Looking at small cruisers.

[penbroke]

I'm thinking/looking at small cruisers in the 24-26 foot range. Thinking overnites and long weekends with my wife and two dogs (black labs). Eventually working up to longer (maybe up to a week) trips. This is a grand experiment as my wife is does not have much boating experience so I want to get something practical, comfortable and economical to keep for now at least. (The 18 just doesn't do it for her and no, it's not for sale.)

Around here there are lots of mid to late '80s Sea Ray Sundancers in this size range with 500 or so hours that sell for anywhere from 10-25k. Keep in mind the 5 month season here...

Does anybody have a boat of this size/type that you love/hate or any advice on the subject?? Big block, small block, alpha, bravo, OMC??? I don't need speed, I need economical reliability.

I could realy use some input on this... Feel free to e-mail me if you have something you don't want to say out loud.


Thanks,
Frank

[mphatc]

Frank,

There's alot of boats in this category ....that IMHO are not boats . .but floating houses disguised as boats. As you enjoy a performance hull I suggest taking any boat for a test drive in water conditions that you'll regularly encounter.

Our family barge is a 23.5' Chapparal that serves us well, but it is a much wetter boat that the 18' Donzi! Especially with any quatering waves inspite of the signifigantly greater freeboard. Yet in big water it's an awesome hull for what it is. Solid and great performance, but it handles like crap when backing up!

The biggest down fall with this boat has been the upholstery, it's an 88 and we need to completely redo it! Imagine that all the deck hardware was installed without sealant, and all the interior now has water stains . . .

The Sea Rays were well built, but a survey will be money well invested. Formulas of the same vintage are great boats.

Mario

For a boat of this size, I'd recommend a big block with a Bravo.

[MOP]

Frank two things about Searay, first you have to steal them price wise they are are very to sell just to many around. The other point is somewhere mid 80's they started using regular plywood in their stringers. They are failing survey left and right, I had a friend lost a deal on an 03 50. Call any NAMS or SAMS surveyor they will tell you about the seminars Searay is putting on trying to put out fires with -0- luck when it comes to the surveyors, I think as the word spreads it will be like Rome burning they were on top but will take a big hit in the boating market place.

Phil

[Cuda]

Check out this thread. Boat is still available. I know the owner.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40268

[penbroke]

Thanks for the input guys. I've had trouble getting back in here since my original post.

Mario: BB/Bravo for speed or load pushing reliablity? Everything around here is SB/Alpha, Volvo or OMC. As much as I enjoy the Donzi this boat doesn't need speed. If I can get it on a solid plane that's good enough for now. If the experiment works I'll be looking for something decent in a couple years.

Phil: I know you have said that before about Sea Rays. Dosn't the same issue apply to any simalar boat? Or is it a SR specific thing? I know you have seen a few more than I have. What would you recomend?

Cuda: I thought you were going to pick that one up?? I have an '89 Regal Ambassador 255XL to look at as well as a Four Winns 245 Vista.

There are a lot of Bayliners around here as well. I have heard that the larger boats were better than the smaller ones??? Is there any truth to this? I owner a Bayliner once. I didn't like it. (http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31972) :eek!:

I will have a survey done on anything before I buy it.


Thanks,
Frank
still lookin'...

[Cuda]

I decided not to get it. I think it's a great deal if that's the type boat you're looking for. I had a single screw cruiser once before, and hated the handling. This one is a twin with the V6's so I think it would handle well, and be economical.

[mphatc]

Frank,

BB only to get you away from an Alpha. IMHO the Alpha as a single engine is a bit weak to push such a large boat w/o repairs.

Twin screws are nice for manueverability, but I suspect they're more likely to be found in a climate where the boating season is more that 4-5 months.

Don't forget to look in the Winni region, certain dealers and brands were strong here during the time period you're looking at, and many are FS after the first owner moves on . . and most dealers will be willing to deliver to VT.

Mario

[Sam]

Having owned several cruisers myself I would recomend going a little bigger 28'-30' at a min. A 24-26 ft boat will get very small very fast with two people plus your dogs, just my two cents.

Sam

[gcarter]

I agree with Sam, My smallest suggestion would be 30". Then you may be better off w/ inboards. That sure simplifies things.

[penbroke]

Deep down I know you guys are right about the size thing. But trailerability is a factor as well. If I can trailer it and reduce my dependence in the yard I can save some coin for fuel. If the experiment is sucessfull I will be looking for something larger in a couple years. If the boating resale economy turns to crap it can sit on the trailer in my yard 'till things turn around...

We are looking pretty hard at a well equiped '92 Sea Ray Sundancer 240 at the moment but are still open to ideas...


