Another Prop Question

[Ted Guldemond]

I'm looking for advice re: propeller choices. The boat is a 19 ft. St. Tropez [2800lbs] with a 383 sbc with vortec heads and a mild roller cam. Stock mercruiser exhaust [open]. I/O is a Volvo 280. The boat has not been in the water since I've owned it. I bought it without a prop so I have no baseline to start from.

[mphatc]

21 or 23 VOLVO as a start, see where it revs to and go from there.

My guess is you'll end up with a 21 Ultra


Let us know!

Good Luck!
Mario

[Ted Guldemond]

Thanx for the info. I have access to a volvo 15x21 LH. That will be my starting point.

[Morgan's Cloud]

Ted,

Hows about a picture of that boat ? There's only 3 or 4 of us out there you know !

ps .... I have a feeling that it's going to go like hell .... is it a 280T unit ?

Steve

[Ted Guldemond]

The I/O is not a 280T. However it does have power (hydraulic) trim. I adapted a set of merc outboard hydraulic cylinders to the transom shield and made a stainless bracket that attaches to the I/O. I'll try to post some pics. Computers are not my strong point.

[Moody Blu']

The I/O is not a 280T. However it does have power (hydraulic) trim. I adapted a set of merc outboard hydraulic cylinders to the transom shield and made a stainless bracket that attaches to the I/O. I'll try to post some pics. Computers are not my strong point.

I would definately like to see this trim set up.

you can send the pics to me if you like and ill upload them

beerock@optonline.net

[Ted Guldemond]

Heres some pictures.

[Morgan's Cloud]

Ted ,

That's pretty darn clever !

Now you have the best of both worlds . Where did you find the place to run the hydraulic lines through the trans. shield and how did you make it watertight ?

btw , It seems that there is in interesting little tag of some sort on the stbd side of transom ... what could that possibly be ? :D
You don't by chance have a St T with a HIN ?

I'd love to see some more pics..

Steve

[sparepartz]

cool idea on the trim! its good to see pics of other st tropez boats. There really is only a few of us on here!

[Ted Guldemond]

Steve, Thats a good pickup on the HIN. Its also painted in the bow locker. Originally I thought it was the factory number. Since then I've been told that the state of Mass., sometime in the 70's mandated all registered boats have an engraved number on the transom. So I believe the number is not from Donzi. The I/O hydraulics are plumbed through what used to be the hole for the exhaust. I made an aluminum plate with the bolt holes blind taped to block it off. Then I the made a manifold for the hydraulics mounted on the center of the plate. This way there are no additional holes in the transom or the transom shield.

[f_inscreenname]

I was just checking out your pictures and I have lots of questions. I will start off slow.

I came up with the same idea last winter and went as far to make it up in cardboard. Spring time came and I got sidetracked on lots of other stuff. I figured I would try to put it together over this winter but with your set up you can save me a lot of the guess work so here goes.

1. Outboard cylinders. What ones?

2. Are you getting full up and down motion? Mostly will it go all the way down?

The problem I kept having was the cylinders I found were all to long and they wouldn’t let the drive all the way down when fully retracted. The only thing I could come up with is making a bracket that extended the mounting fork further out from the boat. The problem with that was the bracket would have come in contact with the drive when turned side to side. If I used to short of a cylinder it would not put the drive up far enough when it was on the trailer. I then had the idea of just moving the trim bolt (the adjustable bolt in the transom shield) and letting the tilt drive do its thing when the drive just needed to be picked up or let down. Slotting out the bolt holes and attaching 2 short cylinders to each side of the bolt for the movement. The distance of the bolt settings is all you need for the trim when at speed. Hell my boat don’t even like the third setting when going into a turn but it sure does when going flat out.

I will hold off on some of he other questions for now. But I have to ask again, Is it going all the way down? Like will the fork stops go down far enough to hit the second trim bolt hole at a minimum?

[Morgan's Cloud]

:D

Ted ,

I have this dream that one day someone will tell me exactly which (if any) St T's had HIN's and where they are. Mine has been in it's 3 component pieces (hull, deck and floor unit) over the last 3 years and I never found one.
As was said (correctly) on another thread recently, it was'nt mandated until the '70's that boats HAD to have the HIN.
I'm sure , however , that there are a number of -60's owners here who DO have them...

Nonetheless , That trim system is clever .. Do I correctly assume that you have not run this boat yet OR is it just the drive system that is new ?

If you can , do post some more pictures , would like to see much more..

