along.... in fact, do not ever, and I mean EVER, get anywhere's near me.... you are as clueless as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Jim

Islander
09-02-2005, 07:04 PM
you and I are NOT going to get along.... in fact, do not ever, and I mean EVER, get anywhere's near me.... you are as clueless as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Jim

LOL

Thank God he lives in Connecticut and not here.

gcarter
09-02-2005, 07:23 PM
The city was dry a day after the hurricane past.
WHERE WAS THE LEVEE REPAIR CREW?
I haven't seen video of one sandbag put in place in all these days.
It's obvious you haven't been watching Fox News Channel. For if you had, you would have seen very large Naval helicopters dropping large sand bags (about the size of a small car) continuously into the breach for two days now. Maybe your sources aren't very good. ;)

DonCig
09-02-2005, 07:44 PM
Here's a little story about a man called Jed! (Joe B. is his real name.)

Hillbillies!

Black Gold!



Last Tuesday night I was in LA having dinner with some business colleagues and a new business acquaintance and his wife were talking about the vacation that they were leaving on the next morning to go to "The Big Easy"

All of the rest of us said "are you shure you want to head down there! There is a Hurricane headed that way!" (First chance to make a good decision.)

They got on the plane on Wed. am after calling the prestigous hotels front desk in New Orleans and confirming that it was OK to come on down. "Come on down and spend some MONEY!" (Second chance to make a good decision.)

They arrived at the New Orleans airport and hired a taxi to take them downtown to their hotel.

The taxi driver asked them "what are you guys nuts! everybody’s leaving town!"

They explained that the hotel said that everything would be fine and they could come on down! (At this point they are getting worried about two bad decisions!)

When they asked the taxi driver to take them back to the airport, the taxi driver said that there were no available flights out of New Orleans.

So they went to the hotel. (Third chance to make a good decision.)

They made a phone call this Sunday to say they were on the 35 floor and alive and that they were being herded down the 3rd floor of the hotel.

Next phone call on Tuesday was that had left New Orleans but they did not know where they were being taken.

Next phone call was that they would arrive in L.A. on Thursday night.

As of Friday night at 5:28 p.m. CA time we still have not heard from them.



Note: They made a comment on one of the calls that they should sue the Hotel for telling them that it was OK to come down. I will attribute part of this comment to the Southern California mentality of wanting to sue everyone. I do business in Southern California and the population has become accustomed to sueing others for their own ingnorance. But the couple had three chances to make a good or safe decision, and they failed each time.

I hope they get home safe and sound, but in the future if you have three chances to make a good decision and you fail on all three, please do not tell me that it is our governments fault that you are hungry, thirsty and dont like the living conditions!

I, like any American will do what I can to help people get back on their feet, but this country was founded on people taking responsibity for their actions. And we should hold the government to be accountable for theirs. Lets work together so that next time more of us make the right decision the first time.

DonCig

gcarter
09-02-2005, 07:44 PM
The points about local government are very appropriate.
For instance, the Drudge Report has this item with a headline that reads;
WHY DIDN'T YOU DEPLOY THE BUSES DURING THE MANDATORY EVACUATION, MAYOR?...

ChromeGorilla
09-02-2005, 07:51 PM
you and I are NOT going to get along.... in fact, do not ever, and I mean EVER, get anywhere's near me.... you are as clueless as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Jim



Awwww, c'mon Jim I think the same thing about Bush. Not for the events of the last few days but for my own reasons, and I still love ya.... :bighug:

I just try to stay out of political commentary and who is right and who is wrong schtick....... Like the Commodores said Jim, "I'm easy like Sunday morning"............. :biggrin:

DonCig
09-02-2005, 09:49 PM
1. People that were in this event will in 25 years be called "old folks" and will have the wisdom to advise those younger; what the "right" decision should be in the future.

2. We get to see the power of the human race to overcome adversity and swing a hammer and drive a nail to rebuild and restore their lives.

3. We will see the strength of the American people to take care of their own without needing to rely on overseas interests.

4. We will get to see the positives of our democratic government and our ability as citizens to constructively criticize their actions so that in the future we all can do a better job, no matter how well we performed this time.

5. We will see the positives and negatives of capitalism. But the end result will be a rebuilding of what was lost, only this time it will be cleaner, better designed, and boast civic pride that far exceeds what they had.



I am proud to be an American, and I will embrace the the great amount of good that is sometimes is served with a little piece of bad.:ribbon:



Sincerely,

Don

Marlin275
09-02-2005, 09:53 PM
It's obvious you haven't been watching Fox News Channel. For if you had, you would have seen very large Naval helicopters dropping large sand bags (about the size of a small car) continuously into the breach for two days now. Maybe your sources aren't very good. ;)

g
I was talkin bout stopping the water before it started flooding.
Sure they're fixing it now !
This is what I'm talkin about -

In interviews and a telephone conference call with reporters, senior officials and engineers from up and down the ranks of the Army Corps of Engineers conceded that they had no ability to detect quickly small breaches in the matrix of 350 miles of levees around New Orleans.

Unless such holes can be blocked early, the water will almost invariably rip away at the edges, widening the breach.

The officials and engineers said that after they had found the widening gap in the concrete wall on the eastern side of the canal, they had no quick-response plan to repair it.

Even as they tried to improvise a solution while water continued to pour into neighborhood after neighborhood, their efforts were hampered by a lack of heavy helicopters, most of which had been dispatched by federal emergency officials to rescue stranded residents.

"The first priority of the rotary-winged aircraft was to rescue people," Lt. Gen. Carl A. Strock, commander of the corps, said in the conference call. "Plugging the gap was a lower priority." . . .

. . . The Corps of Engineers, should have arranged access to supplies like sandbags and concrete barriers, the way environmental planners reserve access to materials for oil spills.

"You'd have all that on contract,". "You have contractors with all those potential needs in place."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/national/nationalspecial/02levee.html

txtaz
09-02-2005, 10:18 PM
Very nice Don.

MrsDigger
09-03-2005, 12:19 AM
Bless all of you who have common sense...especially YOU, Jim. I thought (again) that people would show some degree of common sense...but I was gravely mistaken. The STATE is responsible for disaster plans...not the President. The President, and the fact that the U.S. did not sign the Kyoto Protocol, is NOT the reason this hurricane happened. (Cindy Sheehan, drop the crack rock and step away from the microphone...you defile your son and everything he stood for!)

Complacency is what caused such a colossal degree of death and injury. The people of the gulf coast dodged the bullet so many times that they imagined their cities invincible. They were wrong. When the order is given to evacuate, here's a newsflash! It means GET THE HELL OUT! That would be why they call it mandatory. I have sympathy for those without the means to evacuate, and I hope that the innocent are spared the effects of Darwinism at its most raw. Still, it is difficult to muster much sympathy for those who stayed even when they had the means to leave; those who now blame the federal government for their own poor choices; those who denigrate the brave men and women of SAR and the myriad various rescue teams merely because such teams are slow to save them from their own colossal stupidity.


