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showtime
07-25-2005, 09:11 PM
I'm a new member as of today and will be a boat owner this weekend. I am buying a '90 Z33 460s/king cobra,stop snickering I was LOOKING for Ford power, and the current owner says he has only made it up to 52mph!! What does it take to go 60 or more? Is 70 out of the question w/supercharging? I am new to big boats but the props are 4 blade. What should I have for more speed? Is this a typical top end for the big Fords or is this thing sick or not set up right? I've heard mostly bad about the king cobras but it seems the people bad mouthing them have never had one! I was told by a local boat racer and fellow Ford fanatic that their upper limit is 500hp. Everything seems to be untouched, so what is a good starting point to improve performance? No I'm not going to install Chevy power. I've always hot rodded and raced Fords but I know boats are a different animal. Thanks!

mattyboy
07-26-2005, 05:56 PM
Showtime
all it takes is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ how fast do you want to go ????
you'll find marine hi po parts for fords very scarce and hipo parts for OMC drives rare too, that's why chevies and merc's are the choice for big hp apps,
i would figure about 1000$ bucks a mph so figure 20 Large to get to upper 60's then you have to say is it worth it or just enjoy the boat for what it is a big comfortable stylish sport boat that will do mid 50's in all conditions

Cuda
07-26-2005, 07:09 PM
I think the 460's should get you to 60. It may just need a tuneup. What shape is the bottom in? Has it been bottom painted? :bawling:

showtime
07-26-2005, 10:04 PM
The bottom has been painted and looks to be in good shape. What is the effect of a 4 blade prop versus a 3 blade?
I think the 460's should get you to 60. It may just need a tuneup. What shape is the bottom in? Has it been bottom painted? :bawling:

Cuda
07-26-2005, 10:29 PM
The bottom paint will slow it down some. The three blade is generally considered faster in most cases, with the four blade having better handling and holeshot. I don't think you lose a lot of top end on four blades though.

Moody Blu'
07-27-2005, 12:11 AM
Showtime
all it takes is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ how fast do you want to go ????
you'll find marine hi po parts for fords very scarce and hipo parts for OMC drives rare too, that's why chevies and merc's are the choice for big hp apps,
i would figure about 1000$ bucks a mph so figure 20 Large to get to upper 60's then you have to say is it worth it or just enjoy the boat for what it is a big comfortable stylish sport boat that will do mid 50's in all conditions

1000 BUX a MPH!!!!!
come on matty you cant be serious dont scare the bijesus out of him.
If you plan on taking the motors out you can swap the cams out with cams with a bit of a higher lift and retain the stock valve train and gain 4-5 mph. and cams are cheap. 100-300, a custom one like mine would cost around 400-500.Or you could get some worked heads if your serious about more speed.
Dont be scared about no HI PO parts for the fords. the only real HIPO marine part you really need are some stainless watercooled headers. There is a company in australia called hi tek that manufacturers equal length tubular watercooled headers for fords. at a reasonable price.
http://www.hitekmarine.com.au/

I have a set on my ford 351w and i love them, albeit i had mine made a little larger for more output at high rpm so i had some drawbacks but other then that there awesome.

but like matty said it depends on how much you want to spend to go fast.

quick swaps i can think of would be.

headers
performance intake manifolds and possibly larger carbs
High output ignition and coil like a msd or something.
if your mechanically inclined, swap the cams for more power.

imho the electronic ignitions on the new boats arent to friendly and if something goes wrong electrically youll be pulling your hair out like some of these fellas trying to figure out whats wrong. I run a MSD 6T(circle track) ignition with rev limiter. its simple, turn on the ignition start the motor. if theres a problem(highly doubtful) trouble shooting a msd ignition is easy. also, using this kind of ignition bypasses all the safety circuitry in the complicated ignitions the oems provide. in gear solenoids going bad etc...

enough of my ranting.

I love my ford though and would never swap to a chevy
its good to be different.

newz33
07-27-2005, 12:19 AM
Have you already bought the Z33? I have a 1989 with Mercruiser 454 Magnums, and parts and maintenance are no problem. I've heard that the King Cobras have trouble in this regard. If you go for a Mercruiser boat, try to find the Magnums-they have 365hp instead of 330.

