Need advice on 20' Bertram Baron re-power

[JPR]

I have purchased a 20' Bertram Baron. I want to go 65 to 70 MPH. The original set up was a Holman-Moody 289 with a Volvo 250 leg. I'm thinking Volvo 350, 320MPI with a Volvo leg. Any thoughts?

[Morgan's Cloud]

Good choice ...

I can't say it will give you 70 but you'll be up there for sure ..

One of my friends has a 20 sportsman that he dropped a 454 DP in and I've been told that at any speed over high 50's/low 60's he can only go in a straight line.

DP units are nice but not really necessary in small boats IMO.
Do you mean the SX unit ?

That's a rare little boat. Take your time and do it right :cool!:

Steve

[Mac]

6.2 sounds like a good package for that boat, though they get a real premium for it, if top speed was not so important I would look at a regular MPI 5.7L. I will soon be embarking on a similar project though with a 24' Bertram Moppie, right now I am leaning towards the 300HP Horizon Mercrury with a Bravo 1.

[BERTRAM BOY]

I beleive a 6.2/ Bravo combo in a 18 Classic will run mid to high 60's if I'm not mistaken.
The 20' Bertram Baron's listed weight is actuall 2500Lbs. Lighter, beleive it or not than the 18 classic by 200lbs.
The hull configurations seem to be similar ( rounded keel, and short stakes).
If the listed weight is correct, I don't see why it wouldn't at least go mid-60's.
Does the transom need to be rebuilt? If it does, why not go with Merc setup?

I love Volvos too, but it's just plain easier having a Mercruiser. Parts,props,service, etc.

Hope this helps. Did you get the boat yet?

BERTRAM BOY

[Dave911]

My 1972 18' Sutphen Gran Sport has a similar package...an AQ311 Volvo / Penta, with a 320hp SBC with a Volvo 290 drive. She can get over 65mph in the right conditions. Boy, the Volvo's hold up nice and shift buttery smooth!

[JPR]

Have not recieved the boat yet - I'm getting pretty frustrated by the hauler - I thought I'd save a few $$ but now I'm regretting my decision to go with a boat mover instead of a standard flatdeck company. Live and learn.


Thanks for the thoughts on the re-power. We have a pretty good Volvo dealer network here in the greater vancouver area, so I'm not too worried about parts. I am interested to hear the comments re: the DP vs. the SX I'm leaning to the SX because of simplicity, getting the prop right, and it is such a small boat that I thought the DP would be overkill and add drag. I don't know enough about the relative merits of the two systems to make an informed choice - thats why I'm relying on you guys!

[Morgan's Cloud]

Don't worry, you'll have no regrets about owning a Volvo, no matter where you are !

The DP unit is overkill I feel (on small boats) because of it's stern lifting abilities. Normally this performance trait is'nt required on boats under 22' or so with single engine installations .

I've run a B3 setup for a few years and plan on putting the 5.7GSi/SX in the St T when completed.

If Dave911 can get 65+ with the 290 drive you might do the same or better with the slipperier SX

Don't forget to show us pictures when you can ..

Steve

[JPR]

Thanks, steve I really appreciate the perspective, it's always nice to hear a rational explanation to back up a hunch. For comparitive purposes, what would you expect to pay for the 320 mpi with the sx leg as a package? I want to at least start with a benchmark.

[Morgan's Cloud]

Using what I would pay for here as a comparison is not really fair ... I mean, we're talking about the land of $6 gallon gas and One million dollar 'starter' homes .... :mad:

The quote I got on the 280HP 5,7GSi/SX nearly 3 years ago (had to budget for somethng) was $16400 on the floor of the mechanics shop.
My guess is that now it's at least $2000 more .... I'm almost afraid to ask !

Of course the 320GXi would be even a bit more

Incidentally My figures are always in US $ ..

Steve

[BERTRAM BOY]

No doubt that Volvo's are great drives. I had one on my 18 Barrelback....a 290 no less, power trim is very cool.
I just kept beating my head against a wall to find performance props.....Maybe you can get one from Big Grizzly.

[EricG]

Have not recieved the boat yet - I'm getting pretty frustrated by the hauler - I thought I'd save a few $$ but now I'm regretting my decision to go with a boat mover instead of a standard flatdeck company. Live and learn.

I can't help you with your repower, but once you get her going, make sure you bring her to one of our PNW Donzi gatherings (a Bertram would be a nice addition). One of our favorite activities is bitching about our wonderful boat shipping experiences...apparently boats are still shipped here via wagon train. :D :D

Post pics when you get her....

EG

[JPR]

Thanks eric, keep me posted about the PNW Donzi event, I would love to make it to one, thanks for the encouragement.

[Dave911]

...I just kept beating my head against a wall to find performance props (for a Volvo 290)....

Call Hill propellers in Santa Ana CA. They made a beauty for me!

