Sailboat selection

[TuxedoPk]

I'm at the point where I can use some guidance narrowing down the short list of models for my first sailboat. Being able to easily single hand the boat is a must, as is the ability to comfortably day sail w/ 5 others on board. I'm interested in a well built boat that will hold its value, and offer a blend between cruising comfort and performance.

The short list is currently:
Pearson 26, PY26
C&C 27, Tartan 27
Cape Dory 28, Sabre 28
C&C 30 Redwing , Pearson 30, Tartan 30

[Chili 18]

The O'day Outlaw is a great solid vintage boat. Not too many around. Anything designed by phil rhodes is going to be a good choice. They aren't new thou...

http://www.sailboatowners.com/boats/model.tpl?sku=30999364975883&fno=60&bts=T

[TBroccoli]

SAILBOAT!!! Isn't that a dirty word? I hope there isn't much experience coming from this group. Buy a hammock and a fan.

[Formula Jr]

Are you trailering?

[Formula Jr]

Most modern designs don't sail in a traditional way. In the seventies most designes went to high aspect configurations. These have small main sails and huge jibs. More traditional boats have large main sails and small jibs.
The high aspect boats never balance: You always have to tend to the tiller to keep them from heading into the wind. Traditional boats, well designed ones, will balance and you can even take you hand off the tiller. You will find the older designs to be very narrow. The new ones are wide and have a great deal of cabin space.

[TuxedoPk]

I'm thinking that this boat will stay at the marina in the water during the season and up on blocks during the winter.

I'm looking to spend $20k so at lot of newer boats would exceed the limit.

TBROC- You'd be surprised how many board members from Harbormaster and MOP on down were into sailing. I had a great time at Lake George running on Cliff's 16 in the morning and early afternoon and then spending 2 hours single handing a Tanzer 22' before the ride home.

[mattyboy]

Tux
all weekend around power wasn't enuff to turn u to the darkside??
you might want to check out the
south shore marina in the jersey end of greenwood lake basically a sailboat only marina sure they have something for sale

[TuxedoPk]

Matty- Sailboat's don't need carbs :lookaroun

Their web site doesn't show what their brokerage inventory is but I'll stop down either tomorrow or Wednesday. I'll use it as an opportunity to take the kids out for their first sailboat ride with one of their 1/2 day rentals.

[Last Tango]

S2 7.9
J30
Tarten Ten

Fast, stable boats with room for folks on deck, in the cockpit, and below. All at very reasonable prices these days.

[TuxedoPk]

Mark- I thought the Tartan 10 had a spartan interior and low headroom. Is this not the case?

J30s- I've sailed the J/24s but thought the Js were more racing oriented rather than set up for cruising. How much truth is there to this?

S2 7.9- I had eliminated this from my search after reading practical sailor's comments that it was better suited to racing than cruising. Actually, I based alot of my original research on their comments and then started trimming the list from there.

Yes, all 3 definately have reasonable prices.

LOL- OK, I'm trying to TRIM the list down, not add more boats :) I'm anxious to get to the part where I get to hoist the sails not look at them anymore on my monitor.

[Last Tango]

I don't really have any particular problem with ANY of the boats on your short list. They are all good boats to consider. I just wanted to make sure you considered everything. I have sailed, raced, and cruised for 33 years now. The boats I have suggested all have strong national organizations with lots of folks and "support groups" (i.e. fleets) with lots of experience. They have websites just like this one.

S2 7.9 - excellent for speed, plenty of room below deck to overnight, and a daggerboard keel for shallow water and easy trailering.

Tartan 10 - short on headroom for sure, but long on deck space and cockpit which is REALLY where everyone wants to be anyway. Nobody stays below decks when a sailboat is underway. And when they do go below it is to do one of four things (1) bring more food, drinks, sails, gear, to the topside, (2) sit out of the sun for a bit (3) use the potty (4) take a nap. No one goes below to stand around there.

J30 - best cruiser in the group, but a deep fixed keel. Enclosed head.