Frank :anchor:

[Sam]

Try and find a nice 26-27' Sea Ray, there are lot's of them around. Go to Boatquest.com and do a search. From there you can get an idea of price points based on age, options, ect.


Sam

[Cuda]

I agree with Sam, My smallest suggestion would be 30". Then you may be better off w/ inboards. That sure simplifies things.
I think it could get quite tight in a 30 incher. :tongue: :cistineb:

[Jamesbon]

Penbroke,
We have a nice 1991 Sea Ray 280 Weekender with re-built 5.7's (2003 & 2004) and v-drive inboards. She's in pretty good condition and according to the owner, runs great. Being in used boat sales, I've come to like selling any Sea Ray with straight shaft or v-drive inboards. Those damn outdrives usually kill deals during sea trial unless they've been taken care of. (allot of room for failure) She's also "trailerable" with the right set-up. This rig has a HUGE aft deck and moderately sized cabin for a couple of people...and dogs :)

They're asking 25,9 and are open to any reasonable offer. We're priced lower than anybody else out there for a comparable vessel. We strive to get the owners to list their boats lower than the rest, because we want to move them fast, not sit on'em.

I can set you up with a trailer at close to our cost and arrange shipping for around 2 bucks a mile.

Here's a link to "Norm-N-Dee."
http://www2.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&checked_boats=1314824&slim=broker&&hosturl=baywaymarine&&ywo=baywaymarine&

[Formula Jr]

Give us a bit more info on what you want to do with this small cruiser. Range? Trailer, slip or boattel? What is your comfort level? Do you need a full fridge and head with shower and built in galley? Full berths or V-berth? Enclosed pilot station or open cockpit? Do you need a planing hull? Or will a displacement hull also work? Some of the newer pocket cuisers are so badly conceived I have to wonder if the designers were ever on the water. Particularly the newer Bayliner Pockets that look like athethic shoes. . And you have to ask the owner or the dealer "oky, so how do you get to the foredeck?," and "why does this thing have no bulkheads at all?" and "why does the fridge unit not fit through the cabin door?" "Where's the anchor locker?" "Why do all the scuppers run to the bilge?" " Why are these batteries ventilating into the cabin?" and stuff like that. I've seen some real horror shows. Price doesn't seem to matter as to the functionality of the design. There's good designs built badly, and bad designs built well. You have hundreds of designs to consider here. And don't forget your basic house boat/OB if you are in relatively calm water. These barges have their place and they are cheap, cheap, cheap as second homes. An since they are flat, dogs love them.

[JPR]

I think you should look at a 25', 26' or 28' Bertram. If you are used to the ride, speed and solid feel of a Donzi, you will be disappointed by a Sea-ray. There is a very good discussion board at http://www.simplifying.net/cgi-bin/plugins/BBS/bertram25_ubb/Ultimate.cgi?action=introPose your question there and search some old threads. I owned a 25' FBSF with twin 318's it cruised at 30 Knots and was solid and dry in any sea conditions. If you post on the discussion board i am sure one of the "faithful" as we call ourselves would show you their boat and take you for a ride. Good luck

[penbroke]

Jamesbon: Thanks. Looks like a nice boat but I don't see it as being practical for us due to the distance.

JPR: That looks like a very usefull site and I will be spending some time there. I think Bertram's are going to be out of my price range.

Formula Jr.: What I want to do is introduce my wife to spending more than a couple hours at a time on the water. I want to start with overnites and weekends locally and work up to more extended trips. My local lake is 12 miles wide and 120 miles long. The north end connects to the St. Lawerence River and the south end connects to the Hudson River which flows to New York City and the Intercostal Waterway as well as the New York State Canal System and the Great Lakes. As you can see the possabilities are endless. Eventually I can see a 32-36' twin engine Carver, Silverton or the like. I think Bertram or Hatteras would be overkill. What I need now is something that is going to be econimical, practical, reliable, easy to handle for the two of us, and comfortable enough to make it worth while. I expect in a couple years we will move up or move on. Stand up head with a hand shower is a must as well as enough galley to do some cooking. V-berth is OK. Mid cabin is good for storage/dogs. House boats have their place, But not in my yard and I don't much care for the athletic shoes either.

The local Sea Ray dealer has done an excellent job of saturating this area with his product and there are more of them for sale here than all other brands combined. In the price range I'm looking it doesn't make sense to travel too far out of the area.

Sorry for being longwinded but you asked...

Sam: Right now I'm looking at an '86 SR 250 that has been loved and well cared for all it's life and a '92 SR 270 that appears to be in great shape but is not on the market yet. The deal on the 240 is falling apart. Most of the used boats around here are pretty beat or way over priced.

Thanks for everybody's comments and keep 'em comming.
Frank
still looking...