Out of curiosity , how many fuel tanks do you have and where are they located ? And a real farshot here ... could there have ever been a head installed in your boat ? ? ?
Please don't think I'm nuts .. refer to the thread "Don't forget the St Tropez"
(near the end)

Steve

[Ted Guldemond]

Yes it gos all the way down to the lowest tilt hole. It gos up within 1 1/2 inches to the bump stop.

[f_inscreenname]

I am sorry. I am not doubting you but the picture says a thousand words. Maybe they lie though.

So how are you getting this much travel ("A) out of this much cylinder retraction ("B")?
Please again don't get me wrong. If this works right you have made a small dream of having trim on my boat come true.
http://www2.propichosting.com/Images/500529/26.jpg

[f_inscreenname]

I mean with the tilt all the way down (hole closest to the transom) 98% of the fork is inside the transom shield. How is that possible when your cylinders stick out well beyond the transom shield??

[Mercrewser]

I'm just glad he didnt glue a vegamatic on the back. The one below looks pretty sweet regardless. (Didnt mean to hijack, this trim set up is gonna get alot of attention.) Don't let Effen see it in person, he'll drool all over it



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968-Donzi-Hull-San-Tropez-Open-fisherman_W0QQitemZ4567657543QQcategoryZ63726QQssP ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Ted Guldemond]

So many questions. Let me try to answer a few. First of all the boat has yet to see water so I dont know if it will even work. I suspect it will because I'm not the first to use this system. Yes again the I/O drops to the lowest pin setting (actually 1/8 inch lower). I was wrong about highest up postion. I went out and measured it. The upper gear case comes within 1 inch of the bump stop. The boat to my knowledge only had one gas tank. My catalog states "40 gallon hot dipped galvanized tank". I wish I could get some pictures to post. every time I try the computertells me I made a fatal error. I have a series of pictures of how I made the brackets. Also if anyone has specific St. Tropez hardware questions, I have the original 8X10 glossy pictures that were used in the catalog and ads. They show the hardware and dash very well.

[Ted Guldemond]

Heres some additional pictures.

[Ted Guldemond]

Hi Scot, The cylinders were positioned to gain a maximum range of tilt. They could be flipped around but then you need longer hydraulic lines . Also the lines are likely to bind or chafe because of increased movement. This way you can use stock mercruiser lines. One advantage of this system is that its cheap, using as many common parts as possible. Maybe $300 with ebay if you do you own fabrication. Including the hydraulic pump.

[thecore]

Hi Scot, The cylinders were positioned to gain a maximum range of tilt. They could be flipped around but then you need longer hydraulic lines . Also the lines are likely to bind or chafe because of increased movement. This way you can use stock mercruiser lines. One advantage of this system is that its cheap, using as many common parts as possible. Maybe $300 with ebay if you do you own fabrication. Including the hydraulic pump.

Dude, you are The Donzi King, Please tells us more of your incredieble tales of restoration. Has it been tested yet?:smileybo:

[boldts]

Wow, that is really clean! Much better than the attempts I've seen. Thank-you for the pictures. I think what Madpoodle was asking was why the trim cylinders are pointing down rather than being mounted lower to let the piston rods go straight out and up. Was it a case of the cylinder needing to be higher at the base due to only location for mounting? You've got a couple of great Donzi models there. The yellow St Topaz and the GT in the background.

[Ted Guldemond]

The overall length of the cylinders closed necessitates the upward location. If you try to extend the attachment at the I/O bracket aft, then you run into interference when turning. I could have mounted the cylinders lower down on the transom but then you end up with more holes below the water line through the wood transom core. If I were to do it again, I would modify the end of the piston to shorten the overall length of the cylinder assembly.

[Morgan's Cloud]

Ted ,

Thanks for the extra pics.

Funny . seems that no-one's interested in your prop any more huh ? :biggrin.:

If you can scan (or whatever ) that other info with the specs , I'd be very interested to see it .

I don't know how Donzi could have made the St Tropez with a single 42 gallon tank and still keep the lazarette in front of the console.
My forward tank was the factory original and it was 22 gallons .. supplemented by a 20 gallon + or - . under the console .

There is absolutely NO room for anything larger where the front tank is without going rearwards into the lazarette .

It's great comparing notes with another St T owner and your trim has hit a popular note too !

Steve


ps .. AND a GT21 too :garfield:

[Ted Guldemond]

Thank you Steve, When I bought the boat, the gas tank had already been replaced with a 60 gal. tank that extends from the middle of the lazarette to behind the center console. One of the poorest installations I've ever seen, I might add. When I replaced it, I found no evidence of a second tank. By the way. Where was the fill and vent positioned for a rear tank?

