OK, Time to get this thing running...

[txtaz]

I'm going to nail this down #@$%$#^%@. I had an appointment this morning to check out the ECM, BUT their idea of an appointment is to drop it off and they will get to it in the next 2 weeks. Grrrrrrrrr, service people are really starting to make me mad.
So now I am tearing the thing apart myself. Poodle is sending a Mercruiser manual to replace my Seloc. I'm thinking of getting a code mate or the full blown software for the ECM from http://216.230.203.183/marine/marine.htm

Here's what I have: (350 MAG MPI)
1. WOT at 4600 RPMS No matter what the load is...Finally got close to 70 but still not winding out
2. The throttle linkage is good, meaning I have full range on the throttle body through full throw of remote
3. Throttle response stops at 75% range, meaning the throttle body opens further with no incerease in RPM's
4. I'm soaking the flame arestor as we...Uhhhmmmm, I mean as I type
5. I should get another 600 RPM's and 6 or 7 MPH
6. Prop is 25 Mirage Plus labbed just done
7. Slip close to 13
8. New plugs, distributor, cap/rotor, pumps...basically all stuff you can replace without pulling the motor
9. The boat is sluggish coming off plane when is should jump on plane. ( from the builder )

ANYONE, who has suggestions on what to do next will be greatly appreciated. I will run the boat in the morning to see if an increased air flow helps the situation.
Thanks,
Wes

[Reedy]

Wes, what props have you been thru?




I'm going to nail this down #@$%$#^%@. I had an appointment this morning to check out the ECM, BUT their idea of an appointment is to drop it off and they will get to it in the next 2 weeks. Grrrrrrrrr, service people are really starting to make me mad.
So now I am tearing the thing apart myself. Poodle is sending a Mercruiser manual to replace my Seloc. I'm thinking of getting a code mate or the full blown software for the ECM from http://216.230.203.183/marine/marine.htm

Here's what I have: (350 MAG MPI)
1. WOT at 4600 RPMS No matter what the load is...Finally got close to 70 but still not winding out
2. The throttle linkage is good, meaning I have full range on the throttle body through full throw of remote
3. Throttle response stops at 75% range, meaning the throttle body opens further with no incerease in RPM's
4. I'm soaking the flame arestor as we...Uhhhmmmm, I mean as I type
5. I should get another 600 RPM's and 6 or 7 MPH
6. Prop is 25 Mirage Plus labbed just done
7. Slip close to 13
8. New plugs, distributor, cap/rotor, pumps...basically all stuff you can replace without pulling the motor
9. The boat is sluggish coming off plane when is should jump on plane. ( from the builder )

ANYONE, who has suggestions on what to do next will be greatly appreciated. I will run the boat in the morning to see if an increased air flow helps the situation.
Thanks,
Wes

[Dave_N]

What year is the engine? As far as the code/scan tool, you can read codes with just a 12volt LED (unless it's a ECM555 engine).

Dave

[txtaz]

Hey Mark (I promise to bring disks to TR4), It came with a 27 which is not what should be on it. After talking with Ted, I got the labbed 25. He had a labbed 25 and said it ran great (74.5 gps). I gained about 6MPH on the change but it still does not perform as it should. I am taking this week TO MAKE IT perform. Wipple anyone?
Dave it is a 98. I'm not sure if it a ECM 555 engine. How can I tell and where do I get the codes? I used to do that with my SCCA race Bimmer.
Thanks guys,
Wes

[Woodsy]

Replace all of your filters before you start, especially the fuel filter and fuel water separator. It doesn't matter if you "just did it". replace them again. Check your fuel pressure.

I don't think your going to see another 600 RPM pulling a 25P. You didn't say what drive ratio your running. But I am assuming its a 1.5 Bravo.

Sounds to me like your just not making enough power to pull a 25P Mirage to 5000 RPM. I'll bet there is nothing wrong with your motor...

Woodsy Von Gear Ratio

[txtaz]

Replace all of your filters before you start, especially the fuel filter and fuel water separator. It doesn't matter if you "just did it". replace them again. Check your fuel pressure.

I don't think your going to see another 600 RPM pulling a 25P. You didn't say what drive ratio your running. But I am assuming its a 1.5 Bravo.

Sounds to me like your just not making enough power to pull a 25P Mirage to 5000 RPM. I'll bet there is nothing wrong with your motor...

Woodsy Von Gear Ratio

Ohhh Poodle....Can you add a fuel water seperator to that order please? I don't think I have a fuel filter per say. Yes it's 1.5:1. According to Ted, the motor pulls much harder than what I'm getting and he ran a 25 when he built it.
Wes ( I'm going fast come hell, high water (no offense Fl), or a whipple)

[Mr X]

Wes, I ran 3 dirrerent 25 Mirage Plus labs, utill I found the ONE that worked the best!