Mine will do just over 60, but with bottom paint you probably won't do much over 55. The Z33 is beamier than most boats in its class, so it is a little slower, but it is a much better cruiser. I can get four girls on the sun pad comfortably.

Donzigo really knows more about the Z33 than anybody else, so I would recommend talking to him before buying, and check the other posts here for more info.

gold-n-rod
07-27-2005, 06:14 AM
I can get four girls on the sun pad comfortably.

Braggard!!!

:eek:

mattyboy
07-27-2005, 06:33 AM
moody,
a 1000 bucks easy in a twin application I think you've been airborne in that 18 too long and have oxygen depravity

a good ss prop 500 bucks times 2
2 cams 2 carbs 2 intakes 4 heads 4 headers??? that will add up quick

the biggest gain would be making the drives more hydrodynamic do the make a shorty for an omc ?? or are 2 bravos with imco shorties needed???

not trying to scare anyone just trying to avoid buyers remorse

should it be a low 60's boat sure Cuda on the right track get em tuned up get the bottom paint off that in itself is a big task on a 33 footer

MOP
07-27-2005, 07:48 AM
You should get close with the right props and getting it running at its best, Chris (Extreme Measures) had a 30 foot Black Widow with the 460/King package. I am pretty sure he said it did a tad over 60 you should be very close behind that number. One thing you may give up a little in speed but you gain a lot in comfort in a heavy chop.

Phil

Moody Blu'
07-27-2005, 07:53 AM
moody,
a 1000 bucks easy in a twin application I think you've been airborne in that 18 too long and have oxygen depravity

a good ss prop 500 bucks times 2
2 cams 2 carbs 2 intakes 4 heads 4 headers??? that will add up quick

the biggest gain would be making the drives more hydrodynamic do the make a shorty for an omc ?? or are 2 bravos with imco shorties needed???

not trying to scare anyone just trying to avoid buyers remorse

should it be a low 60's boat sure Cuda on the right track get em tuned up get the bottom paint off that in itself is a big task on a 33 footer

you havent been airborne enough :shades:
the air up there flyin high is better then the hot air down here. :P

my point was its not 1000 bux a MPH
2 cams and 2 carbs is probably around 1000 bux maybe a little less but would give more then 1 mph. 4 headers would DEFINATELY give more then 3 MPH .

Woodsy
07-27-2005, 07:54 AM
You guys are way off base....

The first thing he needs to do is get rid of the bottom paint... theres an easy 5mph right there.

There are plenty of hot rod parts for the 460 Fords... heads, cams, blowers etc. No issues making some serious HP with those motors. the issue with the Ford motors will be exhaust related... no real hi-po marine setups. You will have to have CMI make you up a set of headers, and they won't be cheap.

The OMC King Cobra setup is pretty darn reliable. Hopefully you have the ones with the Cone Clutch (they have a hump on the top of the drive) Make sure you keep the shifters adjusted properly. You need to remember the weight of the boat and not hole shot the drives. They will live a long time that way, even with 500+ HP.

Hope that helps...

Woodsy

Moody Blu'
07-27-2005, 08:02 AM
You guys are way off base....

The first thing he needs to do is get rid of the bottom paint... theres an easy 5mph right there.

There are plenty of hot rod parts for the 460 Fords... heads, cams, blowers etc. No issues making some serious HP with those motors. the issue with the Ford motors will be exhaust related... no real hi-po marine setups. You will have to have CMI make you up a set of headers, and they won't be cheap.



woodsy i covered the header part, hi tek makes headers alot cheaper then CMI

33 crossbow
07-27-2005, 08:05 AM
You should get close with the right props and getting it running at its best, Chris (Extreme Measures) had a 30 foot Black Widow with the 460/King package. I am pretty sure he said it did a tad over 60 you should be very close behind that number. One thing you may give up a little in speed but you gain a lot in comfort in a heavy chop.

Phil



I have a 88 33 crossbow that I have re-done, inside and out. The power is twin 509 inch SRE (SOLLER RACING ENGINES) and 625hp each. I have the MERC. 2"shorty sportmaster drives and 30 pitch 4 blade props. The boat runs in the MID 80's on GPS and pulls hard gettin there(in a hurry). Any questions I would love to talk...........TIM.