[Morgan's Cloud]

Thank you Steve, When I bought the boat, the gas tank had already been replaced with a 60 gal. tank that extends from the middle of the lazarette to behind the center console. One of the poorest installations I've ever seen, I might add. When I replaced it, I found no evidence of a second tank. By the way. Where was the fill and vent positioned for a rear tank?


Ahh ,,
That answers lot of questions Ted !

If the original forward tank had been replaced (and therefore removed) WITHOUT a deck/floor liner removal job being done then it would have been an absolute nightmare removing the original (IF it was removed .... I'm taking a wild guess here that the prev. owner left it there and installed the new one in the next best place that he could find/make.)

If the new one is located where you describe , he would have had to remove an important bulkhead between the stringers just forward of the console.
He also would have had to work 'through' the space provided by the holes for the lazarette hatch and the console resting spot. I can easilly see how it would have turned out the way you describe !

On the St T brochure that I have (it's the all red ST T with the Chalk's Sea Plane in it... oh.. and a bunch of hot -60's babes that Brownie says he does'nt know :jestera: ) on the port side of the hull , directly across from the console is clearly visible a fuel tank vent.
Having had mine apart into it's component pieces, I have NO idea how they could have located it there or routed hoses to it , especially factoring in the need way down the road to eventually have to replace them.

When I got mine in -87 I think the rear tank had been replaced as it had a date sticker on it of 1977 . (my boat is reported to be a -66) The vent was located on the port side of the console.. it worked but I never liked the idea of gas fumes venting into the cockpit while filling up. The fill was crudely mounted on a small horizontal surface on the front of the console (cushion area).
I changed the fill immediately by relocating it inside the console (under the hatch) and in my 3.5 year restoration (to date) I have routed the vent to the front of the boat next to the forward tank's vent (overboard like it should be)

I understand the pic posting issue all too well, when I hit the manage attachments button I get a mass of indecipherable stuff (for lack of a better word). Anything you can post will be appreciated .
Steve

[thecore]

Donzi King, Tell us about the GT 21 in the picture. Does it still have the original 351 Clevland in it. Also do you have any prototypes of that bracket system. You the Man!

[Ted Guldemond]

Mr. Core, The GT-21 is a 1970 (actually built in Nov. 1969.) It was the display boat at the New York Boat Show in 1970. Sadly the original engine which was a 351 Cleveland is long since gone. It was repowered in 1996 with a 351 Windsor, this time with closed cooling. Funny that you mention a prototype on the volvo trim bracket. I do have a set of brackets that I initially intended to use, but scraped because they were in my opinion too thin of stainless flat stock to handle the stress.

[Moody Blu']

thanks for the pics bro!!!

[f_inscreenname]

http://www2.propichosting.com/Images/500529/27.jpgSorry Ted but I still do not understand how the bracket (A) fits inside the transom shield (at B)?? On mine there is only a 1/4 inch between the fork and the shield. Can you take a picture of it all the way down so I will understand. The way I see it is the transom shield would have to be cut away at the bottom so your bracket would not hit it during full down.

[sparepartz]

OK steve and ted. My St t had 2 tanks- the aft one had the vent on the port side as you are describing in the photo and the fuel fill on my boat was on the port- inbetween the 2 rod holders and the fill and vent lines came out from under the gunnel and went to a hole in the floor. also my front tank had a huge( like 4" opening) fuel fill centerline on the front deck right in the way of the vertical door to the bow compartment. still yet there was tanneau snaps all around the the bow section like a pic I have seen before of a race boat with 3- 100hp o/b,and the stern has above water exh outlets- wider than a small block ford (even a 351). makes me wonder what engine was original and what the boat was used for? sorry got long winded. hope info helps with fuel tanks . St T is my fav. donzi.

[Morgan's Cloud]

OK steve and ted. My St t had 2 tanks- the aft one had the vent on the port side as you are describing in the photo *******/ . St T is my fav. donzi.


Funny .. mine never had the fuel vent on the hull for the rear tank ...hmm

Have you had to replace any of your tanks yet ?

"St T is my fav. donzi." ..... Does this mean that you have a fleet of Donzis or that the St T is your favourite model ? :biggrin.:
Only one thing better than having a Donzi , huh ? Having a bunch of them !
Steve

[Ted Guldemond]

Hi Steve and Sparepartz- Do you have any pictures you could post. I never found any evidence of a rear tank. I stipped the boat down to original gelcoat and below. I never found any other holes for a vent or fill fitting other that the one on the port side of the bow deck. I did find evidence of a battery box mounted under the center console in the bilge.