Huge difference between a Pearson 26 and a Pearson 30. You need to decide if you are inboard diesel or kicker. Pearson 26 is nice but cramped as well. A 28 foot anything will out comfort a 26 anything. And a 30 is downright huge compard to a 26 or 27 footer.
C & C makes beautiful boats with excellent hardware. Unfortunately most get beat to death by the first and second owners because they think they bought a race boat with luxury below. I have owned a C&C 24, 32, and 38. Now I own none of the above.

My next sailboat? A nice well-used but well-cared-for Capri 25 or another Tarten 10. For me and my crew, it is all about deck and cockpit space, a shelter, and a porta-potty for emergencies and the ladies. Race-bred boats have much better ground tackle and are more stable when the weather turns against you.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong. Your selections are good boats as well. From your list I would absolutely pick the Sabre 28.
http://www.boatus.com/jackhornor/sail/Sabre28.htm

[TuxedoPk]

Mark- Thanks for putting going below deck into perspective for me. It makes sense.

I had read that article in my research. A great link.

Would you go with the Tarten 30 or Tarten Ten over the Sabre 28? I've been going back and forth with the Sabre/Tarten/C&C as the revised short list and then reading or seeing another boat and going back to my full short list again. For someone new to all this it is definately a bit overwhelming.

I really appreciate your comments and help- thanks.

[harbormaster]

Rich,'

I have always been a fan of Catalina's.

The Catalina 30 is very nice. the 36 is even nicer.

The small cape dories are cool. The have a HUGE cabin. I heard of a guy who sailed a 25 around the world.

[TuxedoPk]

LOL- I've drooled over the Cat 36 on MOP's web site but it's out of my price range.
http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&checked_boats=1131169&slim=broker&&hosturl=taberyacht&&ywo=taberyacht&

[Last Tango]

Tux,
What water will you be sailing in mostly? A large lake? A long river? Open ocean? Hudson River/East River? Long Island Sound? This will help me to help you a little more with your decision. Catalinas are nice inshore boats. Cape Dory's are excellent offshore boats. Both are slow. Rough chop and heavy seas from time to time (could be anything from huge wakes chopping up the water to long fetches in the wind)?
Sabre 28 is capable boat in all of those conditions and a nice ride. Not a slug in light air either when properly helmed and sheeted. Tartan 10 is a racing boat with room to party. Tartan 30 is a cruising boat with room to party.
Let's put it in CAR terms:
Tartan 10 = Porsche 911
Sabre 28 = BMW 5-series
C&C 27 = BMW 3-series (but not the M3)
Pearson = a nice older Mercedes E-Class

A long time ago a fun add I saw for JBoats read, "If Porsche built sailboats, it would be a J24."
And the J30 is like a Porsche 928.

My personal dream sailboat is the Baltic 38 DP. I'm working on that thought...
http://www.marinesource.com/buyerslistings/presentation.cfm?ListingNmb=770007146&StartRow=1&PwrSail=&BoatTypeDe=&Manufactur=&MinLoaFt=0&MaxLoaFt=0&MinModelYr=0&MaxModelYr=0&MaterialDe=&FuelTypeDe=&Price=&YtLocState=

[Marlin275]

Tux
south shore marina in the jersey end of greenwood lake basically a sailboat only marina sure they have something for sale

Tux, Matty is right, check out South Shore Marina, they have lots of sail,
for rent and sale.
Look for a day with wind as its narrow down there.
I used to rent sailboats there before the Donzi fever hit.

http://www.southshoremarina.com/

[TuxedoPk]

I'm waiting to hear if my nephews can go sailing today- if they can I'll be taking them over and renting from South Shore.

Mark- I expect to be doing most of my sailing on the Hudson River down thru the New York harbor and around Manhattan. Once I become a better sailor I'm hoping that I'll take trips to the LI sound and the Northern part of the Jersey Shore.

That Baltic definately has appeal! If you find yourself with one in a moment of weakness I'll be happy to crew for you :)

So using your car analogy, would that make the Tartan 30 a BMW 740? As you move more towards a racer than cruiser are you giving up ride comfort (more healing) or just less added weight ammenities to gain the extra speed?

