Turbo 1 vs Mirage Plus

[blackhawk]

Okay, after hours(literally) of searching this forum I'm down to these two choices for the new ride. My question is what are the characteristics of these two props? Bow lift, acceleration, "looseness", etc, etc.

[Sam]

Personally I never liked the way the Mirage acted on my boat................fast but very squirrely at high speeds. On the other hand the Turbo was just as fast but was much more stable at high speeds. The only way for you to get the right prop is to try as many as you can in all conditions, there are no short cuts.

Sam

[blackhawk]

I agree you should test as much as you can. But, from everything I have read these are the two props that will work the best on my boat. So, I am looking for the "characteristics" of both.

[Sam]

That's the point you won't know untill you try them. Before Jamie Root and I did our mods our boats were basicly the same. We tried the same props but had different results.........go figure. I have a 22" Turbo that you can try, not sure if that will be enough pitch for you though, let me know. If I had to choose between the two with out testing I would go for the Turbo. Check Ebay I see em on there all the time.

[blackhawk]

I'm leaning toward the Turbo myself. Everything I have heard and read says it's a higher quality prop and has better handling with the same speed as a Mirage Plus. Thanks for the offer on the prop but I need a little more pitch.

[Sam]

You need to drag that bad boy down to AOTH, there are always lot's of props to try. If your going to buy new the best price I found was from a guy called Dan's Propellers dansdiscountprops.com.

Sam

[Sam]

That's what makes this country so great......................choices.

Sam

[DonCig]

I will have the following props at the AOTH. Most of them will be for sale at the event.

Hydromotive Quad 1V
RH 1" Propshaft
27P
26P - two props
25P
24P

Mirage Plus
25P Labbed by Mercury

Precision
Turbo 1
26P

I have a 1:65 drive ratio if any one is wondering about the pitch range.

DonCig

[Sam]

I would love to try the 24", I'll look you up.

THX
Sam

[blackhawk]

Dan's prices can be beat....


Why do I know that?? :D :D :D

Yep, already talked to Dan about a Turbo 1. Definitely a great price if I buy new!

[ChromeGorilla]

OK that 26P Turbo 1 is it for sale? Is it new or used. If so how much, I am interested.

[DonCig]

Nothing is for sale until the AOTH. I have some testing to do in May before the event and then the non needed inventory goes up for sale.

DonCig

[ChromeGorilla]

I won't be at AOTH but I am salavating at the 26P Turbo1. If it is not the prop for you please let me know, no need to wait till AOTH.

[Sea Biscuit]

Scott
i've run a turbo 24 on my 16, two things i didn't like was porposing sp at slow speeds (no tabs) and it was loose at wot. in an attempt to correct these two issues i bought a hydromotive quad4x 23pitch 15-1/4dia.(4blade), it corrected the porposing but lost 1-2 mph and would cavitated on hard excels and turns. i returned this one and they are replacing it with a quad4 24pitch 14-3/4 dia. claiming this will correct the cavitation and speed lost. oh, the hydro was very stable at all speeds. i'll let you know how the reworked hydro works when i get it back.

Lee

[Sam]

Scott, like Lee and a few others ( Rootsy,Ranman,Doug Luvins) I currently run a Hydromotive 23" OT (14.75dia). I went to this prop due to switching to an Alpha SS drive, I needed the extra bite and stabilty this prop offered. Check with Randy Oak AKA Ranman, he has run the Mirage and Hydro on his 18/bravo combo, the last I heard he was still running the Hydro. Like most others he found the Mirage to be very lose at high speeds and less forgiving in slopy water. If you do look into the Hydromotive (www.hydromotive.com), I would sugest that you call Julie at Throttle Up Propellers (www.throttle-up.com) and talk with her. She knows what she is talking about and they are very good to work with.

Good Luck
Sam

[Rootsy]

the hydromotive 4 blades are SO stable on my 16 setup that i can run 65 - 70 mph and take my hands off the wheel without a worry on flat or choppy water... she just flies straight... Sam has seen it first hand...

JR

[blackhawk]

Thanks for all the responses! I know Randy liked the hydro better than the mirage, but I don't know if he tried the turbo. Maybe he will chime in. My boat doesn't have tabs, but it doesn't porpoise at any speeds at all. In fact, it rides too flat. That is why I don't think I'll need the hydro. It's stable as can be in all water conditions. Which is why I figured the mirage or turbo would work. If anything, I want to loosen her up a little! Loose is fast! :D

[boldts]

Scott,

Just wondering what Donzi model your wanting to run these props on? Last I knew and from your upper image, you had a BlackHawk 22. Do you still have a 22 Classic or a smaller one?

