View Full Version : Arneson Surface Drives
Boatless
03-14-2005, 12:42 AM
I see that there is a member on here with an Arneson Surface Drive but I wonder if more people why more people do not try them?
I see them on some larger boats, 38' and so but not on the smaller ones?
What are everyones thoughts?
ChromeGorilla
03-14-2005, 05:58 AM
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ (brand new anyway)
And they are not exactly easy to maneuver around the docks when on a single engine boat. Twins would be much easier to dock.
gcarter
03-14-2005, 07:36 AM
There tends NOT to be room for a transmission, ask GEOO.
Paddle required!! :eek!:
Jamesbond it putting one on his Donzi. A Hornet I believe.
HallJ
03-14-2005, 04:13 PM
Jamesbond it putting one on his Donzi. A Hornet I believe.
If you want to use a fwd/revrs trans you can move the engine forward or
better yet go with Arneson's standoff box setup.
This offers better longitudinal Cg placement.
Jeff
mattyboy
03-14-2005, 04:17 PM
reverse is over rated !!! ;) :tongue:
Dr. Dan
03-14-2005, 06:27 PM
:smash: James boat is a 21 GT....and it will be awesome .... although we will all be too old to ride in it when it is finished...we can watch it from our Wheelchairs at the Home! ... :rlol:
Doc :smash:
:smash: James boat is a 21 GT....and it will be awesome .... although we will all be too old to ride in it when it is finished...we can watch it from our Wheelchairs at the Home! ... :rlol:
Doc :smash:
Tough crowd! :cistineb: :biggrin:
Boatless
03-14-2005, 09:55 PM
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ (brand new anyway)
And they are not exactly easy to maneuver around the docks when on a single engine boat. Twins would be much easier to dock.
This seems, from what owners have told me, to more of a misconception than reality. Docking that is. There are a lot of fishing boats up in Canada with a single Arneson and they seem to dock and manuaver very well.
$$ I do not know about, but nothing is free so in the long run it seems to be a good investment if you only have to purchase the drive unit once.
I have read on their web site about a propeller guard and I see that the engine does not have to move forward with their use of a standoff box.
There is much more in favor of a surface drive then not, like you seeing the commercial single setups ans in speaking Geo they will out turn any out drive when docking. There is an issue when using reverse but only if the drive has a cleaver prop, due to the thick trailing edges the do not grab well. One can get use to that, the commecial boys with round eared props do fantastic when docking. I was going to install an A drive and made it a point to speak with as many owners as I could find, ended up talking to more than 20 with all different types of apps. The guys I spoke with raved about the drives, damn near -0- maintainence, 20-30 % better economy, and depending on the setups 6-12 MPH gain in speed. I have yet to find one owner that would go back to an I/O, I have a full A drive setup and a brand new drive in my garage which I am not ready to part with yet. One experiment at a time!!!
Phil
Zigouras Racing
03-14-2005, 10:32 PM
I see them on some larger boats, 38' and so but not on the smaller ones?
What are everyones thoughts?
Smaller boats really don't need them... the drives on lighter boats are out of the water half the time, because they bounce around so much, and ride higher on the water than heavier boats. Surface drives only benefit larger (i.e. heavier) boats that always have the props too far down in the water to build good top speed.
One of our customers had a surface drive installed on his 24' Baja, and he was slipping so bad at 60 mph, that we had to upgrade him to a 5-blade, and then eventually a 6-blade prop. This was necessary because, after 50 mph, more than half the prop was out of the water. Surface drives were designed primarily for 34+ foot boats; I would never install one on anything under 30', unless the boat happens to be especially heavy for it's size.
- Paul
Paul I could not disagree more! Surface drives are designed to have only half the prop in the water, this is true of all types. If the prop can not surface it will not preform, if you want really good top end you must got to srufave piercing. That has been proven time and time again!
Phil
PS there is an 18 footer doing 120+ a fact!!!
Boatless
03-15-2005, 12:51 AM
Smaller boats really don't need them... the drives on lighter boats are out of the water half the time, because they bounce around so much, and ride higher on the water than heavier boats. Surface drives only benefit larger (i.e. heavier) boats that always have the props too far down in the water to build good top speed.
One of our customers had a surface drive installed on his 24' Baja, and he was slipping so bad at 60 mph, that we had to upgrade him to a 5-blade, and then eventually a 6-blade prop. This was necessary because, after 50 mph, more than half the prop was out of the water. Surface drives were designed primarily for 34+ foot boats; I would never install one on anything under 30', unless the boat happens to be especially heavy for it's size.
