General Donzi Education

[Laszlo]

Hey,

I'm fairly new to the registry and have a couple of questions regarding the
X-18 and the Minx. I've been a dreamer of donzi classics for quite some time, however, until i found this registry i have never heard of an x-18 or a minx. What makes these boats different from the standard classic series. I really like the x-18 profile. What's different? Thanks - Eric

[Formula Jr]

Let me be the first, or second or third person to welcome you to
the forums. Defining what a Classic Donzi is, is always a touchy
subject around here. Since MY opinion is much more important
than most everyone elses'here and due to the fact that I'm right
about everything; here is the straight dope on what a Classic Donzi
is.

These are the models that are out of production or still in production that
were designed Prior to the Merrick take over of Donzi from the Chrisholms.
That means any Donzi designed and produced after 1985 isn't a classic. And any Donzi produced
in 1985 to 1964 is a Classic. The are very nice designs that came after 1985,
but they are not Classics.
The Classic list:
Donzi 14 and F14.
16 Sporter-Skiier and all other Classic 16s including the OBs
18 2+3, X-18, Corsican
28 Sportsman
7 meter
Hornet 1,2,3, Benchseat and St Tropaz
The Classic 22, including one known OB version.
I would not include a real Blackhawk in this list as the hull was
altered.
GT 21
Spitfire, Doral, El Prescator.
Early racing Magnums with dual branding. Hey, they got Donzi on them.
F2, and the Criterians.

The Minx, Firefoxes(z boats) are on the division line of classic and post-classic.

After Donzi came under the OMC corp umbrella, it gets very difficult to tell
what was even a uniquely Donzi design since many of the designs crossed
different units of the OMC conglomerate. Yet the Donzi versions seem to have
been rigged towards performance and better interiors.

So there is a great difference in the X-18 (a styling reaction to the Muscle Cars
of the time based on the Classic 2+3) and the Minx which in my humble yet errorless option belongs
in the post-classic Z-boat lineup.

I'm now going to get yelled at.
But don't worry, its oky.
I get corrected all the time.

[Formula Jr]

I believe Geoo's X-18 alone raises the average speed for that model by 2 miles an hour. LOL.

[Ranman]

Eric,

Welcome to the Donzi Registry. I see you're from Livonia. There are several of us here from MI. I live in Redford off of Inkster. If you want the best Donzi education available look into this event.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=37647

Most of the Michigan guys here have the MADCOW logos below their signatures.

An X-18 is sort of a special versoin of the 18 Classic. They are fairly rare and were built from 72 to 78 or somewhere thereabouts. The X-18 has the same hull as the 18 2+3 (Classic), but a different flared and rounded deck and slightly different seat cushions.

The Minx, also a "Classic" to me was built in the 80's. It's a 20 foot hull and cam primarily powered with a Small Block Chevy and Alpha One Merc package. The Minx is a little longer and has more freeboard than the 18's.

[olredalert]

-------Per John Chisholm back in the day the X18 was an attempt to have a bit more upscale 18 while going for more engine hatch to carburetor clearance as it was possible that the X would be going up a bit. High-rise intakes were also more readily available and they ate up clearance as well. The standard 18 had already had some very different looking scoops and bulges on some engine combos. Add to that the new TRS drives that were coming in the near future which due to length had to mount the engines somewhat higher. Am I right about the TRS drives, Poodle? I remember that for some reason. Thats the only part Im not sure of.
-------To say the design of the X18 was a success is an understatement. The styling is timeless. The interior was upgraded with a fancy rear seat and new bucket seats that were designed with more upper back support. As an aside my Corsican (the last one built) is the only Corsican found yet that was delivered with the X18 buckets. Dont know if it was a request of the first owner or simply the seat they stuck in it.
-------John was less sure of the styling at the time. He told me once that he thought the "duck-tail" (his words not mine) was a bit much. Glad he didnt deviate from the designers wishes as the "spoiler really adds something..............Bill S

-------Oh ya, the Minx,,,,,a bit bigger. A bit better looking with a windshield than the standard 18 with same (my thought). X18s never had windshields from the factory to my knowledge. A bit dryer as there is more flair towards the bow and a deeper cockpit. You would have to experience each to make a good decision. Both have thier pluses and minuses!!!!!!