No two props are the same.......

[Dave_N]

Wes,
To read codes you will need a 12volt LED and a small paper clip (cut in half to make a "U" shape).


How to hook it up:

1) Ignition key “OFF”

2) Locate and remove the cap from the 10 pin Data Link Connector (DLC)

3) Slide the LED into the female terminals of position E and F on the DLC, making sure that the positive side goes into terminal F and the negative side into terminal E

4) Turn the ignition key to the “ON” position (LED should come on)

5) Insert the half paperclip into terminals A and B – This puts the engine in “Service Mode” - (codes will begin to flash on the LED)

6) Read codes by observing LED flashs. A normal sequence will begin with the code 12, indicating that the self diagnostic system is functioning properly. In the event of multiple stored codes additional codes will be displayed in numerical order, from lowest to highest. Each code will flash its sequence three times. Continue to observe codes until code 12 is repeated.


Example for reading stored Code 42 (Code 12 will always be first):
Code tool is connected and begins to flash:

one flash, pause, two flashes, long pause
one flash, pause, two flashes, long pause
one flash, pause, two flashes, long pause
four flashes, pause, two flashes, long pause
four flashes, pause, two flashes, long pause
four flashes, pause, two flashes, long pause - Sequence starts over again

GM Marine EFI Systems Trouble Codes

12 - Self Diagnostic System Functioning Properly
14 - Coolant Temperature Sensor (CTS) Low Temp
15 - Coolant Temperature Sensor (CTS) High Temp
21 - Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) Signal Voltage High
22 - Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) Signal Voltage Low
23 - Manifold Air Temperature Sensor (MAT) Low Temp
25 - Manifold Air Temperature Sensor (MAT) High Temp
33 - Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Signal Voltage High
34 - Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Signal Voltage Low
41 - Ignition Control Circuit (IC) Open IC Circuit
42 - Ignition Control Circuit (IC) Grounded or Open Bypass
43 - Knock Sensor (KS) Continuous Knock Detected
44 - Knock Sensor (KS) No Knock Detected
45 - Coil Driver Fault
51 - ECM Calibration Memory Failure
61 - Fuel Pressure High
62 - Fuel Pressure Low

Dave

[Woodsy]

Wes...

I went and played with the prop calc....

If you run your numbers thru the prop calculator, at 4600 rpm/1.5 drive/25p prop @68mph you are getting 6.3% slip... Thats pretty damm good!

At 5000 rpm/1.5 drive/25p prop @ 71mph you have 10% slip.

I really think there is nothing wrong with your motor. You just don't have the juice to pull that prop to 5000 rpm...

Woodsy

[blackhawk]

Wes, did the boat run faster @5000 rpm with the prop you are using now or a different 25? As Ted said, every prop is different.

[txtaz]

Woodsy, Wow, 6.3 slip...NOW that's cool. The 27 was at 13%. I wanted to try a 23 cleaver last weekend but we didn't have the right spacers. I really think something is amiss. If not I will become a motor guru trying to learn nothing is wrong.

Dave, Thanks for that post. It will become a part of my service manual. You saved me at least $400 on a diagnostics tool. I might still get the software to map out curves on the laptop. That would be cool.

Blackhawk, I have yet to hit 5k. I went from 4400 to 4600 on the prop change.

Ted - 3???? What is the best way to get props to test? I don't want to put out $2400 for three labbed props, have 2 left over and ebay them.

Thanks everyone.
Wes <---- Learning to be a guru of trim systems today (water in oil)

[Rootsy]

honestly, an 18 w/ 350 mag and a 1.5 ratio drive is delivered with a 21 or 23P prop... takes a 1.65 ratio to turn a 25P to the 5K mark... look at ranman's 18... 350 mag, 1.65 bravo, 25 mirage at 5000 to like 5200 rpm, that mirage may be labbed also, but my memory leaves me at the moment...he has a strong motor for sure and his 18 is a pure runner from a "stock" standpoint.

i honestly don't think anything in particular is "wrong" with your powerplant either... but then again i don't know if ted did any tricks to it or the hull to get 5K out of it with a 25P and a 350 mag motor...