- Paul
This is the negative point of view I have run into. You do not state which outdrive it was. Was it an Arneson?
Also, you tried a lot of propellers, $$ what was the final result? Who makes a six bladed propeller?
I have seen 18' Donzi's, a 16' Tahiti that had a Jet originally, 24' Cat hulls, 25' Talons, 28' Warlocks, numerious fishing boats, and many varied applications. So I think what the true circumstances are, were yet to be determined in the boat you are referencing.
Was the drive installed correctly? Was the propeller diameter correct?
All the negative with no info doesn't really help.
As far as propeller being out of the water when the boat bounces around, if the boat bottom is in the air rather than in the water, then even a Volvo propeller is out of the water at that stage.
Footloose
03-15-2005, 09:59 AM
Cant comment on smaller boats with arnesons but I suspect cost is a big factor. Ebay has a used ASD6 which is their smaller one for sale with bids starting at $5k. Twin motor implementations would double that ... plus trim pumps, hydrolics, etc. Then there is the moving the engine issue cost and complexity, and finally props for surface piercing applicatons are BIG bucks.
I have the ASD80s on my non-Donzi (other boat is a donzi F33) project boat and after repowering and replacing every hose, wire, cable, throughull, switch, and reglassing the entire cockpit floor I am finally doing sea trials to see what prop changes I might need. The props arneson recommends for my application are - ready for this? - $12,000 EACH!!! I paid less for the boat than they want for one prop - hello!
Zincs alone set me back $150 and the rubber boots that need replacing every few years are $150 a piece....plus labor (needs a complete dissassemble).
Benefits are speed and fuel economy improve, shallow draft (my 43 footer needs less than 20-inches of water which has alreadys saved my butt in the Keys and Biscayne bay) and I get to beach the boat or hang out in the center of Boca Lake which is very shallow without getting stuck or touching the props to bottom. Besides, if you have ever seen a Pershing or Magnum or Baia go by at cruise speeds and see that rooster tail that is twice the lngth of the boat ??? Nice!
Zigouras Racing
03-15-2005, 02:12 PM
Paul I could not disagree more! Surface drives are designed to have only half the prop in the water, this is true of all types. If the prop can not surface it will not preform, if you want really good top end you must got to srufave piercing. That has been proven time and time again!
Phil
PS there is an 18 footer doing 120+ a fact!!!
I think you may have misunderstood me; I agree that the prop has to be near or on the surface to work efficiently at high speeds, but on a 19-footer with a surface drive traveling through 15" chop, the prop will not touch the water enough to build up full speed. The Volvo 290 on the other had, will work perfectly in 15" chop, even with the boat bouncing, because it will be right at or near the surface.
If you put a surface drive on a 19-footer, you'd better go with a 5-blade, or a 6-blade prop. Even then, you'll probably only have 1 or 2 blades in the water, when passing through 15-inch chop. Hering makes a beautiful 6-blade prop that we use on all our Mercrusier #6 drives, and "#8" surface drive powered boats. They are available in up to 38-pitch, and come pre-labbed. At $1,499 each, they are not cheap, but they hold the water great... even through 2-foot chop!
- Paul
mattyboy
03-15-2005, 02:25 PM
arneson donzi (www.arneson-industries.com/18'_donzi.htm)
an interesting read, and yes George's boat does slip a little while the prop ventilates then the boat well takes off like a bullet leaving a gun !!
the best is to see a guy in a 35 footer snickering as Geoo paddles out, then it's hey there gooooooooooes the guy with the paddle !!! :)
Zigouras Racing
03-15-2005, 02:50 PM
It's so funny to watch when an 18-footer beats a 34.
:rlol: It makes the rich man that own the 34-footer feel poor :rlol:
- Paul
Paul,
Georges boat runs better in a 15" chop then any other 18 foot boat period. I couldn't disagree with your statements about a small boat with a surface drive running in rough water more.
Another clear example is Stevie Marr's 18 with a blackhawk. Also a great running rough water boat.
Having spent time running small surface drive boats I think you are mightily mistaken.