Just an added note, you can get the Turbo in any pitch you want or need in 1" increments. So Chrome, order a 26 if that's what you need and sell what-ever you have to off-set the cost a little.

I can't comment on the Mirage + - Turbo1 comparison since I never ran a Mirage + on my 22. Mine came with a Mirage 23". Boat porposed like all get out at all speeds until WOT. Didn't matter what the trim was set at either as more experienced boat drivers than I also drove the boat with the same results. The Turbo1 has less diameter than the Mirage so I ordered a 23" Turbo1 for my 22. Once prop arrived and tested, I found RPMs to still be lower than the Mirage, but speed was virtually the same at 65. Traded the 23" for a 22" Turbo1 and RPMs rose to 4800 at 68 mph. Boat lost all the mishandling and was a joy to drive! Cheapest and best improvement I made to that boat. Boat was running a carbed 454 MAG with a Bravo1. Only difference was because the boat had a ProCharger engine before my purchase, it had a lower number drive gear also. Not the 1.5:1 that is stock on most boats, but the 1.36:1. Thus, the reason for a 22" pitch vs the normal 25 or more run with the 1.5:1.

Later added a Hydromotive nose cone. (Wedge type vs pointed type) gained another 1.9 mph at 4950 RPMs. Cost, about the same as the Turbo1 prop professionally installed.

[blackhawk]

Anyone have a 25 turbo 1 hubbed for a Volvo SX 19 spline?

[Ranman]

I tried a Turbo 1 at AOTH. Actually I tried a couple of Precision's offerings (Turbo, Lightening, etc). The Turbo was the best. On the 18 I could not discren much difference between the Turbo and my Mirage+. If anythihg I would say the Turbo was a tad more stable, but the difference wasn't obvious. The prop felt alot like the Mirage+. I didn't have my Mirage+ at the time to test back to back speed differences, but the turbo was at least as fast.

There is a dramatic difference between the Hydro and the Mirage+/Turbo Props.

As a side note, I prefer the Hydromotive QIV on Laks St. Clair because of the confused choppy waters and numerous boat wakes you have to contend with. It is 3-4 mph slower on top though. I can hit 70.X on the Mirage+ and only 66-67 on the Hydro.

If I were on an inland lake that is mostly calm and speed is my biggest priority, I would go with a M+ or Turbo. The Turbo is prolly a beter choice since they're cheaper and typically will need no extra work (labbing). BTW, my M+ is labbed, the Turbo I tried was out of the box and seemed just as fast.

[Fish boy]

That's the point you won't know untill you try them. Before Jamie Root and I did our mods our boats were basicly the same. We tried the same props but had different results.........go figure. I have a 22" Turbo that you can try, not sure if that will be enough pitch for you though, let me know. If I had to choose between the two with out testing I would go for the Turbo. Check Ebay I see em on there all the time.

Sam, are you looking to sell your turbo 22? is it a 14 1/2 x 22?

fish

[blackhawk]

I tried a Turbo 1 at AOTH. Actually I tried a couple of Precision's offerings (Turbo, Lightening, etc). The Turbo was the best. On the 18 I could not discren much difference between the Turbo and my Mirage+. If anythihg I would say the Turbo was a tad more stable, but the difference wasn't obvious. The prop felt alot like the Mirage+. I didn't have my Mirage+ at the time to test back to back speed differences, but the turbo was at least as fast.

There is a dramatic difference between the Hydro and the Mirage+/Turbo Props.

As a side note, I prefer the Hydromotive QIV on Laks St. Clair because of the confused choppy waters and numerous boat wakes you have to contend with. It is 3-4 mph slower on top though. I can hit 70.X on the Mirage+ and only 66-67 on the Hydro.

If I were on an inland lake that is mostly calm and speed is my biggest priority, I would go with a M+ or Turbo. The Turbo is prolly a beter choice since they're cheaper and typically will need no extra work (labbing). BTW, my M+ is labbed, the Turbo I tried was out of the box and seemed just as fast.


Thanks Randy. I currently have a Viper(stock) prop on the boat and it has very little bow lift. That's why I am thinking a Turbo 1 or Mirage + would work well on my boat.