I once lost 500 rpm and couldn't figure out where it went... i had a loose connection at the battery... i'd see the tach jump now and again when running... motor started fine, cold or hot... but WOT rpm was down... goes to show you just how much juice the ignition is sucking at those rpms... which the alternator has to support if the battery cannot.

have you weighed the boat just to make sure it isnt full of water somewhere?

fuel pressure and volume are very important on an efi motor... as well as cleanliness of the throttle body, plenum and injectors... i assume the map of this motor has not been modified...

lastly.. your motor i believe has a TBolt V ignition system in it. which has it's own governing power over ignition advance... basically it'll keep feeding timing until the motor will not gain anymore rpm then it willnot add more... i believe the system is capable of 21 or 22* of total advance... in order to set initial timing you have to ground the system or the computer will compensate when attempting to set initial timing via rotating the distributor... you also have to ground that little purple wire with the white stripe when checking initial timing... this basically disables the ignition advance of the module and puts the system into a "base" ignition mode. lastly for that system it incorporates a knock sensor... SO if the motor begins to ping due to inadequate fuel grade or what not the ignition retards itself to keep the motor from putting a hole in the top of a piston.

just a few things to toss into the fray...

JR

[blackhawk]

Is this a stock 350 Mag MPI? If it is I agree with Rootsy a 25 is going to be tough to spool with a 1.5 ratio. I was in the same situation which is why I am selling my 25. Didn't have the power to spool it. I seriously thought about sending it out and getting it turned into a 24 and tweaked since I really liked how it carried my boat, but wasn't sure if I wanted to spend that kind of money for 1-2 mph. I still might if it doesn't sell.

And like Ted said, no two props are the same, especially labbed props. When I talked to Julie at Throttle-up they wanted to know EVERYTHING about my boat, which means they can do different things during the labbing for your specific boat. That is why I wanted to start out with a new, untouched prop.

[txtaz]

Thanks guys, I'm going to try Dave's trouble code idea and see if anything is stored there. I'll get back to working on it in the morning, I just finished up a fluid change in the trim system in 102F heat.
Rootsy, Ted said it ran about 5k and 74.5 mph with a 25. If it did once, it shall again...one way or another. Can you tell I'm determined??? BUT, while working on the boat today, I found a ground wire that was off the terminal on the transom. I couldn't tell what it was to because it went into a wire loom. So I attached it just in case. Maybe that has something to do with spark power. As far as water, this is the dryest boat I have ever owned. After a day of boating, I pull the plug and only get a drop or two. What freaked me out one weekend is when the bilge pump kicked on. It was the first time I used the floor cooler and all the ice melted. Glad to know my pump works in auto.
Ted, Did you have a 1.50:1 or 1.65:1 initially? It's a 1.50:1 now. Remember that blank serial plate I mentioned? Perhaps the drive was changed as well. Also I forgot to ask when we talked, is the motor stock?
Thanks again everyone. I'm going to pull trouble codes in the morning then head to the lake for a test run. I'll post more later.
Wes

[Mr X]

Wes, it is/was a 1:65 Bravo with the factory low water pick up on it.

That would explain a lot if it is now a 1:50......you wont be able to turn the 25 lab with a 1:50.....
Try a 23 lab if you can.

[blackhawk]

And there you have it! :D

Ted, is the motor stock? 74mph is ripping for a stock 350 MPI!

[Mr X]

No it is not stock......it has stainless marine manifolds and a re-mapped MEFI-3 CPU

[Cuda]

I don't think there is anything wrong with your engine either. I'd be happy with those numbers and a stock engine,

[RedDog]

so is it a 1.5 or a 1.65 ratio? No one can help until that question is answered definitively. Seems others, and maybe me, have asked this question before without the answer being given.

If 1.5 @ 4600 with a 25 inch prop you are about the best you can hope for a near stock 350 mpi. Most peole need around 400+ HP and a big block to swing a 25 inch in the 5000 RPM range

[txtaz]

The answer is....
Was a 1.65 with a 25 prop. Now is a 1.50 with a 25 prop, but came to me with a 1.50 and 27 prop. As Ted said, it answers a lot of questions. Apparently the person I bought the boat from had done some serious damage to the lower unit and put a standard Bravo on. AND the one he put on had been repaired with wire and bondo and a 1/8" bend in the prop shaft. When I hit something small the bondo departed and the questions started. NOW, I have the answers. HM, I now agree with what you said last year. You've got mail.
So where do I go from here? New prop or new lower unit? Can I replace the gear set to a 1.65:1? Preferably hardened, so I can add more power later.
Thanks everyone, it feels good to have THE answer. Now progress can be made.
Wes

[RedDog]

so... no secret solution.

If you have a 1.5 and are spinning it at 4600 - which sounds respectable for a near stock 350 and 25 inch prop - then you need to try a 23 inch prop (like most folks are running on their 350 mpi 18's).

Sounds like Ted was running a perfect 25 on the 1.65 gears. No way you could optimately run a 25 with 1.5 gears. With the ECM change Ted mentioned, you may be able to see a real RPM and speed boost by going with the lower pitched prop better matching your set-up

[txtaz]

Thanks everyone. A new 23 Mirage + will be on it's way thanks to Blackhawk. I'll post the performance numbers when I get it.
Wes

[Mr X]

Wes,

dont you ever sleep?? :jestera:

[Woodsy]

Wes...