Finally, the descent into anarchy as exhibited by the vicious, bestial, cretins roaming wildly through the vestiges of the city, spreading mayhem and attacking their would-be rescuers is something you would, perhaps, expect to see in a third-world country...since when does being poor and living in the inner city give anyone the right to behave as those people in New Orleans are behaving? It looks like something out of the Lord of the Flies...and makes the rest of the world look askance at the character of our nation.

It isn't MY nation that is looting, raping, pillaging, and destroying the selfsame infrastructure that provided those entitlement programs that begat such disrespect of God, country, and self.

Dennis Hastert had it right when he suggested that we might choose NOT to rebuild New Orleans. This type of natural disaster WILL happen again. Nature has a way of trivializing the best laid plans of men...when you build a city on the coastline, below sea level, you can have no rational, logical expectation that such a city will long survive.

You should, however, be able to maintain a reasonable expectation that in times of great crisis, humankind will rise ABOVE itself, and not descend into depravity and chaos. Unfortunately, New Orleans is proving this not to be so...I hope the animals doing the raping and the looting and the murdering will burn...

ZBoater
09-03-2005, 02:54 AM
What in the world does Cindy Sheehan have to do with the fact that Bush (or more accurately, his handlers) have dropped the ball? (Photos) (http://hughesforamerica.typepad.com/hughes_for_america/2005/08/august_2930_200.html)

Folks who are part of the solution are the only ones who have any right to armchair quarterback this situation.

When they've cleaned out your pockets, let the Red Cross drain your veins. Got an empty bedroom? Why not give one of those impoverished innocents an opportunity at a better life? Organize your friends to sponsor a family. Volunteer at a phone bank. Car pool to work and send the savings to a relief organization. Convince your employer to match employee contributions and then pressure your peers to up their ante. Do something. Anything. And then you'll have earned the right.

And you will probably be too tired to exercise that right. I certainly am.

Kudos to DavidO and MadPoodle and Mattyboy and RustnRot and the unsung many of this board who have taken action. :bighug:

gcarter
09-03-2005, 07:25 AM
Mr Zboater, this is a cheap shot;
You don't know how much Darcy or anyone else on this board has contributed, or their personal experiances.
I haven't said a word about about this, but I've been going through hurricanes on a regular basis since 1944, having been raised on the Texas Gulf coast. In 1948 my families airport and FBO were almost wiped off the face of the earth. Three airplanes out of almost thirty made it through that storm. Annually I donate more than 10% of my gross income to worthy causes. According to YOUR rules, I have the right to comment.
Anyone can put together a group of photos like this. The president has the ability to have video conferences with anyone on the face of the earth. He, or any president,doesn't have to be IN Washington to be affective. GWB is not a poser like BJ was. All those phony tears we saw for eight years, the trembling bottom lip, the victims always in the photo frame. What a con he was. I think the best example of this was after Ron Browns funeral, BJ and two others were emerging from the White House whooping it up from some joke being told. As soon as BJ saw the press, he immediately put on a somber face, lowered his head a little, and squeezed out a little tear. That was the REAL BJ!!! A phony through and through.
I believe we have a leader in GWB who doesn't shirk his duty, and isn't led by polls. His goals don't change. They are never the flavor of the day according to the latest polls. I believe at the end of the day, he will be known as a great president, one who didn't change just because his support numbers were going down.

Carl C
09-03-2005, 07:39 AM
Talking politics on this forum might be a bad idea. What's next, a debate on religion?:boat: :boat: :boat: :boat: :boat: :boat:

gcarter
09-03-2005, 08:03 AM
What decade has had the most and most dangerous storms?
The answer is here;
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastdec.shtml?
It might surprise you but it was 1941-1950!!!!

mattyboy
09-03-2005, 08:05 AM
:bighug:
can't we all get along
but if we have to bring up the foam thing
someone is gonna pay


:yes: :rlol:


the sea is a powerful force what it givesaway it always reclaims

Cuda
09-03-2005, 08:17 AM
LOL

Thank God he lives in Connecticut

There's a shocker. :rolleyes:

BUIZILLA
09-03-2005, 08:39 AM
why do you live in this country? or do you.....

picture 2 and 4 clearly depict MANDATORY evacuation area's, if that idiot on the coast waterfront decided to stay in a wood stick building, ON THE SHORELINE..... you get my drift...
The other pic clearly depicts automobiles, that can be used for EVACUATION purposes, before the storm, but noooooooo, they choose to use a rowboat after the fact... duhhhhhhh

Jim

MrsDigger
09-03-2005, 08:40 AM
What in the world does Cindy Sheehan have to do with the fact that Bush (or more accurately, his handlers) have dropped the ball? (Photos) (http://hughesforamerica.typepad.com/hughes_for_america/2005/08/august_2930_200.html)

Cindy Sheehan publicly stated, and was quoted by multiple sources, that Hurricane Katrina was President Bush's fault. I mean, sure, he is the leader of the free world, but even he isn't that powerful...


Folks who are part of the solution are the only ones who have any right to armchair quarterback this situation.

When they've cleaned out your pockets, let the Red Cross drain your veins. Got an empty bedroom? Why not give one of those impoverished innocents an opportunity at a better life? Organize your friends to sponsor a family. Volunteer at a phone bank. Car pool to work and send the savings to a relief organization. Convince your employer to match employee contributions and then pressure your peers to up their ante. Do something. Anything. And then you'll have earned the right.

And you will probably be too tired to exercise that right. I certainly am.

Kudos to DavidO and MadPoodle and Mattyboy and RustnRot and the unsung many of this board who have taken action. :bighug:

Definite kudos to those who are taking direct action to help in relief, and to those who are "only" donating to the Red Cross or other organizations. I think we all have the right to comment on current events, just as we understand that we are accountable for our opinions.

Maybe foam Connecticut?

olredalert
09-03-2005, 09:07 AM
-------I have just read over mr. ZBoaters posts and find absolutely no earthly reason for reading another of his posts. He is at this moment a non-entity to me..........Bill S

gcarter
09-04-2005, 06:07 PM
You may remember Scott, that GHWB visited the Homestead area after Andrew and caught hell for it. It seems that trip blocked the turnpike and I-95 for miles.
I guess being president is a tough job. No matter what you do, people complain.
I've read a few things today I found interesting.
The Federal Government can't intrude until asked.
Does anyone know when that happened?
The mayor of NO is apparantly suffering paranoia. Yesterday he was mumbling things about the CIA was going to kill him for complaining about the president. Only after he met with the president for two hours did he settle down. Maybe the mayor needs a padded room or some meds.
Then there was the picture I posted earlier showing several hundred school buses parked in several feet of water and the headline;
"WHY DIDN'T YOU DEPLOY THE BUSES DURING THE MANDATORY EVACUATION, MAYOR?..."
Yesterday on the DrudgeReport there was an excerpt from the Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00
'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...

I wonder what happened????
Maybe they couldn't remember they had a plan?

Formula Jr
09-04-2005, 06:35 PM
Sorry to bring up a thirty year old song, but....