[f_inscreenname]

Looks like it clears to me.... :)

OK, now this hard head has it. One last thing before I buy. Does the outdrive hit the fork brackets when turning side to side?
Also Ted; How much would it cost for you to make me a outdrive fork bracket???? I think I could do the rest with no problems.
Guys I don't mean to be a pain here. I have been going over this on paper and in my mind for months. Every time I get ready to start on the project something else comes up. Now that I have seen a working prototype I want to know as much as I can about it before I build.

[David Hartmann]

I'm looking for advice re: propeller choices. The boat is a 19 ft. St. Tropez [2800lbs] with a 383 sbc with vortec heads and a mild roller cam. Stock mercruiser exhaust [open]. I/O is a Volvo 280. The boat has not been in the water since I've owned it. I bought it without a prop so I have no baseline to start from.

I have a St Tropex also I am running a 21" Bravo Mirage Prop on a 350 MPI Bravo Drive.
I run in the mid 60 mph area 4800 rpm
a lot of porposing at 30 mph

a lot of slip in tight turns or getting on plane in rough water.

I am thinking about getting a 22" rev 4 prop that is supposed to fix these problems

Would love to see some pictures of your boat. there are 4 or 5 of us with St Tropez on the site

[David Hartmann]

OK steve and ted. My St t had 2 tanks- the aft one had the vent on the port side as you are describing in the photo and the fuel fill on my boat was on the port- inbetween the 2 rod holders and the fill and vent lines came out from under the gunnel and went to a hole in the floor. also my front tank had a huge( like 4" opening) fuel fill centerline on the front deck right in the way of the vertical door to the bow compartment. still yet there was tanneau snaps all around the the bow section like a pic I have seen before of a race boat with 3- 100hp o/b,and the stern has above water exh outlets- wider than a small block ford (even a 351). makes me wonder what engine was original and what the boat was used for? sorry got long winded. hope info helps with fuel tanks . St T is my fav. donzi.

Those exhuast ports were wide because the boat originally came with mufflers. I know it is crazy but they were stock on St Tropez's. I took mine out years ago.

Are you saying that the fill hose for the rear tank was exposed half way down the gunnel.

I have had my 65' St Tropex since 1974 and it had a single tanke with a fill on the port side of the bow deck and a vent on the port hull

It should have much more fuel capacity so I can see why an extra tank was added either by Donzi or an owner

I am looking to put 60 gallons under the center console but I am tring to figure out how to fill it, I am thinking long hoses from the bow deck

[Ted Guldemond]

I'll try to take some pictures today of my tank set up and post them later today. In requard to anyone trying to adapt their volvo for power trim. I think I would wait and see if it works before anyone starts cutting and drilling. If it does work I would be happy to post the whole pictural sequence in the How To section if the Harbormaster agrees. I do have a set of brackets that could be copied by any local shop with a welder and a lathe.

[Moody Blu']

im curious to see how much HP they can hold up to without bending the brackets

[Ted Guldemond]

Thats a question I've wondered myself for about 3 years. I'll find out in the next few weeks.

[sparepartz]

david- yea the fill hose was exposed where it went through the floor- the hose is long gone but I will try to find some old pix before I took it out. no wonder the floor rotted there! when I pull the cap and floor to do glass work, I will look for a tank but I doubt I will be there as there is a tank already in that area of the boat 100g,both orig tanks long gone. ALSO on the exh.- My dads st t had spread out outlets with muffs but mine are diffrent like hornet hight and about wide enough for a big block ford (390?) did they make that?

[thecore]

Great Ted, Tell us about the GT 21. It looks like an awsome boat. Is it it in good shape?

[David Hartmann]

This thread is all over the place. sorry for doing this.

That large 4" hole in the cockpit sole was for a glass window to see the fuel gauge, float style that went right into the tank.

as far as a big block they defintily did that. I remember having a original price list with all the options listed it was really cool but I forget most of the details. But I know that big blocks wer available

Me and my dad removed the original tank without lifting the floor. We cut it into pieces then took it out. We sized the replacement tank to fit through the catch well and slide it forward into place and still had full use of the catch well. The tank is approx 30+ gallons.

I still have that tank but really want to put a 60 gal under the center console and then improve the stoarge capacity in the bow seat stoarge and the catch well.

[Ted Guldemond]

Hi David, Placing the tank under the center console is relatively easy. Once the screws are out of the the large center access panel, the whole panel can be lifted from the bow, hinging or pivoting on the aft section. This way you have good access without having to disconnect any existing wiring or cables. The hardest part for me was glassing in new fore and aft bulkheads to contain the tank. And yes I foamed the tank in.