[Laszlo]

Thanks guys. Other than the length does the minx have the same hull design as the 18 & 22 classic? What motor options? Most important, how fast!? It seems that the minx is a mix of go fast and comfort? Now about the x-18. Other than the age, they seem to sell for reasonable prices. What are the drive and motor combo's? Are the any good..quality, power? I know i sound like a little kid w/the questions but i gatta learn somehow. Thanks for all the imput from everyone! -Eric

[gcarter]

Welcome Eric!
As a Minx owner, let me say this.
It seems I'm always trying to make analogies about life to cars.
An X-18 is a Cobra replica, or a real one for that matter, with a side oiler 427, you're very close to the elements.
A Minx, on the other hasnd, is a high end GT car. Maybe an Aston martin Vantage, or one of the new Maseratti Quatraportes. They have all the amenities like a wind shield, a complete seperate instrument panel, and side bolsters with cup holders.
The Minx hull is like a short 22. Catch 22 and I have measured the hulls side by side (but not exhaustively). But the major dimensions are the same (except the length). All the extra freeboard is in the deck design.
I hope this helps.

[Lenny]

Laszlo, there are about 176 X-18's (real) on this planet. We know, at least openly, ;) Poodle , :rolleyes: , of about 40 of them. Late '72 to sometime in '78. Here is a link, tho not near complete.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8067

[Fish boy]

Let me be the first, or second or third person to welcome you to
the forums. Defining what a Classic Donzi is, is always a touchy
subject around here. Since MY opinion is much more important
than most everyone elses'here and due to the fact that I'm right
about everything; here is the straight dope on what a Classic Donzi
is.

These are the models that are out of production or still in production that
were designed Prior to the Merrick take over of Donzi from the Chrisholms.
That means any Donzi designed and produced after 1985 isn't a classic. And any Donzi produced
in 1985 to 1964 is a Classic. The are very nice designs that came after 1985,
but they are not Classics.
The Classic list:
Donzi 14 and F14.
16 Sporter-Skiier and all other Classic 16s including the OBs
18 2+3, X-18, Corsican
28 Sportsman
7 meter
Hornet 1,2,3, Benchseat and St Tropaz
The Classic 22, including one known OB version.
I would not include a real Blackhawk in this list as the hull was
altered.
GT 21
Spitfire, Doral, El Prescator.
Early racing Magnums with dual branding. Hey, they got Donzi on them.
F2, and the Criterians.

The Minx, Firefoxes(z boats) are on the division line of classic and post-classic.

After Donzi came under the OMC corp umbrella, it gets very difficult to tell
what was even a uniquely Donzi design since many of the designs crossed
different units of the OMC conglomerate. Yet the Donzi versions seem to have
been rigged towards performance and better interiors.

So there is a great difference in the X-18 (a styling reaction to the Muscle Cars
of the time based on the Classic 2+3) and the Minx which in my humble yet errorless option belongs
in the post-classic Z-boat lineup.

I'm now going to get yelled at.
But don't worry, its oky.
I get corrected all the time.

Owen, not yelling but Who is Merrick and I am curious why you would think ANY donzi built after 1985 (when the mysterious Merrick took over) is not a classic.

[Formula Jr]

Eric,

Tell us more about what kind of boating you do,
and what you want your Donzi to do.
We all have our favorite boats - usually, the ones we own. But we like them because they fit what we wanted to do with them and the environments we use them in.
That can be a moving target for some people. Many folks here in the last 5 years moved up to the 22 footers from their 18s. And some have reservations about that or went out and bought more boats. So its important to know what sort of experience you're seeking and what sort of marine environments you envision using the boat in: How late in the season, how many people - spouse?- and other considerations. A boat, any boat, entails a whole support system that goes with it. Where you store it, what can you tow it with, how high strung the engine is, how loud it might be and how involved you really want to be with this. Do you fish, or ski or over night, do you want to travel to gatherings and do you care at all what all this may cost. We've all seen the back yard boat that never goes anywhere because the boat didn't really fit the owner.

[Formula Jr]

Sorry Fishboy, you are right, I meant to say Dick Genth.

