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Kirk
08-26-2005, 06:20 PM
Ok....

Need some help here!

To set the stage...I put the boat in the water last weekend to run with Matty & Cliff. The boat started fine but noticed the the bilge pump was running. No water was present in the bilge.

Shut the boat down...

Than pulled the fuse for the bildge pump and tried to start...click...click

So, I pulled the boat out and went out in Matty's boat to enjoy some lunch on Haddam Island.

I tried to start the boat today...Dead!

So I hooked up the charger and let it do its thing for 2 hours, no dice...click..click.

The starter has been fine and not given a hint of a problem...it was just rebuilt 20 hours ago (hi torque) The bilge switch appears to be fine and in good working order.

Checked all connections twice! I am leaning to the battery it's three years old but wanted to hear what else I could check that I have not before I spend the big $$$$ on a gel battery?

Thanks,

KJ

gcarter
08-26-2005, 06:28 PM
Have you checked the electrolite with a hydrometer?

onesubdrvr
08-26-2005, 06:31 PM
Ok....

Need some help here!

To set the stage...I put the boat in the water last weekend to run with Matty & Cliff. The boat started fine but noticed the the bilge pump was running. No water was present in the bilge.

Shut the boat down...

Than pulled the fuse for the bildge pump and tried to start...click...click

So, I pulled the boat out and went out in Matty's boat to enjoy some lunch on Haddam Island.

I tried to start the boat today...Dead!

So I hooked up the charger and let it do its thing for 2 hours, no dice...click..click.

The starter has been fine and not given a hint of a problem...it was just rebuilt 20 hours ago (hi torque)

Checked all connections twice! I am leaning to the battery it's three years old but wanted to hear what else I could check that I have not before I spend the big $$$$ on a gel battery?

Thanks,

KJ
I would agree with the battery (assuming all connections are tight), I can't seem to get one to last more than 1 year!! Of course, I haven't been able to run mine much, but when I'm able to start and run it once a week it seems to act fine.

Of course, I'd like to hear other things to check too!!

Wayne

need for speed
08-26-2005, 06:34 PM
yeah.. got 10 months out of my last one.. FL is not the kindest on them... :smash:

MOP
08-26-2005, 06:47 PM
Before you go tearing the starter out check a few things! Do you have an assist solenoid? If so they seem to go fairly often, if you are not sure follow the plus lead from the battery see if it goes to a solenoid before it continues on to the starter. If you have a good set of jumper cables you can try going direct from the battery to the starter, If it turns over good that way the problem is else where. Also check the main and harness grounds not for just tight but "clean and tight" I have seen them damn tight and not pass enough current to get the engine started.

Phil

Formula Jr
08-26-2005, 07:29 PM
If your charger is one of those little 4/6 amp thingies, two hours on charge isn't going to do much. Think 8 to 10 hours. Everything you've said so far says, "battery, battery, battery."
Once you do get her started again, just check the cross terminal voltage while running. It should be 14.7 VDC or so. Alernator check. And even then, if the next day she will not crank briskly, the first place to look is always, "battery, battery, battery."

What you describe is an internal short in the bat,
Cranks, then clicky click, then dead with no obvious drain.

mattyboy
08-26-2005, 08:31 PM
I have had my boat 5 seasons and am On my 3rd battery, this would have been my 3rd season with the marine gold 24 die hard I charge it then it would just go dead in a day or 2 then went to sears for a warantee replacement but i need the original sales receipt, I paid with my sears card and ask to have them check their records cause I paid for the lifetime warantee what the salesman said would only cost 30 bucks and when the battery died just come in a get a new one
, so no go, so I will not buy ungotz ongool at sears anymore
Like we talked about make sure the bilge pump float switch is not wired directly to the battery, eliminate the dash switch and try a new battery
get that puppy running for lk george

:)

joseph m. hahnl
08-26-2005, 08:53 PM
connection is dirty . like mop said doesnt mater how tight. if they don't have good contact they wont turn the starter. solenoids burn up if they get over amped from a dead battery.low volt high amp hot wire melted stuff.
if you have good clean contacts and it still wont turn the starter. use a volt meter at the starter where the battery lead connects. this will be live when the key is on.the solonoid energizes when you turn the key to start mode and makes a contact from that battery wire to the starter winding. "old school" is if it doesn't turn over with the solonoid .jump the contacts with a screw driver.
if the starter fails to engage or turn over or is slow turning "bad starter "(provided you check for enough voltage with the volt meter) turns over with screw driver jump good"bad solonoid or solonoid conection"

joe

PS a bad connection will mimic a dead battery.

Donzigo
08-27-2005, 01:08 AM
IMHO...............battery, for sure.

I buy a set every summer, needed or not, just makes life easy.

Kirk
08-27-2005, 09:07 AM
Just started to trickle charge and will let it do it's thing for 10 hours or so.

As mentioned the starter solenoid and starter where rebuilt just 20 hours ago. Can a soleniod go bad after that few hours?

I'll keep you all posted....

KJ

anyone here from Poodle...I dropped him a PM last night and have not heard from him.

Donzigo
08-27-2005, 11:46 AM
Kirk,

A trickle charger won't do it. I have a floor model rolling Sears battery charger, I think I paid $69 or so, for it. It has the 2, 40 & 20 start only mode.
The way it works is that if the battery is totally dead, and it is a 500 amp battery, and you put the charger on 40 amps. It will charge the battery at 40amps per hour, or would need 8 hours to charge a so-called completely dead battery. A trickle charger is only to maintain the already charged battery, say on a boat or motorcycle that you don't use much and there might be a slight drain on the battery from storage.