If you need proof call george...or better yet call me I think I still have that extra set of keys to his boat... :wavey: :wavey: :wink:
One of our customers had a surface drive installed on his 24' Baja, and he was slipping so bad at 60 mph, that we had to upgrade him to a 5-blade, and then eventually a 6-blade prop. This was necessary because, after 50 mph, more than half the prop was out of the water. Surface drives were designed primarily for 34+ foot boats; I would never install one on anything under 30', unless the boat happens to be especially heavy for it's size.
- Paul
MOP is correct, the props are supposed to be half way out of the water. The proper term for them is actually surface piercing props. That is one of the reasons they are more efficient.
Air 22
03-15-2005, 04:54 PM
Paul,
Georges boat runs better in a 15" chop then any other 18 foot boat period. I couldn't disagree with your statements about a small boat with a surface drive running in rough water more.
Another clear example is Stevie Marr's 18 with a blackhawk. Also a great running rough water boat.
Having spent time running small surface drive boats I think you are mightily mistaken.
If you need proof call george...or better yet call me I think I still have that extra set of keys to his boat... :wavey: :wavey: :wink:
Chris....go gett'em boy... :uzi: :fire: and...meet me w/ those key's :yes: one ride wasn't enough :)
arneson donzi (www.arneson-industries.com/18'_donzi.htm)
an interesting read, and yes George's boat does slip a little while the prop ventilates then the boat well takes off like a bullet leaving a gun !!
:)
My 302 Formula with Kaama Drives cavitates a lot at take off, then it feels like coming out of a slingshot. It revs to 4500+ before the props bite, then you are getting off the throttle in a hurry. Another thing I like about my surface drives is the bow rise is much less than an IO when getting on a plane.
Boatless
03-15-2005, 10:28 PM
What would one consider the average depth submergence of a typical I/O? 3", 6" 15"
The reason I ask is due to the statement by Zigourus.
If the boat propeller is only lets say from 3" to 15" below the bottom of the boat and the boat is running in 15" of chop, then the bottom of the boat is out of the water and so is the propeller. My point is that it is a mute point.
Herring makes a 6 blade propeller, but where can I purchase one for only $1500? The ones he makes for a Bravo are $2,200.00 ea. Mercury SSM propellers are $2,200.00 for a four blade and $3,500.00 for the five blades OEM.
A five or six blade also generates more stern lift than a four blade so this might not be the best for every boat. One will need to take into consideration the amount of rake that the hull they have might need, but this seems to be the same for an I/O application as well.
We run a chopper prop on our 18’ boat with an outboard as it needs bow lift, but my friend runs a cleaver on his larger tunnel with outboards. Different application, different propellers.
smoothie
03-16-2005, 08:51 AM
Just a FYI....you can get a Bravo conversion with a tranny and not have to move the motor around...anybody know more about this set-up?
http://www.arneson-industries.com/bravo_to_arneson_conversion.htm
Dr. Dan
03-16-2005, 09:26 AM
:wavey: As I have been Told by those in the know....(Geo & Chris,Woodsy & Walleye) the critical thing is the X Dimension ... which is not a direct bolt on to existing cut out. The main issue of a Stern Drive to any Surface Drive, is you loose the hulls abilty to Trim, which is why they take longer to come on plane, George uses the New Rocker Plates/Tabs and the Fin he has attached to his Drive ... the obvious advantage if set up correctly is it is incredibly efficient, with less drag in comparison to a Stern Drive application.
Think about how much you use your Trim of the Drive to adjust the Boats attitude on any given run....? Now all of that changes...with a Surface Drive...not to say you loose Trim entirely, its just the method in which you go about achieving the change in the boats attitude is totally different. Sorta like driving from the left side of a car vs. right hand side...you can get used to it...its just different.
In a momentary lapse of reason I was doing serious research on making a conversion to an ASD-6 with a Box....so I got educated...it still may happen someday...but I have alot of other irons in the fire before that day comes...
I love Geos Boat, and anyone who has witnessed it run can speak to the sheer rush as it passes you at speeds normally reserved for boats 4 times its size....
Its all fun, but its not cheap....nothing ever is...