The problem with getting old is the certanty of your wrongness.

There was a huge shift for Donzi after the Genth buy out. The first year of full production under Genth made more boats than all previous years of Donzi combined. I like using specific language. The word Classic loses meaning if every Donzi is a classic. I prefer the definition as: "Of having lasting significance or recognized worth." But the word also has a conotation of a specific period of time and the state of art of that era. There may be post 85 classics. Time will tell if something better comes along.

Owen.

[Laszlo]

Eric,

Tell us more about what kind of boating you do,
and what you want your Donzi to do.
We all have our favorite boats - usually, the ones we own. But we like them because they fit what we wanted to do with them and the environments we use them in.
That can be a moving target for some people. Many folks here in the last 5 years moved up to the 22 footers from their 18s. And some have reservations about that or went out and bought more boats. So its important to know what sort of experience you're seeking and what sort of marine environments you envision using the boat in: How late in the season, how many people - spouse?- and other considerations. A boat, any boat, entails a whole support system that goes with it. Where you store it, what can you tow it with, how high strung the engine is, how loud it might be and how involved you really want to be with this. Do you fish, or ski or over night, do you want to travel to gatherings and do you care at all what all this may cost. We've all seen the back yard boat that never goes anywhere because the boat didn't really fit the owner.

You just asked every question i ask myself evaryday! The core of my decision revolves around the mighty dollar. I'm looking for somthing that can be towed with my 2003 Ranger 4.0 4x4. It's not the best tow vehicle but i think it will get me started. I like playing on the inland lakes of Michigan. What do i want in a boat? Fast and loud! I'm a steak and potato kind of guy. I like going fast and scaring myself. I'm thinking an 18 footer. I lover the 22 but..one step at a time. I could write all day but i'll keep it at that. I just bought a house and i'm getting married this july, so i'm looking for something thats a little inexpensive..maybe needs a little work, just something to get me in a donzi. Thanks -Eric

[Formula Jr]

Then, I think the 18 family or even the 16 will fit if you want to stay in the Classic Donzi sphere. The 16 will work out a little better for towing. See, I ask and say these things because after '88 there are OMC "bayliner" Donzis. And they exist in name only unless you personally do something odd with them like put in a high strung engine and thru hull exhausts. But don't pay a premium for the name. Thats not a bad idea by the way and personally, a 70 mph Regazzasa 17 is interesting. But thats just me. You would be, "the talk of the town so to speak," if you did this. You are doing three things that will focus this decision, and yes they do have to do with money: Marriage, House and maybe Babies.....

By the way, congradulations on buying a house, And Getting Married.

[gold-n-rod]

Sorry Fishboy, you are right, I meant to say Dick Genth.

The problem with getting old is the certanty of your wrongness.

There was a huge shift for Donzi after the Genth buy out. The first year of full production under Genth made more boats than all previous years of Donzi combined. I like using specific language. The word Classic loses meaning if every Donzi is a classic. I prefer the definition as: "Of having lasting significance or recognized worth." But the word also has a conotation of a specific period of time and the state of art of that era. There may be post 85 classics. Time will tell if something better comes along.

Owen.

Well, that's all well and good, but we need to remember that Donzi markets a line of boats called the "Classic" with a capital "C". Your definition is spelled with a lower case "c".

I suspect that most Donzi folks are referring to a 16-18-22 foot hull with the same bottom when they refer to "classics." This includes boats of all eras (regardless of ownership) and the deck doesn't matter (i.e. X-18, etc.) I don't know where the Minx and Hornet fit in. <shrug>

I'm sure someone will correct me if I am mistaken. :smash:

[mattyboy]

I suspect that most Donzi folks are referring to a 16-18-22 foot hull with the same bottom when they refer to "classics." This includes boats of all eras (regardless of ownership) and the deck doesn't matter (i.e. X-18, etc.) someone will correct me if I am mistaken. :smash:


well now that you mention it not all 18s have the same bottom ;)

[gcarter]

I believe it's been well established that the Chisholms had the Minx designed, tooling produced, and hull #1 produced before Mr. Staples bought Donzi....
so does that make a Minx a Classic?