If it keeps on rainin’, levee’s goin’ to break,
If it keeps on rainin’, levee’s goin’ to break,
When the levee breaks I’ll have no place to stay.
Mean old levee taught me to weep and moan,
Lord, mean old levee taught me to weep and moan,
Got what it takes to make a mountain man leave his home,
Oh, well, oh, well, oh, well.
Don’t it make you feel bad
When you’re tryin’ to find your way home,
You don’t know which way to go?
If you’re goin’ down south
They go no work to do,
If you don’t know about chicago.
Cryin’ won’t help you, prayin’ won’t do you no good,
Now, cryin’ won’t help you, prayin’ won’t do you no good,
When the levee breaks, mama, you got to move.
All last night sat on the levee and moaned,
All last night sat on the levee and moaned,
Thinkin’ ’bout me baby and my happy home.
Going, go’n’ to chicago,
Go’n’ to chicago,
Sorry but I can’t take you.
Going down, going down now, going down.

gcarter
09-04-2005, 06:49 PM
You just can't help "STUPID", can you?

Darrell
09-04-2005, 07:22 PM
Since when did ever thing become a RED vs Blue issue, quite frankly this is a act of God, and is not Pres. Bush's fault. People seem to form their opion of issues on how it makes their political side look. I dare say that if the other side was in office that most of you would reverse your stand on the progress of the relief effort. It bothers me when people call a mother who has lost a son in a war a crackhead just because she has made a request for some answers, and may have caused people to question the war, just as much as it bothers me when someone prints curse words about the Pres. I would ask all the poeple firing insults at the president to remember that this a massive desaster and there will allways be ways it could have been done better, but I think the our men & women are doing a great job now. That being said I will step off my soapbox and go mow the yard, have a nice evening.


Darrell

Lenny
09-04-2005, 07:35 PM
First time I ever bought diapers was today..

Inconstinence Scott ??? :D

Canada is helping in any way we can. There will be Telco/Pole repair crews from HERE, there, shortly. (upon instruction and it being safe to do so.)

http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pageID=cbc/canada_home&articleID=2021441

http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pageID=cbc/canada_home&articleID=2021869


Earlier, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew to thank Canada for its offers of assistance.

Across the country, offers of aid continued to flow in.


In Halifax, Nova Scotia's Conservative government announced it would donate $100,000 to the Canadian Red Cross.

"All Nova Scotians have been shocked and moved by the terrible destruction and suffering on the Gulf Coast of the United States," Premier John Hamm said in a statement. "The victims have been in our thoughts and prayers all week."

P.E.I. Premier Pat Binns has offered to help co-ordinate an effort to provide shelter and support for the hundreds of thousands of people displaced by Katrina. "Each of us can do a little bit," Binns said in a letter to the U.S. ambassador. "As horrible as the situation is, perhaps we can use it to strengthen our bonds with our U.S. neighbours, which have grown strained over trade and terrorism security measures."

In Edmonton, Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan said people in the Maritimes are offering to take in victims of Katrina.

McLellan said there are offers by Maritimers ready to open their homes to people on the U-S Gulf Coast, who've been left homeless by the storm.

Because of the deep connection of Atlantic Canada's Acadians with the U.S. South, McLellan said many people have offered to shelter children or families who may need somewhere to go.

She said the federal government will convey the offer to U.S. officials, but she said they don't want to add to people's trauma. McLellan said it hasn't even been determined whether such an idea is a practical one, though it shows Canadians' willingness to help out.

Air Canada said Friday it had dispatched an Airbus passenger jet from Toronto to New Orleans with a cargo of bottled water and relief supplies. The airline said it would operate shuttle flights over the next several days to help in the evacuation of about 25,000 people from New Orleans to Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas.

© the CBC, 2005

We are doing whatever we can to help. :)

gcarter
09-04-2005, 07:59 PM
I've read a few things today I found interesting.
The Federal Government can't intrude until asked.
Does anyone know when that happened?

Hmmmmmmm......I just found this;
Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005 12:47 p.m. EDT
Gov. Kathleen Blanco: No State of Emergency

Though her state has been devastated by Hurricane Katrina and thousands are believed dead in New Orleans, Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco has yet to declare a state of emergency and refuses to cede authority over rescue efforts to the federal government.

"Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans," the Washington Post reported in Sunday editions.
Gov. Blanco's office rejected the request, the paper said - concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law.
The Louisiana Democrat has also failed to declare a state of emergency - in marked contrast to Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour and Alabama Gov. Bob Riley, who both issued emergency declarations before Hurricane Katrina struck.
State and federal officials also told the Post that Gov. Blanco did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday - more than 24 hours after breaches in New Orleans levee system had flooded the city and killed thousands.

Kind of hard to blame the president when the facts come out!! :yes:

JPR
09-04-2005, 08:35 PM
I am not commenting here, just presenting some info I found elswhere. This comes from a reportter in California.



-" It has taken four long days for state and federal officials to figure out how to deal with the disaster in New Orleans. I can't blame them, because it has also taken me four long days to figure out what is going on there. The reason is that the events there make no sense if you think that we are confronting a natural disaster.

If this is just a natural disaster, the response for public officials is obvious: you bring in food, water, and doctors; you send transportation to evacuate refugees to temporary shelters; you send engineers to stop the flooding and rebuild the city's infrastructure. For journalists, natural disasters also have a familiar pattern: the heroism of ordinary people pulling together to survive; the hard work and dedication of doctors,nurses, and rescue workers; the steps being taken to clean up and rebuild.

Public officials did not expect that the first thing they would have to do is to send thousands of armed troops in armored vehicles, as if they are suppressing an enemy insurgency. And journalists--myself included--did not expect that the story would not be about rain, wind, and flooding, but about rape, murder, and looting.

But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster.

The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane
Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television channel has gotten the story wrong.

The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not happen over the past four days. It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view.

The man-made disaster is the welfare state.

For the past few days, I have found the news from New Orleans to be confusing. People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave in an
emergency--indeed; they were not behaving as they have behaved in other emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have been saying
that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it is not even whatwe expect from a Third World country.

When confronted with a disaster, people usually rise to the occasion. They work together to rescue people in danger, and they spontaneously organize to keep order and solve problems. This is especially true in America. We are an enterprising people, used to relying on our own initiative rather than waiting around for the government to take care of us. I have seen this a
hundred times, in small examples (a small town whose main traffic light had gone out, causing ordinary citizens to get out of their cars and serve as impromptu traffic cops, directing cars through the intersection) and large ones (the spontaneous response of New Yorkers to September 11).

So what explains the chaos in New Orleans?

To give you an idea of the magnitude of what is going on, here is a description from a Washington
Times story:
"Storm victims are raped and beaten; fights erupt with flying fists, knives and guns; fires are breaking out; corpses litter the streets; and police and rescue helicopters are repeatedly fired on. "The plea from Mayor C. Ray Nagin came even as National Guardsmen poured in to restore order and stop the looting, carjackings and gunfire....

"Last night, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said 300 Iraq-hardened Arkansas National Guard members were inside New Orleans with shoot-to-kill orders.

"'These troops are...under my orders to restore order in the streets,she said. They have M-16s, and they are locked and loaded. These troops know
how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will."