[Last Tango]

Beamy boats are both more comfortable and "stiffer" (less heel). Race boats with narrow beams are fast is light air, but use heel to increase the wetted surface for more speed. Works the same for power and sail - more waterline, more potential speed. Beamy race boats already have the wetted surface so they, too, can be stiffer (less heel). Heel spills off the air and slows the boat. The keel design determines how much heel the boat will have. Winged keels are used to increase the polar moment below the surface without increasing the draft.
Blade keels seem to point better in most conditions but draw more water.
S2 7.9 Dagger-board can be raised or lowered or in-between while under way. Tartan 10 blade keel retracts solely for trailering purposes. I had a C&C 38 with a combination keel. Fixed blade with a retractable center blade. Added 4 feet to the blade when fully down. Nice for upwind close-hauled in big air, and when retracted it was less drag down-wind in light air. It also had a folding prop and light air sails that looked like they came from the loft of Victoria's Secret.
Boats in the size range you are talking about will all be single spreaders. A blade keel and good beam are important for the waters you will be cruising.
Sabre 28 has awesome resale value. All sailors know what a Sabre 28 is. Some may look quizzically at the PY's.
C&C 30 and Tartan 30 share a lot of the same design and equipment. Like a Porsche Cayenne S and a VW Touareg.

[Lenny]

C&C 30, 27 if that is where the price is at. Fast boats, but can still eat lunch in it. wide beam, fast hull, tons of support groups.

Why yes, I did sail a lot as a kid, (young adult) only I prefer pitch-polling them, and hovering in the grey area at about 55 degrees of heel and wondering which way it is going to go. :D

I was a wet-suit sailer.

[Last Tango]

I'm only going to soil the path one more time:
Newport 28
http://webhost.sailnet.com/newport/new28specs.html
http://webhost.sailnet.com/newport/n28ownerreview.html
http://www.practical-sailor.com/pub/1_1/boatreview/1215-1.html

[DONZI]

Hey Tux,
A co- worker has a 28 Sabre for sale. Give him a shout at 508- 378- 7928 John Gardner for details.

[Formula Jr]

Mucking up the waters even more:
My personal favorite sailboat:

[TuxedoPk]

Ken- I spoke to John at length today and he filled me in on the boat. It's a 1976 with a gas engine. While I would have preferred a more loaded boat w/diesel, John's willing to accept a reasonable offer so this is worth consideration. Thanks for the heads up. The boat is in East Bridgewater- Is that near your office?

Owen- What type of boat is that?

Mark- Thanks for the detailed reply. Being new to sailing it's going to take me a day to comprehend some of the unfamiliar terms in your post. I'll be sure to learn in the process.

[Lenny]

Tux, I believe that is an Alberg...

[Formula Jr]

Its a Philip Rhodes Swiftsure 32, most call it a 33, made by Seafarer.
They were made in the early sixties.
Gentlemen, lets rememeber that this is Tux's "first" sailboat and he wants to single hand. I don't think the design matters too much at that point. and I think he is thinking to large as a first sailboat. What matters is if its got self furling sails, shallow draft, retracting centerboard, good close haul capabilities for the Hudson and a tiller so he can feel the feed back. One step at a time.

[TuxedoPk]

Owen-Everything I've read about learning to sail supports your suggestion of a small tiller boat. I've been looking unsuccessfully for a small dinghy with a main/jib to keep on the lake where I live to develop those skills. For the larger boat I want something along the lines of the boats we've been discussing. I've only been finding newer Catalina's in the $3500-$4000 range which is big overkill for my purposes.

Self furling sails- I learned to sail with a halyard and hanks on the genoa and got to experience a furling jib on the 22' Tanzer at Lake George. Without a doubt this is a requirement. On the mainsail would you go with a standard setup, a Dutchman flaking system (I haven't had the opportunity to use one yet) or a roller system? Most of the boats I've been looking at have the jib roller and a standard main, one had a Dutchman.

Gas v. Diesel- This one has got me. It seems like most of the Sabre's have diesel and gas is looked down upon. Why is this such a big deal with blow boaters when they are only running their engines for a short time and at 1/2 throttle to reach hull speed?

[Formula Jr]

Get Hunter 27.....then figure it out. :bonk:

[DONZI]

Ken- Thanks for the heads up. The boat is in East Bridgewater- Is that near your office?



Yes, Next town over.