[Formula Jr]

This is a general observation about Mid to Late 80's boats. And of coarse this doesn't apply to anyone's particular pet brand or model....... ;)

In the mid 80s there was a huge demand for powerboats of all kinds. Nearly all makers responded to this by cranking out boats as fast as they could pull them from the molds and slap on the rigging. And that is why to this day there is this a glut of boats from this time frame. This was also an era of consolidation and the rise of what I call the "Corp" boat. "Corp" boats are easy to spot. They all have the same hardware and pretty much the same power packages and shared designs across various brands under the same umbrella. Perko hardware, Talyor Windshields, Merc controls, Alphas and 350 Chevy engines. Most are well designed, but badly constructed. And often underpowered. This is a hard era to find a jewel, and most of those jewels are boats that the owner refitted with better stuff, or at least put backing plates under the hard points and swapped alot of the old hardware for Stainless. And they didn't leave the boat outside to face the hard winters you have. I think you can find a SeaRay that will suit you, you will just have to look at a lot of them. If you look at the 92's and better , you will be better off all around. These will have more bravos in the 24'-26' range and 350 mags. And always give preference to a clean Cobalt, or Formula if in the same price range.
I was just in NYC and was surprised at the sea state of the lower Hudson. There's some big water around there! So a Mid-Vee or a Deep-Vee is a good design to go with.

As are the small sportfishers with twins and direct drives. But those will double or triple easily the price of this experiment........
Good Luck. Don't feel bad if she doesn't take to the water as in enjoying it for an extended time. I think people are born to water, or they are not. It is a thing to ease into and you are being smart about it.

[GEOO]

I owned a 2001 290 Amberjack it was one of the best boat's I've owned. Well thought-out, built well, no real problems. A good friend had an older Sea Ray. The only areas I know to look for issues would be: Wood core or plywood behind and under seats, side panels in cockpet, they can and do rot out. Some boats have leaky engine box/floors and the engine and or components, trim pump etc. rust out.
I had a Bravo III loved the drive ran great for two years, for some reason the third year I had Electrolisis problems. Alphas will work but it is a weak leak in a larger boat. Good Luck. It's great fun traveling and doing overnighters. :beer:

[JPR]

Who says Bertrams are too expensive? If you look around, there are definately some buys out there. Check this one out

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&checked_boats=1322222&slim=quick&

[BaldEagle]

Re cruisers:

I have owned three Sea Rays, 1991 310EC inboard 2 x 250, 1992 400EC v-drive 2 x 350, and 1994 440 SD 2 x Cat 3116TA which we still cruise. I think you will find for a production boat they are a good value. We have found them to be excellant rough water boats and we have cruised Lake MI, Huron, N. Channel extensively from 3-18 days at a time.
Some have had wood problems typically due to inproper sealing of cutouts etc. in the larger ones, as many other manufacturers have had.
I agree there are a lot out there and I think for good reason. There is a big difference in the way boats are maintained and as far as resale goes, the first person that has looked at the two I have sold bought them at my price on the spot because they were very well taken care of. A 27/28 would be trailerable and in the SD sereies offers a good utilization of space. There is a lot out there and depending on where you are boating at the cruise speed my be dependant on sea conditions. You can have most luxury items, microwave, A/C etc on 90s and above vintage and now with inverters a generator isn't a must unless you are out for extended periods. I have always had good luck selling through newspapers.
A survey can tell you if there is any water in the wood.
Good Luck
Jeff

[penbroke]

the '86 Sea Ray Sundancer 250. Passed the survey last friday with flying colors. I was there and he took nearly four hours. I didn't think he would ever finish... He tapped and peeked and poked and prodded and measured and talked and took notes. The only issues he raised were lack of proper battery boxes/hold downs and one of the courtesey lights in the cockpit was out.

She is structurally and mechanically sound and cosmetically in excellent condition. The boat seems well cared for and in very original condition. The '99 Magic Tilt aluminum trailer looks new as well. Power is a 260 HP Mercruiser Alpha One which seemed adaquate for what I intend to use the boat for. I figure if I don't horse it the Alpha will hold up OK. The interior space and layout is about the same as the newer 270s due to the integral swim platform being included in the LOA. The boat is in the water and in use so we know it floats and runs... The first boat we water tested took on a LOT of water during the trial and they still have not found the problem 3 weeks later... I finally told them to send my deposit back. We took her out for a couple hours yesterday and are quite pleased so far. It rained all day today so we went to Worst Marine to pick up a few things...