[Ranman]

I don't know anything about a Viper. Some Donzis with Merc setups in the mid to late 90 were shipped with Merc's Vengeance prop. Anyway, I would think fo rwhat you want to do, your best bet would be to go with the Turbo.

[blackhawk]

boldts, the blackhawk is gone. :(

Madpoodle, yes a Cobra SX drive.

Randy, I am thinking the Turbo as well. It sounds like the Turbo gives good bow lift and loosens the boat up a little but is more stable than the Mirage. I'm sure I'll end up trying them both, but if I lay down the coin for one to get started I want to get close.

[blackhawk]

Madpoodle, night and day? Tell me more! Speed, bow lift, speed, handling, speed, acceleration, did I mention speed? :D

[Fish boy]

Dnno if there is any interest but I came across this today.

23P Mirage (not sure is it is a Plus or not), $150.

23P mirage (http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70551)

[blackhawk]

Dnno if there is any interest but I came across this today.

23P Mirage (not sure is it is a Plus or not), $150.

23P mirage (http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70551)

Thanks. Unfortunately I need a 25. I got outbid in the the last 5 seconds on Ebay for one last night. :banghead: Searched the net this weekend and only found a few Turbo 1, Mirage Plus and Laser II props.

Anyone have a 25 Mirage Plus they would be willing to let me try?

[RedDog]

Thanks. Unfortunately I need a 25. I got outbid in the the last 5 seconds on Ebay for one last night. :banghead: Searched the net this weekend and only found a few Turbo 1, Mirage Plus and Laser II props.

Anyone have a 25 Mirage Plus they would be willing to let me try?

I'll have one at AOTH if you'll be there.

[boldts]

All of you attending the Awakening of the Horses V gathering, Precision Propellers (Turbo) will be attending this year and ready to help you with your prop needs. You will be able to test a prop of choice on your Donzi while your there. Steve McLelland is the man from Turbo who will be there and he is arriving on Wednesday the 18th. So, those of you coming early can hook up with him and do some testing before the gathering kicks off.

Blackhawk, if you like and your not attending this year, give me the prop you want and pitch. Turbo usually cuts us a deal at the gathering and I'd be happy to pick a prop up for you and send it your way. Just noticed that the MadPoddle is selling Turbo props also. Scott won't do you wrong as he's helped many on the board get a good price on needed parts.

Snow is gone and Spring is ready to step up! Bring on May!

[Sam]

Check with Ranman on that 25" Mirage, not sure it still may be out on another trial :angryfire.

Sam :jestera:

[Pismo]

How about the revs of the Mirage+ 25" .vs. the Turbo 1 25"? Which will turn faster? Has anyone tried a direct comparison?

Thanks
Pismo

[Ranman]

Anyone have a 25 Mirage Plus they would be willing to let me try?

I have a pair of them at home. Their not in great shape (couple of small dings), but are fine for testing. one is labbed and one is stock. You going to AOTH?

[boldts]

How about the revs of the Mirage+ 25" .vs. the Turbo 1 25"? Which will turn faster? Has anyone tried a direct comparison?

Thanks
Pismo

Pismo,

Can't tell you about a 25", but had a 23" Mirage on my 22 turning 4800. So my first thoughts since the Turbo1 has less diameter was that a 23" Turbo1 would put the RPMs right at 49 to 4950. Once I tested the Turbo1 23", it only turned 4600 RPMs and the speed was almost the same at 65 MPH on GPS. Returned the 23" for a 22" Turbo1 and tested again. RPMs went to 4800, but most impressive was that even though running less pitch, the speed went to 68 on GPS.

Now, that's not a comparison of a Mirage + vs the Turbo1, but I think it shows the effiency of the Turbo1 prop. My Bravo1 had the 1.36:1 gear ratio thus the reason it wouldn't turn the 25 and 26" props that the 1.5:1 drives can.

[blackhawk]

From what I have read a Mirage+ has additional cup so it will turn a lower rpm than the original Mirage. So I would think that the Mirage+ and Turbo1 SHOULD be similar. However, this is just going by the threads I have read from various forums, not first hand experience.

[blackhawk]

I have a pair of them at home. Their not in great shape (couple of small dings), but are fine for testing. one is labbed and one is stock. You going to AOTH?