You might want to take it to someone who has a larger capacity charger to take care of the problem.

DO NOT put it on 200 amps. You will fry the battery. 200 amps is ONLY for the purpose of starting a vehicle and only for a few seconds. I don't use that part of the charger, if possible.

Others might have better advise than me. Just trying to help.

Kirk
08-27-2005, 12:52 PM
the battery tested good...

I double checked all the connections cleaned the contacts to the battery. The starter does not engage period. I am now leaning towards a bad solenoid. So should I pull the starter and replace the soleniod?

I have a good charger the does both trickle and full. This is driving me crazy, it is a great day for boating by the way.

Mary is not to happy with me...I should be mowing the lawn.

Thanks,

KJ

Formula Jr
08-28-2005, 01:35 AM
Did you throw in a Known Good Battery and try it?

I've been guilty of getting into superstious behaviour over Starters.
Last year my van was doing what you describe. Oddly it turned out to be a combination of a weak bat And a dirty contact in the key ignition switch.
It was VERY frustrating also since it was two things acting in a way that gave me different combinations of testing and failure.

My cure was that I started spinning the key VERY fast, which was cleaning the contacts and it would start most ever time. But the battery was also failing, and wouldn't hold a charge for more than five or six days.
So it was a combo of a weak battery sometimes, and the ignition switch not sending enough voltage to the solenoid to throw it completely out and make the next contact close directly with the battery for the Starter to run.

You have two circuits involved. I'm just going to re-state in a different way what has been said before here. One is a low amp/low load circuit that is closed by your ignition switch. That circuit throws out the pinion gear into the starter ring. But doesn't run the starter. That is another switch in the solenoid that is a high amp/high load curcuit that is closed once the pinion gear is tossed out and engaged with the ring on your flywheel. That is a direct connection throught the Plus terminal of the bat to starter motor to the engine ground back to the neg terminal of the bat. This creates the big magnetic field that spins the starter motor.

mattyboy
08-28-2005, 07:50 AM
Kirk, let me add this tidbit,

I had loose connections on my solenoid and engine was clickety, rurrr and no
start while trying to turn her over whisp of smoke came from the solenoid on my ford right at the back of the motor, I was told they do that if they have bad connections
now to my point isn't the solenoid down by the starter on a chevy and might be source of the smoke??
I would start a process of elimination
First to keep Mary happy have zak mow the lawn
second take the battery out of the family car and try with it ( if it has the same type terminals , I have top post to wing nut adaptors for that reason)
3rd check all connections and clean em
if that doesn't do it then you know it's in the starter /solenoid
good luck keep us posted

boatnut
08-28-2005, 10:10 AM
If you have a really good set of jumper cables (anything other than large gauge good quality cables will be a waste of time), you can jumper in another battery without going through the back breaking exercise of mounting one in the boat. Just a thought. Ed

Kirk
08-28-2005, 12:32 PM
Well after checking things over this morning...for the 99th time. I am convinced that the starter/solenoid is bad so I am going to pull it and take the POS back to the guy that rebuilt it and see what happens.

After 20 hours TOTAL I would not have thought that the starter would be bad.

Matty...the battery tested good...put a load tester on it and came back good. I am with ya on the white smoke thing. I thought it was the bildge pump that was running but now think is was the solenoid that was smoking.

I wish Zak could mow the lawn...the machine is too big for him. It is a 1959 Locke Triplex reel mower with a 90' cut and weighs over 500lbs.

See you guys @ LG with luck!!

Pearson better bring the Hornet....I have to check it out

KJ

joseph m. hahnl
08-28-2005, 01:10 PM
Did you throw in a Known Good Battery and try it?

I've been guilty of getting into superstious behaviour over Starters.
Last year my van was doing what you describe. Oddly it turned out to be a combination of a weak bat And a dirty contact in the key ignition switch.
It was VERY frustrating also since it was two things acting in a way that gave me different combinations of testing and failure.

My cure was that I started spinning the key VERY fast, which was cleaning the contacts and it would start most ever time. But the battery was also failing, and wouldn't hold a charge for more than five or six days.
So it was a combo of a weak battery sometimes, and the ignition switch not sending enough voltage to the solenoid to throw it completely out and make the next contact close directly with the battery for the Starter to run.

You have two circuits involved. I'm just going to re-state in a different way what has been said before here. One is a low amp/low load circuit that is closed by your ignition switch. That circuit throws out the pinion gear into the starter ring. But doesn't run the starter. That is another switch in the solenoid that is a high amp/high load curcuit that is closed once the pinion gear is tossed out and engaged with the ring on your flywheel. That is a direct connection throught the Plus terminal of the bat to starter motor to the engine ground back to the neg terminal of the bat. This creates the big magnetic field that spins the starter motor.



jr: your half right or half wrong which ever you choose. that is a great analisis but the solonoid only preforms one function."it is a contact switch" it does not operate any part of the starter. it is only creates a contact for the starter to battery "closes the circuit"


kirk if the starter is cliking. then the solonoid is working. as i said before jump the solonoid with a screw driver. if the starter doesn't turn .the starter has debree between the armature and the windings rust or graphiteor just bad brushes. in other words it has lost it air gap between armature and winding which grounds the starter and does not allow the the field current.


jr made that valid point about the key switch .

there are two post inside the solonoid there is a little disc with a spring that strikes the post to close the circuit if there is pitting and or does not strike
the post evenly it will not close the circuit and the starter will not engage.


"jump the starter solonoid with a screw driver to eliminate the starter as the cause of the problem.

joe