The reference to Iraq is eerie. The photo that accompanies this article shows National Guard troops, with rifles and armored vests, riding on an armored vehicle through trash-strewn streets lined by a rabble of squalid,listless people, one of whom appears to be yelling at them. It looks exactly like a scene from Sadr City in Baghdad.

What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the drivers to drive away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to attack thedoctors trying to treat patients at the Super Dome?

Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them?

My wife, Sherri, figured it out first, and she figured it out on a sense-of-life level. While watching the coverage last night on Fox News
Channel, she told me that she was getting a familiar feeling. She studied architecture at the Illinois Institute of Chicago, which is located in the South Side of Chicago just blocks away from the Robert Taylor Homes, one of the largest high-rise public housing projects in America. "The projects," as they were known, were infamous for uncontrollable crime and irremediable
squalor. (They have since, mercifully, been demolished.)

What Sherri was getting from last night's television coverage was a whiff of the sense of life of "the projects." Then the "crawl"--the informational phrases flashed at the bottom of the screen on most news channels--gave some
vital statistics to confirm this sense: 75% of the residents of New Orleans had already evacuated before the hurricane, and of the 300,000 or so who remained, a large number were from the city's public housing projects. Jack
Wakeland then gave me an additional, crucial fact: early reports from CNN and Fox indicated that the city had no plan for evacuating all of the prisoners in the city's jails--so they just let many of them loose. There is no doubt a significant overlap between these two populations--that is, a large number of people in the jails used to live in the housing projects, and vice versa.

There were many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the deluge hit--but they were trapped alongside large numbers of people from two
groups: criminals--and wards of the welfare state, people selected, over decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness. The welfare wards were a mass of sheep--on whom the incompetent administration of New Orleans unleashed a pack of wolves.

All of this is related, incidentally, to the apparent incompetence of the city government, which failed to plan for a total evacuation of the city,despite the knowledge that this might be necessary. But in a city corrupted by the welfare state, the job of city officials is to ensure the flow of handouts to welfare recipients and patronage to political supporters--not to ensure a lawful, orderly evacuation in case of emergency.

No one has really reported this story, as far as I can tell. In fact, some are already actively distorting it, blaming President Bush, for example, for failing to personally ensure that the Mayor of New Orleans had drafted an adequate evacuation plan. The worst example is an execrable piece from the Toronto Globe and Mail, by a supercilious Canadian who blames the chaos on
American "individualism." But the truth is precisely the opposite: the chaos was caused by a system that was the exact opposite of individualism.

What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. They don't use the chaos of a disaster
as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.

But what about criminals and welfare parasites? Do they worry about saving their houses and property? They don't, because they don't own anything. Do they worry about what is going to happen to their businesses or how they are
going to make a living? They never worried about those things before. Do they worry about crime and looting? But living off of stolen wealth is a way of life for them.

The welfare state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting. Source: TIA Daily -- September 2, 2005 "

gcarter
09-04-2005, 09:07 PM
Boy, that's powerful!!!

BERTRAM BOY
09-04-2005, 09:16 PM
So Cuda, What your problem with Connecticut?

One person makes an ignorant statement, and you think everyone in the state thinks that way. Kinda silly don't ya think?

Cuda
09-04-2005, 09:20 PM
So Cuda, What your problem with Connecticut?

One person makes an ignorant statement, and you think everyone in the state thinks that way. Kinda silly don't ya think?
Yes, you are probably right. Sorry.

Islander
09-05-2005, 12:38 AM
And another..

Disgusting, totally and completely disgusting. If it were up to the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons of the world, the rest of humanity would act in this same way. I will never step foot anywhere near NO so long as it's populated by this type of subhuman species. I would hope that this isn't emblematic of the totality of the people there, but this news sure makes it harder to feel good about being charitable.

gcarter
09-05-2005, 07:21 AM
This was in the New York Post this morning;
LA. MISSTEPS AND D.C. SPATS BOGGED DOWN RESCUE

By DEBORAH ORIN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Email Archives
Print Reprint



September 5, 2005 -- Louisiana and New Orleans officials gravely stumbled before and after Katrina's deadly slam into the Gulf Coast — and a strange paralysis reportedly gripped the White House in the devastation's aftermath.
State and local officials have come under rising criticism for their un-Rudy Giuliani-like response to the crisis. Despite reports of the escalating threat — and a city plan spelling out mandatory evacuation parameters — they did too little too late.

A mandatory evacuation was finally declared on Aug. 28 — with Katrina less than 24 hours away — and only after President Bush had "called and personally appealed" for it, Gov. Kathleen Blanco told The Associated Press.

Bush's top advisers, meanwhile, bickered over the legalities of who was in charge in the wake of the storm, the magazine reports, citing three unnamed White House officials.

Justice Department lawyers argued for federalizing the National Guard, but Pentagon attorneys worried about untrained 19-year-olds trying to enforce local laws, says Newsweek in editions hitting newsstands today.

The Pentagon, under Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, was reluctant to have the military lead disaster relief, traditionally performed by the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the National Guard, which is commanded by governors.

The Washington Post reported yesterday that federal officials were so distressed by disorganization at the local level that they tried to get Blanco to sign an agreement federalizing the rescue mission. She refused.



But Bush could have federalized the Guard without state consent, as his dad, President George H.W. Bush, did after the Los Angeles riots in 1992.


It looks like the president was waiting, and waiting, and waiting for the LA governor to do something, and and he gets all the blame!! :yes:

David O
09-05-2005, 08:17 AM
Spent 6 hours last night in Biloxi at the High School shelter/field hospital.
The Red Cross, FEMA, all the other relief organizations are truly a wonderful group of individuals giving of their hearts living alone side the evac’s, living as the evac’s live but yet living in fear for their lives. Does it stop any of them? Not that I saw. A few may threaten to leave when confronted with a shotgun in the face but yet once calmed down they jump back in and do as needed.
These people are wonderful and I WILL BE BACK TODAY to help them with all I have.
Anything they need they pick up the sat phone call the ships just off shore, if they have it, here it comes if not then it is delivered by escorted vehicles from supply cashes.
It is truly amazing to see all of this in action and to think you have to basically fight your way in to help. I was picked up at the Gulfport Airport and transported in a police vehicle and was returned in the same vehicle, I was briefed on what to do when and if I saw guns drawn (not that I didn’t already have a good clue). I was taken on two occasions to safe rooms to wait out a tense situation.
I DON’T UNDERSTAND
I didn’t see the news of Hurricane Ivan because I was in it but I hope like hell, the news about the Northwest Florida residents was not as we are hearing today.

blackhawk
09-05-2005, 09:08 PM
Poodle, water DID not show up before the 5th day. I watched it live as the trucks rolled in to the dome. And thanks for taking my quotes out of context! :D

I don't blame Bush for what happened, that would be ridiculous. MY point was, once again, Bush does not act like a leader. I refuse to get pulled into a political thread, it's pointless. People by nature are closed minded about this stuff because they think it's admitting they are wrong. If you like Bush then you will stick up for him until the end, no matter what he does.


