So my X Dim. is higher, does this=more porpoise?

[RickSE]

This week is the first time I've had access to another 22 to check some dimensions. I've measured the drive & gimble i.r.t. the hull on both boats in several locations and come to the same conclusion on every measurement, my X dimension is between 1 & 1-1/2 inches higher. 2002 SE-500 B-1 22 vs 2005 496MAG-HO B-1X 22.

I know it's not much but wouldn't this higher X dim. make the boat want to porpoise a little more at lower speeds? I've talked about this before but my boat really likes to porpoise at slow speeds. I knew there would be some porpoise with a 22 but didn't expect this much. I'm used to it now but just wondering if this may be one of the reasons why.

I guess this would also explain why this boat ran such a nice speed number when it left the factory.

[blackhawk]

I would say that a higher X could give you a porpoise at low speeds because you have less "leverage" when trimmed down to keep the bow of the boat low and planted.

[Lenny]

Rick, "WHY" is your X-dim 1 to 1 1/2" higher? You don't have a shorty (IMCO)on there do you?

Did you order it that way?

I know Todd and Ted had stock X dimensions but added shorties with their 500's (600's ;) ). Dr Dan with the 500 is in familiar placement as well. This would put about 1200 pounds that same distance above centerline as well and contribute to roll easier wouldn't it ??? Let alone the porpoising.

:confused:

[Mr X]

Lenny,
the factory SE's did have a higher X-dim.......Donzi did not want to void the
warrenty (and add to the cost) by installing an Imco shorty.
I remember Steve Simon talking to me about my 22 while building the first production SE.

My 22 was the inspiration for the SE model production. (all of them) :rlol:
No offence anyone........... :jestera:

[RickSE]

Well I had a response written for Lenny but you beat me to it Ted.

Thanks Ted, guess that answers my question. Do you recall what they finally went with, 1", 1-1/2", 2"?? It's tough finding a good reference points to measure to on these boats. I suspect it's not as high as 2".

The only remaining questions I have about this boat is on the lay-up. I'm not sure if there is anyone left who could really answer this question. I know the SE lay-up was different but don't know the details. The only obvious visual sign is that the deck is fully glassed to the hull. From what I remember the SE's have two additional layers of glass.

Good old Steve

[roadtrip se]

Ted, nice to know that you helped SOMEONE with the rigging of their SE. I remember having to surprise you with mine at Eufala, because you had issues with the motivation to the questions I called you to ask about. Water down the river, under the bridge, and all that stuff. I am glad that you did it, because it gave me a template on where to at least start! Thanks!

Rick, I spent quite a bit of time trying to buy an SE and a 500 boat in sheeps clothing. Just couldn't ever quite get there on price, although your dad really tried. From various sources at Donzi, I learned that the boat is indeed glassed at the seam, has two additional layers of glass, and a thicker, reinforced transom. This is supposed to add 300 pounds, so it would be interesting to weigh it and see what happens. In your bilge shot, I can see the weave, so it certainly looks like they did add the layers.

I was also told that there was a lot of differences in each boats x-dimension.
I would think anything above an inch and a half would be about it based on where the motor would end up height-wise and rubbing on the hatch like the BH boats do.

As for the porpise issue, yes my boat has a little bit of it in the mid-range, but not at all in the bottom. There is no more lean in turns than I had before the shorty install. I would really look at your prop as the potential culprit.

Cool boat, sure would like to see it some day!

Todd

[Lenny]

the deck is fully glassed to the hull

Hope they gave you a GREAT fuel tank :D

[RickSE]

Lenny, I have the older style steel tank. I guess the polly tanks didn't go in until 2003.

Todd, Thanks for the info. A little more detailed then what I've heard before. I do believe my boat is heavier then a standard 22, with most of the additional weight in the back. An additional 300lbs is a lot but it does seems to agree with the weight that Powerboat Mag. stated in their review. Interesting about the potentially different X dim's. Ted did tell me once that I got a good one. I still find it hard to believe that I actually own one, never dreamed I would. One of these days I'll pull it East.

[ChromeGorilla]

One of these days I'll pull it East.


Rick, don't talk about it, be about it! AOTH, Winni, LG, Owners Rally..... you know you want to.... :biggrin: :yes: :yes: :yes: :biggrin:

[Mr X]

Roadtrip se wrote: "--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ted, nice to know that you helped SOMEONE with the rigging of their SE. I remember having to surprise you with mine at Eufala, because you had issues with the motivation to the questions I called you to ask about. Water down the river, under the bridge, and all that stuff. I am glad that you did it, because it gave me a template on where to at least start! Thanks!"

Todd, OUCH!
I would have been more than happy to share EVERYTHING with you, if you had been "straight up" with me when you called me. You know exactly what I am talking about.........

we are'nt going down this old road again........are we??

[Morgan's Cloud]

Hope they gave you a GREAT fuel tank :D


That mind of yours never stops working , does it ? :biggrin.: :wrench: :biggrin.:

[MOP]

I would say that a higher X could give you a porpoise at low speeds because you have less "leverage" when trimmed down to keep the bow of the boat low and planted.

Scott I have had it work just the opposite, true this was raising outboards up. It reduced or did away with both chine walk and porpoising. I would think it would work the same with an I/O deeper would give more leverage making the bow lighter, it would be good getting more opinions on this.

[blackhawk]

Scott I have had it work just the opposite, true this was raising outboards up. It reduced or did away with both chine walk and porpoising. I would think it would work the same with an I/O deeper would give more leverage making the bow lighter, it would be good getting more opinions on this.