[BERTRAM BOY]

I had a Hill prop for my Volvo. All they had available were large round ear props that caused the boat to chine walk uncontrolably.
Guy's, I'm not trying to talk down Vovlo's. They make a GREAT product. but the fact is, there are MANY more sources for props on a Mercruiser than a Volvo. You may not find that "perfect prop" (because there really is no such thing), but you can find something pretty damn close.

Mercury, Hydromotive, Mazco, Stilletto, and a whole host of others make props for Merc.

If you want to fine tune your Volvo, you'll have a harder time finding different props to try.


BERTRAM BOY

[JPR]

Good comments on the prop issue - worth taking into consideration, for sure.

I am trying to avoid going to a big block as I've heard that the barons are a little stern heavy, so who needs the extra 200 lbs right at the back? If I were to go the merc route what package would be right? I'm not sure that 300 hp out of the small block is enough - am I missing something that is available?

[BERTRAM BOY]

The Mercruiser 6.2 MPI is 320 h.p.

[JPR]

Me again, I've been doing some more homework on the 'net and I think I've answered my own question - the 6.2 weighs less than the volvo5.7GXi. So any other quantifiable differences? Fuel consumption, smoothness, performance at idle - certainly the prop issue is a big one. I haven't got pricing on both yet, but that may also be a differentiating factor. Any opinions and observations are of great interset. Thanks

[Dave911]

No chine-walk here. And yep, I've got a large round ear prop. What shape (or number of blades) would be better? I've got adequate acceleration for slalom skiers, good running attitude, and she revs out to 5,200rpm.
Anyway, back in 1989, I got into the Volvo package cuz it seemed to be the strongest small block package on the market. Didn't want the Merc 350 / 260hp motor every squid on the block had. And not much was beating me on the CT river back then.
Nowawdays Merc has some really solid small-block offerings, and I'd probably lean that direction. Just saying that the 290 leg has been awesome and completely trouble free for 15 years.

[Morgan's Cloud]

Don't worry about the prop issue... As MP pointed out , I too read somewhere not too long ago, that there was an adaptor that made the full range of MERC props (and who knows what else) available to fit on the SX drive. I will certainly be looking into this sometime in the future :biggrin:

I'm also sure that I read an interesting thread .. maybe on that 'other' site that the 6.2 Merc was being dropped due to many technical problems (some major valve train problem I believe) and also high price.
Can't understand why it would be lighter than other 350 offerings when that's what it starts life out as .


Incidentally,, Dave911 that's one damn cool little boat. I guess Sutphen makes nothing anywhere near that small now.
The legendary Sutphen build quality is in evidence even on the little ones ? :biggrin:

Steve

[JPR]

I had not heard about an adaptor for the props. I would be interested in hearing more about any technical problems with the 6.2 - it might be worth starting a thread on that. The weights were just taken from websites and the difference was only about 40 lbs. The fact that the boat is pretty oroginal and started life with a volvo leg has me leaning in that direction, but I'm either indecisive or open minded because I'm still looking at all angles - thanks for the input it is really important to me - the quality of a decision is always related to the quality and intensity of the debate that went into making it.

[Morgan's Cloud]

Bear in mind that the transom cutout for your existing package is no longer the same as the 'new' Volvo Pattern.
A few years back Volvo standardised their transom hole to match the Merc cutout.. a move probably designed to give someone doing a repower more options.
I would hate to wish it on you but it is highly likely that the transom on that boat could be 'wet' after all these years to say the least. Who knows .. ya may get lucky ! At any rate , you'll have to fill the existing hole to do your re-power ... unless you can find 'brand new' 25 year old parts :wink:

I think that there at least 2 members here who have the Merc ' Scorpion' package in their boats. I don't, however, recall any discussions about them having the problems that were discussed over at that other place.

Steve

[Dave911]

[QUOTE=Incidentally,, Dave911 that's one damn cool little boat. I guess Sutphen makes nothing anywhere near that small now.
The legendary Sutphen build quality is in evidence even on the little ones ? :biggrin:

Steve[/QUOTE]

Steve - Thanks for the compliment! Sutphen does crank out smaller boats, ranging from 20 to 26 feet, out of the New Jersey office.

http://www.sutphenboats.com

FYI - I'm selling my 18 Sutphen to buy a 26 Sutphen twin OB...

[Mac]

Saw this in a local swap sheet today,


26' SUTPHEN PWR BOAT, 1984. Custom gel coat. Hull in vy gd cond. Always trlred, no bottom paint. Twin 2002 Mercury counter-rotated 200hp OB's w/less than 100 hrs. S/steel Chopper props, hydraulic race steering, Kiekhaefer tabs, Gill offshore brackets, race bolsters, V-berth in cuddy cabin. Steering hoses & control cables replaced in 2002. Boatmaster alum tandem axle trlr w/disc brakes. Brakes & bearings recently replaced. Depth finder. Asking $17,995; (Georgetown) 978-352-2510 y

[JPR]

I have the opportunity to buy a Volvo duoprop for about $700 less than an SX ( both with the 350 320 hp mpi) Is the duoprop a big negative for performance on a smaller lighter boat. I am concerned about trying to prop it correctly. Any thoughts?