I believe we have a leader in GWB who doesn't shirk his duty, and isn't led by polls. His goals don't change. They are never the flavor of the day according to the latest polls. I believe at the end of the day, he will be known as a great president, one who didn't change just because his support numbers were going down.

gcarter, it's funny you say that, because I was just saying the exact opposite the other day. I'm sure when all the smoke has cleared he will be remembered as a very poor president. You stated "one who didn't change just because his support numbers were going down". :rolleyes: IMO that is exactly what a good leader should do! HIS people are not approving of how he is running the country! So he should keep doing his job the same? The word is called adapt! See the problems, admit the mistakes and correct the problem. Not be stubborn and keep making mistakes over and over again. Again - adapt! When a company starts losing money does should the president of the company keep doing things the same until the company is bankrupt? Or investigate the problem, make changes in the "gameplan" and try to correct the problem? Hmmm, that's a tough one! :D

I am sure that all the Bush fans will fire something back. And I know that I cannot change anyone's opinions or views. I was just stating my opinion like everyone else. And my opinion on GW is very low. I mean, come on, the guy can't even pronounce nuclear!!! :D

MrsDigger
09-06-2005, 12:15 AM
Poodle, water DID not show up before the 5th day. I watched it live as the trucks rolled in to the dome. And thanks for taking my quotes out of context! :D

I don't blame Bush for what happened, that would be ridiculous. MY point was, once again, Bush does not act like a leader. I refuse to get pulled into a political thread, it's pointless. People by nature are closed minded about this stuff because they think it's admitting they are wrong. If you like Bush then you will stick up for him until the end, no matter what he does. gcarter, it's funny you say that, because I was just saying the exact opposite the other day. I'm sure when all the smoke has cleared he will be remembered as a very poor president. You stated "one who didn't change just because his support numbers were going down". :rolleyes: IMO that is exactly what a good leader should do! HIS people are not approving of how he is running the country! So he should keep doing his job the same? The word is called adapt! See the problems, admit the mistakes and correct the problem. Not be stubborn and keep making mistakes over and over again. Again - adapt! When a company starts losing money does should the president of the company keep doing things the same until the company is bankrupt? Or investigate the problem, make changes in the "gameplan" and try to correct the problem? Hmmm, that's a tough one! :D

I am sure that all the Bush fans will fire something back. And I know that I cannot change anyone's opinions or views. I was just stating my opinion like everyone else. And my opinion on GW is very low. I mean, come on, the guy can't even pronounce nuclear!!! :D

Well, here I am again...

When the smoke clears, and whether or not that smoke comes from the crack pipe (users of which are enabled by the liberal entitlement mentality and the welfare state) or the forest fire (caused by years of liberal environmental policies that forbid harvesting diseased timber and deadfalls from national forestlands) or from arson fires in New Orleans (set by criminals--nay, animals--whom the liberals excuse for raping, pillaging, murder and mayhem, because they are "impoverished" and downtrodden by a capitalist society), this president will be remembered as one who did a few things that are unheard of in 20th and 21st century politics.

One, he DID WHAT HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO DO.

Two, HE STOOD UP FOR AMERICA, AS A NATION, he stood up for her MILITARY, AND HE STOOD UP FOR HER CITIZENS (even the liberals).

Three, he placed more value on ACTUAL, REAL, VIABLE FREEDOM--freedom from oppression, freedom from poverty, freedom from tyranny--than on the paltry and pitiful examples of--and yet loudly proclaimed, espoused by, and often worn as armour by--the liberal press and the ACLU--of speech, press, assembly, and religion--freedoms that the vocal left, their Hollywood representatives, the press, and the left's elected representatives think should only apply TO their compatriots (komrades?) on the liberal left.

By the way, in my opinion, the founders of this great nation (and YES, it IS GREAT), when they referred to "freedom of religion", meant "the freedom to worship as one sees fit," not the freedom FROM religion that the liberal and ungodly minority wish to force upon the worshipping majority.

Four, Bush will be remembered as a president of strong moral character, integrity and honesty; a man who acted in a moral and correct manner in the face of visceral and spiteful attacks from a hate-filled, angry, opposing party that chooses to blame him, personally, for everything from acts of God and natural disaster to foreign perfidy and subversion, not to mention attack, to security failures and policies perpetrated by his predecessors from time immemorial, to the combat deaths of sons and daughters of our countrymen and neighbors--sons and daughters and husbands and wives and fathers who CHOOSE to fight, and perhaps die, in defense of this great nation.

George W. Bush will be remembered as a man who stood firmly in support of this country and her military, even when faced with the Fonda-esque liberal perfidy and activist protest of the morally corrupt, and he does so in a way that his predecessors, most notably Johnson and Nixon, did not have the courage or the fortitude to do.

It is obvious that some among us cannot or will not recognize character, integrity, fortitude, moral courage, and leadership behavior, because they have been raised in an era of moral relativity, courtesy of Mr. Clinton. The majority of their role models came from MTV and the morally bankrupt world that professional sports have become. They have been taught that a glib tongue and an obstinate mind will protect them from accountability. They have come to believe that nothing in this world is right or wrong by its very nature. They will learn that it does not take a village to raise a child. It takes good parenting skills, the understanding that there IS a higher value than self, a good education, and a clear understanding that for every choice, there is a consequence, and that the nature of one's choices bring about the appropriate consequences.

Perhaps a little homework is in order here, blackhawk. The federal government CANNOT step in unless asked. One of the protections afforded by our constitution is such that our (federal) military cannot take action within our borders unless requested by an individual state.

Finally, if you are so focused on the President's pronunciation of "nuclear", perhaps more homework is in order..."The pronunciation (nhttp://www.bartleby.com/images/pronunciation/oomacr.gif´kyhttp://www.bartleby.com/images/pronunciation/schwa.gif-lhttp://www.bartleby.com/images/pronunciation/schwa.gifr), which is strongly objected to by many usage writers and others of their ilk, is an example of how a familiar phonological pattern can influence an unfamiliar one. The usual pronunciation of the final two syllables of this word is (-klhttp://www.bartleby.com/images/pronunciation/emacr.gif-http://www.bartleby.com/images/pronunciation/schwa.gifr), but this sequence of sounds is rare in English. Much more common is the similar sequence (-kyhttp://www.bartleby.com/images/pronunciation/schwa.gif-lhttp://www.bartleby.com/images/pronunciation/schwa.gifr), which occurs in words like particular, circular, spectacular, and in many scientific words like molecular, ocular, and vascular. You may want to avoid this pronunciation despite the fact that it has been used in the recent past by some prominent speakers including Presidents Eisenhower and Carter. Note that the stigmatized variant can also occur in the word nucleus." www.bartleby.com (http://www.bartleby.com/)

gcarter
09-06-2005, 06:26 AM
Here's some more input to those who are so quick to blame the Federal Government;
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05249/566101.stm
Mainly it says FEMA is NOT a first responder, and that it all has to start at the local level.

Forrest
09-06-2005, 03:49 PM
Here is an interesting read that was sent to me recently. I'm sure that it will irritate some, but it's interesting nonetheless, and who knows, someone may want to say a few words about it.