[olredalert]

--------Food for thought as I wind my way to the bedroom for a bit of shut-eye; There is a line of DONZI Classics.There are also DONZIs that are considered classics for one reason or another. Im actually not trying to seperate the two as they are all DONZIs and all are exciting. There are some DONZIs that are rare by design and there are some that are rare by production numbers, but all the early DONZIs and the later "Classic" line that they spawned are truly great boats. Am I making any sense? Im tired and Im going to bed.
--------Dont forget to spring ahead............Bill S

[Fish boy]

I believe it's been well established that the Chisholms had the Minx designed, tooling produced, and hull #1 produced before Mr. Staples bought Donzi....
so does that make a Minx a Classic?

Yea, but his friends call him Merrick LOL ;) George, I am almost positive you are correct (I will verify it in about 3 hours). When Donzi was purchased from the Chisolms, a second plant was built in Bradenton which would house the corporate offices and produce the Z-series of boats and later the fish boats as well. The original plant in the ft. Lauderdale area which produced the classics during the Chisolm era continued to build the classics there. Same molds, same tooling, same employees...etc. Not sure what makes 1985 the cutoff for not being a classic, IMHO, a 2005 22c is a classic.

As long as we are on the subject, I am not sure I would call the purchase form the Chisolms a "take over" as much as a rescue. The Chisolms built IMHO some of the neatest and best boats in the donzi lineage, but they did not run it like a business and the company debt continued to build under their ownership. As you know, often when boat companies fail, one of the last things that happens is they sell of their molds to other builders. Donzi was not to that point- mostly due to the financial strength of the privately held ownership, but it was not a profit center, and the writing was one the wall for the future of donzi boats in 1985.

Had Staples not purchased it when he did, there probably would not be a donzi today. There were not many suitors for the company, and even fewer with the vision and capital to turn it around. Think of the 22c with a Baja sticker on the side, or an added beak with a fountain emblem... I guess one person's take over is anothers rescue, but for whatever it is worth, had it not occurred, the next couple of generations of donzi fanatics would be driving something else.

I know this does not exactly comport with some of the information in the model list archive , but I also know that it was complied with the best intentions by members here through whatever sources of information were available on the net at the time. I would be more than happy to assist HM in filling in some of the blanks during this period if he would like to update it.

Now I am going to get yelled at too, so go ahead...:D

[Ranman]

Just to throw it out there, I think in Owen's original post his intent was to include the late model Classics in the overall classic Donzi definition though not because of their age. I read it to be there was a wide definition surrounding the classics circa the Aronow days. Anything built in the 60's regardless of model is a Donzi classic. Since the 18 2+3 was concieved, designed and produced in that era it's modern day counterpart (the 2005 18 Classic) is grandfathered in as a classic also. The 2005 model clearly is not a classic through age, but is a descendant through lineage.

Interesting thread. We need more of these...

[Formula Jr]

That is is my thinking Ranman. Thank you for the clarification. Of the classic era of design, there are only three surviving designs: C22, 18 2+3 and the 16 2+2 and Sport-Skiier. The Minx, I wasn't sure of the dates, but that boat seems to be pre-Z boat, pre Staples, Genth, Houser so it belongs in the classic group.

My main point here is really to say two things.
One point is that ANY Pre-Staples/Genth/Houser boat is very rare if rarity is important to the buyer.

The other is that, it is fantastic that three of these designs have been in production, essentually unchanged for 40 years with the 16'/18', or 24 years with the 22.
So they got it mostly right the first time.
Yes, there were slight hull changes in the 18 (sharp keel) and the 22 (chine changes) But they are all still straight 24 degree deadrise hulls with the same beam, shear, length, flair and freeboard.

[Ranman]

While I like and pretty much agree with Owen's definition, I also am quite fond of the other descendants of the original 16, 18 and 22 Classics. This would include the Minx, later model Hornets (II and III), Criterion and maybe some others I've missed. These boats while later in design and production (omitting them from the true "classic" definition) have what I feel to be the same spirit as the originals. The solid hull color and/or boot stripe and center deck stripe combos. The single engine, 24 degree gentlemen's hot rod.