Randy, I can't make it to AOTH. Plus, I would have to get my Volvo FloTorq hub pressed in. I'm guess I'm gonna go for a Turbo1 and see what happens.

Randy, are you running 1.5 or 1.65 gears?

[Ranman]

1.65 which is why I run the higher pitch props (25P M+ and 24P QIV). I think you'll be happy with a Turbo. Worst case, if you hate it, you can sell it to me. I could use a "good" 25P 3 blader.

[blackhawk]

1.65 which is why I run the higher pitch props (25P M+ and 24P QIV). I think you'll be happy with a Turbo. Worst case, if you hate it, you can sell it to me. I could use a "good" 25P 3 blader.

Randy, sounds good. Your mag is a 300hp, right? ANd you're turning a 25 at 70+ mph? 5000 rpm? Those are some low slip numbers! I'm hoping to be under 8%.

[Ranman]

Randy, sounds good. Your mag is a 300hp, right? ANd you're turning a 25 at 70+ mph? 5000 rpm? Those are some low slip numbers! I'm hoping to be under 8%.


350 MAG @ 300PSHP ;) , 1.65:1 Bravo, 25P M+ Labbed turns 5200 RPM @ 70.5MPH.

I calculate slip @ 9% which is pretty normal by my estimation.

26 X 5200 / 1742.4 = 77.5 Theo MPH

77.5 - 70.5 / 77.5 = .09 = 9%

If you calculated it at 25P (I added 1" for the labbing and/or cup) @ 5200, slip is still over 5%.

Regardless, it's hard to get a true estimate of actual slip. I'm reading a VDO tach for RPM. Estimating pitch is also difficult as 1" can have a significant influence. Also, wind and current may play a small part in my GPS readings. I can run down the channel at 74MPH on a calm day ;) Anyway, most will agree that my little 18 is a bit of an anomoly for a stock boat. Good luck with the testing.

[blackhawk]

350 MAG @ 300PSHP ;) , 1.65:1 Bravo, 25P M+ Labbed turns 5200 RPM @ 70.5MPH.

I calculate slip @ 9% which is pretty normal by my estimation.

26 X 5200 / 1742.4 = 77.5 Theo MPH

77.5 - 70.5 / 77.5 = .09 = 9%

If you calculated it at 25P (I added 1" for the labbing and/or cup) @ 5200, slip is still over 5%.

Regardless, it's hard to get a true estimate of actual slip. I'm reading a VDO tach for RPM. Estimating pitch is also difficult as 1" can have a significant influence. Also, wind and current may play a small part in my GPS readings. I can run down the channel at 74MPH on a calm day ;) Anyway, most will agree that my little 18 is a bit of an anomoly for a stock boat. Good luck with the testing.

Thanks Randy, after having the Blackhawk for 5 years and not being able to test props, I am REALLY excited about dialing a boat in. This stuff is just like clutching a snowmobile. Look at the numbers, do the math, make an assumption to get where you want to be and try it! Then if it doesn't work lie in bed and think of your options until 3am. :) Let's just hope I am as good at this as I am at clutching!!!

I was using a 25 pitch and 5000 rpm, not 5200. So I was getting 1% slip! I am just hoping that my boat will be able to spool the 25. I have done the math a hundred times and it SHOULD. But, should is the key word. I just hope it does and I keep the 8% slip I am currently running with the Viper prop. Cause if it does I will be grinning from ear to ear! :D

[Ranman]

I think you'll be fine witrh the 25P if you're in the 300HP range with a 1.6ish ration. If you need more RPM, get creative and add a few HP somewhere (injectors, carb, K&N arrestor), roller rockers, etc). Remember, it's much tougher to add pitch to a prop than it is to reduce it. Making a 25 a 24 is easy. Making a 24 into a 25 is tough.

To make it a clutching analogy, with the "big twins" I like to throw weight at the primary until the RPM's drop, (i.e. put in too much and them make some HP to get the R's back up a tad). Do the same with the prop.

[blackhawk]

I think you'll be fine witrh the 25P if you're in the 300HP range with a 1.6ish ration. If you need more RPM, get creative and add a few HP somewhere (injectors, carb, K&N arrestor), roller rockers, etc). Remember, it's much tougher to add pitch to a prop than it is to reduce it. Making a 25 a 24 is easy. Making a 24 into a 25 is tough.