Why New Orleans is in deep water

Molly Ivins, Creators Syndicate

Published September 1, 2005


AUSTIN, Texas -- Like many of you who love New Orleans, I find myself taking short mental walks there today, turning a familiar corner, glimpsing a favorite scene, square or vista. And worrying about the beloved friends and the city, and how they are now.

To use a fine Southern word, it's tacky to start playing the blame game before the dead are even counted. It is not too soon, however, to make a point that needs to be hammered home again and again, and that is that government policies have real consequences in people's lives.

This is not "just politics" or blaming for political advantage. This is about the real consequences of what governments do and do not do about their responsibilities. And about who winds up paying the price for those policies.

This is a column for everyone in the path of Hurricane Katrina who ever said, "I'm sorry, I'm just not interested in politics," or, "There's nothing I can do about it," or, "Eh, they're all crooks anyway."

Nothing to do with me, nothing to do with my life, nothing I an do about any of it. Look around you this morning. I suppose the National Rile Association would argue, "Government policies don't kill people, hurricanes kill people." Actually, hurricanes plus government policies kill people.

One of the main reasons New Orleans is so vulnerable to hurricanes is the gradual disappearance of the wetlands on the Gulf Coast that once stood as a natural buffer between the city and storms coming in from the water. The disappearance of those wetlands does not have the name of a political party or a particular administration attached to it. No one wants to play, "The Democrats did it," or, "It's all Reagan's fault." Many environmentalists will tell you more than a century's interference with the natural flow of the Mississippi is the root cause of the problem, cutting off the movement of alluvial soil to the river's delta.

But in addition to long-range consequences of long-term policies like letting the Corps of Engineers try to build a better river than God, there are real short-term consequences, as well. It is a fact that the Clinton administration set some tough policies on wetlands, and it is a fact that the Bush administration repealed those policies--ordering federal agencies to stop protecting as many as 20 million acres of wetlands.

Last year, four environmental groups cooperated on a joint report showing the Bush administration's policies had allowed developers to drain thousands of acres of wetlands.

Does this mean we should blame President Bush for the fact that New Orleans is underwater? No, but it means we can blame Bush when a Category 3 or Category 2 hurricane puts New Orleans under. At this point, it is a matter of making a bad situation worse, of failing to observe the First Rule of Holes (when you're in one, stop digging).

Had a storm the size of Katrina just had the grace to hold off for a while, it's quite likely no one would even remember what the Bush administration did two months ago. The national press corps has the attention span of a gnat, and trying to get anyone in Washington to remember longer than a year ago is like asking them what happened in Iznik, Turkey, in A.D. 325.

Just plain political bad luck that, in June, Bush took his little ax and chopped $71.2 million from the budget of the New Orleans Corps of Engineers, a 44 percent reduction. As was reported in New Orleans City Business at the time, that meant "major hurricane and flood projects will not be awarded to local engineering firms. Also, a study to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane has been shelved for now."

The commander of the corps' New Orleans district also immediately instituted a hiring freeze and canceled the annual corps picnic.

Our friends at the Center for American Progress note the Office of
Technology Assessment used to produce forward-thinking plans such as
"Floods: A National Policy Concern" and "A Framework for Flood Hazards Management." Unfortunately, the office was targeted by Newt Gingrich and the Republican right, and gutted years ago.

In fact, there is now a government wide movement away from basing
policy on science, expertise and professionalism, and in favor of choices
based on ideology. If you're wondering what the ideological position on flood management might be, look at the pictures of New Orleans--it seems to consist of gutting the programs that do anything.

Unfortunately, the war in Iraq is directly related to the devastation left by the hurricane. About 35 percent of Louisiana's National Guard is now serving in Iraq, where four out of every 10 soldiers are guardsmen.

Recruiting for the Guard is also down significantly because people are afraid of being sent to Iraq if they join, leaving the Guard even more short-handed.

The Louisiana National Guard also notes that dozens of its high-water vehicles, Humvees, refuelers and generators have also been sent abroad. (I hate to be picky, but why do they need high-water vehicles
in Iraq?)

This, in turn, goes back to the original policy decision to go into Iraq without enough soldiers and the subsequent failure to admit that mistake and to rectify it by instituting a draft.

The levees of New Orleans, two of which are now broken and flooding
the city, were also victims of Iraq war spending. Walter Maestri,
emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, said on June 8, 2004,
"It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq."

This, friends, is why we need to pay attention to government policies, not political personalities, and to know whereon we vote. It is about our lives.

gcarter
09-06-2005, 08:12 PM
Molly Ivens is a very clever, very bright, and also sometimes very funny (Texans don't use "WINTER" as a verb), and very left wing journalist from Austin, probably the most left wing city in Texas. She has had a personal vendetta against the Bush family for decades. She's written books, made speeches, and probably written 300 columns about the family.
Even if every word were true, it wouldn't have changed anything. That whole coastal region has been subsiding for hundreds of years. The Corps has been re-engineering the river ever since technology has been around to do so. If the local government had wanted to stop development in the greater NO area, they could have. But most local governments want the revenue.
There's no simple answer here, other than to remove people and turn it into a museum, to be used once a year to have parades in. :yes: :biggrin:

Bad-Tat
09-06-2005, 08:38 PM
Some food to add to Ms Diggers note about Fed response.

Subject: Politics over duty
>
This is a post from a fellow over in Merritt Is, FL, a reporter who's been
researching what went on before the storm hit
I think all of Nagin's pomp and posturing is going to bite him hard in the
> near future as the lies and distortions of his interviews are coming to
> light.

On Friday night before the storm hit Max Mayfield of the National
Hurricane Center took the unprecedented action of calling Nagin and Blanco
personally to plead with them to begin MANDATORY evacuation of NO and they said
they'd > take it under consideration. This was after the NOAA buoy 240 miles south
> had recorded 68' waves before it was destroyed.
> President Bush spent Friday afternoon and evening in meetings with his
> advisors and administrators drafting all of the paperwork required for a
> state to request federal assistance (and not be in violation of the Posse
> Comitatus Act or having to enact the Insurgency Act). Just before midnight
> Friday evening the President called Governor Blanco and pleaded with her
to sign the request papers so the federal government and the military could
> legally begin mobilization and call up. He was told that they didn't think
> it necessary for the federal government to be involved yet. After the
> President's final call to the governor she held meetings with her staff to
> discuss the political ramifications of bringing federal forces. It was
> decided that if they allowed federal assistance it would make it look as
if they had failed so it was agreed upon that the feds would not be invited
in.
>
> Saturday before the storm hit the President again called Blanco and Nagin
> requesting they please sign the papers requesting federal assistance, that
> they declare the state an emergency area, and begin mandatory evacuation.
> After a personal plea from the President Nagin agreed to order an
> evacuation, but it would not be a full mandatory evacuation, and the
> governor still refused to sign the papers requesting and authorizing
federal action. In frustration the President declared the area a national disaster
> area before the state of Louisiana did so he could legally begin some
> advanced preparations. Rumor has it that the President's legal advisers
were looking into the ramifications of using the insurgency act to bypass the
> Constitutional requirement that a state request federal aid before the
> federal government can move into state with troops - but that had not been
> done since 1906 and the Constitutionality of it was called into question
to use before the disaster.
>
> Throw in that over half the federal aid of the past decade to NO for levee
> construction, maintenance, and repair was diverted to fund a marina and
> support the gambling ships. Toss in the investigation that will look into
> why the emergency preparedness plan submitted to the federal government
for funding and published on the city's website was never implemented and in
> fact may have been bogus for the purpose of gaining additional federal
> funding as we now learn that the organizations identified in the plan were
> never contacted or coordinating into any planning - though the document
> implies that they were.
>
> The suffering people of NO need to be asking some hard questions as do we
> all, but they better start with why Blanco refused to even sign the
> multi-state mutual aid pack activation documents until Wednesday which
> further delayed the legal deployment of National Guard from adjoining
> states. Or maybe ask why Nagin keeps harping that the President should
have commandeered 500 Greyhound busses to help him when according to his own
> emergency plan and documents he claimed to have over 500 busses at his
> disposal to use between the local school busses and the city
transportation busses - but he never raised a finger to prepare them or activate them.