To some degree, I even consider some of the Z boats (33, 29 and 25) as descendants of the classic line as these boats, while much larger and clearly in a different class, seem to have that same gentlemens hot rod theme or spirit of design if you will.

[Laszlo]

You guys really know your stuff. Here's onother. (this might be throwing gas on the fire...but you guys are good for it.) In all the changes in ownership throughout the years, what years are considered inferior to the standard quality donzi. Ex. I have been told the OMC, King Cobra packages are lessor in quality. As a perspective buyer, i want to know what years to look for and what years to lookOUT for? Thanks -Eric

[mattyboy]

well usually if there is smoke there a fire and and why not pour some gas on it
and Matty is usually holding the match or running with his hair on fire ;) when it happens


but as far as a less desireable donzi or years???

I think the value of a donzi is based on some intangeable factors such has

1. the talent or expertise in a given area ( IE a motor guy getting a boat that is sound structurally but needs motor or drive work ) same goes for glass
2. what you want from the boat or what you want it to be( if you gonna put a kick ass motor and a beefed up bravo with a shorty or an arney on it who cares wether it comes with a volvo omc or alpha
3. past care from the old owner even a brand new boat can be abused or sunk once or twice
4. any production line can spit out a lemon every once and a while
5. the OMC boats I have seen have been made by Chris Craft and have great fit and finish even under the load of 500 hp
6. what you're willing to pay
7. sorta related to 2 if you want screaming performance and want parts and props readily available in all sorts of shapes and sizes stay with a merc/ chevy combo
8. the hardest factor collectibility,rarity, that is left to be seen
9 the real question is how not to get burned buying a used boat

[RedDog]

...I have been told the OMC, King Cobra packages are lessor in quality. As a perspective buyer, i want to know what years to look for and what years to lookOUT for? Thanks -Eric

Now you've been told the opposite...

I've had a '90 OMC version and would have to challenge anyone to show me where the lessor quality would lie. I now have a '98 Merc edition - can't say the quality is better - just newer

[Ranman]

A tough question.

While the OMC boats typically carry slightly less value on the market due to in my opinion, a lack of service parts and an overall lesser commonality of components (Cobra / Ford parts) I wouldn't say necessarily that the boats are of lesser quality. Speaking for later models, the Merc boats are more common and preferred by many which allows a higher market price. I'm not sayint the Merc boats are better, just more desirable in the marketplace. If one can see past that, there are several OMC boats here that have been very good performers (maybe at an exceptional value???)

Some have questioned the level of workmanship during the OMC years. I cannot confirm whether or not there is a discrepency in workmanship of the hulls over the course of time. I have seen many different manufacturing changes on these boats, but to say one is better than another is tricky. Some manufacturing changes have occurred during mid-year production. This is to say one persons 1996 amy be built significantly differently than anothers.

Consider this: The original 16's and 18's built in the 60 and 70's were built top notch, given the available technology and materials of that time. Today, these boats are built with better mats, resins and coring. Gel coat has imporved as well. The materials are superior to those used back then. Does that make today's boats better? Yes and no. The materials are better. Since te materials are different, the manufacturing process is different also. ANyway, I could go on forever, but I think I've made my point. There is a ton of variation among all Donzis of the same model. I've seen some models that are built a little better than others, but there is tremendous difficulty in defining actual years, etc. What you need to do is analyze every boat on it's own and look at the construction, integrity and previous maineenance and care given. By paying particular attention to these details you will find your best deal.

Hopefully I won't get into too much trouble here, but I can say that from 1995 or so on (AMH Ownership), the boats (Classics) have steadily been getting better and better. I have looked at alot of these and this is my opinion. That is not to make any implications of the OMC boats, I'm just saying that the AMH boats have continually improved over time.