Take your 25P Mirage to a prop shop and have it worked to a 24P... It should put you right where you want to be.....

Woodsy Von Gear Ratio

[BUIZILLA]

My .02 says that a M+ will throw that thing around, more than you will be happy with....

JH

[txtaz]

Wes,

dont you ever sleep?? :jestera:
Early to bed, early to rise....
The early bird gets... :propeller
Yeah I get up early. BUT I get more done before 8 am than I do all day. :idea:

Woodsy, I have a 23 coming, I'm not sure what I will do with the 25. I'll wait and see.

Buizilla, The 25 is a Mirage +. AND I like to have a boat on the edge. If it's too much, I can always have the 25 worked.

Thanks everyone.
Wes

[txtaz]

Dave, You rock with that info. I tried it and everything worked great. I did not have any codes stored. Which is a good thing, but leaves me with little to fix. How do I clear a trouble code if I get one?
AND, is it possible to get a male DLC to make a plug in diagnostic too?
Thanks everyone, can't wait to try the new prop.
Wes

[Mr X]

Wes, just buy one of the mercury scan tools on ebay.

I see them on there fairly often, the older style like I have.

I paid around $200.00 for mine and it does everything.

[txtaz]

Wes, just buy one of the mercury scan tools on ebay.

I see them on there fairly often, the older style like I have.

I paid around $200.00 for mine and it does everything.
Ted, I was thinking of making my own interface and program for the ECM. It should be pretty easy, a DLC cap, some wires, a voltage devider and USB plug. Done deal. The hard part will be the communications to write to the ECM so I don't screw anything up. Reading should be a piece of cake, and it would be nice to plug in a laptop and record everything on full power runs. If anyone has info on the ECM's or where to get it, I will make the program and diagrams to make the adapter available. I have done dozens of programs like this, so I can't imagine this should be any harder. I just need the specs to write to the ECM EEPROM.
Thanks,
Wes (Going boating tomorrow)

[Dave_N]

Wes,
I have part numbers and sources for all the Delphi/Packard Metri-Pack connectors, seals, terminals, and TPA's (Terminal Position Assurance - the gray thing thats clips to the top of the connectors) needed to connect to the DLC.

I make my own engine data link harness' (for connecting to two engines at once) and code tools (Pic below) with these connectors. If it is of any help, I will send you a female connector and all parts necessary to make a connector for the DLC. No charge, I've got a bunch of them.

Have you seen/tryed Rinda Technologies "Diacom" Marine EFI diagnostic software? I have spent a lot of time over the last four years using Diacom and recorded more than a thousand data files. It is good software, but I wish it had more data analysis features. It is good for data acquisition and export.

I am not a programmer by any means, but I can do real basic stuff like export the data to Excel and generate graphs of specific engine functions for analysis. This is my idea of fun. :yes:

Dave

[gold-n-rod]

If it is of any help, I will send you a female and all parts necessary. No charge, I've got a bunch of them.

This is my idea of fun. :yes:

Dave

Me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Send her to <goldnrod24@hotmail.com>

Muchas gracias, Dave!

[txtaz]

Manuel and heeez buddy meester feelter on zee way to tejas...
Poodle, You are a riot. You have to make it to PK so I can harasse you in person.
Taz
PS, The south of the border juice may be having an effect. :shocking:

[txtaz]

Dave, I looked at Rinda's software. For $580, I'll do it in my free time and gain all the knowledge. Plus I get to share it with my Donzi buds. If you would send a connector, I will get to work on the adapter. The hard part, as I mentioned, is to get the specs on writing to the ECM. As Ted said, he tweaked it. Sure would be nice to be able to do it at will. I'm sure I can get the specs. One thing about geeks (hey, I'm one) is they aren't very good at keeping their mouths shut. They like to brag.
Exporting is easy. I prefer to imbed. Meaning you see everything in one program. Why click a button and wait for another program to load?
What I think is cool, is the ability to tune in real time (if it's possible). If not, shut down, tune and run. What better way to tweak a boat?
Let me know what other parameters should be recorded. Actually, someone tell me all parameters to record. I can tweek a puter, but make no claims on tweeking a motor. Although I did build one in my kitchen once. That's how I knew I should marry my wife. LOL
Wes

[txtaz]

BUMP...
Dave you have a PM.
Anyone else have info that would be usuable to build the interface and code/data specs to MEFI-1,2,3 ECM's? There was not much to find on the net.
Thanks, Wes