A few pics............................

Moody Blu'
07-27-2005, 08:06 AM
You guys are way off base....

The first thing he needs to do is get rid of the bottom paint... theres an easy 5mph right there.

There are plenty of hot rod parts for the 460 Fords... heads, cams, blowers etc. No issues making some serious HP with those motors. the issue with the Ford motors will be exhaust related... no real hi-po marine setups. You will have to have CMI make you up a set of headers, and they won't be cheap.



woodsy i covered the header part, hi tek makes headers alot cheaper then CMI ;)

Cuda
07-27-2005, 08:38 AM
The first thing he needs to do is get rid of the bottom paint... theres an easy 5mph right there.



That's the route I would go, but trust me, removing bottom paint ain't no easy task, and he may not be able to do it if it's kept in the water. I'd get it running at it's best in stock form, and be happy with it. Otherwise, you'll have more money in the repower than you probably currently have in the boat. If it doesn't go fast enough to suit you then, either sell it, and buy a boat that IS fast enough to suit you, OR drill out the speedo pitot. :)

Cuda
07-27-2005, 08:42 AM
Oh, and there are a few high performance Ford marine engines out there. This guy might know a thing or two about them. :cool: :yes: :wink:

mattyboy
07-27-2005, 08:46 AM
see moody lack of oxygen you're stuttering :p

Cross bow nice setup bet ya dropped some nice coinage there

Woodsy yes you right the omc is a strong drive, I was trying to get the point across if you want to go for it giving up on the 460 and omc setup and go to the dark side

Rootsy
07-27-2005, 09:03 AM
i donno what world you're living in moody but by the time you pop for 2 carbs and 2 camshafts you'll be at a grand... but you neglect the rest of the valvetrain components, the gaskets, the labor (not many boats where you can swap cams IN the bilge), the fluids and everything else that goes along with that stuff... oh my bad... that stuff just magically appears right? :rolleyes:

JR - where'd i put my hood scoop

Cuda
07-27-2005, 09:10 AM
i donno what world you're living in moody but by the time you pop for 2 carbs and 2 camshafts you'll be at a grand... but you neglect the rest of the valvetrain components, the gaskets, the labor (not many boats where you can swap cams IN the bilge), the fluids and everything else that goes along with that stuff... oh my bad... that stuff just magically appears right? :rolleyes:

JR - where'd i put my hood scoop
I was thinking along the same lines. Two Barry Grant carbs will set you back a grand! :shocking:

Woodsy
07-27-2005, 09:12 AM
Cuda,

I was looking at bang for the buck so to speak. I know bottom paint removal is a biatch, but, its probably alot cheaper than hopping up 2 motors. I am guessing that to do the motors right, your looking at about 3K-4K per motor. You also don't know what shape the motors are really in until they are taken apart. Removing the bottom paint It also affords you the opportunity to straighten and remove any hook or rocker to the running surface. Its an easy 5mph gain for approx $1000 or so... not too bad in the boat world.

The guy needs to preform a leakdown test to determine the true health of his motors... BEFORE HE BUYS!

Woodsy

Cuda
07-27-2005, 09:21 AM
Cuda,

I was looking at bang for the buck so to speak. I know bottom paint removal is a biatch, but, its probably alot cheaper than hopping up 2 motors.
Woodsy
Yes, you and I were on the same page. You can do it for even less than a grand if you don't mind investing a LOT of sweat equity. I've done it twice, and I'll NEVER do it again myself.

pmreed
07-27-2005, 11:40 AM
Whadda ya mean you Joe?? That sure looks like a more petite leg and arm attached to that chisel!! :biggrin.:

Phil

turbo2256
07-27-2005, 12:13 PM
I'm a new member as of today and will be a boat owner this weekend. I am buying a '90 Z33 460s/king cobra,stop snickering I was LOOKING for Ford power, and the current owner says he has only made it up to 52mph!! What does it take to go 60 or more? Is 70 out of the question w/supercharging? I am new to big boats but the props are 4 blade. What should I have for more speed? Is this a typical top end for the big Fords or is this thing sick or not set up right? I've heard mostly bad about the king cobras but it seems the people bad mouthing them have never had one! I was told by a local boat racer and fellow Ford fanatic that their upper limit is 500hp. Everything seems to be untouched, so what is a good starting point to improve performance? No I'm not going to install Chevy power. I've always hot rodded and raced Fords but I know boats are a different animal. Thanks!