[gcarter]

Some further thoughts along the lines of Matty's (we hardly agree on anything, but he's getting mellower).
If you're buying an older boat, get a survey. I've seen Minx's, 18's, and 22's for under $5K. There's always a reason for this. It seems the top of the market for 70's and 80's boats is about $8K to maybe $16K. If you're looking at extensive glass/stringer work, outdrive replacement, engine rebuild/replacement, there's not much room to wiggle. I know in the realm of collector cars, the rule is always buy the best you can afford, not the cheapest. If the budget is REALLY tight, maybe one of these boats isn't the answer.
In the case of my Minx, I bought it sight unseen, but it was pretty cheap. When I got it home, I found an engine full of water, nothing was useable.
There was stringer work to do, but they didn't need replacing, only some modifying.
The Alpha gimbal assembly was pretty useless. I was able to replace the original housing with a repairable housing, and rebuild/replace the rest of the gimbal, including a new PS cylinder. The drive itself was in pretty good shape, but cosmetically TERRIBLE. I spent about 100 hours scraping it to bare metal and refinishing.
I lucked onto an engine, one the builder's customer had never picked up after two years.
The one good thing my boat had included was a set of Stainless Marine exhaust manifolds, risers, and crossover.
The wiring was almost non-existant, the gauges shot, the upholstery was shot, trim tab pump shot, tabs corroded through, trim pump didn't work.
ALL the boat hardware had to be replaced.
I think I have about $15,000.00 in my boat and I did everything myself except the instrument panel and engine. If I had the work accomplished by someone else, the same work could easily have topped $40,000.00. Talk about dumb.
Well anyway, be careful. It's always going to cost a lot more than you think.

[mattyboy]

plus the omc boats come with a built in drive shower :) ;)

[Dr. Dan]

:beer: Alright...I'll jump in here...I agree with alot of what has been said, I understand what Randy is saying....and I think he is correct in terms of the universal source for parts on the Merc based boats. The Hulls are another entirely different animal. I have seen almost new 22 Classics...where I thought my 1993 was built better, Stringer Construction and definitely Gel work...for those who are not familiar with my 22, its a OMC Chevy Powered 454 with the King Cobra drive...up until last Spring.

At that time I sucumbed to the sickness and fell deeply into the Abyss. I repowered with an HP500 EFI...that has been described by the gentleman who sold it to me as "Healthy"....i revamped the Gauges, kept the King Cobra...and now own what I believe is the only hp500 EFI powered King Cobra 22 Classic in the world!

After much research, and alot of discussion with the 6 or 7 peoples' opinions I actually value when it comes to things like this on this Registry. I went ahead with it....to say that we all are impressed or surprised would be an understatement. It all boils down to getting a good hull, quality rigging and someone who knows WTF they are doing and is not afraid to spend the Money or the Time to get there.

I am not done...but for now....it is an awesome little boat....and it wakes up alot of bigger powered boats that cost 4 times what mine does. I did have my hull Surveyed, once before I bought it...and also last year after the Repower to prove the upgrade in Agreed Value Insurance. Each time the Survey came back Stellar...

I know what I still need to do...and I am still deciding what I am going to actaully do. But for now...it scratches a very large itch! :p

Good Luck

Doc of a Seriously Depreciated Asset :spongebob

[Magicallbill]

It's really a unique buying experience when you can purchase a classic-brand new that is essentially unchanged from the inception of them in the 60's.
Yes the outer cosmetics are a little different,the right-hand helm,etc.,but what else can you buy today that's as close to "what it was".
It's kinda like goin' to a Chevy dealer and buying an SS-396 Chevelle off the showroom floor,brand new,that looks like it did in 69.,but it's an '05.
Everyone at the launch ramps I hit that are interested in my 18 are surprised that they are still virtually unchanged.
I don't care that they don't hardly have any storage,no windshield and no sunpad for the girl:those classics "move me" emotionally,and in this spit-out-the-newest-craze-oriented world,that matters..
To me anyway,
MB

[Magicallbill]

M.Poodle,
Thanks,and it'll be my pleasure to meet and chat with you .
I'll hit one of the events this summer even if gas does hit $3.00...(I'm going to get real good at anchoring..)
I've gotten lots of laughs and helpful info off the Registry,from your truck advice to proper prop selection and availibility of accessories.
I'd like to make a donation to give back a little. I would prefer to write a personal check and mail it to an address,if that's possible.
Let me know the procedure,
MB

[ChromeGorilla]

Why not get somethin for your donation.....check out my auction to support the boards in the general discussion area....you can pay however you want....all proceeds go to the site.