To make it a clutching analogy, with the "big twins" I like to throw weight at the primary until the RPM's drop, (i.e. put in too much and them make some HP to get the R's back up a tad). Do the same with the prop.

1.51 ratio, 320 propshaft hp. Even if it only pulls 4800-4900 I'll be close to where I want to be. If I hit 5000 and still have 8% slip(or less) I'll be doing backflips! :D

I am totally looking at this like clutching a sled(Except I don't have 30 props laying around like I do weights and helixes!). Different curved weights, tip heavy weights, base heavy weights, lots of the "same weight" out there but with different "profiles" that react differently even though the rpm may be the same. I have ALWAYS used the load it hard then back it off approach, except with a sled you have the secondary in the equation as well. Speaking of secondaries, did you ever replace your stock helix?

[Ranman]

1.51 ratio, 320 propshaft hp. Even if it only pulls 4800-4900 I'll be close to where I want to be. If I hit 5000 and still have 8% slip(or less) I'll be doing backflips! :D

I am totally looking at this like clutching a sled(Except I don't have 30 props laying around like I do weights and helixes!). Different curved weights, tip heavy weights, base heavy weights, lots of the "same weight" out there but with different "profiles" that react differently even though the rpm may be the same. I have ALWAYS used the load it hard then back it off approach, except with a sled you have the secondary in the equation as well. Speaking of secondaries, did you ever replace your stock helix?

No, My machine was a 2001 with a roller secondary that seemed to work well. I left it alone with the exception that we wound the spring up from the 2nd to the 4th hole. I ended up running 72G Daltons with an EPI yellow in the primary and a stock secondary roller in the 4th hole. THe sled would turn 8200RPM which is where the twins made power... I sold the sled over the winter :(

[blackhawk]

No, My machine was a 2001 with a roller secondary that seemed to work well. I left it alone with the exception that we wound the spring up from the 2nd to the 4th hole. I ended up running 72G Daltons with an EPI yellow in the primary and a stock secondary roller in the 4th hole. THe sled would turn 8200RPM which is where the twins made power... I sold the sled over the winter :(

Stock helix held that sled back big time. Had a dead spot form 3-45 mph or so even though you were turning the right RPMs. A true progressive roller helix would give you 1-2 sled lengths 0-100. I dialed in over 20 01 XC8s. I actually like the 01 better than the 02-05 power valved motors. You getting another sled?

Now, back to boating, new prop should be here tomorrow! :D I will be testing this weekend.

[RedDog]

1.51 ratio, 320 propshaft hp. Even if it only pulls 4800-4900 I'll be close to where I want to be ...

I don't think you're going to get there with a 25". For comparison, what prop do you have now and what RPM does it spin. What speed (real) do you get now?

[blackhawk]

25 pitch??

I think that's a bit much for a 22 w/320 PSHP.... :wrench:

Where (RPM's) is your peak hp and torque??

Scott, I agree, but it's not a 22. It's, well, ummm, "close" to an 18. :D

[RedDog]

Scott, I agree, but it's not a 22. It's, well, ummm, "close" to an 18. :D

even with an 18 I have doubts - just trying to save you time and money. Thats why its important to know your starting point

[Ranman]

If I'm reading between the lines correctly, the boat is a Four WInns Unlimited U-19 with a 320HP Ford/OMC setup.

A 1.5:1 ratio with 320 PSHP will need more like a 23P or 24P. 25P will be too steep. I thought you had a 1.6ish drive...

[blackhawk]

If I'm reading between the lines correctly, the boat is a Four WInns Unlimited U-19 with a 320HP Ford/OMC setup.

A 1.5:1 ratio with 320 PSHP will need more like a 23P or 24P. 25P will be too steep. I thought you had a 1.6ish drive...

Randy, you are correct(Let the flaming begin!). Except it is a 5.7GXi Chevy motor. I know a 25 is pushing it but I think it should be close. Like you said, it's easier to take pitch away than to add it. The GXi likes 4800-5000 rpm so even if I'm only running 4800 I should have some decent numbers. Man, this stuff is fun!!! :D

RedDog, unfortunately I really don't have a starting point!

[blackhawk]

And, shouldnt this be in the "other boats" section??? :boggled: :smash: :D

Okay now, be nice! Please. :D

Believe it or not, I had very good reasons for my decision. And it is a 1.51.

[blackhawk]

So did OJ :D :D :D

Now, is that what you call being nice? :rolleyes: :D