Doc :wavey:
I like Dan and many others have done exhaustive research into surface drives, there is more mis information out there then the real poop. Besides Geo, Rik at Arneson, Tim, and to many more to mention I went nuts gathering every spec of info I could find. Below are Arneson drawings of typical installs of both straight and drop style setups, there are advantages and disadvantages of both. One of the most talked about issues is weight transfer, Arneson addressed this by coming up with the extension box for Mercury Marine cut outs. But id delving deeper into using the new straight shaft A drive I have Tim (TMAN) helped me find a way to eliminate the box with nearly no loss of CG, this done by using a ZF drop box and a viscous coupling (extremely short direct hookup with no U joint) this provides far more durability and does away with the gears and chains which steal a little HP. Doing the install the way TMAN described it only moves the engine slightly forward, which we felt could be pretty much compensated for by moving all the boats pumps and batteries against the transom and maybe storing any other heavy item as far aft as you can. By using the ZF gear the engine sits 1-1/2 to 2" up from the hull lowering it deeper into the hull. The availability of used or even new straight A drives and not going to the Arneson box conversion can bring the $$$ way down for those of you thinking of converting.
The lower right Arneson install picture below shows a crank shaft in line transmission and a drop box, the lower left shows a Borg box that due to its desigh cannot allow the engine to be close to the transom. The ZF drops the coupling much lower and also brings the engine much closer to the transom, also attached is a claimed turning circle photo. There is a ton of info on the net and much more if you pick up the phone ans ask!
I have every last piece to do the swap but the ZF sitting in my garage, but my plate is also to full at this point with my other experiment!
Phil
A P.S. I have a file of over 200 pages gleaned from the net and other sources including the full Arneson shop & install manuals courtousy of GEO, I would be willing share with those truely doing the swap.
Rootsy
03-16-2005, 12:40 PM
Paul,
Georges boat runs better in a 15" chop then any other 18 foot boat period. I couldn't disagree with your statements about a small boat with a surface drive running in rough water more.
Another clear example is Stevie Marr's 18 with a blackhawk. Also a great running rough water boat.
Having spent time running small surface drive boats I think you are mightily mistaken.
If you need proof call george...or better yet call me I think I still have that extra set of keys to his boat... :wavey: :wavey: :wink:
have an extra helmet and parachute? :biggrin:
Boatless
03-16-2005, 07:23 PM
The only negative thing I can think about the ZF gear over the drop box Arneson is that the HP that the ZF gear consumes is greater than its counter part the Velvet drive does; and still it places the engine further forward than the standoff box allows, while possibly less than a standard drive line setup these boats are CG sensitive.
When I installed my Arneson most people told me it wouldn't work. Rik and Howard said don't worry about it. Back in then I had a 383ci with Fresh Water Cooling mounted on the front of the engine and I didn't have the room to move the engine foward for a transmision. Rik was working on a stand off box, so I decided to try the Arneson without a trannie for the first year and if the drive worked well and I felt like I needed a trannie I would install one in Riks new stand off box. Well, I love the way the boat run's and it's been 6 years with just a paddle. Most people don't realize I don't run a trannie.
An Arneson run's a seperate transmision just like a TRS drive. If the TRS drive fit's and doesn't mess up the CG so why would a Arneson. You should be able to run a transmision without the extension box if a TRS would fit, depending on the transmision you choose.
Most shops don't have expereance with an Arneson and just tell stories of how they are no good or won't work and people are steered away from the drive. And other people mount the drives incorrectly and/or don't spend the time to set the boat up to run correctly (get discouraged if the don't get the boat to run correctly after a few tries.)
I love my Arneson Rocker Plates the work great. But they were not needed on my Boat. (When I replaced my fuel tank I move it back, moving the CG back) I ran for several years with Bennett tabs, then for a year with no tabs.(No tabs on the boat when I ran up at Thousand Island's) The Rocker Plates give just give me more adjustment, fine tuning while running. Rocker Plates allow you to change the shape of the running surface to give more or less bow lift. Allows you to adjust for a miss match of the boat's cg at certain speeds. With most Deep Vees the faster you go the more bow lift you need.
My boat steers better now then with the Volvo, around the docks and at speeds. Never been in a boat with reverse but have been told they work fine.
Paul you wrote:
"One of our customers had a surface drive installed on his 24' Baja, and he was slipping so bad at 60 mph, that we had to upgrade him to a 5-blade, and then eventually a 6-blade prop. This was necessary because, after 50 mph, more than half the prop was out of the water. Surface drives were designed primarily for 34+ foot boats; I would never install one on anything under 30', unless the boat happens to be especially heavy for it's size"
Something was wrong with the set-up, drive mounted to high, boat driven at wrong trim, incorrect CG. If your customer still runs the Arneson I gladdly try and help. I run a four blade Rolla 14" x 25". Once she get's on plane. She run's 8-10% slip and doesn't breaks loose, even running 40 to 60mph sprints in a two-three foot chop. ( Sarasota last year some good photo's of that day somewhere?) :chilipepp
When I first installed the drive I had too much Transom lift and Rik at Arneson Industries made up a horizontal fin to add to the skeg. The fin took a few tries to get the proper angle. But now it gives me just enough drag & leverage to lift the bow and not too much to slow me down.