> This is a sad time for all of us to see that a major city has all but been
> destroyed and thousands of people have died with hundreds of thousands
more suffering, but it's certainly not a time for people to be pointing fingers
> and trying to find a bigger dog to blame for local corruption and
> incompetence. Pray to God for the survivors that they can start their
lives anew as fast as possible and we learn from all the mistakes to avoid them
in the future.

smokediver
09-06-2005, 08:46 PM
Funny how blame gets placed ... sad too ... Responsibility starts at home and moves up from there ... In my mind , the people in NO should have been evacuated long before the levees broke ... There shouldn't be thousands dead ... Maybe if the Mayor there had evacuated the sick , lame , and lazy out of there in school buses , which are now under water , there wouldn't be this tradgedy . It is a shame that anything out of the ordinary is the responsibility of the federal govt. To provide support and funding to a local effort , absolutley ... The bashing of President Bush at the expense of thousands dead makes me sick . To think that if No were predominatley white that the reponse would have been quicker ? Those people are the racists . Jesse needs the publicity to get donations for his rainbow coalition . Don't forget , it pays for all his child support ... right ? Look at the motivation behind these people ... They hope for tradgedy as it gives them a platform to speak ... They feel nothing for the injured , only glad they have a chance to be self serving .
I met President Bush , he shook my hand and thanked me for the job I do . He noticed that I had a small Eagle,Globe , and Anchor pinned on my uniform and asked where I got it . I told them they were free , all you had to do was go to Parris Island to get one .. He laughed and kidded around with us . He was at a 1000 dollar a plate lunch but spent more time out with us guys than making a speech . It was an election year and the stupid IAFF had endorsed Kerry . That meant nothing to him ... He went out of his way to thank each and every one of us for our service to the community . There were no cameras around , no reporters .. Just him and the secret service ... We all thanked him for keeping us safe here at home ... I swore he whelled up in tears .... He cares about people and he loves America ... I like the fact he doesn't pronounce everything perfectly and stumbles over words . I would too talking to millions of people ...
It is our right to speak our minds , unfortunately , many show there ignorance in doing so ... In my book , the Mayor of NO should be fired and be held criminally liable in failing his citizens ... Too bad Rudy wasn't there ...

Islander
09-07-2005, 07:20 AM
Forty five years ago my family emigrated to the US from a country where the state became the sole provider, at the great expense of personal freedoms. So perhaps, it makes me acutely aware of the great fortune that Americans are the beneficiaries of. It also makes me think that many Americans take this freedom for granted.

There is no country in the world that I can think of that has the same degree of freedom as the US, and the main reason for this is the lack of a central government looking over our shoulders at everything we do; and in essence telling us what to do. Would any of us opt for a European-style formula, where a huge slice of the population benefits from welfare, for years at a time, at the expense of the rest of the working class? Do we want a federal government that mandates local laws and regulates local affairs? Are we so slack that we want a daddy state to hold us by the hand everytime we sneeze? The answer seems obvious to me.

The flip side to all this freedom is personal responsibility, the key element missing in New Orleans, and it's been missing for years. Until people are taught to take care of themselves, their families and their neighbors, they will keep looking at the government to solve all their problems, and this country, thank God, won't do that. At least it hasn't been voted in yet.

The welfare mentality brings little personal advancement and promotes the do-nothing attitude that we've seen prevalent in this disaster, starting with the people who chose to stay to the governor and mayor who chose to abandon their sworn responsibilities to their citizens.

Cuda
09-07-2005, 07:40 AM
Nice perspective Islander. Well said.

Marlin275
09-07-2005, 10:46 PM
NO City and State are the Problem

The Red Cross Blocked
The Fox News Channel's Major Garrett was just on my show extending the story he had just reported on Brit Hume's show: The Red Cross is confirming to Garrett that it had prepositioned water, food, blankets and hygiene products for delivery to the Superdome and the Convention Center in the immediate aftermath of the hurricane, but were blocked from delivering those supplies by orders of the Louisiana state government, which did not want to attract people to the Superdome and/or Convention Center. Garrett has no paper trail yet, but will follow up on his verbal confirmation from sources at the highest levels of the Red Cross.
http://hughhewitt.com/archives/2005/09/04-week/index.php#a000211

Blame Amid the Tragedy
Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin failed their constituents.

The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his emergency operations center.

The actions and inactions of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin are a national disgrace due to their failure to implement the previously established evacuation plans of the state and city. Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved.

In addition to the plans, local, state and federal officials held a simulated hurricane drill 13 months ago, in which widespread flooding supposedly trapped 300,000 people inside New Orleans. The exercise simulated the evacuation of more than a million residents. The problems identified in the simulation apparently were not solved.

A year ago, as Hurricane Ivan approached, New Orleans ordered an evacuation but did not use city or school buses to help people evacuate. As a result many of the poorest citizens were unable to evacuate. Fortunately, the hurricane changed course and did not hit New Orleans, but both Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin acknowledged the need for a better evacuation plan. Again, they did not take corrective actions. In 1998, during a threat by Hurricane George, 14,000 people were sent to the Superdome and theft and vandalism were rampant due to inadequate security. Again, these problems were not corrected.
The New Orleans contingency plan is still, as of this writing, on the city's Web site, and states: "The safe evacuation of threatened populations is one of the principle [sic] reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But the plan was apparently ignored.

Mayor Nagin was responsible for giving the order for mandatory evacuation and supervising the actual evacuation: His Office of Emergency Preparedness (not the federal government) must coordinate with the state on elements of evacuation and assist in directing the transportation of evacuees to staging areas. Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation.

The city's evacuation plan states: "The city of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas." But even though the city has enough school and transit buses to evacuate 12,000 citizens per fleet run, the mayor did not use them. To compound the problem, the buses were not moved to high ground and were flooded. The plan also states that "special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific lifesaving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed." This was not done.