You are correct, a deeper drive will give you more leverage when trimmed up and the lighter bow. A higher X(or shortie) will give you less leverage. Basically less trim is needed with a higher X to get the prop to the "sweet spot" so the prop is moving you more forward(less downward angle and thrust) which results in faster speeds. But the same is true when trimmed all the way down, more leverage means it will make the bow heavier and plant it more at LOW SPEEDS when trimmed down. Or maybe my brain is fried from working too much this week and I'm way off! :D

[RickSE]

Chrome, doubt I'll make it East this year. Our first trip to Lake Powell is scheduled the same week as AOTH. Then my wife and I are celebrating our 10th anniversary the same week as the Owners Rally. She'd kill me if I drug her to FL with the boat for our anniv. I know this because I already asked :banghead: Maybe next year.

Todd & Ted, I never knew you guys had issues. :tongue:

The 22's like to porpoise at slow speeds anyway; I just think a slightly raised X would make it that much more likely to happen.

I just need to stop driving so slow.

Year end profit share = Hydro Q-IV

[blackhawk]

I just need to stop driving so slow.

PROBLEM SOLVED!!! :D

[roadtrip se]

Todd & Ted, I never knew you guys had issues. :tongue:



A difference of opinion and in approach, maybe, in the past, but we've long since kissed and made up. This stuff isn't top secret, it's about sharing a passion for a hobby. Right Ted?

I take calls on a regualr basis from people here looking to talk about the effects of various upgrades that I have done and I am always willing to help someone spend their money on upgrades for their toy!

Can't wait to see the results of the various skunkworks this season!

C'mon AOTH!

Todd

[Rootsy]

:idea: :biggrin:

[RickSE]

You know I came this close to buying a Whipple for a HP500 a few months ago on E-Bay. It sold cheap but I just couldn't convince mysely to do it. Maybe later when all the warranties have expired.

Good chance I'll be at AOTH next year. My dad is building a new home in Clinton TN, giving us a closer place to stay.

[undertaker]

RickS didn't you own a 33ZX before you bought your 22 classic or am I thinking of someone else :bonk: . Just curious!! :D :D


Undertaker confused :confused: maybe!!

[RickSE]

RickS didn't you own a 33ZX before you bought your 22 classic or am I thinking of someone else :bonk: . Just curious!! :D :D


Undertaker confused :confused: maybe!!
My dad owns the 33ZX your probably thinking of. I've posted about the boat before and we tried to sell it a few times. Did you ever get a deal struck on your 33 to 22 conversion?

[undertaker]

Actually I have a deal PENDING on my 33ZX :rlol: Sea trail is Tuesday April 19th if all goes well my 33 should be history :biggrin.: Then Frank C. (Shanghied Again) and I are going to talk :biggrin.: :biggrin.: Thanks for the info.

[RedDog]

... My dad is building a new home in Clinton TN, giving us a closer place to stay...

Just up the road from me. If your Dad's drive gets full, you can park your SE at my house :jestera:

[Mr X]

A difference of opinion and in approach, maybe, in the past, but we've long since kissed and made up. This stuff isn't top secret, it's about sharing a passion for a hobby. Right Ted?

I take calls on a regualr basis from people here looking to talk about the effects of various upgrades that I have done and I am always willing to help someone spend their money on upgrades for their toy!

Can't wait to see the results of the various skunkworks this season!

C'mon AOTH!

Todd
Todd,
yes we have, but I still say you kiss funny! :biggrin:

[MOP]

Or maybe my brain is fried from working too much this week and I'm way off! :biggrin.: Scott I know of what you speak, this week has been tiring and interesting to say the least!

Phil

[GEOO]

I agree... .Raising the X-dim. does reduce the leverage and therefore the effect of the outdrive trimming in and out. This reduces the transom lift at slow speeds (drive tucked in) and the bow lift at high speed's with drive trimmed up. And adding weight to the transom moves the CG back and also increases the possiblity of porpoising.

There are several ways to reduce the porpoising; however most will reduce your WOT speed and controllablity.

Dragging the tabs is your best bet or add a fin to your skeg.

Other options:
1) Move portable weigh foward. Anchor,Cooler, Life Jackets Battery.
Try temporary weight in the bow first, (sand Bag all the way up in the bow)
2) Run a prop with better transom lift, larger blades, less rake, larger Dia.. ect..Caution: This may effect the controllablity at high speed's
3) Install a spacer in the drive and lower it back down.
4) add a stabilizer fin to the lower portion of the drive skeg. This will increase the effect of the trim angle of the drive on the Hull.

[blackhawk]

Or, as stated earlier, just drive it faster!!! :D

[MOP]

(Qoute) Geo

4)add a stabilizer fin to the lower portion of the drive skeg. This will increase the effect of the trim angle of the drive on the Hull.

George we spoke of the positive effects of the fin on your A drive, were there negatives? This one avenue I have been exploring to get the BH to lift the bow which even with the weight transfer will be necessary. I have spoken to an aircraft engineer friend he is saying I should try a forward leaning Cunard configuration rather then swept back, he feels that it can provide more effect with less surface area IE less drag. I told him no way would be a grass catcher. He did sketch a of a reversible one with an elliptical form, my original thoughts were to a reverse foil with the lifting surface on the bottom side which would add some pull down. My welder buddy say lets make both and go play, he is dying to go for a ride in the experiment. I will try it without first and see where it goes from there. So many facets to considered for this grey haired old guy but I am working on it!

Phil