We looked at a lot of boats and I found the whole process quite irritating. Most of the brokers we dealt with had no idea what they were talking about and have never seen the boats they are showing. I realize they can't be everywhere but I was telling them where some of these boats were located and my job doesn't take me to the boat yards on a daily basis. I pointed out glaring errors in their listings some of which were as obvious as the wrong year. (They were off by 4 years and had priced the boat accordingly.) I suspect in areas with longer boating seasons the situation would be much better. The private sales were even worse. On one boat my wife pointed to a door for a storage compartment in the cockpit and asked "what is in there?" The answer was "Oh, that doesn't open." The dual battery switch was behind the door. I guess it's a good thing nobody ever turned it off...


Frank
Crusin'

[Sam]

Congrat's Frank ! she looks great. I'm sure you going to have a great time with it poking around here and there. Just as an FYI I have a pair of stainless fender holders that I was going to post on E-Bay. Give me a shout if you have any interest. Have fun and enjoy !!!


Sam

[Boatlubber]

Hey Carl;
Check out the new Larson Cabrios. Took one down to the Annapolis BoatShow last week On a rather rough Chesapeake Bay! Nice Ride! Nice weekender. Volvo setup, IO. I think at our dealership if you trade her in within a couple of years you get what you paid as a trade-in value. The Larson 370 is an awesome boat! As a Fiberglass tech, I can tell you first-hand, that Larson is Very behind their product, as am I. Talk to "Little Tom" at AM PM Marine, Great People! Tell him what you are looking for. He will hook you up! I think it's (ampmmarine.com), or call(410) 360-7437 Tell them Mike Dailey sent you! Check out the 274 Cabrio. Full warranty low payments, Excelent trade-In! Come down and seatrial one with the wife! Check out the Larson Website.

[delliott00]

Nice boat. I was really impressed with some of the older sea rays and how well they held up. Even moreso than the more recent sea rays, which to me seemed to be much cheaper feeling. We looked at several older sundancers, and almost made an offer on one (270DA), but the wife wanted a newer boat with a bit more modern interior.

Did you see any Donzi cruisers? We found that they could be had for a really steep market discount given the fact that most cruiser shoppers don't think of Donzi. After comparing them to the big cruiser brands -- Sea Ray, Chap, Four Winns, Rinker etc -- we realized that the Donzi was hard to beat. A similar year 260 Sundancer would have cost at least $10k more and wouldn't be nearly as well equipped. We plan to keep it a long time so resale wasn't as much a factor, but SR's do retain value as well as you could hope for a boat.

Here is ours. Its a '00 Donzi Z275 (29' LOA) with a 454 MPi Bravo 3. Its loaded. It moves pretty well for a cruiser. I've had it up to over 45 mph GPS indicated and it would probably scoot to 50+ mph under the right conditions.

http://attackthecorners.com/DonziB.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/DonziE.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi1.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi4.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi6.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi7.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi8.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi9.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi10.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi11.JPG

Best thing was that we got it for a hair over $30K. We are loving it. It is superbly well made.

Congrats!

-Dave
'00 Donzi Z275 7.4MPi B3 "Sol Searcher"

PS- Sam, can you post details on the fender holders?

[DAULEY]

look at 271 silverton great boat lots of cabin and cockpit space
they were only in the years 1994 1998 i wish i never sold mine

[Itsonlymoney]

Nice boat. I was really impressed with some of the older sea rays and how well they held up. Even moreso than the more recent sea rays, which to me seemed to be much cheaper feeling. We looked at several older sundancers, and almost made an offer on one (270DA), but the wife wanted a newer boat with a bit more modern interior.
Did you see any Donzi cruisers? We found that they could be had for a really steep market discount given the fact that most cruiser shoppers don't think of Donzi. After comparing them to the big cruiser brands -- Sea Ray, Chap, Four Winns, Rinker etc -- we realized that the Donzi was hard to beat. A similar year 260 Sundancer would have cost at least $10k more and wouldn't be nearly as well equipped. We plan to keep it a long time so resale wasn't as much a factor, but SR's do retain value as well as you could hope for a boat.
Here is ours. Its a '00 Donzi Z275 (29' LOA) with a 454 MPi Bravo 3. Its loaded. It moves pretty well for a cruiser. I've had it up to over 45 mph GPS indicated and it would probably scoot to 50+ mph under the right conditions.
http://attackthecorners.com/DonziB.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/DonziE.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi1.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi4.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi6.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi7.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi8.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi9.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi10.JPG
http://attackthecorners.com/Donzi11.JPG
Best thing was that we got it for a hair over $30K. We are loving it. It is superbly well made.
Congrats!
-Dave
'00 Donzi Z275 7.4MPi B3 "Sol Searcher"
PS- Sam, can you post details on the fender holders?

Dave could you E-Mail me at JMFairlane@aol.com I have a 1996 275 Medallion