The evacuation plan warned that "if an evacuation order is issued without the mechanisms needed to disseminate the information to the affected persons, then we face the possibility of having large numbers of people either stranded and left to the mercy of a storm, or left in an area impacted by toxic materials." That is precisely what happened because of the mayor's failure.

Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed, in these facilities. Mayor Nagin failed in his responsibility to provide public safety and to manage the orderly evacuation of the citizens of New Orleans. Now he wants to blame Gov. Blanco and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In an emergency the first requirement is for the city's emergency center to be linked to the state emergency operations center. This was not done.

The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.
In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people. The plan clearly gives the governor the authority for declaring an emergency, sending in state resources to the disaster area and requesting necessary federal assistance.

State legislators and governors nationwide need to update their contingency plans and the operation procedures for state emergency centers. Hurricane Katrina had been forecast for days, but that will not always be the case with a disaster (think of terrorist attacks). It must be made clear that the governor and locally elected officials are in charge of the "first response."

I am not attempting to excuse some of the delays in FEMA's response. Congress and the president need to take corrective action there, also. However, if citizens expect FEMA to be a first responder to terrorist attacks or other local emergencies (earthquakes, forest fires, volcanoes), they will be disappointed. The federal government's role is to offer aid upon request.

The Louisiana Legislature should conduct an immediate investigation into the failures of state and local officials to implement the written emergency plans. The tragedy is not over, and real leadership in the state and local government are essential in the months to come. More importantly, the hurricane season is still upon us, and local and state officials must stay focused on the jobs for which they were elected--and not on the deadly game of passing the emergency buck.

Mr. Williams is president of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, a free market public policy research organization in Olympia, Wash.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219

sgh10
09-09-2005, 02:12 AM
Whatever became of personal responsibility...one of the qualities that made America great in the first place??? And since when did the President, any president, and the government become our mommy and daddy? I live in a potential earthquake and volcano disaster area, and although it is unlikely that we will experience a disaster, it is not impossible. Therefore, we are prepared. Our education system and local leadership is failing us all across this great nation by not teaching self-reliance. Pretty hard to help a neighbor in a sinking boat when our own boat is taking on water. :yes:

Formula Jr
09-09-2005, 04:24 AM
Hi Sgh10! Welcome to the donzi board!

Whether you live in Tac Town or Sea Town, you gotta know
we are are all waiting for the big one! I'm moving there, fully aware
of the potentials.

harbormaster
09-09-2005, 07:54 AM
A few things that stick in my craw.
(don't ask what a craw is because I have no idea.)

1). Is the state and local government responsible for anything in Louisiana?
What are they doing with all their income from gambling income? Seems like they would have enough pride in their city to not rely soley on federal aid to fix/improve their levee system. They bash the Republicans, when Louisiana is predominately a blue (democrat) state. I am surprised that they have not accused the snipers shooting at the relief workers of being republicans.

2). How about that Black political caucus! There's an organization that fosters truth and understanding! . They and others (Howard Dean) have played on ignorance by using the race card repeatedly. If they cared so much for their black brothers and sisters, why weren't they in New Orleans way before any natural disaster, trying to help raise these poor folks up from the utter squalor they are being forced to live in by the all those "whites that hate blacks". Does the Black New Orleans mayor do anything besides whine and talk to the press?? Its amazing how some organizations who were formed to prevent descrimination help prolong it. There are people in these organzia

3). How about that New York Times! For my friends in New York City, I feel sorry for you having such a rag for a city Newspaper.
Posting the editorial about how Houston is profiting from this disaster was ludicrous. The city of Houston has cancelled all major conventions for the few months because both our convention centers are being used for shelters and relief efforts. Yeah thats profitable.
The cruise lines in our area have cancelled all cruises because the ships have been leased to use as shelters. Another loss of income from the area.

Of the many displaced unforunates here in Houston that stay here permanently,many will end up being on Houston's welfare roles These people are dirt poor,folks. We already have our own low income citizens. This had made things even harder on them.

Crime (rapes/assault/robberies) has increased in and around the shelter areas.

Houston and its citizens are doing this because it could have easily been us hit by that storm. Not because of race, profit or political party.

So There. I feel so much better.

DonziJon
09-09-2005, 07:11 PM
A few things that stick in my craw.
(don't ask what a craw is because I have no idea.)

1). Is the state and local government responsible for anything in Louisiana?
What are they doing with all their income from gambling income? Seems like they would have enough pride in their city to not rely soley on federal aid to fix/improve their levee system. They bash the Republicans, when Louisiana is predominately a blue (democrat) state. I am surprised that they have not accused the snipers shooting at the relief workers of being republicans.

2). How about that Black political caucus! There's an organization that fosters truth and understanding! . They and others (Howard Dean) have played on ignorance by using the race card repeatedly. If they cared so much for their black brothers and sisters, why weren't they in New Orleans way before any natural disaster, trying to help raise these poor folks up from the utter squalor they are being forced to live in by the all those "whites that hate blacks". Does the Black New Orleans mayor do anything besides whine and talk to the press?? Its amazing how some organizations who were formed to prevent descrimination help prolong it. There are people in these organzia

3). How about that New York Times! For my friends in New York City, I feel sorry for you having such a rag for a city Newspaper.
Posting the editorial about how Houston is profiting from this disaster was ludicrous. The city of Houston has cancelled all major conventions for the few months because both our convention centers are being used for shelters and relief efforts. Yeah thats profitable.
The cruise lines in our area have cancelled all cruises because the ships have been leased to use as shelters. Another loss of income from the area.

Of the many displaced unforunates here in Houston that stay here permanently,many will end up being on Houston's welfare roles These people are dirt poor,folks. We already have our own low income citizens. This had made things even harder on them.

Crime (rapes/assault/robberies) has increased in and around the shelter areas.

Houston and its citizens are doing this because it could have easily been us hit by that storm. Not because of race, profit or political party.

So There. I feel so much better.

This response is NOT in response to any particular post in this thread. I'm just curious about something that has NOT been covered in the Media. All the usual suspects have "showed up" ON camera at the scene of the crime to "Weigh In" with their opinions.

Let's just take Katy Correct, (OH wait, I think I mispelled that) of the Today Show. She was down there for maybe three days and looking a little Off her usual ..."Perfect Look"...Wardrobe, Makeup, etc. I would like to see the MOTOR HOME that NBC provided her for that trip. OH, the Inhumanities. I would like to see the Motor Homes that ALL the NBC, ABC, etc "Journalists" were provided while covering this story.

You people just don't understand the sacrifice these "Journalists" have endured to cover this story.:confused:

rustnrot
09-09-2005, 08:08 PM
I only wish we were talking about the praise Don Aronow no doubt said of our own "Brownie" here on the Donzi board!

Now with the former Dubya roomate (aka Arabian Horse Dude) out of the way --- to go back to the Mother Ship so he can look at the Big Picture and get ready For More Storms On The Way -- I guess I can breathe a sigh of relief......like Barbara Bush said “they were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them.”

I guess I need to go downtown tomorrow and break open our levees here in Augusta, GA so the next time we have tons of rain, downtown will flood and we can then utilize our underutilized Civic Center......and everything will be For The Better!