The best bang for the bucks is to have the heads ported by a good shop better intake and exhaust manifolding and a carb would be needed to take full advantage of the head work but could be added later a hoter cam not as necessary. Bottom line I would perfer Ford power in my boat.

Woodsy
07-27-2005, 12:19 PM
turbo...

You can have all the HP you want, but if your bottom is painted, you aint going anywhere fast....

Get rid of the bottom paint, then play with the motors!!

Donzigo
07-27-2005, 05:29 PM
Remember that the original plan for this hull with the 454 Merc set-up was 60MPH. My guess is tht the Cobra set-up gets about the same 60MPH.

I agree with everyone else that you loose the bottom paint, you go faster.

Moody Blu'
07-27-2005, 07:57 PM
i donno what world you're living in moody but by the time you pop for 2 carbs and 2 camshafts you'll be at a grand... but you neglect the rest of the valvetrain components, the gaskets, the labor (not many boats where you can swap cams IN the bilge), the fluids and everything else that goes along with that stuff... oh my bad... that stuff just magically appears right? :rolleyes:

JR - where'd i put my hood scoop

wow you guys just love to kick me any chance you get, now i know why i rarely post anymore because of arrogant posts like that.

did you bother to read my post? I said if he was mechanically inclined.I also said 2 carbs and 2 cams is about a grand.

and NO cuda im not thinkin about some crazy ass carbs, im thinkin along the lines of a 750 or 850 cfm edelbrock.

i got your hoodscoop right here. :cool:

Moody Blu'
07-27-2005, 08:03 PM
see moody lack of oxygen you're stuttering :p



yea well you still havent been as high as i have in the classic. maybe on somethin else like them boat sodas.

mattyboy
07-27-2005, 08:21 PM
yeah my boat doesn't go that high now that i think of it it doesn't go as low as yours either


now back to the topic my point was NOT to start a **** storm just to bring out the point it cost money to go fast and yes maybe I was on the high side but every project I have seems to take twice as much and twice as long

so props 1k 2 mph
engines 6-8 k 5 mph
paint removal 1k 5 mph
headers 3k 3 mph
labor 1k for the above even your own time is worth money

13 k for a 15 mph pickup am I way out of line that would take him from 52 mph to 67 mph

now if the headers are part of the engine cost then i am way out of line
but we have not mentioned anything about beefing up the steering with the big increase of speed

Cuda
07-27-2005, 08:40 PM
It's basically what I tell everyone now days that asks about hopping up a boat, that isn't fast enough to suit them. I think you come out miles ahead buying one that does suit you, than throwing gobs of money at a boat that you will never get back out of it. Now, for nuts like me, it doesn't apply, because I never plan on selling a boat. If it's one that you know will suit you forever, by all means dump all the money you can afford in it, if that's what makes you happy.

showtime
07-27-2005, 10:11 PM
Thanks for all of your opinions and advice. I didn't mean to start a riot though!!! Seems that everyone agrees I need to start scraping the hull down, I had no idea bottom paint is a problem. I know from my automotive hot rodding that Fords are not usually that much more expensive to build, and Chevys break too! Heck a buddy has a 42 Fountain w/t-454s and it seems he has to spend a week or two and $500-$1000 before he takes it out on the lake for a week end! I think I'll tune them up and scrape the hull in the next year and start modifying from there. I'm sure they will end up supercharged at some point. It's always cool to have a combination no one else has and yes it costs $$ to be different! And contrary to newZ33's comment, my wife is sure 4 girls WILL NOT fit on the sunpad. So much for that fantasy.

blackhawk
07-27-2005, 10:22 PM
Showtime, way to start a friggen riot! :rolleyes: :biggrin.:

It happens, this stuff is an art, not a science and everyone has their opinions as to how to accomplish them!