[Morgan's Cloud]

As far as performance +'s or -'s ... I guess you won't know untill you actually run it .. but it is common knowledge that the twin prop units provide a good bit of stern lift that you won't need. If it is the 'new' dp package that you're talking about ... at least the units are interchangeable with the same transom assembly .. so if it runs in a most undesireable way , you always have the option of switching back to the SX unit.

In terms of a bargain being had .. that is a $700 incentive at this point.. If it were me I would'nt let it affect my original decision too much. In the big picture $700 is not a whole lot when you think of what you're getting yourself involved with here.
Lets assume the transom needs work besides just sealing the old cutout.The whole project could cost .... I don't know.. say $16000 .

$700 aint a huge part of that figure to end up with a drive that may not unleash the performance characteristics of the boat that you're looking for ..

Just my thoughts ..... NOT trying to influence you in any way .. after all it is YOUR money :biggrin.:

Steve

[JPR]

Thanks for the words Steve, I agree that 700 is not that substantial, but I guess the Scots heritage is tough to shake off. I've pretty much decided on the SX, so I guess thats how I'll go. FYI, my package is going to come in around $16,000 Canadian, so about 13,000 USD.

[mrfixxall]

377 scorpion pkg rocks................

[20Baron]

I powered my 20 Baron with a 454/TRS in 1985. Lots of stern squat but ample power. I'm looking to repower soon and will be looking at a small block with about 350HP.

[Just Say N20]

Another engine to consider is the Crusader 6.2. We use them in some of our boats, rated at 375 hp. When the Crusader guys come in, they compare it to the 6.2 Mercruiser. Even if you take the "my stuff is better than yours" factor our, it is an impressive package.

[JPR]

20Baron - what sort of performance are you getting out of your baron? What does the 454 put out for HP? By stern squat, do you mean at rest or running attitude? What does the 454 TRS weigh?

Thanks for the comments N20, I will look into the crusader as well.

The boat will be arriving at the end of next week, so it is time I started making some decisions.

[20Baron]

JPR

Basic 454 pushing about 350HP. Was running about 65 MPH with surface prop and 4" thru-hull pipes. Currently using the boat for dual purposes i.e. wake boarding, skiing and tubing for kids and cruising with wife.
Squat is only at idle although all that weight, about 900 lbs, sends back wash over the engine hatch unless I put trim tabs down prior to backing off on the throttle.
You'll love the hull, nice soft ride in 3ft seas. I recommend keeping the engine weight as low as possible while retaining power.

What color is your boat?

[JPR]

Thanks for the info, I've been thinking the Volvo GXi SX (320 HP, 1031 lbs). The boat is Red and I'll be using for skiing and tubing as well, but also need a good sea boat for the 45 mile run to the cottage on Vancouver Island. I'm hoping for it to be a 1 hour trip in most weather.


By 900 pounds, do you mean just the motor, or the drive, transom sheild as well - seems light compared to the small block which I expected to be lighter than your set-up.

[20Baron]

I thought that was the weight of the 454 without TRS and velvet drive. I could be wrong on this number. Maybe someone else knows the weight for the entire package.

[Just Say N20]

Correction/update. I just spent 3 days working a Tiara Rendevous in Newport Beach, RI. The Crusader guy weas there, and I asked him about what they had for a stern drive, repower project. He said their 6.0 is actually the high output engine at 375 hp, but it won't mount to a stern drive.

However, they have a 5.7 engine that is compatible with stern drives, and is 330 hp. It requires the use of your exhaust manifolds, but is equiped with an intake manifold and carb. They found the durability was much better when they supplied the fuel system. That way, people weren't buying a short block, running it too lean (better hp, shorter life) and toasting the engine.

Sorry about the earlier mis-information.

[BUIZILLA]

I think the Crusader combo is the 6.2, not the 6.0... different family's...

JH

[BERTRAM BOY]

http://www.crusaderengines.com/60.html

[BUIZILLA]

ooooopp's
fergot 'bout dat one :jestera:

actually, we WERE talking sterndrive repower's right? that's for an inboard...

[Mac]

Check this out, 100 large for a 20, unreal. http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&checked_boats=1400549&slim=quick&

[sparepartz]

how bout this one- get a more standard package like a 350 mag or the volvo equiv. throw on a procharger and maybe exhuast you will hit 70 or get real close. the weight will be down and it will look wicked cool at the dock ot the sand bar. just my 2c.