Chris maybe you can make some good use of those keys this fall. I would like to leave the boat in Sarasota a few weeks after the Mike Miller gathering. :cistineb:
Inside storage is available....reserve now :smile: :smile: :wavey:
Chris
I have hit a new low...my favorite store is Home Depot. Junior gets a taste of reality.
Boatless
03-16-2005, 10:16 PM
Finally someone with real experiene that tells it like it is.
I could not see how the issue of slow speed manuavering made any sense, but like GEOO says most have no knowlege and nothing good to say.
HallJ
03-17-2005, 12:35 PM
A P.S. I have a file of over 200 pages gleaned from the net and other sources including the full Arneson shop & install manuals courtousy of GEO, I would be willing share with those truely doing the swap.
MOP,
I'm planning an Arneson swap for my Minx. I've rounded up most of the expensive stuff, exept for the Prop. I'm still looking for a fresh water cooling pump setup. I would guess there should be a setup that will bolt on to my '88
vintage 350 Mag. There is an extra groove in the Crank pulley, mabye I could find a setup to run off of that?
Any help would be great!
Thanks,
Jeff
Pismo
07-07-2005, 02:10 PM
I have just started talking to the Arneson guys about a swap on a 22 Classic. Has anyone tried this on a 22, and will the Bravo conversion package from ASD work well on a stock 22 502 Bravo setup? I'll let you know what the Arneson guys think.
Thanks
ChromeGorilla
07-07-2005, 02:56 PM
You know Pismo, if you end up with the bravo conversion package and it kicks total ass....... my wife aint gonna be too happy with me as I deplete savings......... :rolleyes: :biggrin:
gcarter
07-07-2005, 03:09 PM
Phil Reed recently inquired to Arneson about their Bravo bolt-on conversion that includes a transmission in the stand-off box that bolts directly to the Bravo gimbal bell housing. The cost was $15,000.00. Then the five or six blade Rolla prop may be an additional big percentage of that number.
Kind of pricey for me.
gcarter
07-07-2005, 03:24 PM
MOP,
I'm planning an Arneson swap for my Minx. I've rounded up most of the expensive stuff, exept for the Prop. I'm still looking for a fresh water cooling pump setup. I would guess there should be a setup that will bolt on to my '88
vintage 350 Mag. There is an extra groove in the Crank pulley, mabye I could find a setup to run off of that?
Any help would be great!
Thanks,
Jeff
Jeff, this part is easy!!
Take a look at;
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36014&highlight=sea+strainer
And also;
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39073
to see how I installed my crank driven seawater pump.
The Jophnson pump is a small fraction of the price of a Mercruiser pump ($129.00).
HallJ
07-07-2005, 04:46 PM
Jeff, this part is easy!!
Take a look at;
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36014&highlight=sea+strainer
And also;
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39073
to see how I installed my crank driven seawater pump.
The Jophnson pump is a small fraction of the price of a Mercruiser pump ($129.00).
Thanks, George.
MOP found one that should work for me!
Jeff
Lenny
07-07-2005, 05:13 PM
PISMO, Chris Allard (CDMA) has an Arneson and standoff box on a 22 already. Trouble is, ... I think it is still in New York... :D
Last I saw of Chris's boat it hiding in its private green hut in his Dads yard it was more apart then some past photos, what has been done is done to perfection. I hope he gets back into the project soon, he could have been the first but I think a few others may beat him to the punch.
The extension box is not the only way to go, but is the most expensive. V drive to the A drive is another good option and keeps the weight well aft, a lot less complicated about 1/4 the cost. The plan drawings are on the A drive site
Phil
Pismo
07-08-2005, 08:34 AM
I wonder if an Arneson would work better on a blackhawk hull?
With the rocker hull it should scream and I feel would be a lot faster and more stable.
Pismo
07-09-2005, 12:30 PM
The arneson guy just quoted me $16k for the setup with everything, helm, bell housing, all of it. Too much for now. Might be worth it if already need to do a TRS or Alpha swap.
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