What kind of hp do the 460s have now and what does the boat weigh?

Lenny
07-27-2005, 11:32 PM
Matty, ... "****-storm" ... We own that. That is a Canadian saying. You stole that. That is part of our heritage and about all we can offer so I am a bit protective ;)

TPB are my heros :D

Rootsy
07-28-2005, 06:45 AM
wow you guys just love to kick me any chance you get, now i know why i rarely post anymore because of arrogant posts like that.

i got your hoodscoop right here. :cool:

I tend to think of it as confidence.... :biggrin:

Cuda
07-28-2005, 07:36 AM
Ah, there's nothing we enjoy more than a little riot now and then. :)

turbo2256
07-28-2005, 08:07 AM
:banghead: :bonk: :lightning :fire: :beer: :bonk: :rlol: :uzi: :outtahere

blackhawk
07-28-2005, 03:22 PM
$1000 a mph?!? :rolleyes: Not buying it! MAYBE when you're talking big power and big mph.

I know nothing about bottom paint at all, but everyone agrees it should be good for 5 mph. So, for about $1k and a huge pain in the azz :D you have 5 mph, that put's us at 57mph.

Okay, here's some assumptions. What does a Z33 weigh? 10,000lbs or so? And I'm assuming these 460s are about 340hp so? So, with 680 hp the boat will do 57. So, what hp will it take to push the boat 65 mph? 850-900?

Okay, what does it take to make a 460 push 425-450 hp? And I'm being serious here cause I have no idea. Camshaft, lifters, springs, etc, intake and carb? Will that do it? If so what's the cost to do it right? $2k per engine?

Do we really need headers for 425-450hp?

Sounds like showtime knows his Fords, so he may be able to do the work himself and if not I am sure he knows someone that can.

Find a couple good used props for $300 apiece or so.

So how much would it really cost to hit 65mph?

33 crossbow
07-29-2005, 11:10 AM
$1000 a mph?!? :rolleyes: Not buying it! MAYBE when you're talking big power and big mph.

I know nothing about bottom paint at all, but everyone agrees it should be good for 5 mph. So, for about $1k and a huge pain in the azz :D you have 5 mph, that put's us at 57mph.

Okay, here's some assumptions. What does a Z33 weigh? 10,000lbs or so? And I'm assuming these 460s are about 340hp so? So, with 680 hp the boat will do 57. So, what hp will it take to push the boat 65 mph? 850-900?

Okay, what does it take to make a 460 push 425-450 hp? And I'm being serious here cause I have no idea. Camshaft, lifters, springs, etc, intake and carb? Will that do it? If so what's the cost to do it right? $2k per engine?

Do we really need headers for 425-450hp?

Sounds like showtime knows his Fords, so he may be able to do the work himself and if not I am sure he knows someone that can.

Find a couple good used props for $300 apiece or so.

So how much would it really cost to hit 65mph?


My 33 that has been re-done and stripped down below of all that crap you never use........ has a weight of about 7500lbs. and with the total HP of 1250 and 30 pitch 4 blades it runs NO PROBLEM in the MID 80's on GPS. However my slip factor is still on the high side 18% or so... 5 blades would be the trick.

Just a little info.
TIM

Moody Blu'
08-01-2005, 10:59 PM
yeah my boat doesn't go that high now that i think of it it doesn't go as low as yours either



maybe when it was on the ground, but in the water yours
will always be lower :hyper:


I tend to think of it as confidence.... :biggrin:

keep tellin yourself that :chillpill

mattyboy
08-02-2005, 08:44 AM
maybe when it was on the ground, but in the water yours
will always be lower :hyper:



keep tellin yourself that :chillpill


man when I grow up I want to be just like you :jestera:

Moody Blu'
08-02-2005, 07:09 PM
man when I grow up I want to be just like you :jestera:

keep dreamin :rlol:

so hows that radical cam workin, your boat still shakin? how much power you puttin out now? 100hp? :umbrella:

mattyboy
08-02-2005, 10:41 PM
nope not that much, but it's allright it never leaves the dock, and it only goes out on calm days, but hey you have a trailer now maybe you can get to an event and show me how the big boys do it :yes: