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apollo24
01-17-2005, 01:40 PM
All,

I called a fairly local gentleman last week named Benny and he shared some very interesting history on his particular Donzi 16, which may be hull number 1. I am going to get more details, but in his discussions with Alan Brown, it sounds like this may be it or close to it. Perhaps some of you can look at the pix and give some more details. This boat apparently was built around 1965, but again, I will get more details. I just wanted to share some pix that he sent, since I found them so interesting. He had a lot to say about the boat's history- I will try to put it in writing at some point. I am also going to try to get him to bring the boat down for the possible Gulf Coast Rendesvous in the Spring.

Cheers, B

Lenny
01-17-2005, 02:31 PM
There is also an extremely early 16' in Sweden being restored by Thomas Roonberg I believe. First of the VOLVO equipped boats I believe.

Richard McCoy
01-17-2005, 06:21 PM
The eaton out drive like the B model showed is one of the first out drives which dates about 1960. At that time 125HP ob was one of the largest motors that could be installed untill the Ford 289 intercepter eaton drive. The 289 was still a little strong for the Eaton.Volvos were mostly 4 'S. Not including a standard inboard.

BERTRAM BOY
01-17-2005, 07:18 PM
It looks like this one........with updates

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36261

Morgan's Cloud
01-18-2005, 07:24 AM
FWIW ,

That blue is the same as my original colour and I have the Identical steering wheel. Mine was sold to me as a '66 but after a complete dismantling no numbers anywhere to be found.

Cliff ... I enjoyed those pictures .... In that transom shot .. is that cutout (round hole with small hole above) the Eaton Drive cutout ?

Steve

ALLAN BROWN
01-18-2005, 07:42 AM
I showed the first Donzi in the Jacksonville, Fl. show in Nov. '64. White, blue stripe, 4 cyl. Volvo, sandcast 200 drive (first one ever in this country). Average redneck comment: "What the hayellll is that?

Rodger
01-18-2005, 08:58 AM
With the exception of the color that boat is identical to my 16, including the Rocket trailer. The only other difference is the power lift button on the dash. I didn't know that particular Eaton Drive was available with power lift. The designed method of trailering was to spin the outdrive 180 degrees with he prop toward the sky. I usually would lift the drive by hand and insert a board to hold up the drive for trailering.

Morgan's Cloud: yes, that is the Eaton transom cutout.

Richard McCoy: I found that the weak link in the Eaton Drive was the shear pin. I built a pretty healthy 302 for mine (about 270 HP) and the drive held up fine. I was constantly making my own shear pins from all different materials to find one that would hold up. If I used the stock pin with the 302 I built, it would usually snap with only one wide open blast. My boat originally had the 260 SBF with a Carter 2 bbl.

BUIZILLA
01-18-2005, 09:09 AM
Brownie, just how old are you ? :umbrella:

JH

Morgan's Cloud
01-18-2005, 09:35 AM
I showed the first Donzi in the Jacksonville, Fl. show in Nov. '64. White, blue stripe, 4 cyl. Volvo, sandcast 200 drive (first one ever in this country). Average redneck comment: "What the hayellll is that?


And what model would that have been ? ?

I'm kinda guessing that by the "what the hayelll is that" question, it was'nt a fish boat... i.e. St Tropez ... :biggrin:

apollo24
01-18-2005, 01:33 PM
I spoke with Benny, who owns the blue and white boat, today. That boat came from the J'ville boat show in 64 or 65, I believe. The family who owned the Broadwater Resort down the road here bought two- a red and the blue one. Benny bought the blue one from them in the 60's. It had the same shear pin problem as the post above!

Allan, Benny seems to think that this is the only '65 model. Any info on this boat?

Cheers, B

Magicallbill
01-18-2005, 02:26 PM
Someone tell the owner to get rid of the stickers on the side and put the "DONZI" logo back on.
That boat is probably worth something I would think.(Probably not as much as that yellow 50-some thousand dollar one on that showroom floor shot.)
Cool...

Mr X
01-18-2005, 04:08 PM
So is this THE first one??

mattyboy
01-18-2005, 05:22 PM
no but I bet it's an early one, has a hull number search been done on this boat?????

BERTRAM BOY
01-18-2005, 06:30 PM
Steve.....yup, it was an Eaton boat.

Apollo, how do you fiqure that it's the only '65?

mattyboy
01-19-2005, 08:36 AM
well not to muddy the waters here, but what the hell I got nothing better to do Has I recouperate at home, but shouldn't the first one be a 64????? hence the 2004 40th editions???


Magical Bill,
I aggree with you on all the other stickers, but reviewing pics of the early 16's they didn't have the donzi decal on them just the flags and the script

and if they only produced 1 a year in 65 they were real busy in 66 and 67 cause my 67 is hull 410 ????

when did they start putting 289 interceptors in them??? mine left the factory with a 289 interceptor and eaton in mid 67

penbroke
01-19-2005, 09:08 AM
My early '66 18 was built with the Eaton 289 Interceptor.


Frank

mattyboy
01-19-2005, 09:52 AM
looking at the spec sheets in the model list for the 66 16 the
volvo 110 hp motor and drive was the only power option,and for the 18 a 200 hp interceptor was the option, i know it's an early hull wish we had a hull number???

ALLAN BROWN
01-19-2005, 10:23 AM
The Jax showboat was a 16'. It was THE FIRST production Donzi. Buizilla, I'm 69. Kiekhaefer's troops tried to bribe me to stop at the lake (X) on the way home for a gander at the new Volvo 200 drive. No dice. We built a s**tload of of 16's in '65.

apollo24
01-19-2005, 10:29 AM
According to the owner, and his conversations with Allan Brown, the first few boats had no hull numbers. They were too busy building them. Apparently there were several prototypes that they used to perfect the molds, but this one of the first) production boats. Mr. Brown can probably provide more details and correct me if I am incorrect. My understanding is that the first few had something written in magic marker under the foredeck (?) As far as being the only 1965 model- I don't know the details. Anyway, I am going to do my best to get this boat down to the proposed gulf coast rally in the spring. I need to pull up the Seadogs calendar and get that moving!:wavey: Thanks, Ben

mattyboy
01-19-2005, 10:59 AM
Ben,
the hull number was written in black marker and was usually found on the back side of the dash , up by the bow eye , sometimes back by the back seat if the boat is local grab a flash light and take a look,

boldts
01-19-2005, 12:12 PM
Apollo,

Benny called me on the phone and told me much the same info your relating here I believe last summer or the summer before. I thought I had started a thread about the boat and included pictures at that time, but maybe not. Benny was looking for info about the boat and I don't think had Internet access at the time. We talked about Allen Brown also at the time.

If you both get to planning your summer time activities, try to see if you can come up to Lake Cumberland KY in May. See AOTH 5 on the calendar here or in the Events area for dates. It would be a pleasure to have the first Donzi Classic 16 in attendance. I'm hoping and working on plans to have a boating mag. do a story on our gathering this year again. Sure would be a great photo opp. to show the beginning on up to the present.

There is a great contingent of Donzi owners that usually attend from the GA area that you could hook up with if you liked.

Take care and welcome to the Registry if I haven't welcomed you in the past.

Tomron
01-20-2005, 11:48 PM
I belive this is number one. Brownie gave me this photo when I visited him in Fl a couple of years ago and he told me that this is the first Donzi 16. This boat is identical with my boat and I belive my boat is about number 2 or number 3.

:sweden: Thomas

Tomron
01-21-2005, 12:07 AM
Here are some photos of my boat, it is from a test report in a Swedish magazine in 1965. This boat also run the Swedish race "Getingloppet" in 1965. The boat is under restoration.


:sweden: Thomas

mattyboy
01-21-2005, 10:40 AM
great pics Tomron, what engine is in your boat I notice it only has one exhaust port would it be the original in line volvo???, would love to see some pics if you have them

Tomron
01-21-2005, 12:25 PM
great pics Tomron, what engine is in your boat I notice it only has one exhaust port would it be the original in line volvo???, would love to see some pics if you have them

Yes Matty, it is the original Volvo 4 in line. The boat is under restoration and taken totaly apart, I will regelcoat the whole boat and restore it to the original 1964, I will do some small changes just to make the boat as it was at "Getingloppet" in 1965 with a tuned engine and speedmaster. I will send photos when I proceed the work, hopefully this year........


Thomas :sweden:

Tomron
01-21-2005, 12:52 PM
Some information about the 16 in 1964 and 1965

Thomas :sweden:

mattyboy
01-21-2005, 01:25 PM
very cool !!!! :)

JP BRESCIA
01-21-2005, 02:49 PM
Great pics Tom. In the 3rd Pic the boat is on plane befor the guy is past the dock!!! Kind like when I bought my first 18C :p

raritan
01-22-2005, 06:23 PM
I have a 65 SkiSporter with number 16-141.... The boat originally was an eaton with 4cylinder. Where might this boat fit in the scheme of things? Incidently it is on the registry under Tom Harrison

Tomron
01-23-2005, 01:35 AM
I have a 65 SkiSporter with number 16-141.... The boat originally was an eaton with 4cylinder. Where might this boat fit in the scheme of things? Incidently it is on the registry under Tom Harrison

Raritan, You’re boat is a 1965, built and delivered in July 1965 according to my notes.


Hull number 16-55 is ordered March 24, 1965 and delivered April 21, 1965. This boat is white with a blue stripe and midnight blue trim, tinted windshield. Ford Interceptor 165 HP, Engine # GT90L5244626 (this is a Ford 260, same as Mustang 1964 ½ ) Eaton drive # 33093CA16L47.
Sold to: Ohio Valley Yacht Sales, Louisville, Kentucky
Delivered to: Picked up by dealer at Donzi plant in Miami Beach (this boat went to KY)
First Owner: Frank B. Thompson, Jr. Louisville, KY

Hull number 16-136 is ordered July 6, 1965 and delivered July 21, 1965. Order # 199.
This boat is white with a red stripe and red trim, tinted windshield. Ford Interceptor 165 HP, Engine # GT90L526036 (this is a Ford 260, same as Mustang 1964 ½ ) Eaton drive # 34008CA16L47.
Sold to: Ohio Valley Yacht Sales, Louisville, Kentucky
Delivered to: Raymond’s Marine. Jeffersonville, Indiana.
First Owner: S. Paul Jones. Louisville, KY
Second Owner: Me

Hull number 16-145 is ordered July 6, 1965 and delivered July 21, 1965. Order # 198.
This boat is white with a green stripe and green trim, tinted windshield. Ford Interceptor 165 HP, Engine # GT90L526031 (this is a Ford 260, same as Mustang 1964 ½ ) Eaton drive # 33998CA16L47.
Sold to: Ohio Valley Yacht Sales, Louisville, Kentucky
Delivered to: Raymond’s Marine. Jeffersonville, Indiana.
First Owner: ??? Louisville, KY


Best regards
Thomas :sweden:

sweet 16 1966
01-23-2005, 07:39 AM
Great backgroung on the beginning if the 16'. My boat was sold to me as a 1966 when purchased in 1980. I wish I could have identified it with a production number but none was found anywhere. It came to me with an Eaton/Interceptor setup. Has the same dash as the one shown in this thread, no vents make it seam like a 1965?? Any ideas?

mattyboy
01-23-2005, 10:50 AM
Sweet for the longest time I thought my boat had no numbers but then were found on the back of the dash a little hard to read since an aftermarket speedo was added,and by the bow eye backing , not seen until the deck was off

well Brownie wasn't kidding the were pushing out 16's left and right looks like it took about 2 weeks to start and get it out the door Di's and Cliff's 65 16 is hull 200 something

my hull 16-410 was started 4-6-67 and finished 4-20-67 it too had a 210 hp interceptor and an eaton drive then was repowered by holman moody marine in 69 to a 351 and volvo 250
Tomron do you have any info or notes on this hull???

sweet 16 1966
01-23-2005, 12:10 PM
Matty, I took the top off last summer and looked all over but no luck!
Tomron, could you send a copy of the 16' information? I can't get it to print and would like a copy!

BERTRAM BOY
01-23-2005, 12:40 PM
Matty,
Di's 16 is hull #23 (we think).

Tomron
01-23-2005, 12:43 PM
Sweet for the longest time I thought my boat had no numbers but then were found on the back of the dash a little hard to read since an aftermarket speedo was added,and by the bow eye backing , not seen until the deck was off

well Brownie wasn't kidding the were pushing out 16's left and right looks like it took about 2 weeks to start and get it out the door Di's and Cliff's 65 16 is hull 200 something

my hull 16-410 was started 4-6-67 and finished 4-20-67 it too had a 210 hp interceptor and an eaton drive then was repowered by holman moody marine in 69 to a 351 and volvo 250
Tomron do you have any info or notes on this hull???[


No, I have this information on the 16's cause when I bought one of my 16 (Hull# 16-136) the seller gave me lot of original documentation such as catalouges, invocices and order forms etc for those three boats. He had this cause he was a Donzi dealer in 1965.

I have some info about the 21 GT, Mine (Hull# 21-24)is a 1970 but was special ordered with twin fuel tanks and maybe thats why it took so long time to build it. Build start: 2-4-70 Finnished 7-7-70. First Owner: Mr. Daniels.

The first 21 Gt was built in December 1968 and the last one in August 1980. Total 134 boats built.

Hull # 21-15 was started 7-31-69 and finnished 8-12-69. Ligth blue hull, white deck, white trim. Engine:290 HM Drive: Volvo ? Dealer: Stone Harbor

Hull #21-20 was started 11-13-69 and finnished ??? Red hull, White deck, white or green interior ? The building sheet says R/W/W/G maybe some one else know. Engine: 400 HM V-drive
Dealer: Stone Harbor


Thomas :sweden:

Tomron
01-23-2005, 01:29 PM
Matty, I took the top off last summer and looked all over but no luck!
Tomron, could you send a copy of the 16' information? I can't get it to print and would like a copy!

Try with this pdf, if it not works, drop me an email

Thomas :sweden:

mattyboy
01-23-2005, 01:29 PM
I knew it had a 2 in the number :o

Tomron
01-23-2005, 01:35 PM
Poodle, do you have a complete building sheet for my 21 Gt, Hull # 21-24. I miss some of the info.

Thanks
Thomas

raritan
01-23-2005, 08:47 PM
Tomron,
Where did you get your information..... I would really like to know who 16-141 was sold to, etc.

BUIZILLA
01-23-2005, 09:02 PM
Sooo, what exactly is a 290 HM engine package?? I didn't think 351's were around until the '69 model year in marine setup's??

mattyboy
01-24-2005, 07:40 AM
Sooo, what exactly is a 290 HM engine package?? I didn't think 351's were around until the '69 model year in marine setup's??

could they be referring to the volvo drive number???? just a thought or if they are referring to the hp of the motor it was dec of 68 was the 351w available??

mattyboy
01-24-2005, 08:59 AM
Scott,
true the 290 was a later revision in 71 they still put 250's on and in 72 they put 270's on
wonder if they had a 290 hp version of the 302????
if you go by when new car models are in show room in the fall was the 351 available in the fall of 68 for the 69 model year???

gotta love talking about this stuff when the weathers is like this ;)

Tomron
01-24-2005, 10:17 AM
Sooo, what exactly is a 290 HM engine package?? I didn't think 351's were around until the '69 model year in marine setup's??


The 290 HM = Ford 351, 290 HP. That's the original engine in my 21 GT, 1970

Thomas :sweden:

seano
09-23-2007, 09:38 AM
Mine is exactly like boat that started this thread...

I've been unable to find a hull id anywhere...

Someone closed up the transom and put outboard on it at some point, but I've removed the bracket and uncovered the hole where the Eaton drive once lived. The color of the hull and deck are original.

BERTRAM BOY
09-23-2007, 09:51 AM
Very cool Sean. No clamshell vents= very early boat.

BigGrizzly
09-23-2007, 09:59 AM
It could be like my boat with a 351 Ford Cleveland block, The engine was produced by Ford in 1969.

vonkamp
09-23-2007, 10:09 AM
Mine is exactly like boat that started this thread...
I've been unable to find a hull id anywhere...
Someone closed up the transom and put outboard on it at some point, but I've removed the bracket and uncovered the hole where the Eaton drive once lived. The color of the hull and deck are original.


You can see where the single exhaust was on the right side. Must have been a 4 cyl boat. Very cool. :yes:

BERTRAM BOY
09-23-2007, 10:12 AM
It's hard to see, but if you look closely, you can see the exhaust cutout on the port side.

BigGrizzly
09-23-2007, 10:16 AM
Some of the 16's has 260 CID interceptors in them. I did see a 1965 with a 260 interceptor with a Volvo with the external shift cable. This is the boat that helped convince my Dad to get our 16 for us. BTW we still have it.

Gearhead99
09-23-2007, 04:33 PM
I bought a 1965 16' in Jacksonville around 1979. I was living in Delaware at the time. It didn't have any hull #'s.

I hauled it back to Delaware and redid it. It had a 289 Intercepter. The motor was a 5 bolt engine too. The outdrive was a 200 Volvo, but had been converted from an Eaton drive. The seller gave me the Eaton drive also.

The boat had a red hull, white deck and red stripe. The interior was "sparkly" rolled and pleated red. The drivers seat was the flat style seat. It had the "heater vent" under the rear seat in front of the battery.

It had the SS louvered vent below the rear lift ring on the stern with a white lamp built into it and the bilge blower attached to the inside of the plate.

The hull had lots of "hook" built into it too.

Also, Rocket trailer.

I sold it when I moved to Florida. Then I bought an 18 here. I saw the boat for sale on this site many years ago. That was back when this site first started. Wasn't much activity back then. If I remember correctly there was probably only 2 or 3 boats for sale. Met GeneD back then too.

Use to run the Donzi 16 around the northern Chesapeke bay around the Sasafrass River and the North East Marina. Wasn't another Donzi at the "Flats" then. Miss that little boat.

Greg Guimond
02-12-2011, 11:11 PM
ttt for Bob in Covington :)

BobinCovington
02-12-2011, 11:40 PM
That is pretty funny...I clicked on new posts and then read through this whole old thread and was amazed at all the info on the old 16s, most older than mine...then read the last post which said "ttt for me"...LOL

Mine is a 66 and dad bought it new at Balboa Marina in Newport California right after they did the Donzi boat test in Boating News. This boat has seen some real water back in the 60s on several trips out to Catalina Island and been in some serious big waves. Dad put the 289 HIPO engine in and changed out a few shafts/prop in the Eaton, but it runs and we are working on restoring as we can.

I have to say, the rotating Eaton sure turns heads at the boat launch or on the trailer, the more I work on and run this boat, the more I love it. I really want to learn more and love reading what people know about the old 16s...hopefully this thread continues

Greg Guimond
12-13-2013, 08:17 PM
ttt for Bob :cool:

Ballinger
08-19-2014, 12:13 PM
80525805268052780528805298053080531805328053380534 80535I attached some photos for Comparison

Greg Guimond
08-19-2014, 12:21 PM
Ballinger, with only his 3rd post, throws an epic "1964 Hull" fast ball!

Morgan's Cloud
08-19-2014, 12:38 PM
Ballinger, with only his 3rd post, throws an epic "1964 Hull" fast ball!

Sweet little boat though . I think I'd hate to be in the position of having one that's in that shape + being hull 4

Do I leave it alone ? :banghead: Do I restore it ? :banghead:


OK , all you knowledgeable axpurtz , was there a year that they stopped using the 'air register' style ventilator ?

hardcrab
08-19-2014, 12:49 PM
my '72 - 16' had the air vent

jl1962
08-19-2014, 04:42 PM
Great old thread.

I think you have to keep an old 16 as original as possible - unless it's the "pulled from the weeds" variety......But this one's very nice.

I thought the HVAC vent was long gone by 1972. 1968 or 1969 for a guess.

woobs
08-20-2014, 01:48 PM
Well, Since some of these posts I have acquired SEANO's very early Ski Sporter 16 and hauled it from Long Is, NY up to Toronto, Canada. It's a "pulled from the weeds" kind of boat but, an early one nevertheless. (I think SEANO got it from Connecticut)

I'd love to glean the early hull card production records for a blue/blue, w/white stripe, Interceptor-Eaton production. There can't be that many... subtract the known boats and see what's left to do some detective work.

Of course, the other alternative is... it could be one of the Shepherd built Donzi 16's that came out of St. Catharines Canada. Shepherd had long time customers (dealers/marinas) all over eastern Canada and North Eastern USA that would have been able to retail these boats in both countries.

The original Donzi vision for these designs was to build a boat, test it and then race it while selling licenses for others to build boats for general distribution. I think Shepherd was the only party to get on board with this business plan.

Shepherd Donzis 1965-69 are very similar to early build Florida boats (with a light layup, HVAC vent and no factory clamshells). They were made with the original 16 moulds (shipped up from FLA in spring 1965). The only distinguishing factor I have found is the support tubes in the engine hatch run fore-aft and not port-starboard like the USA built boats. All hardware/rigging was sourced through the Florida operation. I have not been able to ascertain IF Shepherd numbered their production of Donzis. I have also been unable to ascertain how many boats Shepherd produced in their 5 year contract.

I am near the head of the list when it comes to preserving "original" boats of significance. However, if you cannot find supporting evidence (i.e. hull #), the boat has little significance, is not the 1st, 2nd, last or one of half a dozen ever built, and not owned/raced by a notable person, no notable feats etc... there is no point in going to additional expense to keep it all original. In this case make it the boat you want.



80562805618055780558
805638056080559

mattyboy
08-21-2014, 09:12 AM
the pics I have seen of the shepard boats the hatch looks to be smaller than I remember my 16 especially on the yellow pic the width of the deck next to the hatch looks to wide

wonder if Ed D could measure his 16 that would explain why Donzi went side to side with the support trying to keep the ends from flattening out

this is just looking at pics never seen a shepard in person

mattyboy
08-21-2014, 09:24 AM
looking at the pics again it looks like hull 4 has a smaller hatch than my 67 as well can't tell if it is an optical illusion with out the clamshell vents there that the deck side look wider or not . this may have just been a change they made trying to make it easier to get to stuff in the bilge

woobs
08-21-2014, 10:08 AM
looking at the pics again it looks like hull 4 has a smaller hatch than my 67 as well can't tell if it is an optical illusion with out the clamshell vents there that the deck side look wider or not . this may have just been a change they made trying to make it easier to get to stuff in the bilge

I think that is just an optical illusion or just a different look due to perspective. The hatch opening looks the same to me. Although, the older I get the smaller everything looks :)

The Shepherd moulds are the first "original" moulds produced by Donzi. Unless there was a change in 1964/65 I'm pretty sure they are the same.

8056580566
Blue 16 - USA / White 16 - Canada

mattyboy
08-21-2014, 05:45 PM
i guess it is the lack of clamshell vents that gives it the illusion of the deck sides being wider making the hatch looking smaller

judging by the snaps which look to be uniform on all of them they are the same on all of them including my old 16

woobs
08-21-2014, 06:01 PM
Matty, do we know when clamshell vents first appeared on the 16?

mattyboy
08-21-2014, 06:07 PM
66 ish but by then they had over 300 hulls built

woobs
08-22-2014, 12:00 AM
Oh.

I suppose undertaking the creation of a searchable database from the hull cards would be a bit of a project then, huh. :)

mattyboy
08-22-2014, 06:55 AM
Oh.

I suppose undertaking the creation of a searchable database from the hull cards would be a bit of a project then, huh. :)


no no real project when it comes to my hobby but then the database crosses into my professional side , that I am not so casual with a database, it is as only good as the data in it and well the good ol days tracking data was not a priority. there are a LOT of Holes in the data from the early days. I have filled in some of it with data provided by owners that is missing from the records. the data also changes we know more today then we did yesterday as some of these early boats get discovered.

Greg Guimond
08-22-2014, 07:21 AM
Maybe you do a database for the first 50 boats only, or any boat built by 1/1/65? The big caveat as you mentioned Matty is that there will always be holes in the data BUT if your work effort is only the first 50 it would be a far more reasonable undertaking. I also bet the word would get out on the "First 50" list and the holes would be filled.

mattyboy
08-22-2014, 08:09 AM
Maybe you do a database for the first 50 boats only, or any boat built by 1/1/65? The big caveat as you mentioned Matty is that there will always be holes in the data BUT if your work effort is only the first 50 it would be a far more reasonable undertaking. I also bet the word would get out on the "First 50" list and the holes would be filled.


where would you get that info??? the real records don't start until Teleflex/Chisholm influence think about that for a minute. the first 50 boats you are talking about maybe the first 2 months of production.

some benchmarks

first production boat showed by Brownie at the JAX boat show fall of 64 wonder white blue stripes

Hull 135 sold fall of 65

Michael A. says at the peak they were making roughly 80 boats a month

Hulls 400 to 420 completed and sold by Spring of 67

the very early hulls had the bottoms fall out when repowered a few years down the road i bet their are not to many survivors and the ones that do are WELL cared for and ORIGINAL like hull 4 pictured above.

lead time on a 16 start to water was 4 weeks from the factory the Hornet was 12 weeks , order May 1 boating in your new 16 by June 1

woobs
08-22-2014, 08:35 AM
Really, it is a monumental task. I'm not sure that adding or filling in holes is within the scope of a historical presentation. I mean, it's nice to have ALL that info but, as they say "it is what it is".

Just like a restoration you have to work with what is there. If information was not collected it should be left blank in terms of an accurate representation of the factory records. In terms of a definitive hull registry... well, that's a different ballgame.

Information is only as good as it's source. There's a lot of misinformation out there too. So, the enthusiastic newbie should not just "fill in" the blanks about a particular boat. They may not know what they are looking at or just plainly have ulterior motives. Unless missing facts can be proven and verified the definitive registry is really just a best guess scenario.

Of course the factory records may not be entirely accurate either as they were a busy bunch and making boats was probably more of a priority that recording history at the time. Also, it's been said that some of the production numbers may have been inflated. Along with this it's possible that documents may have been provided to help support the production claims. I don't know.... and I don't know if there's anyone left that does know. This does not change the fact that the records "are what they are". A historical set of documents and the best that we have to work with.

Yes, it's a monumental task to transfer these hull cards to a database. But, as a historical record of factory documents it can be completed. As an accurate registry of what was truly produced it can never be finished.

mattyboy
08-22-2014, 09:14 AM
We have the database, working to integrate it with the LGDCC website as a membership perk but the site is giving me some problems and I have no time to work on it now the next month is brutal for me.

the plan will be to have our membership enter a secure culdesack on our site with their own credentials and be able to search for certifed classics as well as uncertified classics by color, power, number, and dealer they will have access to our registry, clubstore, tech info and history on their boat.

it is far from monumental when the databases I work with on a daily basis at work can generate 60,000 call records a month the hard part is making it user friendly and able to adapt and compile info( I would really like it to talk make it sound like HAL9000). The SkiSporter would require less than 800 records

and it goes sorta like this:

Jay Lurie logs on with his credentials he is given the option to add/delete/edit classics that he owns to his profile with a check to make sure
the boat is not already assigned and also to make sure it is a valid boat. Jay can now fill in the known history, modifications and service log of this boat. When Jay sells the boat the admin rights to that file are transferred to the new member who can now compile his part of the story of the boat.

Jay can also search for other items and facts thru the registry, model list ,or any other part of our site. He would be able to search for special editions with in a sub group or within the entire database.

winter fun and judging by the leaves turning on my morning commute it will be here soon

woobs
08-22-2014, 09:26 AM
Somehow I managed a double post... oops.

woobs
08-22-2014, 10:45 AM
the first 50 boats you are talking about maybe the first 2 months of production.

- Hull 135 sold fall of 65
- Michael A. says at the peak they were making roughly 80 boats a month
- Hulls 400 to 420 completed and sold by Spring of 67

Just to look at this a bit closer...

50 boats made in fall 64 to early 65 (January? February?).
Hull 135 completed in the fall of 65 (October ? November?)
That's only 85 boats produced for the majority of 1965.

Oct - Nov '65, to Apr 67 is 18 months with around 300 boats produced in that time (hull 409) . That's just 17 per month over this time and just 10 boats per month for the first 50 produced ( 5 months; fall '64 -Oct? to Feb '65?). I'm sure we can assume some production realities. Production must ramp up as you cant start at a peak. Production demands fluctuate and some months would produce very little, other quite a few. Production may be slowed by any number of issues (supplies, labour etc).

Roy Farmer said that if there are no clam shells it's probably within the first 100 boats.
1966 clam shells are introduced at some point. If Roy farmer is correct that would be earlier rather than later. Based on production averages (boats per month), 1965 could have ended anywhere from around hull 155 - 185. Probably lower rather than higher.

1966 is the big year with well over 200 boats produced. Production peak could have been 80 boats but, I'm sure that was not sustained. Also this was the sale year and production numbers may not be all that accurate.

One more spanner from the monkey... I wonder if some figures may be based on Model year (MY) and not production date. So it's possible that a 1966 MY boat (sold in '66) was spec'd as a 1965 (no clamshells) as it was built in '65 ? Maybe?

Greg Guimond
08-22-2014, 11:00 AM
It sounds like the better first approach is a "First 50" list of 16s. Put that into database form and it does not become an epic personal undertaking if you are good with that kinda stuff which I am not. Then you crowd source the First 50 list and plug holes over time so that other people do the digging of data.

Matty's First 50 List ............. has a nice ring to it :yes::yes::yes:

woobs
08-22-2014, 11:15 AM
I would think the optimal approach is to publish the database as is from the factory records. Searchable but not changeable. Matty says 800 is not that many.... (I dunno, data entry... yuck!)

This can then be used by owners for research purposes. Updates added can go to the LGDC current registry as submitted by Jay Lurie.

Boom! best of all worlds.

Just Say N20
08-22-2014, 01:55 PM
Hull 409 was my boat. :)

I should have updated the records on that boat when I had access to it.

mattyboy
08-22-2014, 03:43 PM
ok let's see if I can capture a better pic of the time frame

first production boat nov 64

hull 145 delivered july 65 hull 136 on same order

nov 65 sale to teleflex

hull 384 first hull built in 67

hull 477 last hull built in 67


from 7-65(hull 145) to 7-67 (hull 440) they made almost 300 hulls

crunching the numbers they were avg'ing as high as 20 and as low as 10 a month on just the 16 models

Greg Guimond
08-22-2014, 07:08 PM
ok let's see if I can capture a better pic of the time frame ...........

So from the time Alan "Brownie" Brown of Florida showed the first production 16 I/O in November of 1964 at the Jacksonville boat show, to the last hull shipped in the 1965 calendar year, how many 16's do you reckon were built total?

mattyboy
08-22-2014, 07:16 PM
That info is in one of the large hole in the early records they were close to 20 hulls a month at that time so a WAG could be made based on that and 145 in July

mattyboy
08-22-2014, 07:36 PM
another fun fact to get your head around

they could start and finish a 16 in 5 days think about that hull 392 started on Friday March 3 1967 and finished on Wed March 8 1967 well 5 days if they worked weekends if they had weekends off make it 3

Greg Guimond
08-22-2014, 08:22 PM
That info is in one of the large hole in the early records they were close to 20 hulls a month at that time so a WAG could be made based on that and 145 in July

So ........ based on your knowledge and the archive data, is it fair to say (and Alan Brown could confirm tomorrow) that from the first hull being shown in Jacksonvile late 1964 to the last being built and shipped FOB in late December of 1965, there would be 135 hulls total thru 1-1-1966?

mattyboy
08-22-2014, 08:35 PM
So ........ based on your knowledge and the archive data, is it fair to say (and Alan Brown could confirm tomorrow) that from the first hull being shown in Jacksonvile late 1964 to the last being built and shipped FOB in late December of 1965, there would be 135 hulls total thru 1-1-1966?


:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused:

hull 145 delivered in july of 65 hull 136 same time frame so they were at least making 10 a month with that avg add 5 months to Dec 65 and 50 boats looking at approx 200 hulls or if you take the avg for the prior 8 months of about 18 boats a month and you are in the area of another 90 boats or approx 235

Greg Guimond
08-22-2014, 08:42 PM
So, I think what you are saying is that from Jax 1964 to 12-31-65 there were roughly 235 Donzi 16 hulls built?

mattyboy
08-22-2014, 08:52 PM
What I would say is there are no historical records that are exact for that time frame

what I would be safe saying is there would be approx between 190 and 250 made by the end of 65 and that the factory records indicate that hull 366 was completed before jan 31 1967

woobs
08-22-2014, 11:54 PM
Matty, I'd say your math is right in the ball park. Although I'd lean towards the lower number closer to 200 (or lower). This because there is a learning curve while producing anything and they probably got better at it as time moved along.

IF we arbitrarily said say, 190 boats by Dec 31, 1965... if hull 384 is the first of 1967 (presuming 383 is last of 1966) 193 boats for 1966 at an average of 16 per month.
This follows for 1967 with the final hull of made that year being 477.
Subtract from hull 383 and get 93 for 1967.

Here's my best guess:

1964 = built 20 (total 20) @ 10 per month [Hull #1 - #20]
1965 = built 170 (total 190) @ 14 per month [Hull #21 - #190]
1966 = built 193 (total 383) @ 16 per month [Hull #191 - #383]
1967 = built 93 (total 477) @ 8 per month [Hull #384 - #477]

Of course, these numbers are all just "ball park" estimates and in no way represent what actually was produced... But as there's no way to know for sure it's fun to speculate.

jl1962
08-23-2014, 05:49 AM
Pretty good timeline guys!

Two more data points: Bob in Covington believes his green Ski Sporter, hull 226, was built in 1966, and Bob Davis' 1970 was hull 600 - production really started to taper off.

Matty - thanks for your tireless, volunteer IT (and all round almanac-like general knowledge)- hope you get the website up soon.

Greg Guimond
08-23-2014, 06:39 PM
What I would be safe saying is there would be approx between 190 and 250 made by the end of '65 and that the factory records indicate that hull 366 was completed before jan 31 1967


Matty, I'd say your math is right in the ball park. Although I'd lean towards the lower number closer to 200 (or lower). This because there is a learning curve while producing anything. IF we arbitrarily said say, 190 boats by Dec 31, 1965... then hull 366 would indicate 176 more in 11 months or an average of 16 per month for 1966.


Here's my best guess:

1964 = 20 (20) 10 per month
1965 = 170 (190) 14 per month


Interesting. I believe Allan Brown showed the first production 16 I/O in May of 1964. You'd have to assume he went to Jacksonville with zero backlog and hope, and left with a handful of orders from customers. I'm thinking there were no more than 200 hulls built by 12/31/1965

woobs
08-23-2014, 08:36 PM
Interesting. I believe Allan Brown showed the first production 16 I/O in May of 1964. You'd have to assume he went to Jacksonville with zero backlog and hope, and left with a handful of orders from customers. I'm thinking there were no more than 200 hulls built by 12/31/1965

I think also at this time the deal with Shepherd must have been a priority as the first 16 moulds used were sent to Canada in 1964. I'm sure they didn't send the only moulds and were probably looking to sign up more builders.

mattyboy
08-23-2014, 09:42 PM
so how do you figure the rest of the model lineup had a play in this ?????????

woobs
08-23-2014, 11:49 PM
so how do you figure the rest of the model lineup had a play in this ?????????
Well, I know Shepherd also built 18's (a year or so after they started with the 16) but no other Donzi models. So, I imagine the license was by model line. 16's were the first Donzi product, the least expensive, they were the most marketable to a general audience and had the greatest demand. They had immediate interest and quickly became popular and Donzi became fashionable. When you have a winner... you run with it. They did, and the 16 was the volume leader (or cash cow).

I would also speculate that Donzi knew you can't survive long term as a "one trick pony" so at its inception a lineup of four models was launched. Bigger boats have better margins but lower volumes. A full line-up would also have given the fledgling company an immediate level of credibility combined with the reputation of Aronow, & co. The Donzi brand would have been instantly more marketable too. The 16 may have been the key to their meteoric rise but, the rest of the model lineup was to be the key to the future.

My theory is... retail sales were probably necessary for cash flow while they looked for other builders. When it looked like no more viable/suitable builders (other than Shepherd) were forthcoming , retail became the mainstay and soon the company was up for sale.

Of course all this is conjecture from a Monday morning quarterback with some historic tidbits of information combined with some business theories. It could be total bull ... :)

Greg Guimond
08-24-2014, 07:10 AM
Just ask Brownie about Shepherd .........

woobs
08-24-2014, 07:49 AM
Just ask Brownie about Shepherd .........

Afaik, He said they made a good quality boat.

I have been in touch with the Grandson of Howard Shepherd. He runs the Shepherd historical website. I have also contacted Jim Hahn Jr. His father ran Shepherd Boats during this time.

mattyboy
08-24-2014, 08:21 AM
well the Original line up was not 4 but three

sportsman hornet 16 then the st tropez and 18 were added shortly after then the 7 meter and baby 14 f 14

Don was only in charge of Donzi production for about a yr or so before Teleflex took over with Don as a consultant. 66 is the boom year, 68 with chisholm ownership the model line up explodes

by early 67 there are approx
45 sportsman
2 seven meter
30 hornets
50 st tropez
115 18 2+3
390 16
8 baby 14
14 f14

so take into account that production started really very late in 64 so by the end of 65 if we say they made 200 in a little over a year then by the end of 66 they have 390 built they they were roughly avg'ing 200 16 a year

in 67 16 production slows to less than 100 hulls a year another 200 hulls roll out of the factory in 3 years and hull 590 closes out the decade . the 70s see 16 production slow to a crawl then stop in the next 10 years from 70-80 only another 134 hulls are built by 75 hull 690 is complete in the next 5 yrs only 34 hulls are made and the 16 SkiSporter ceases to exist 4ever.

by 73 the factory has it's biggest model line up

they are making
2 16
3 18
2 19
1 21
4 24

I would Imagine they had has many 5-6 molds going on the floor at a time as the model line up increased I bet they sold off molds for the 16 that they had no room for

Greg Guimond
08-24-2014, 08:33 AM
Pretty good timeline guys! Two more data points: Bob in Covington believes his green Ski Sporter, hull 226, was built in 1966.


Another very good piece of data............

Bob would probably know the month that his Dad bought the 16. Depending on what month in 1966 that was you could continue to define how many hulls were built by 12/31/65 if his Dad's 16 was #226. I know Bob was selling his family 16 but maybe he will check in on this thread and add some color. I believe that specific hull was bought in Newport Beach CA. Given your info Jay, I am even more convinced that no more than 200 16 Donzi's were built by 12/31/65

Greg Guimond
08-24-2014, 08:37 AM
'
Here is the actual cover of the magazine that tested "Bob in Covington's" fathers 16. Date is August 1966 and they had just done the testing after which Bob's Dad bought the Donzi in California.

So as 16 I/O hull #226 it would have been built in July, 1966.

Greg Guimond
08-24-2014, 08:43 AM
That would mean that there were probably fewer than (200) 16 hulls built by 12/31/65 if they had only built 226 six month later.

mattyboy
08-24-2014, 09:07 AM
I would think that if the test boat is hull 226 it was made before july 66 the magazine came out for August 66 so the boat was probably tested in may or june the article written edited in july and released in late july to hit the stands for august . so that would put the build around april takes some time to get it out west too.

I have the article not much info on the boat specifics like color or comfort just tach speed points they did say it rode well in rough water

mattyboy
08-24-2014, 09:23 AM
Greg

so if they had less than 200 by 66 and close to 400 by 67 they must have been azzes and elbows in 66 if 226 came out in july 66 and by the start of 67 they had just completed 390 that would mean they would have had to make 170 some odd hulls in 6 months there is still some physics that take place here and they are making more models in 66 than 65 . I would think once they hit the stride, production and sales of the 16 were pretty stable and the averages would not jump from 10 to 30 hulls a month

Greg Guimond
08-24-2014, 09:38 AM
I agree Matty. Let's say that Bob's 16 Hull #226 was actually BUILT in April as you say. Makes sense as after all, this is 50 years ago and folks daily existence would've been a lot slower than our internet age today, right?
So we have (226) Ski Sporter boats built by April 31, 1966.

How many were (could have) built in those first four months of 1966? :screwy: ... I'm now thinking that (180) 16 hulls were built by 12/31/65 instead of 200.

Ironically, doesn't (180) match the total number of 16 wackers ever built not including Gerry Walins but (oh chit) do I digress!

woobs
08-24-2014, 11:57 PM
just have a look at this 15' Ski Sporter production rough estimation...

1964 = built 20 (total 20) @ 10 per month [Hull #1 - #20]
1965 = built 170 (total 190) @ 14 per month [Hull #21 - #190]
1966 = built 193 (total 383) @ 16 per month [Hull #191 - #383]
1967 = built 93 (total 477) @ 8 per month [Hull #384 - #477]

** numbers estimates with a 'give or take a few" proviso... :)

If we say 190 boats total by Dec 31 1965

Now consider Hull #226. If Jan 1966 started at #191 then 36 boats at 14 per month means #226 would be a late March-ish build, almost exactly where Matty said it would be. (That's close enough to spit... not bad for round figuring and 50 years).

First boat of 1967 is #384, presuming last boat of 1966 is 383.
Last boat of 1967 is #477 so, (477-383=93) and around 93 boats built in 1967.

Problem: #366 (prior to Jan 31 67) The first boat in 1967 is stated as #384. Unless #366 actually produced in Nov - Dec 1966

This could show a consistent but slightly increasing 1965-66 production level for the 16 @ 14 to 16 boats per month; with it tailing off in 1967 due to the number of other models produced and other market factors.

QUESTION: Does #226 have clamshells?

Greg Guimond
08-25-2014, 05:37 AM
just have a look at my 16' Ski Sporter estimation...

1964 = built 20 (total 20) @ 10 per month [Hull #1 - #20]
1965 = built 170 (total 190) @ 14 per month [Hull #21 - #190]

If we say 190 boats total by Dec 31 1965

There are many guys on this board that know A. Brown so to narrow things down you could ask him how many deposits he left the Jacksonville Florida boat show with in May, 1964. He was the dude there at the Donzi booth flogging the new 16 model. Now, the factory could easily build (20) units in 7 months but were peeps interested and buying yet? I believe that Jax was literally the FIRST unveiling to the public of the 16 Ski Sporter although they had advertised in 1963 that it was being tested and produced an intro brochure. I may be wrong as I wasn't even close to born yet lol.

The second thing is does Matty have any actual factory build cards for Ski Sporters with Hull # for 1964? I tend to doubt it as there were probably no records kept yet in '64, they may have started with calendar year 1965 once the 16 model was cookin with awareness and demand from the public and Don started thinking of selling.

mattyboy
08-25-2014, 06:39 AM
There are many guys on this board that know A. Brown so to narrow things down you could ask him how many deposits he left the Jacksonville Florida boat show with in May, 1964. He was the dude there at the Donzi booth flogging the new 16 model. Now, the factory could easily build (20) units in 7 months but were peeps interested and buying yet? I believe that Jax was literally the FIRST unveiling to the public of the 16 Ski Sporter although they had advertised in 1963 that it was being tested and produced an intro brochure. I may be wrong as I wasn't even close to born yet lol.

The second thing is does Matty have any actual factory build cards for Ski Sporters with Hull # for 1964? I tend to doubt it as there were probably no records kept yet in '64, they may have started with calendar year 1965 once the 16 model was cookin with awareness and demand from the public and Don started thinking of selling.

Greg
Not May and not 7 months the jax show was in Nov according to Brownie earlier in the thread.
The cards start during teleflex ownership but we do have factory invoices and correspondence from earlier boats provided by owners

woobs
08-25-2014, 07:32 AM
There are many guys on this board that know A. Brown so to narrow things down you could ask him how many deposits he left the Jacksonville Florida boat show with in May, 1964. He was the dude there at the Donzi booth flogging the new 16 model. Now, the factory could easily build (20) units in 7 months but were peeps interested and buying yet? I believe that Jax was literally the FIRST unveiling to the public of the 16 Ski Sporter although they had advertised in 1963 that it was being tested and produced an intro brochure. I may be wrong as I wasn't even close to born yet lol.

The second thing is does Matty have any actual factory build cards for Ski Sporters with Hull # for 1964? I tend to doubt it as there were probably no records kept yet in '64, they may have started with calendar year 1965 once the 16 model was cookin with awareness and demand from the public and Don started thinking of selling.

Greg, it's all really conjecture. A little exercise in reasoning and based on some detective work posted on these threads. Nothing carved in stone but, definitely reverse engineered. It was stated that there were probably 50 boats made in the first few months. Starting in November 1964, and considering a start-up production operation I don't think 20 boats in 1964 was impossible. Maybe it was less but, I don't have the clues to dig with.

We know that some boats were built in 1964. Yes? If you're going to be in business you would have to build some boats so, Its reasonable to assume that they were building boats before, during and after the JAX show because "you can't sell from empty shelves". I would not expect the shop to be turning out either peak or optimum volume during this time. So, maybe they started in October and averaged 7 a month or, September at 5 per month... Just tilt your head, squint and grit your teeth when you estimate... See, it looks okay. I think it stands up well as a ROUGH timeline given what we know.

I don't know Mr. Brown and have not met him (I would like to. He sounds like quite a guy). No matter where he was or what he was doing in the thick of Donzi legend in 1964 I would never expect him (or anybody) to remember exact details from 50 years ago. Especially, the volume of details on a myriad of activities (both, his activities and those around him) we would all love to know the answers to. The guy had to be crazy busy and concentrating on what was on his plate at a very busy time when everyone else was just as busy.

From what I have read Mr. Brown is very good at giving us his recollection and we should be appreciative. I would not hold anyone to fact 50 years after. I was around in 1964 but, I wouldn't swear on how many contracts I wrote in 2012 at a particular event let alone a lifetime ago. But, if Mr. Brown said something was "fact"... I'd take it to the bank.

Greg Guimond
08-25-2014, 07:45 AM
Greg
Not May and not 7 months the jax show was in Nov according to Brownie earlier in the thread.
The cards start during teleflex ownership but we do have factory invoices and correspondence from earlier boats provided by owners

Cool, do you have any factory invoices from 1964 16's?

mattyboy
08-25-2014, 09:53 AM
Raritan, You’re boat is a 1965, built and delivered in July 1965 according to my notes.


Hull number 16-55 is ordered March 24, 1965 and delivered April 21, 1965. This boat is white with a blue stripe and midnight blue trim, tinted windshield. Ford Interceptor 165 HP, Engine # GT90L5244626 (this is a Ford 260, same as Mustang 1964 ½ ) Eaton drive # 33093CA16L47.
Sold to: Ohio Valley Yacht Sales, Louisville, Kentucky
Delivered to: Picked up by dealer at Donzi plant in Miami Beach (this boat went to KY)
First Owner: Frank B. Thompson, Jr. Louisville, KY

Hull number 16-136 is ordered July 6, 1965 and delivered July 21, 1965. Order # 199.
This boat is white with a red stripe and red trim, tinted windshield. Ford Interceptor 165 HP, Engine # GT90L526036 (this is a Ford 260, same as Mustang 1964 ½ ) Eaton drive # 34008CA16L47.
Sold to: Ohio Valley Yacht Sales, Louisville, Kentucky
Delivered to: Raymond’s Marine. Jeffersonville, Indiana.
First Owner: S. Paul Jones. Louisville, KY
Second Owner: Me

Hull number 16-145 is ordered July 6, 1965 and delivered July 21, 1965. Order # 198.
This boat is white with a green stripe and green trim, tinted windshield. Ford Interceptor 165 HP, Engine # GT90L526031 (this is a Ford 260, same as Mustang 1964 ½ ) Eaton drive # 33998CA16L47.
Sold to: Ohio Valley Yacht Sales, Louisville, Kentucky
Delivered to: Raymond’s Marine. Jeffersonville, Indiana.
First Owner: ??? Louisville, KY


Best regards
Thomas :sweden:

looks like they were really busy from May to June hull 55 is sold april 21 by july 21 65 hull 145 sells that's a 45 BAM avg

woobs
08-25-2014, 10:57 AM
Phew... it was confusing enough using rough averages.

To consider peaks and valleys you'd need to plot each clue (piece of data) on a timeline graph and start there.

I'm sure there was a few periods of Feast then famine, repeat.

Greg Guimond
08-25-2014, 01:41 PM
looks like they were really busy from May to June hull 55 is sold april 21 by july 21 65 hull 145 sells that's a 45 BAM avg


To consider peaks and valleys you'd need to plot each clue (piece of data) on a timeline graph and start there. I'm sure there was a few periods of Feast then famine, repeat.

I checked my notes yesterday and it looks like the factory built just around (194) Ski Sporter 16' hulls from July 21, 1965 to July 21, 1966 :yes:

Greg Guimond
08-25-2014, 03:24 PM
And here is what is being called a 1964 Ski Sporter complete with hull #. Given that the Jax show was in November, 1964 and not May, it would be tough to build (20) 1964 hulls I would think. By January 1965 was the factory sorted enough to turn out 16 boats a month? If they were they were cranking.

Donzi 1964 Ski Sporter
As it came from the factory. Is the best first year boat in US other than the factory show boat hull # 3.
True Collector's piece that you can use every day.
Hull DM988 (#4 from Donzi), 47 hours on Hobbs meter
Power is 165hp Ford V-8 interceptor, I/O drive is Eaton unit, Engine Runs Great as does outdrive.
Have owned for 10 years. Recent tune up and run for 2 hours in fresh water.
Cushions are good, not new.
Trailer in Good shape.


I showed the first Donzi in the Jacksonville, Fl. show in Nov. '64. White, blue stripe, 4 cyl. Volvo, sandcast 200 drive (first one ever in this country). Average redneck comment: "What the hayellll is that?

woobs
08-25-2014, 03:51 PM
Fair enough, first one to the show in November 1964.

Do you think they started #1 at the end of November? Knowing they were about to launch and probably needing some time to ensure it was perfect for the show (after all it was a Brand launch as much as a Model launch) they probably left some time to complete it and make sure it was pretty. I suppose it's possible #1 was completed early and set aside for the show while production continued.

So maybe, #1 was started in October (or September)... Was it the only boat built before orders were received? I would argue if the moulds were ready, they were pulling hulls from them. So, they couldn't pull 7 hulls a month from October? (3 x 7 =21) Maybe it was 6 a month for a total of 18 (or 5 per month for 15 total). They had at least 2 months, maybe 3.

You could estimate with more confidence (and accuracy) if there were more information available as to what was going on at the time... but, we don't have that.

The point being (as I have stressed) this is not literal. It's a rough estimate and common sense reasoning. There were somewhere around 20 boats made in 1964... give or take a few. There were NOT 50, 75 or 100 1964 boats made in 1964. 20 is not out of the realm of possibility. But, only 4 is improbable.

woobs
08-25-2014, 04:11 PM
I checked my notes yesterday and it looks like the factory built just around (194) Ski Sporter 16' hulls from July 21, 1965 to July 21, 1966 :yes:

This would follow with my estimate model and confirm it, as a rolling 12 months for 194 boats is an average of 16/month. I estimated 1965 = 170 ish (14/month) and 1966 =193 ish (16/month). Right in the ballpark.

mattyboy
08-25-2014, 04:47 PM
the june of 65 popular boating magazine states that between the jan 15 public debut of the 16 at the NYC show and the date of the writing of the article April 15th 80 boats were produced. so that shows the time frame of test to print back then.

the article also shows the pic of two 16 running side by side Wynn and Brownie one in a white 110 volvo boat and one with a white 165 eaton seen here on this site with handwriting that says first two 16

back then press photos were used over and over and appear in several flyers and brochures over different years.

I would imagine the swedish 16 from the magazine was the prototype fitted with the volvo and was sent abroad in 64 sometime to be rigged and tested so they could rig the 16s here

woobs
08-25-2014, 07:13 PM
Hard to judge from an article though...(I never trust facts with the media)

Are those 90 boats all produced in 1965 or is that total production? Is 90 boats what they wanted to announce/tell the press? Is it rounded up, down? It's a round number. Rounded by the Donzi PR spokesperson? Or rounded by the journalist? Or both? And, it's probably a "feel good, we are on the cutting edge of the industry" puff piece. The kind that readers love, and magazines write to say "you heard it here first"... buy our rag.

Getting back to the statement though... If they produced 170 in 1965 then 1/3 of that (4 months worth) would be about 60 boats. If you include PYTD+YTD it's damn close at 80 then add a few to account for "time of publishing". You could be right there. Depends on the spin.

I'm sure the unqualified statement in the article was meant to show the great popularity of this new Company and it's immediate success right out of the gate. Not to report hard production numbers. But, I have not read the article.

woobs
08-25-2014, 07:15 PM
QUESTION: Does anyone know if #226 has factory clamshells?

mattyboy
08-25-2014, 08:14 PM
QUESTION: Does anyone know if #226 has factory clamshells?

most likely not but the boat has been modified if it was the test boat the 260 was taken out and a 289 put in. the test boat had no clamshells but 226 now has three non factory clamshells

one on the front deck facing fwd and two on the rear deck by the transom one fwd one back. with only two on the back the factory put them fwd of the hatch opening.

woobs
08-25-2014, 11:35 PM
Thanks Matty,

What is the next newer "known" 1966 hull after #226?
Or the oldest "known" hull# with factory clamshells? (maybe we can shorten the window)

Greg Guimond
08-27-2014, 07:34 AM
Greg, the build cards start during teleflex ownership but we do have factory invoices and correspondence from earlier boats provided by owners

Matty, can you post up a picture of a factory invoice from a 1964 Ski Sporter 16?

mattyboy
08-27-2014, 05:16 PM
Thanks Matty,

What is the next newer "known" 1966 hull after #226?
Or the oldest "known" hull# with factory clamshells? (maybe we can shorten the window)


Woobs

it would need to be certified as original it is easy to add vents there is a proposed 65 on ebay I believe it is a 65 it does have the rear deck vent holes but it also had holes for clamshells as well. The "Muncey " boat was supposed to be a 65 but when they resto mod'd it they added 4 clamshells

the rough timeframe is late 66 they added 2 thru 67 then in 68 went to 4

I can't post anything until our server is addressed i wish I could post the id form for the early 16 that would explain a lot of the production changes.

but another tidbit the popular boating june 65 article says the grab rail was a $48 option Mike A tells the story of when his Dad took him for a ride in an early 16 without a rail and while his Dad was putting it thru it paces Mike wound up flying all over the boat . he wound up holding on the the only thing he could laying on the floor holding on to the base of the capt's chair. I think Don's quote was " mike what are you doing down there. Mike said shortly after that the grab rail was standard

the article also says the test boat was one of the first 3 production boats and was the factory's first demo boat it was tested at Santana Marine dinner key miami fla

Greg Guimond
08-27-2014, 08:11 PM
Matty, is there any tracking records of 16 "invoices" that ties Waukesha engines to Ski Sporters built by 12/31/64 ?

mattyboy
08-27-2014, 08:43 PM
Greg

nice try but that motor was not around in any way shape or form in 64

it is the serial number for a 255 hp 351 motor not around til 1970-1974


factory cards do reflect some waukesha pleasure craft motors put in boats
this link



use this link to decipher

basically a volvo 1.61 outdrive setup

here run your numbers thru

http://www.wehs.net/connection-6-pleasurecraft.html

Greg Guimond
08-27-2014, 08:50 PM
Gotcha. I'm still wondering if 20 hulls were built in 1964. I agree with woobs that just because Brownie showed the first physical 16 hull in November 1964 that does not mean that a half a dozen did not get built before that. But even with that, do you have ANY factory invoices from 1964 Ski Sporters?

woobs
08-27-2014, 09:48 PM
It would need to be certified as original it is easy to add vents there is a proposed 65 on ebay I believe it is a 65 it does have the rear deck vent holes but it also had holes for clamshells as well. The "Muncey " boat was supposed to be a 65 but when they resto mod'd it they added 4 clamshells - That's why I specifically said "factory clamshells"...

the rough time frame is late 66 they added 2 thru 67 then in 68 went to 4

I can't post anything until our server is addressed i wish I could post the id form for the early 16 that would explain a lot of the production changes. - I just have things rattling around in my head...and I'm the kind of person that likes to put things in order... I suppose time will tell.

but another tidbit the popular boating june 65 article says the grab rail was a $48 option Mike A tells the story of when his Dad took him for a ride in an early 16 without a rail and while his Dad was putting it thru it paces Mike wound up flying all over the boat . he wound up holding on the the only thing he could laying on the floor holding on to the base of the capt's chair. I think Don's quote was " mike what are you doing down there. Mike said shortly after that the grab rail was standard - Great story!

the article also says the test boat was one of the first 3 production boats and was the factory's first demo boat it was tested at Santana Marine dinner key miami FLA

Yes, I understand clamshells in 1966...
What I can't figure out is late 1966 does not jibe with Roy Farmers account of somewhere near the first 100 boats. If around 170-ish boats were before the end of 1965 and near 200 more boats in 1966 ... clamshells could have appeared well after hull #300. That's a pretty big gap.

I'm sure there are clues somewhere and I thought we might know of a members 1966 documented boat that is original with factory clamshells.... or one without.

Ed Donnelly
08-28-2014, 06:44 AM
#409 2 clamshells ..Ed

mattyboy
08-28-2014, 07:21 AM
409 413 420. Same 2 on the fwd deck all from the factory

The factory clamshells were easy to find back then Algonquin in MI made them. So the only real way to know is paperwork and inspection

Greg Guimond
08-28-2014, 07:31 AM
These two pictures below will give an idea of how long it took the factory to build 7 Ski Sporters back in 1966. I've never been able to identify "Bill" but I'd bet he is still with us and would have some interesting insights.

woobs
08-28-2014, 09:42 AM
Those are great pictures Greg. You can't beat documentation like that! (Thanks Bill)

7 hulls about 2 weeks apart... 18th (a Monday) 29th (a Friday) so, around 14 boats per month. This is also an indicator that our timeline is on the right track.

What is disturbing is, #346 at the end of July with 5 production months left to get to hull #383 (the first boat of 1967 is reported to be #384). That's just 37 hulls in 5 months or 7.5 hulls per month. It looks as though SS 16 production dropped for the fall of 1966.

#409 would be a 1967 boat then?
Anyone have an earlier one with factory clamshells?

Just Say N20
08-28-2014, 10:16 AM
#409 would be a 1967 boat then?

I was told by Matty, that 409 (Ed Donnelly), 410 (previously Matty's) and 420 (previously Jay's) were built in April of 1967.

woobs
08-28-2014, 11:54 AM
I was told by Matty, that 409 (Ed Donnelly), 410 (previously Matty's) and 420 (previously Jay's) were built in April of 1967.

Okay. Then the spring of 1967 must have been slow too... (420-383=37) 37 boats in 4 months is 9-ish boats per month. I can see a slow down in the fall but I would have expected the spring ramp up to be greater volume. Maybe they were building other models at that time. It was also a slow year for 16's ....building under 100 hulls.

note** All of these clues fall within the estimated 16 production model.

mattyboy
08-28-2014, 04:30 PM
so now you're saying 226 and 339 were made in 66?? all before mid july?


387 and 388 2 clamshells if hull 226 is the test boat in the article no clamshells 226 early spring of 66 387 388 early 67 boats Feb



409 410 420 Ed's Mine and Jay's 16s

woobs
08-28-2014, 07:12 PM
so now you're saying 226 and 339 were made in 66?? all before mid july?

387 and 388 2 clamshells if hull 226 is the test boat in the article no clamshells 226 early spring of 66 387 388 early 67 boats Feb

I think we concluded #226 was completed before April 30, so it could go out west and be the subject of the article (presumably, written in July).

#339 would be estimated in the fall of 1966 based on 45 more hulls left for the year (end at #383)... this puts it in or around an August - September build. Again, it's easy to estimate average production with a few data points but, very difficult to place individual hulls without SOME hard evidence. I'm sure production was not that constant and there were peaks/valleys we just cannot account for.

If #387 is the earliest 1967 hull we have confirmation on, and #384 is reported to be the first hull of 1967 we could assume clamshells started with the 1967 model year (unless we confirm an earlier boat with factory clamshells).

woobs
08-29-2014, 08:39 AM
Just saw this on another thread....
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?67819-WANTED-16-with-4-3-that-needs-motor-or-18

Boat advertised as a 1965. http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/boa/4632327761.html

The boat has been messed with over it's life (and has clamshell holes). But, look at the gauge panel. Very early 3 gauge Volvo Penta, looks original to the boat. NOT like a production 5 gauge panel.
I think I saw a picture of one of the first 16's leaving the wharf and it had this panel. (Now I can't find the picture)

Whaddyathink? A possible early 1964?

8063380634

Scott Pearson
08-29-2014, 09:10 AM
Cliff Wind has hull #23. Thats the earliest one that I have ever seen in person. I have pictures of that one. It was mostly all original with original gelcoat.

woobs
08-29-2014, 10:18 AM
Cliff Wind has hull #23. Thats the earliest one that I have ever seen in person. I have pictures of that one. It was mostly all original with original gelcoat.

Does Cliff Wind say it's a '64 or a '65? Does that boat have any documentation? At #23 it might answer the "how many in 1964" question (or at least give us a real close data point).

I'd love to see the pics!

woobs
08-29-2014, 11:04 AM
Here is hull #136. Invoiced July 21, 1965.
This is reported to be a very "original" boat and it shows 2 rear clamshells (and one front).


8063580636
What's weird is they are the exactly same as you described for hull # 226 after being "modified". The rears are at the aft end on the engine hatch.... maybe they were experimenting with options?

woobs
08-29-2014, 11:47 AM
Okay, I found the pics from Thomas Ronnberg in Sweden of prototype #2...
Check out the dash!

maybe this is prototype #1 and the owner has no idea???
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/boa/4632327761.html

mattyboy
08-29-2014, 03:45 PM
okay
before we muddy the waters

Greg said that the test boat in the magazine cover he posted was Bob's hull 226 the boat pictured has no clamshells pics of Bob's 226 show 3 vents two at the rear deck and one up front on the center deck line just behind the nav lights

Tomron
s hull 136 shows 3 also but the fwd one is off to port and just fwd of the windshield so they are not exactly the same

the red boat with the couple on the cliff is from the 67 brochure it shows two on the fwd hatch area like 409 410 420

the black and white 66 flyer and brochure show no clamshells


all early volvo 110 boats had that dash panel

the very early boats were white

Greg Guimond
08-29-2014, 04:32 PM
If you took Cliff Wind's 16 Ski Sporter hull #23 with its pictures, and compared it to Bob in Covington's 16 Ski Sporter which Bob himself, as the current owner, said was 100% the 16 that Boating News tested (his Dad is still alive btw) you would narrow things down a lot.

a. Cliff's is verified #23 (is there a grease pen marking on it?)
b. Bob's is verified #226, 100% a 1966 hull, and thought to be laid up in April 1966 (is there a grease pen marking on that one?)
c. There is zero way that Donzi had built a production 16 hull in April of 1964. For timeline, let's assume that the first prototype was built in April 1964. that would mean that they built 226 Ski Sporters over a 24 month period April '64 - April '65 - April '66

The only, and I mean only guy who would know how many 16 Ski Sporter I/0 production hulls were built before the boat that was shown in Jax in November 1964 is Sir Allan Brown. He was there in 1964, and the dude evidently does not forget a friggin thing. Walt Walters might be able to add vague color about the prototype, pre-production hulls. They are both 81 this year I believe.

Brownie, Brownie, Brownie's your man, if Brownie can't nail it .......... no one can! ..... :thewave:

woobs
08-29-2014, 05:12 PM
Greg, can you verify if #226 has clamshells or not, and if so are they factory?

Matty,
That boat listed for sale looks to be white originally. My mistake with the dash... I just got excited.

Sorry about the red boat confusion.. it was listed on a website as a 1966 brochure. I removed it (before I saw your post) when I could not find a reference to 1966 on the actual brochure.

Whether Tomrons is slightly different or not is not the question. Which is.. are those factory vents. Maybe 136 is around where they started them? (close to Roy Farmers statement)

When I worked for am import car manufacturer we brought in a new model and chose a name different from Japan or the USA. About 5 or six of us went out to the parking lot where we had a couple of actual vehicles to work with. We moved stuff around and applied different badges/decals where we they should go. These particular vehicles were badged differently, and were sold the way we left them. A message to the Port of Vancouver that day set the program that was decided for the life of the model. Point is... maybe at Donzi in 1965 they tried a few configurations of vents before a decision was made.

Why do you say the vents appeared late in 1966? It would seem that we have a rather large gap with no vents then at the end of the gap... vents. What clues lead to a belief of a late 1966 application of these vents?

mattyboy
08-30-2014, 08:11 AM
I am at a disadvantage with the LGDCC down I have I don't have all my info at a point and click I have to search multiple machines and files.


we need to start tracking confirmed info unconfirmed info and generally accepted info

confirmed info

hull 136 ordered july 6th 1965 delivered july 21 1965
hull 136 has 4 clamshells( origin is unconfirmed) two fwd of the windshield and two on the rear deck at the back of the hatch
hull 226 has three clamshells one front deck two rear deck
Jan 31 1967 is some kind of benchmark cards are noted started and completed before this date Confirmed. (unconfirmed)Most likely as a tracking device for the purchase price of Donzi from Teleflex to Full Chisholm ownership which takes place in 1968
hull 339 started on july 18 1966 confirmed by Greg's picture earlier in this thread by Bill at the factory. that means from july of 65 to july of 66 202 hulls are made.
the test boat in the boating news in august of 66 has no clamshells confirmed hull number unconfirmed

mattyboy
08-30-2014, 08:26 AM
generally accepted info to be taken as fact


1. early 16 are light layups the bottoms fail the motor falls thru the bottom of the boat especially if more modern v 8 power is placed in the boat
2. the eatons were weak and had an issue with swinging to the trailer position or leaving the boat and a big hole in the back while under way
3. these two items result in not a lot of early boats surviving
4. early boats had no clamshells yet the 18 comes out in 65 with 4 in what would be known today as the classic arrangement
5. the early Hornet have raised louver vents then in 68 they are replaced with the classic 4
6. 1967 16s have 2 1968 16s have 4
7. production numbers were said to be inflated with the sale to Teleflex that would have happened in spring or summer of 65 Teleflex and John Chisholm are in place as of Nov 65
8. 1964 Donzi comes on the scene racing operations first and foremost production after

Greg Guimond
08-30-2014, 02:59 PM
Greg, can you verify if #226 has clamshells or not, and if so are they factory?


I am at a disadvantage with the LGDCC but we need to start tracking confirmed info.


generally accepted info to be taken as fact is that early 16's are light layups the bottoms fail the motor falls thru the bottom of the boat.

woobs, I can't verify that but contact Bob and he will know what #226 had originally and currently. You should also ask him if there is a grease pencil marking on his.

Confirmed today is that the Jax boat shown in Nov 1964 was either #3 or #4

mattyboy
08-30-2014, 09:20 PM
woobs, I can't verify that but contact Bob and he will know what #226 had originally and currently. You should also ask him if there is a grease pencil marking on his.

Confirmed today is that the Jax boat shown in Nov 1964 was either #3 or #4


Confirmed 3 or 4 ??????? sounds like the text book definition of confirmed

woobs
08-30-2014, 11:32 PM
woobs, I can't verify that but contact Bob and he will know what #226 had originally and currently. You should also ask him if there is a grease pencil marking on his.

I don't now Bob. Is he a member here? The other site? What is his screen name?

mattyboy
08-31-2014, 07:23 AM
here is some reading on Bob's awesome little grumble green 16

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?64253-Trip-down-Donzi-memory-lane-in-1966-Boating-News&highlight=

Bob confirms that the test boat in the article was purchased by his Dad from Balboa Marine the test boat as pictured has no clamshells.

Bob's 16 was for sale a while back, here is the thread linked to the boat from 2010 it shows the 3 non stock shaped clamshells so sometime after it left the factory and had the pics taken for the article these vents were added perhaps when the built 289 was put in.


http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?61975-My-new-old-1966-Donzi-Sweet-16

Greg Guimond
09-02-2014, 07:30 PM
Confirmed 3 or 4 ??????? sounds like the text book definition of confirmed

Yep, confirmed, unless you are holding out data. :lookaroun: ..Do you have something more definitive than the 16 that was shown at the Jacksonville Boat Show on November 15, 1964 being either #3 or #4 16 Ski Sporter built in your "stack 'o facts"? A pic of a grease pencil marking ID similar to the two that I have produced would be grand.

mattyboy
09-02-2014, 08:02 PM
I showed the first Donzi in the Jacksonville, Fl. show in Nov. '64. White, blue stripe, 4 cyl. Volvo, sandcast 200 drive (first one ever in this country). Average redneck comment: "What the hayellll is that?

Brownie said hull one was the Jax boat how did you confirm it it was 3 or 4 and is it confirmed as 3 or 4

I have posted pics of what I can confirm please do the same maybe Lou can send ya pics

woobs
09-02-2014, 09:17 PM
Other than being an interesting "historical fact" I don't understand the importance of whether it was boat #1, #3 or #4 at the Jacksonville show.

We already reasoned that more than one boat was produced at that time. This does not tell us how many at that time nor how many for 1964. Further, it does not tell us if there were any production differences in the early boats or, if there were, what were they and when they occurred.

So, why do we need to know if it was boat #1, #3 or #4 ?

just askin' :)

Greg Guimond
09-03-2014, 07:30 AM
All of this is nothing more than interesting historical facts. There was some discussion earlier in the thread about how many hulls might have been pulled from the mold BEFORE the boat that was shown in Jax. Seeing as the show was mid November '64 I don't think that (20) hulls could have been built in in 1964. Matty's comment is wrong by a little as the Jax boat was the first with the Volvo 200 drive I believe. There was probably a lot of push to get that hull ready for Jax and then a bit of a "sort through the aftermath" once the show concluded with orders and deposits and such. The LGDC may have paperwork that shows otherwise but the factory would have basically 5 weeks to build (17) Ski Sporter 16s. And one of those 5 weeks would have been the Christmas holiday week, which I'm not sure would have seen much activity so you are down to 4 weeks to build twenty hulls or almost a hull a day. Possible but not probable as they were probably just getting ramped up.

So certainly no more than twenty 16s and maybe only (10) were truly built in 1964 taking away when they were delivered? What production differences did those ten or so hulls have would be another interesting bit of data and might even be a better first stab at a much smaller database that could actually get put together and crowd sourced to populate.

woobs
09-03-2014, 09:46 AM
Okay, I follow your logic but, I don't follow your logic...

Just because the show was mid November 1964 it does not follow that the balance of 1964 boats were produced after that time with just 6 weeks to the end of the year. To be ready for the mid November show I submit the show boat (and probably several others) were started quite some time prior to the show.

How much prior? I'm sure experienced boat builders could put 1 boat out in pretty short order. However, if DONZI planned on entering the show it's safe to estimate that they started the production (of a new boat) with time in hand to have a sorted boat for a major product (and BRAND) launch.

So, let's say they started production in mid October for the mid November show. That adds another 4 weeks to the 6 you counted and now we have 10 weeks. Now, what's the chance that after producing Hull #1 in mid October that they let that mould sit idle?
20 boats in 10 weeks is hardly back breaking at 2 boats per week for experienced builders.
So lets give the factory Christmas week off. After all a start-up company has plenty of downtime, right? Especially just after a major launch and boat show that was obviously a success.

9 weeks, 20 boats...Do-able? YEP. :)
Even call it 18 boats, +/- 2-3 boats... it's a good estimate.

Greg Guimond
09-03-2014, 10:58 AM
Now, what's the chance that after producing Hull #1 in mid October that they let that mould sit idle?

I think we are saying the same thing. The mold was not idle from hull #1 in mid October, it built hull #2, and #3 and then lets just say #4 which was the boat with the Volvo shown at Jax. I think you are saying that although #4 was shown, they may have had #5 already in the plug. And lets say that they worked round the clock to get the #4 Jax boat ready and Bristol for that Nov 15 show. And lets say that on November 15, the first day of the show a customer said "I want to buy this specific boat and Allan Brown took there money. Then on day 2 of the show, he took orders for 5 more hulls and went back to the factory and said start building them. That would mean from 11-15-64, the day that #4 was sold to 12/31/64 they would have built and grease penciled (16) boats. I would think they worked every Saturday and only took off let's say, Xmas and New Years eve to start drinkin and chasin the ladies early.

Hmmmmmmmm.

woobs
09-03-2014, 12:16 PM
Almost.

I don't think they held production waiting for orders from the show. If you're in business you know you will be selling boats (especially if it's the only product you have announced) so, why wait to produce them?

It's not out of the realm that while #1 and #4 were being rigged (weeks before the show) they were still popping new hulls and getting their procedures' down. I figure they could have made somewhere around 8+ hulls in the 4 weeks from mid October up to the date of show. Of course some would be in the process of rigging... and then 8-10 or 12 additional hulls produced after Nov 15/64 to Dec 31/64.

Of course its all conjecture. But feasible.
But, I could buy into a number less than 20... maybe 15 or so, if there was ANY hard evidence or first hand recollection...

mattyboy
09-03-2014, 04:16 PM
The Jax showboat was a 16'. It was THE FIRST production Donzi. Buizilla, I'm 69. Kiekhaefer's troops tried to bribe me to stop at the lake (X) on the way home for a gander at the new Volvo 200 drive. No dice. We built a s**tload of of 16's in '65.

Woobs Greg

please take a look at this quote this means it was hull 1 in the 16 line up and the first production Donzi ever built this also means anything built prior to that was strictly racing hulls which are 19 and 28s guess what else takes place in Nov of 64 the Miami key west race the first race that donzi appears in and they had just about all hands on deck in the race Brownie in a hornet and a few 28s with Don, Jim, Walt in them so Donzi started in the summer of 64 and racing was the big dog, production starts after Nov 64 then in Jan of 65 the Sam Griffith takes place again all hands on deck for Donzi's first win. the first 3 or 4 hulls are volvo hulls 16s

woobs
09-03-2014, 05:11 PM
"The Jax showboat was a 16'. It was THE FIRST production Donzi"

please take a look at this quote this means it was hull 1 in the 16 line up and the first production Donzi ever built

But, that's not what it says. It says, It was the first production DONZI. I take that to mean it was the first production boat finished and it was a 16'. Not necessarily Hull #1.

It also does not say how many other hulls were being constructed at this time. Nor does it say when it was finished or how long it sat under a cover waiting to go to the show.

Maybe you could have Mr. Brown clarify these points.

Also, I don't buy that the Jax show boat was started in November and ready for the show mid month. I can guarantee Donzi had already reserved their space at the show, contracted for a booth to be designed and set up, as well as arranged for some sort of sales POS months in advance. In other words the preparations for a show of this magnitude and importance don't just happen the week before. Not the least of which is the starring feature (the boat).

Given this was the one thing ultimately under their direct control (not sub'd out), I would think they had given themselves time to build a boat and make it flawless for the show. After all, they were launching their Brand and this model had a lot riding on it not to mention the reputations of some pretty well known people.

When I worked for an Automobile manufacturer we had cars chosen and set aside 2 months before a major show. The entire month before the show they were detailed and made ready to ensure no flaws then stored under cover in a very clean room. I can't imagine Donzi leaving everything to chance at the last minute. Even for a start up company this is unthinkable. I would think with their famous little band of personalities and their ability to create attention and spread influence that this would be one of the First things done.

Greg Guimond
09-03-2014, 07:25 PM
Of course its all conjecture. But feasible. But, I could buy into a number less than 20... maybe 15 or so, if there was ANY hard evidence or first hand recollection...

You made some good points so I'm now thinking that 15 is the number of true 1964 Ski Sporter 16's built from 10-15-64 to 12-31-64. Yep, (15) is my number and I'm sticking to it.

Now, does the LGDC or anyone else have any tidbits and trivia, parchment with scribbles, or polaroid pictures to start tracking down the "First Fifteen"? Doubtful but a fun database to start.

BUIZILLA
09-03-2014, 07:57 PM
and the relevance of all this is what?

mattyboy
09-03-2014, 08:37 PM
Greg

I think you have Donzi's marketing plan bassakwards it was race win then sell boats that was the Formula

And your gonna have to explain how the first production boat is not hull one??? Should the wyn-mil be considered hull one???

Do you have the king of thunderboat row have you read it??
Can't really see any room for marketing when all the key players are out in 28s racing . once donzi made its mark in the race scenes in late 64 very early 65 they were set. Formula had the formula jr but couldn't get out from the backlog of orders for the 233 Donzi struck while the iron was hot and got the 16 out and to show and sales went nuts after the Sam Griffith in 65

So Greg what can you bring to the table? How did you confirm that the Jax boat show 16 was hull 3? Or is that just conjecture on your part?

Yes this may just be an exercise
But the base facts about the history and stories if those very early 16s in published accounts in press or on the web from people involved at the time fit. Remember Jim Wynn wanted to keep Karl K out and profit from his deal with Volvo for the IO. This was confirmed by conversations I had with Walt Walters about changes made to the running surfaces on the classics and other 24x7 boats he designed and the original design of the skisporter

I hesitate to post LGDCC records because you have reposted them and removed our trademark and water marks and you like to edit other people's quotes especially mine If your are gonna quote me quote me
I get myself in enough trouble here I don't need anyone's help

woobs
09-03-2014, 09:33 PM
Actually, I think the original marketing plan was race, win and sell licenses to build boats....80750

If several hulls were begun in a similar time frame it is absolutely possible that the first one completed (rigged, tested and ready for delivery) was not necessarily hull#1 out of the mould. Especially if in the beginning they were not using an assembly line type production. The production staff available at the beginning would also have some bearing on this.

I'm a little surprised to hear they shut down production around race weekends though. Even racing at the level I did we would be in race mode from Thursday to Monday when you look at prep, packing travel racing, return and unpacking. I would have thought that the race team had a dedicated crew apart from the principals that was separate from production crew or marketing contracts.

If they did take the production staff racing I believe they would have started the first production boats even earlier than mid October, knowing time was tight and manpower thin.

Matty, if your upset about the abbreviated quote I just posted ...I did it to be brief and single out one statement from your writing style. Not to change any meanings. Please point out if I have altered any meaning and accept my apology if I have.

woobs
09-03-2014, 10:04 PM
and the relevance of all this is what?

Buiz, I can't speak to others intentions but, I have been trying to ascertain how many 16's were made...and when. Most recently, how many 1964 boats made? This has a bearing on the 1965 production as we have some specific dates moving forward.

I don't have access to the clues, Matty does. So I have taken the tidbits of information from Matty and tried to plot the data to extrapolate general parameters. Then, using additional information (facts) and reasoning I have tried to narrow down the margin of error to have the timeline work between accurate data points.

I was also concerned with spec change benchmarks like the appearance of clamshells. This, in light of conflicting information from Roy Farmer and existing facts has proven difficult and we'll need more data , help and clues to nail it down... all in good time.

Have you followed along through thee thread? Do you have any data, clues or something to add?

BUIZILLA
09-04-2014, 07:22 AM
Have you followed along through the thread? Do you have any data, clues or something to add? I wasn't trying to specifically grill anybody, for sure not you, but after 50 years of established history, why are documented, printed, and established facts being changed to suit another agenda? kinda like an Old Testament vs New Testament vs Revelations comparisons.... it's an accepted and proven fact, that there are no clear facts as to accurate 16 hull construction amounts, which Teleflex quickly discovered, within the first 30 days after the buyout... there is absolutely no way your going to get an accurate hull count. Just look at the Donzi 14 Baby info, with a CRT1 in the hull number of which one in the sequence?

and we ALL know there are missing records and cards............

I can understand the clamshell/vent position(s) relevance to a point, but I think it would be foolish to use just that as a bible of production record keeping. How Greg has determined that #3 went to Jax when, I believe, Brownie stated it was something different, and Brownie was there, needs to be unveiled before we go ANY further here...

woobs
09-04-2014, 01:00 PM
I hope I have not changed or distorted any facts! I have been up front that this entire exercise is born of conjecture and reasoning.

I don't think anybody believes that the 16 production can be stated with any certainty whatsoever. Definitely not looking for a bible. But, we do know boats were made during this time... and there are little chunks of information that tease us :)

So like a forensic detective I think we have done as good a job as possible with the given information to generate a plausible, yet rough estimate of what the production was (or was purported to be). That rough estimate CAN get more accurate with more details or data points... to which Matty holds the keys :)

Personally, I don't care which hull # was at the Jax show... it was the first one produced! But, the circumstances and landscape at that time can be accounted for so, ...At the same time reasoning is applied to estimate how many 1964 boats could have been made +/- a few. Now we have a theory and we need to look for proof to support it. Lots of fun huh? :)

mattyboy
09-05-2014, 08:49 AM
Woobs

I have no issue with with selecting a specific part of one of my posts to quote as long as you put .................. before or after to let the reader know that there is more that I have said and this is only part of it. Iam okay with that

what I am not okay with is editing contracting altering my quotes pictures or documents especially removing the LGDCC trade/water mark.

We know more today than we did yesterday. I started tracking 16 info back in the early 00's when i had mine we have learned alot since then and we have found milestones with boats and production methods. I keep tracking the info and now have added other models. We have partnered with The museum at Mystic to keep the history and mystique of these boats and their creators alive for the public.

I will keep doing that as I enjoy it but when trying to share it on the interweb I want to keep it as factual as possible and to make sure that credit goes where credit is due. So when a trademark/watermark is removed or any other below board cyber behavior is displayed it really irks me.

The club always shares whatever info or knowledge it has with it's members or anyone who may need it for their classic. That's what we have our site which is back up but i need to tweak some things seems with all the traffic and some of the larger records manuals and such need to be re worked a bit

If we can confirm things great just saying they are confirmed doesn't do anyone any good.

Of course somethings may never be confirmed in stone , they may be a most likely thing or urban legend . again I always say Don and his boats were very much the Babe Ruth of the powerboat world a lot of fact a lot of popularity and a lot of legend and myth.

woobs
09-05-2014, 09:41 AM
No worries Matty.

Just to be clear- I have not reproduced LGDC photos and have not removed any watermarks/ trademarks. I have not confirmed any conjecture as fact. Neither have I edited/altered your quotes to change the meaning. (although I'd sometimes like to edit your punctuation sentence structure, spelling and grammar :) ) just kidding, it's all good ! :)

Yes, I enjoy going over this stuff too but, it's difficult when you don't have direct access. You have been over this stuff many times and you presentation to a 3rd party may be subject to your interpretation e.g. hull # XXX made in the fall , later to clarify, it was June. so I ask more questions...

I also don't want to seem like a pest with incessant questions. I'm sure you have other areas of the hobby you enjoy other than the education of relative newbies. Although as keeper of the grail (existing records) it's hard not to impose on you. I appreciate it and the results are on this site for others.

Thanks for all your help (and passion) with regards to these boats. It sure keeps it interesting and fresh while I can't afford to actually work on my own 16 project. It is also interesting to go through these bits of information to assemble a feeling for just what went on back in the day.

mattyboy
09-05-2014, 10:44 AM
Woobs
Yes i know no worries that part of my post was not directed at you

mattyboy
09-09-2014, 06:55 PM
the bottom was changed on the 16 SkiSporter over it's lifespan.The inner strakes were shortened to give the volvo I/O clean water then sometime in the early 70's skisporters are seen with longer inner strakes


you can form your own theory on how long it took them to find that out . they started Donzi mid 64 and by Nov 64 they had 5 race boats ready to run in the 64 Miami key west race 4 28s and 1 19.

Tomron posted a pic of what is believed to be hull 1 it is seen in the press photo collection look carefully at the bottom it has long inner strakes and all of the early press photos show no grab rail.

the more i think of this the more I think that 16 production in 64 is under 10 and probably autumn boats

if you look at the pic of the 16 on the trailer closely you will see some items that were never done once production started rolling

woobs
09-09-2014, 10:27 PM
On my early hull (1965/6?) the inner strakes are 55" from the transom.

I support the theory that when lengthened, they not only help get more hull out of the water; they help to combat chine walking in the area around 55 - 60ish mph. The early production boats never went that fast so it wasn't an issue... until the 70's.
80788

mattyboy
09-10-2014, 07:06 AM
chine walk is strictly a prop issue my short straked 16 chine walked with all but two of my props. Those two props were more modern designs and allowed me to get to high 50's and even a solid 60 mph with no chinewalk or ill handling issues.

as prop technology advanced it allowed them to re-design the bottom. I had a chance to talk to Walt Walters about the changes made to the 16 . The first volvo boats had a real issue with aerated water from the inner strakes. He shortened them to resolve the problem and give the volvo clean water.

Now look at that 16 in the black and white press photo it has long strakes with an early aq200 and a 2 blade prop this has to be the first. When they ran and tested it they found the issue. So now they are ramping up racing operations and racing production and also testing the 16 in about a 5 month period so my feeling is production numbers are single digit.

Anyone notice the differences on that boat from standard production boats?

Greg Guimond
09-10-2014, 07:33 AM
Rants over? Here is how I see the 1964 builds. Ten 16 Ski Sporters actually built in 1964 would be too few in IMO. When you look back through the archives there are several comments about 1964 owners. When I exchanged notes with Allan Brown he indicated that the Jax boat would have probably been hull three or four. Where the confusion might lie is that the November 1964 Jax show boat was in fact the first 16 with the brand new Volvo Aquamatic 200 drive. Fred Darwick also owned a Volvo 16 Ski Sporter that he bought in 1964 and won the Miami 9 Hour Endurance Race with his wife as co-pilot. They covered 345 miles which is friggin impressive considering that the most I have ever clocked in one day is 250ish. That particular race took place on January 2nd, 1965. When tacking these early car motor boats the description language has to be very precise. For example Mr. Darwick's 1964 16 Ski Sporter had an Aquameter Speedometer as the only accessory.

woobs
09-10-2014, 07:39 AM
... I had a chance to talk to Walt Walters about the changes made to the 16 . The first volvo boats had a real issue with aerated water from the inner strakes. He shortened them to resolve the problem and give the volvo clean water....

...So now they are ramping up racing operations and racing production and also testing the 16 in about a 5 month period so my feeling is production numbers are single digit.

That's very interesting info from Walt. I have read several articles on hull design that say strakes have no play with the drive as long as they are not in a direct line with the drive (and give some outwards margin). The exception would be in tight turns but, this is not a design priority for 60mph. X dimension also plays a relative part. But, Walt is THE expert so, I'll go with his statement!

As to the '64 production of 16's. This is all in how you want to look at it and draw your conclusions. I'm pretty comfortable with at least 15 boats + or - a couple. I base this on the business and logistical needs to get a boat in the show for mid-November and the very unlikely event of an empty 16 mould sitting around idle at this time.

While they may have been putting great effort in on the racing side, I'm positive that the retail side of the new business did not grind to a halt. I'm not saying they were at production capacity (it was probably reduced) but, I'm sure they were working steady. As there are no records, whether it was 10 or twenty boats is really of no consequence. Suffice it to say that it is a small number.

mattyboy
09-10-2014, 09:50 AM
The 110/200 is released in 1963

The press shoot boat has no dash plate it has the gauges cut directly into the dash you can see the aqua meter speedo to the starboard of the helm and the deck stripe continues down on the dash. Production boats have the speedo on the port side of the helm and the deck stripe stops on the deck. The speedo move is Most likely to make room for the dash plate

Mid 64 Don sells formula to thunderbird boats and starts up Donzi Marine

I don't think there is any retail operations to speak of until " those damn Donzi's " appear in the nov 64 Miami key west race and finish second then get the first Win 3 months later in the Sam Griffith. Then they are swamped with orders

Be interested to know what side the speedo was on Fred Darwicks 16

Greg Guimond
09-10-2014, 04:29 PM
The 110/200 is released in 1963. Be interested to know what side the speedo was on Fred Darwicks 16

I believe that you're wrong as it relates to Donzi generally and the 16 Ski Sporter specifically. That Volvo Penta combination with the gas 110hp motor and the 200 outboard drive was not available in the US in 1963. Branded by Volvo under the Aquamatic Programme as the "Aquamatic 110/200", it was not in the US until 1964 and was added to the existing 110/100 product offering.

Be interested to know what you have that shows 1963.

mattyboy
09-10-2014, 04:58 PM
I believe that you're wrong as it relates to Donzi generally and the 16 Ski Sporter specifically. That Volvo Penta combination with the gas 110hp motor and the 200 outboard drive was not available in the US in 1963. Branded by Volvo under the Aquamatic Programme as the "Aquamatic 110/200", it was not in the US until 1964 and was added to the existing 110/100 product offering.

Be interested to know what you have that shows 1963.

Greg if I'm wrong you must have the info readily available and have the info so post it up.

still see you like editing my quotes :rolleyes:

Greg Guimond
09-10-2014, 05:27 PM
Where did I edit your quotes? I just shortened it as I'm just replying back to your exact wording on the part of your post that was somewhat of interest to me. I must have missed the board elders rule #6 that says that can't be done :)

Greg Guimond
09-10-2014, 05:34 PM
So Greg what can you bring to the table? How did you confirm that the Jax boat show 16 was hull 3? Or is that just conjecture on your part?

Matty, I asked Mr. Brown and he told me that he thought that the Jax 16 Ski Sporter was the 3rd or 4th 16 hull. I thought it was nice of him to respond seeing as he was there and it makes sense if you think it through as Fred Darwick's 1964 16 Ski Sporter had the less beefy 110/100 combination.

woobs
09-10-2014, 05:49 PM
I have no problem squaring that hull 3 or 4 may have been the first one actually finished.

That satisfies both positions :) . In fact it lends credence to the possibility of more, rather than less '64 production boats as they started well before the November show. Oooooh I'm feelin' 15 is solid!!! :) :) :)

woobs
09-10-2014, 10:13 PM
MY APOPOGIES!!!

I was just re-reading through all my 16 data and came across the Roy Farmer statement... He was not talking about clamshell vents when referring to the first 100 boats. He said if it has an EATON drive it was probably built within the first 100 boats.

I mis-represented Roy Farmers statement (not intentionally) and for that, I am sorry.

At least this clears up that conflict of information on clamshells. Can we conclude that no Eaton boat had clamshells from the factory... probably.

mattyboy
09-11-2014, 01:51 PM
MY APOPOGIES!!!

I was just re-reading through all my 16 data and came across the Roy Farmer statement... He was not talking about clamshell vents when referring to the first 100 boats. He said if it has an EATON drive it was probably built within the first 100 boats.

I mis-represented Roy Farmers statement (not intentionally) and for that, I am sorry.

At least this clears up that conflict of information on clamshells. Can we conclude that no Eaton boat had clamshells from the factory... probably.

so how do we track that info with hulls 55,136,145 and 226 were all eaton???


Greg I have tracked a ton of info on the 16 I think I have a good handle on the entire model line up


the info I have on Volvo Penta is from their interactive engine database on their website their documentation is just like their drives very stout

the end of life for the 100 drive is 1963 the replacement 200 is released in 1963 it is for the new aq 180 8 cyl but the drive is used on other smaller offerings


some more data points

the pic of Wynne and Brownie running 2 16s side by side show Wynne in a volvo 4 banger 200 drive and Brownie in a 165 eaton this pic has been seen on this site with handwritten notes show it has the first two 16s

Fred's aq 100 must be an early 16 and was rigged from existing stock surplus , hull 3 or 4 is a 200 as you have confirmed thru Brownie that boat according to him was white with a blue stripe the 16 Wynne is driving is white with a red stripe so there are two early aq 200 boats less than hull 5 if info posted here is correct on those boats

BUIZILLA
09-11-2014, 02:32 PM
Fred Darwick is pretty easy to get ahold of..

Morgan's Cloud
09-11-2014, 02:51 PM
Matty , here's a question for you .
Where does the Hornet/St T fit into all of this talk about the first Donzi ever built ?
If they were producing them at the same time at the very start is it not possible that a Hornet or a St T could be in the first 20 or so boats built ?

mattyboy
09-11-2014, 03:14 PM
MC Exactly

that is the point i am trying to make that there were a ton of irons in the fire at that time and racing was the top dog in 64 then production takes over after the race operations make the name DONZI a household name. So 64 production is very limited then in 65 the **** hits the fan

I would think the hornet production didn't start until 65 same for St T's They could maybe pop a 16 or two for quick turn around but the turn around for the 19 was 12 weeks .

Brownie took 8th in the Nov 64 running of the Miami Key west race in a hornet 19 race boat so that lead to the marketing for the 7 litre as a proven ocean racer with big power capable of speeds approaching 70 mph

the other issue I have is the time to find out and fix the issue with the strakes on the 16 with the volvo how long does that take?

then how does the R&D time on the 18 which debuts in 65 factor in

Greg Guimond
09-11-2014, 03:28 PM
so how do we track that info with hulls 55,136,145 and 226 were all eaton???


Greg I have tracked a ton of info on the 16 I think I have a good handle on the entire model line up


the info I have on Volvo Penta is from their interactive engine database on their website their documentation is just like their drives very stout

the end of life for the 100 drive is 1963 the replacement 200 is released in 1963 it is for the new aq 180 8 cyl but the drive is used on other smaller offerings


some more data points

the pic of Wynne and Brownie running 2 16s side by side show Wynne in a volvo 4 banger 200 drive and Brownie in a 165 eaton this pic has been seen on this site with handwritten notes show it has the first two 16s

Fred's aq 100 must be an early 16 and was rigged from existing stock surplus , hull 3 or 4 is a 200 as you have confirmed thru Brownie that boat according to him was white with a blue stripe the 16 Wynne is driving is white with a red stripe so there are two early aq 200 boats less than hull 5 if info posted here is correct on those boats

Matty, I decided to reply to your entire post and not shorten it just this one time. The only way to properly sort things out to the best of everyone's knowledge is to start with 1964's only. We all agree that there were no more than (20) 16 Ski Sporters built in 1964 and more likely around (15) or fewer. Build out a little database for just 1964. That would be easy and then you can populate it and ask others to add color and snippets of information. Before you know it, you'll have a pretty good (or much better) idea of 1964.

mattyboy
09-11-2014, 04:22 PM
Matty, I decided to reply to your entire post and not shorten it just this one time. The only way to properly sort things out to the best of everyone's knowledge is to start with 1964's only. We all agree that there were no more than (20) 16 Ski Sporters built in 1964 and more likely around (15) or fewer. Build out a little database for just 1964. That would be easy and then you can populate it and ask others to add color and snippets of information. Before you know it, you'll have a pretty good (or much better) idea of 1964.

what's with the "you" have enough on my plate this is a french job "WE" but i will start it off and others can fill in the blanks in the line up and if other players are known add them

the Players

Brownies show boat white blue with a volvo 200
Jim Wynnes white red boat with a volvo 200
Brownies white green with eaton
white blue eaton boat listed here for sale as hull 4
Fred Darwick volvo 110/100 boat
white red volvo boat in the tenikens magazine
white press shot boat with dark stripe on trailer volvo 200


the line up/ date

hull 1.
hull 2.
hull 3.
hull 4.
hull 5.
hull 6.
hull 7.
hull 8.
hull 9.
hull 10.
hull 11.
hull 12.
hull 13.
hull 14.
hull 15.

mattyboy
09-11-2014, 04:29 PM
here is my line up

3 .Brownies show boat white blue with a volvo 200
2. Jim Wynnes white red boat with a volvo 200
5. Brownies white green with eaton
4. white blue eaton boat listed here for sale as hull 4
7.Fred Darwick volvo 110/100 boat
6.white red volvo boat in the tenikens magazine
1. white press shot boat with dark stripe on trailer volvo 200

this is just spitballing

Greg Guimond
09-13-2014, 11:15 AM
Woobs

I have no issue with with selecting a specific part of one of my posts to quote as long as you put .................. before or after to let the reader know that there is more that I have said and this is only part of it. Iam okay with that

what I am not okay with is editing contracting altering my quotes pictures or documents especially removing the LGDCC trade/water mark.

We know more today than we did yesterday. I started tracking 16 info back in the early 00's when i had mine we have learned alot since then and we have found milestones with boats and production methods. I keep tracking the info and now have added other models. We have partnered with The museum at Mystic to keep the history and mystique of these boats and their creators alive for the public.

I will keep doing that as I enjoy it but when trying to share it on the interweb I want to keep it as factual as possible and to make sure that credit goes where credit is due. So when a trademark/watermark is removed or any other below board cyber behavior is displayed it really irks me.

The club always shares whatever info or knowledge it has with it's members or anyone who may need it for their classic. That's what we have our site which is back up but i need to tweak some things seems with all the traffic and some of the larger records manuals and such need to be re worked a bit

If we can confirm things great just saying they are confirmed doesn't do anyone any good.

Of course somethings may never be confirmed in stone , they may be a most likely thing or urban legend . again I always say Don and his boats were very much the Babe Ruth of the powerboat world a lot of fact a lot of popularity and a lot of legend and myth.

Matty, one thing I'm still trying to wrap my head around is how, for almost 10 years, you and others thought that the Jax show boat was the first Ski Sporter? To track the 1964 builds I think we need to get a better starting point, trying to narrow things down. For example, I'm sure we all agree that the Wyn Mil boat has no place in a 16 Ski Sporter conversation other than the incubation of an incredibly fantastic idea.
We also know, because of your extensive research, that Don Aronow was far more consumed with winning races in the first six months of 1964. So that brings us up to July 1, 1964. We then know, because of me, that the Jax 16 boat was #3, or #4 out of the Ski Sporter mold.

So for forensics fun are we all comfortable that only the mold, for what would soon become the "First" Ski Sporter 16, was being fabricated and finalized in July 1964? That sounds about right, but you might have some more insights on what was going on in the 3rd Quarter of 1964 - July, August, September. What might have been happening in July 1964 on the front end, and the probable (15) Ski Sporters being built by December 31, 1964 on the back end gives a little better framework for the thread.

mattyboy
09-13-2014, 02:38 PM
Matty, one thing I'm still trying to wrap my head around is how, for almost 10 years, you and others thought that the Jax show boat was the first Ski Sporter? To track the 1964 builds I think we need to get a better starting point, trying to narrow things down. For example, I'm sure we all agree that the Wyn Mil boat has no place in a 16 Ski Sporter conversation other than the incubation of an incredibly fantastic idea.
We also know, because of your extensive research, that Don Aronow was far more consumed with winning races in the first six months of 1964. So that brings us up to July 1, 1964. We then know, because of me, that the Jax 16 boat was #3, or #4 out of the Ski Sporter mold.

So for forensics fun are we all comfortable that only the mold, for what would soon become the "First" Ski Sporter 16, was being fabricated and finalized in July 1964? That sounds about right, but you might have some more insights on what was going on in the 3rd Quarter of 1964 - July, August, September. What might have been happening in July 1964 on the front end, and the probable (15) Ski Sporters being built by December 31, 1964 on the back end gives a little better framework for the thread.

Greg going on what Brownie posted here saying it was the first production donzi and with the fact that early hulls may not have numbers at all it was considered hull one. please see posts 6 and 18 from Brownie in this thread. What part of that can't you get around your head????

not sure where you are getting your timeframe from Greg and if you do have supported facts please post them up . The time frame I have on Donzi startup is from TKOTBR from Don's son Michael . He states Donzi started MID 1964 after the sale of Formula to Thunderbird boats . so it started in June not Jan. so does your timeframe still work???
That leads me to my next point ...........

other time frame issues I have is time of production start to finish of the 28 and 19 and manpower needed for these???? I have factory correspondence saying 12 weeks on the 19. Now granted the first of these are race boats so fit and finish are not real important but the time saved there is spent on fine tuning and getting setup to run fast. the records on some 28 show it took months just to rig them at 188th st The 28 was not built on 188th it was popped from the molds offsite and put together then taken to 188th st to be rigged. So can they get 1 19 and 4 28 raceboats built rigged tested and tuned for a Nov 64 race while building the 16 then rebuilding the mold to fix problems??

I wonder if Fred's 16 was an old demo or prototype boat with a 100 then sold as retail when not needed, that happened all the time either a consignment boat or old demo boat getting sold some months or years after it was made.

This list is there if you have confirmed hull numbers fill in database

the Early Don time line from TKOTBR
Formula 63-64
Donzi 64-66
Magnum 66-68

Greg Guimond
09-13-2014, 04:28 PM
Nothin but rain today ........ bummer

January? I said that July 1964 sounded "about right". You are saying Mike Aronow said June 1964 was startup so we agree. :) .. My question was if there were any archive snippets about what the factory might have been doing in July, August, September the 3rd Quarter of 1964 around the Ski Sporter 16 only not the other models.

Greg Guimond
09-13-2014, 04:43 PM
I'm awaiting grease marking pics for what is claimed to be Ski Sporter 16 Hull #8.

mattyboy
09-14-2014, 11:19 AM
Nothin but rain today ........ bummer

January? I said that July 1964 sounded "about right". You are saying Mike Aronow said June 1964 was startup so we agree. :) .. My question was if there were any archive snippets about what the factory might have been doing in July, August, September the 3rd Quarter of 1964 around the Ski Sporter 16 only not the other models.


Greg
again have you read Michael's book? There is a passage in the end of the chapter on Formula That production on the formula 23 ended in Don's 188th st shop in late 64 , But Don, Dave, Jim, and Walt were busy with raceboat operations and they were working on new designs "that would rock the powerboat world" so I would say their plate was full with finishing up the formulas to get them out of the shop so they could have room to work on the new designs . So the sale to thunderbird was done mid 64 and new production of the 23 would be at thunderbird but it looks like they had boats to complete on hand at 188th st. Again the focus is on racing in the 3rd quarter and that no real attention is given to the 16 until very late 64 and by early first quarter 65 they go viral. In june or july of 64 Donzi gets it's name from Don's friend Morris Levy

I hope hull 8 was made by bill he is the only one I have seen who took the time to put the date on the boats most I have seen are just model and number looking fwd to the pics

woobs
09-15-2014, 09:14 PM
Does anyone know if the Ski Sporter was the first boat to have a "lounge seating" arrangement?

dsparis
09-15-2014, 09:47 PM
I'm awaiting grease marking pics for what is claimed to be Ski Sporter 16 Hull #8.

I'm still waiting to hear from Dr. Lou :boat:

Greg Guimond
09-15-2014, 09:54 PM
I hope hull 8 was made by bill. he is the only one I have seen who took the time to put the date on the boats. most I have seen are just model and number. looking fwd to the pics

I tend to doubt that 'ol "Bill" would have been around for the first 15 hulls built in 1964. If he had been, I suspect some grease pencil markings would have shown up. That said, I was happy to find these valuable pictures, even though they don't help with 1964 Ski Sporter hulls built specifically :frown:

mattyboy
09-16-2014, 07:24 AM
I tend to doubt that 'ol "Bill" would have been around for the first 15 hulls built in 1964. If he had been, I suspect some grease pencil markings would have shown up. That said, I was happy to find these valuable pictures, even though they don't help with 1964 Ski Sporter hulls built specifically :frown:


Greg

we have not proved, confirm, or validated in anyway shape or form that 15 hulls were built in 64. The more I read and research that number looks like it getting is smaller and smaller. With it's public debut in Nov of 64 Jax and Jan of 65 NYC they were marketed for the model year 65, The same time frame as Donzi Making it's mark in the race world. I just can't see getting 15 hulls out of the mold with everything else going on with the start up of DONZI's first 5 or 6 months

I have seen other notes written on boats like the make and color of the gel maybe Bill needed to to keep things straight.

Greg Guimond
09-16-2014, 07:35 AM
Matty, are you thinking (10) built by 12/31/64 ?

woobs
09-16-2014, 08:19 AM
Greg
we have not proved, confirm, or validated in anyway shape or form that 15 hulls were built in 64. The more I read and research that number looks like it getting is smaller and smaller. With it's public debut in Nov of 64 Jax and Jan of 65 NYC they were marketed for the model year 65, The same time frame as Donzi Making it's mark in the race world. I just can't see getting 15 hulls out of the mold with everything else going on with the start up of DONZI's first 5 or 6 months
I have seen other notes written on boats like the make and color of the gel maybe Bill needed to to keep things straight.

Matt, lets be straight though, as there is no evidence that approximately 15 boats were not produced either. You are making assumptions (as I did) about business activity and production potential at the time. I understand your preoccupation with the racing activities however, prudent logistics planning lends to the ability, need and potential to make at least 15 boats (give or take). I don't believe racing and production were (or are) mutually exclusive. It's your opinion, and I'm not questioning your Historian status. I am coming from a point of view of someone that is familiar with production, logistics and business practices that holds a contrary position.

Of course they were marketed as '65 models... the world debut was in November. If they had been building them for months they would have still been '65 MY boats. So this has no bearing on numbers.

It's clear with the Jax show mid November that the show hull was not pulled the night before. It is not clear how far in advance this hull was pulled; and if they had so much on their plate, I'd venture to say it was earlier rather than later. Especially if they planned on going racing at that time. The chances of an idle mould sitting during a time of startup is also pretty thin.

Do you have any pay records from Donzi of that era? Do we know how many employees there were? Full-time, temp?

mattyboy
09-16-2014, 12:15 PM
Woobs
Have you read Michael's book?

mattyboy
09-16-2014, 03:26 PM
Matt, lets be straight though, as there is no evidence that approximately 15 boats were not produced either. You are making assumptions (as I did) about business activity and production potential at the time. I understand your preoccupation with the racing activities however, prudent logistics planning lends to the ability, need and potential to make at least 15 boats (give or take). I don't believe racing and production were (or are) mutually exclusive. It's your opinion, and I'm not questioning your Historian status. I am coming from a point of view of someone that is familiar with production, logistics and business practices that holds a contrary position.

Of course they were marketed as '65 models... the world debut was in November. If they had been building them for months they would have still been '65 MY boats. So this has no bearing on numbers.

It's clear with the Jax show mid November that the show hull was not pulled the night before. It is not clear how far in advance this hull was pulled; and if they had so much on their plate, I'd venture to say it was earlier rather than later. Especially if they planned on going racing at that time. The chances of an idle mould sitting during a time of startup is also pretty thin.

Do you have any pay records from Donzi of that era? Do we know how many employees there were? Full-time, temp?

just a few questions on production

when was work first started on the 16 plug?

How long does it take to re work an existing plug changing deck LOA and transom features?

Once the plug is complete how long does it take to complete a mold

how long does it take a new model boat to go from gel in the mold to invoiced at Donzi in 64

at what company did Don Aronow practice production comes first then sell then race third?
A. Formula
B. Donzi
C. Magnum
D Cigarette Racing
E. USA Racing

Think if we have answers pretty close on the above you can get an Idea of the of how many 16s they could have gotten out in the first 6 months of their existence


and don't think they were not rigging boats the night before a show to get them ready, Walt Confirmed that

mattyboy
09-16-2014, 03:27 PM
Does anyone know if the Ski Sporter was the first boat to have a "lounge seating" arrangement?

earlier non-Donzi designs had this seating arrangement

woobs
09-16-2014, 03:53 PM
Woobs
Have you read Michael's book?

Nope. Is it gospel?

mattyboy
09-16-2014, 04:01 PM
Nope. Is it gospel?

no but it does give some good accurate insight to what Don was up to at each of his companies.

woobs
09-16-2014, 05:43 PM
no but it does give some good accurate insight to what Don was up to at each of his companies.

Really? How old was Michael in 1964? 14? 15? While I don't doubt the information is as close as you can get to the source, I can't buy into that much operational detail from the memories of a 15ish year old. If there are other sources he used to "jog" his memory for the book they might be a better source for details. Then you have to look at Michaels point of view and motivation for writing the book. How much is a tribute and spreading the legend of his father, rather than performing a forensic account of the operations of each company.

I'm told the book is a good read and certainly gives insight to the life of his father. How specific that is for research purposes.... well it probably was not written with that in mind. At any rate I see them over $300 used so, I will not be buying a copy anytime soon.

If my "secret Santa" sends me a copy... I'll guarantee I'll read it.

mattyboy
09-16-2014, 05:56 PM
Really? How old was Michael in 1964? 14? 15? While I don't doubt the information is as close as you can get to the source, I can't buy into that much operational detail from the memories of a 15ish year old. If there are other sources he used to "jog" his memory for the book they might be a better source for details. Then you have to look at Michaels point of view and motivation for writing the book. How much is a tribute and spreading the legend of his father, rather than performing a forensic account of the operations of each company.

I'm told the book is a good read and certainly gives insight to the life of his father. How specific that is for research purposes.... well it probably was not written with that in mind. At any rate I see them over $300 used so, I will not be buying a copy anytime soon.

If my "secret Santa" sends me a copy... I'll guarantee I'll read it.


the factual part of the book seems to be accurate as far as race records and general dates are concerned those are confirmed by other sources and a matter of public record. It is not only Michael's side of the story but the side of the story from people very close to Don in the powerboat world. Example Dick Genth was acknowledged for his contributions to the book, he purchased Formula from Don in 64. Yes there are tall tales some funny insights . Don was a larger than life personality the stories are great but there are some facts there as well.

I think your background in production and business practices may be holding you back from seeing the barnstorming, shoot from the hip style that was going on at 188th st back in the day.

the questions remain unanswered.

woobs
09-16-2014, 09:17 PM
I don't think I'm being held back.
My position is we just don't know. It could have been 10 boats (or less)made; it could have been 15 (or more). We need to find more hard evidence before trying to nail a statement.

mattyboy
09-17-2014, 06:25 AM
My first question is KEY
That gives you a good idea of the time line of the 16

mattyboy
09-17-2014, 02:48 PM
when was work first started on the 16 plug?

The answer to this is more involved with Dick Genth than Don Aronow.

Genth wanted the 17 foot formula junior molds as well as the 23 molds for thunderbird when he wanted to purchase Formula. Don was hesitant about including the 17 footer. Don had a feeling about it and did not want to sell the molds to the jr . Genth persisted and also raised the purchase price Don let the jr molds go with the sale but kept the plug. They reworked the plug shortened it a little and put a new transom and deck on what would become the skisporter. Don hit the market first while formula was bogged down in 23 production to start on the JR .

So work on the 16 starts mid 64 If Genth had not gotten his way what we know as the 16 skisporter ,would be a Formula JR maybe called the Donzi jr.

another reason Don wanted to sell formula was the production boats were taking up too much time and space in the shop and kept him away from doing what he wanted, developing bigger faster new designs.

Greg Guimond
09-17-2014, 03:24 PM
I believe that Walt Walters drew the final lines for the Donzi Ski Sporter 16 on May 18, 1964. He then refined the bottom's lifting strake drawings on June 15, 1964. Exactly 5 months later to the day (Nov 15) was the Jacksonville Boat Show. A lot can get done in five months.

mattyboy
09-17-2014, 03:28 PM
I believe that Walt Walters drew the final lines for the Donzi Ski Sporter 16 on May 18, 1964. He then refined the bottom's lifting strake drawings on June 15, 1964. Exactly 5 months later to the day (Nov 15) was the Jacksonville Boat Show. A lot can get done in five months.

and the plan and overview is dated the end of June 64 ok so If it took Walt a month to make the changes on paper how long to construct the plug?

HallJ
09-19-2014, 12:55 PM
when was work first started on the 16 plug?

The answer to this is more involved with Dick Genth than Don Aronow.

Genth wanted the 17 foot formula junior molds as well as the 23 molds for thunderbird when he wanted to purchase Formula. Don was hesitant about including the 17 footer. Don had a feeling about it and did not want to sell the molds to the jr . Genth persisted and also raised the purchase price Don let the jr molds go with the sale but kept the plug. They reworked the plug shortened it a little and put a new transom and deck on what would become the skisporter. Don hit the market first while formula was bogged down in 23 production to start on the JR .

So work on the 16 starts mid 64 If Genth had not gotten his way what we know as the 16 skisporter ,would be a Formula JR maybe called the Donzi jr.

another reason Don wanted to sell formula was the production boats were taking up too much time and space in the shop and kept him away from doing what he wanted, developing bigger faster new designs.

Slight correction, It was Merrick Lewis who bought Formula not Dick Genth. Dick Managed a few of Merrick's Marine based companies.

Jeff

mattyboy
09-19-2014, 03:52 PM
Jeff
Michaels book said it was Genth of thunderbird boats who negotiated the deal. I guess that would be more accurate

HallJ
09-19-2014, 06:29 PM
That sounds correct. After Don Sold Donzi, Walt did lots of work For Merrick's various companies. Thunderbird, Formula, Maritime.
He even did a hydrofoil for Maritime.
Of course Jim took credit for it :)

Jeff

Greg Guimond
09-20-2014, 06:39 AM
I believe that Walt Walters drew the final lines for the Donzi Ski Sporter 16 on May 18, 1964. He then refined the bottom's lifting strake drawings on June 15, 1964. Exactly 5 months later to the day (Nov 15) was the Jacksonville Boat Show. A lot can get done in five months.


and the plan and overview is dated the end of June 64 ok so If it took Walt a month to make the changes on paper how long to construct the plug?

Hmmm. Good point given they did not store things on CAD back in 1964. So Merrick Lewis buys Formula as Jeff points out in mid 1964. Walt Walters then draws the lines to the first Ski Sporter 16 on May 18, 1964. Walt refines the lifting strakes and re-draws those on June 15, 1964.

What is the specific date on the Ski Sporter "overview" drawing Matty?

mattyboy
09-20-2014, 08:41 AM
Greg
June 30 64 if i recall correctly

so now the question is if paper plans are finalized by July 1st how long does it take to finalize the plug then make the molds? Logistics have been mentioned and I know you want to talk just 16 but that is not possible as they were tooling up for 2 other models at this time as well as the 16. I would imagine that the drawings for the 28 and 19 are also in the same basic time frame.

so what is the time frame to get the little odds and ends together like a pattern for the interior and to have it made, the jigs and templates needed to start to "mass" produce. I don't know exact numbers of employees at the time but Michael mentions by 65 there were a ton of people at the little shop. In 4 months we know they had 4 28 raceboats and one 18 raceboat for the Nov race. In 64 what would they have maybe 25 or so employees including the "Boys". the raceboats don't need retail interiors and fit and finish just basic power and rigging although some 28s have internal ballast systems to help with ride and performance.

Don was always race first win and production sales will come. In 65 Don breaks off some people into another shop to work on the 35 and with the teleflex sale he now has corp money to support his racing/design operations.

Jeff
Walt told a story about the 28 when we were at the Mystic museum. We were flipping thru the drawings he donated and Walt would tell little stories about why and how of each design. He said he was working on the 28 and was at the drafting table working on the 28 line drawings. Don came over picked up a pencil and drew in new lines for the top deck. Walt said he was shocked and ticked all at the same time . We said you must have been angry then with a big smile he said I was for a little while but he said Don was right he had a picture in his head of what it should look like and the boat was much better looking with Don lines.

It is amazing how much Walt was involved in a lot of designs from a lot of different companies

gcarter
09-20-2014, 11:15 AM
Actually, y'all are missing a step.....after the lines plans are finished, and offsets are taken off and tabulated, the information has to lofted on a wood floor full scale. This is where the glitches are removed and certain lines will be smoothed.
I've actually been through this process several times, and I can tell you, it's not fast.
Then the offset table is corrected, the sections are transferred to sheets of plywood, the plywood frames set up on a strongback, the plug planked, corrected some more, and finished.
I've not been through the plug making process, but I have been through the design and lofting process.
I don't know, and haven't met Walt, but I would suspect Walt's design for the 16 was pretty far along before the official process actually began.
Walt has admitted he did a lot of copying of the work Ray Hunt did for Dick Bertram. I would suspect Walt had a number of designs semi-complete and ready to finish for a potential customer.

Greg Guimond
09-20-2014, 03:01 PM
Greg, June 30 '64 if i recall correctly

Matty, lets wrestle this particular date to the ground 100% before we move on in creating the 16 timeline.

The May 18th and June 15th 1964 dates are 100% historically verified. I have seen several versions of the final "plan view" with later dates but I suspect that you have something in your archive that might show a 1964 Walt Walters handwritten date stamp. To me, June 30 sounds a little aggressive given your correct assumptions around the other two models Walters was drawing. I'd like to get a firm date on the Ski Sporters plan view if possible.

Based on Mr. Carters knowledge and comment, my earlier personal thought of (15) 1964 hulls being built is now sounding less and less probable. I might move my number once I have a plan view "date stamp" on deck.

Morgan's Cloud
09-20-2014, 03:57 PM
Actually, y'all are missing a step.....after the lines plans are finished, and offsets are taken off and tabulated, the information has to lofted on a wood floor full scale. This is where the glitches are removed and certain lines will be smoothed.
I've actually been through this process several times, and I can tell you, it's not fast.
Then the offset table is corrected, the sections are transferred to sheets of plywood, the plywood frames set up on a strongback, the plug planked, corrected some more, and finished.
I've not been through the plug making process, but I have been through the design and lofting process.
I don't know, and haven't met Walt, but I would suspect Walt's design for the 16 was pretty far along before the official process actually began.
Walt has admitted he did a lot of copying of the work Ray Hunt did for Dick Bertram. I would suspect Walt had a number of designs semi-complete and ready to finish for a potential customer.


I was going to ask earlier , and besides all of the above , what if the first one out didn't perform to specs ?
Back to the plug and make more changes .
Then more testing .
= More time/delays

Greg Guimond
09-20-2014, 04:29 PM
Slight correction, It was Merrick Lewis who bought Formula not Dick Genth. Dick Managed a few of Merrick's Marine based companies. Jeff


Jeff, Michaels book said it was Genth of thunderbird boats who negotiated the deal. I guess that would be more accurate

Both correct. Merrick Lewis's holding company "Alliance Machine" already owned both Thurnderbird Boats and Maritime Boats which would build the 32' model in early 1965. Merrick was always the money man and wanted to purchase Formula to add to his "stable" because Formula was winning races. Merrick brought in Genth as the front man and when the deal was done and Merrick owned Don A's Formula Boats in mid '64 he and Genth then decided to create Formula Thunderbird.

mattyboy
09-21-2014, 08:58 AM
Matty, lets wrestle this particular date to the ground 100% before we move on in creating the 16 timeline.

The May 18th and June 15th 1964 dates are 100% historically verified. I have seen several versions of the final "plan view" with later dates but I suspect that you have something in your archive that might show a 1964 Walt Walters handwritten date stamp. To me, June 30 sounds a little aggressive given your correct assumptions around the other two models Walters was drawing. I'd like to get a firm date on the Ski Sporters plan view if possible.

Based on Mr. Carters knowledge and comment, my earlier personal thought of (15) 1964 hulls being built is now sounding less and less probable. I might move my number once I have a plan view "date stamp" on deck.

Greg
the final overview plan would have to be after your historically verified dates The drawing I saw had June 30 1964 could there be others with later dates sure as MC states I think things were tweaked a bit as they went along.

As I have been saying the more we look at this the more I feel that if they had 3-6 complete by the end of 64 it was a lot. In full production swing with multiple molds they were able to build a 16 in 5 days but this is with a production schedule to try and keep up with orders This was not right out of the gate. This was also with added manpower and with a seasoned crew with years of familiarity with the process. The first boats out of the mold were a learning curve, the first of their kinds.

woobs
09-21-2014, 10:01 AM
I think if you buy into the theory that no retail boats were produced until after the Nov 15 Jax show, that 5-6 boats could be in the ballpark for the last 5 weeks of the year.

However, I still put stock into the theory that with completed moulds, they were popping hulls before the show. It makes no sense not to... and have the moulds idle.

If you wrap your head around this theory then, the big unknown is how long those moulds were available. If it is anywhere around 8 weeks +/- a week or so, then 10 or so boats is not out of the question even accounting for less than optimum staff working in the factory at a vastly reduced production rate of around one (1ish) Ski Sporter per week.

(I think we earlier established the peak averaged near 16 boats completed per month... = 4 per week)

Greg Guimond
09-21-2014, 11:13 AM
Greg, the final overview plan would have to be after your historically verified dates The drawing I saw had June 30 1964. could there be others with later dates sure as MC states I think things were tweaked a bit as they went along.

Do you have a picture of that final 16 overview with the June 30, 1964 date stamp by chance?

mattyboy
09-22-2014, 09:48 AM
Greg

I have to check all that stuff is on my work PC and I am on vacation no work for a week or so . we flipped thru the drawings with Walt last summer at Mystic.
lot of stuff to take in but that's what i recall.

Greg Guimond
09-24-2014, 07:35 AM
I think if you buy into the theory that no retail boats were produced until after the Nov 15 Jax show, that 5-6 boats could be in the ballpark for the last 5 weeks of the year.

However, I still put stock into the theory that with completed moulds, they were popping hulls before the show. It makes no sense not to... and have the moulds idle. If you wrap your head around this theory then, the big unknown is how long those moulds were available. If it is anywhere around 8 weeks +/- a week or so, then 10 or so boats is not out of the question even accounting for less than optimum staff working in the factory at a vastly reduced production rate of around one (1ish) Ski Sporter per week.

Once Matty gets to his work PC we will know the date of the final plan view. If it is June 30, 1964 that Walt Walters concluded the drawings (I'm still thinking it's later) then you have July and August to do the construction. Using Mr. Carter's comments, I think it would take the month of July to fabricate the wooden plug and have the carpenter adjust it in preparation for the mold. Now, it would take at least the month of August to make the mold for the new Ski Sporter 16. Both of these steps are time consuming to get right.

So now it is September 1, 1964. If Matty substantiates the June 30 final plan, I am dropping from (15) 1964 builds to (10) hulls. To me, the concept of "prototype" is irrelevant for the 16. Although small adjustments were made to the first hulls ever built, the design was 90% what would be seen for years to come so those boats count as 1964s whether or not they were sold retail.

mattyboy
09-24-2014, 08:53 AM
Once Matty gets to his work PC we will know the date of the final plan view. If it is June 30, 1964 that Walt Walters concluded the drawings (I'm still thinking it's later) then you have July and August to do the construction. Using Mr. Carter's comments, I think it would take the month of July to fabricate the wooden plug and have the carpenter adjust it in preparation for the mold. Now, it would take at least the month of August to make the mold for the new Ski Sporter 16. Both of these steps are time consuming to get right.

So now it is September 1, 1964. If Matty substantiates the June 30 final plan, I am dropping from (15) 1964 builds to (10) hulls. To me, the concept of "prototype" is irrelevant for the 16. Although small adjustments were made to the first hulls ever built, the design was 90% what would be seen for years to come so those boats count as 1964s whether or not they were sold retail.

I know you don't want to hear it but if you think the 16 finalizing was later what about the the 28 and 19 tool up ???? If you guys still think racing was not the top dog with Don and retail was his ultimate driving force, Then why is he globe trotting with his 27 Formula in the summer of 64? In August Don is in England and finishes 3rd to 2 bertrams in his 27 formula at the Cowes Torquay . I would Imagine that when he returned it was asses and elbows to get the new 28 ready for the Nov. race. and the upcoming 65 season.

Greg Guimond
09-24-2014, 09:54 AM
Matty, no one is disputing that Don A's focus was on racing. I know the race stuff as well as you. In addition, Don was already plenty rich from his real estate development success in NY Metro and he had just sold Formula to Merrick Lewis so money was no issue. Avoid the other distractions and stay focused on the 16 Ski Sporter timeline ............. :)

A. Lets get a picture of the June 30th date stamp
B. Does it take the month of July to construct a wooden plug?
C. Does it take the full month of August to build the mold for the Ski Sporter?

Greg Guimond
09-24-2014, 02:36 PM
And just to clarify, my July and August is a full month for each because I agree with you that other "stuff" was going on above, beyond, and around the Ski Sporter plug and mold build out. Plus, we already know that Mr. Aronow and Mr. Brown did not shy from chasing a beaver pelt or three which would have also taken away from progress on the Ski Sporter.

All that said, I'm still thinking (10) hulls and Ski Sporter #001 comes out of the mold on Labor Day, or early September 1964 if the "Plan View" is June 30, 1964 :yes:

Greg Guimond
10-02-2014, 09:04 AM
I'm awaiting grease marking pics for what is claimed to be Ski Sporter 16 Hull #8.


and the plan and overview is dated the end of June 64 ok so If it took Walt a month to make the changes on paper how long to construct the plug?

I should have the #8 picture next week. The boat is out on the West Coast. Matty, do you have a picture of the Plan Overview date?

mattyboy
10-02-2014, 09:12 AM
yes on file at Mystic Seaport july 1 64

mattyboy
10-03-2014, 06:59 AM
some other benchmarks

in the design and production timeframe of other donzi models from paper to plastic

the 21 GT
paper plans july 68 boat started in mold Dec 68

the 22 classic style hull Criterion f22 22 2+3
paper plans Sept 77 boat started in mold Feb 78

Now this is when Donzi Marine is out of racing and they are solely setup to sell boats and have years of production under their belts. so it looks like a 5-6 month avg from paper to production. I will say Don probably pushed things a bit quicker maybe 4 months or so . So in Nov there are 3 16 built but I would say not many more are made in 64. I will say after the Nov race/jax show focus changes from race operations to the 16 big time

mattyboy
10-03-2014, 07:17 AM
Matty, lets wrestle this particular date to the ground 100% before we move on in creating the 16 timeline.

The May 18th and June 15th 1964 dates are 100% historically verified. I have seen several versions of the final "plan view" with later dates but I suspect that you have something in your archive that might show a 1964 Walt Walters handwritten date stamp. To me, June 30 sounds a little aggressive given your correct assumptions around the other two models Walters was drawing. I'd like to get a firm date on the Ski Sporters plan view if possible.

Based on Mr. Carters knowledge and comment, my earlier personal thought of (15) 1964 hulls being built is now sounding less and less probable. I might move my number once I have a plan view "date stamp" on deck.

Greg

let's take these dates June 15th and take 4 months and a week or two and you are at the end of OCT this is when you have a completed mold based on the avg shown in my previous post. So production starts in NOV. Logistically speaking the final plan can come later once the offsets are done they can start the plug and once they have the boat out of the mold things like the pattern for the interior can start and plans for the other rigging can come about

Greg Guimond
10-04-2014, 10:12 PM
Staying focused on the 16 Ski Sporter timeline .............

A. Lets get a picture of the June 30th date stamp
B. Does it take the month of July to construct a wooden plug?
C. Does it take the full month of August to build the mold for the Ski Sporter?


some other benchmarks in the design and production timeframe of other donzi models from paper to plastic. the 21 GT
paper plans july 68 boat started in mold Dec 68

Now this is when Donzi Marine is out of racing and they are solely setup to sell boats and have years of production under their belts. so it looks like a 5-6 month avg from paper to production. I will say Don probably pushed things a bit quicker maybe 4 months or so . So in Nov there are 3 16 built but I would say not many more are made in 64. I will say after the Nov race/jax show focus changes from race operations to the 16 big time


Greg

let's take these dates June 15th and take 4 months and a week or two and you are at the end of OCT this is when you have a completed mold based on the avg shown in my previous post. So production starts in NOV. Logistically speaking the final plan can come later once the offsets are done they can start the plug.

I highly doubt there were only (5) Ski Sporter 16s built in 1964. Walt finishes the final "Plan Overview" on July 1, 1964. It would then take a month to build the wooden plug (July) and then say most of the month of August to build the mold. The 16 was not as complicated as some of the other hulls you mentioned earlier. So on September 1, 1964 out comes 16 hull #1 as shown in the black and white photo below, correct Matty? That leaves four months to build Ski Sporters. I still like the number (10) for 1964 builds but certainly no more than that given what I've pieced together. We also know that two hulls were brought to the New York Boat Show in January, 1965 so those would probably have been built in 1964.

Greg Guimond
10-05-2014, 07:33 AM
.
The picture above on the right is from a Swedish race magazine dated July 21, 1965. I believe that specific boat was restored and owned by Thomas Roonberg in Sweden for years. He believed it to be 1964 hull #2 or #3.

Greg Guimond
10-05-2014, 08:00 AM
Here, courtesy of the .org site is a watermarked picture and ad of Fred Darwick's private 1964 Ski Sporter 16. I'm not going to sell the picture lol. Mr. Darwick believes that his hull was #5 or #6. He bought it directly from Don Aronow and he and his wife never attended the Jacksonville show. They won the 9 hour on January 2, 1965 in the Ski Sporter.

Greg Guimond
10-05-2014, 08:09 AM
Donzi was pushing the Ski Sporter and it was noted in this January, 1965 issue of Motor Boating magazine ...........

mattyboy
10-05-2014, 08:21 AM
.
The picture above on the right is from a Swedish race magazine dated July 21, 1965. I believe that specific boat was restored and owned by Thomas Roonberg in Sweden for years. He believed it to be 1964 hull #2 or #3.


Greg

again I love the way you photoshop the photo is from the cover of tekniken varld a Swedish technical magazine that issue also has an article on the new volvo car
Also the two boats on top are different boats so what hull do you think the press photo is on the top left?

the averages I gave you are from two datapoints in Donzi History both under the same ownwership which was geared to marketing and selling production boats. Both models are no more complicated than tooling up for the first time. The 22 was the same hull they had been building for 15 yrs with just a streched nose. The gt was basically a longer 18 with higher sides. The GT was the only boat that needed tooling they could focus on it at the time it was the only new model at that time. The 22 came along at a time when all the other veteran models were coming to end of life no other RnD going on. The 22 would be the model that would carry Donzi for the next 35 yrs. I would think they would want to get it out as quickly as possible


I do not agree with your timeframe of a month to create the plug and a month to create the mold.
If it was the only thing on their plate maybe 3 months for both . The final drawing again can come later once the offsets are done work on the plug can start so use your June date and take 4 months until a boat goes into the mold. So it took them 5-6 months in 68 and 78 to get a new model from paper to plastic but some how I am to believe they could do that in 2 months in 64 with totally new designs in a world were plastic boats were relatively new???

Does anyone know if their was another designer working for Donzi at the time behind the scenes??? That could work on things when all the other key players were out racing??

mattyboy
10-05-2014, 08:39 AM
Greg
no argument on that after the Jax show and their race record in Nov of 64 they went bonkers. That ad about Fred also made it to some of their flyers in 65 and 66

unusual that Fred's hull would have a aq100 and be 5 or 6 and hull 1 or 2 would have an aq 200???? I would think Fred's hull could be the first out of the mold and used as the test platform then sold as they pop a few more out in the end of 64

mattyboy
10-05-2014, 08:52 AM
the boat on the left top and bottom is the same boat this boat is what Thomas in sweden thought was the one that Brownie took to the show. I have stated and truly believe that there was a ton of stuff going on at the factory that the main focus was on racing and getting the last of the formulas out of the factory to have the time and room to focus on the new Donzi line up

look at the 16 on the lift lower left what would those boats in the background be ???? formulas being finished????

Greg Guimond
10-13-2014, 06:43 AM
Greg, I do not agree with your time frame of a month to create the plug and a month to create the mold. If it was the only thing on their plate maybe 3 months for both. The final drawing again can come later once the offsets are done work on the plug can start so use your June date and take 4 months until a boat goes into the mold. So it took them 5-6 months in 68 and 78 to get a new model from paper to plastic but some how I am to believe they could do that in 2 months in 64 with totally new designs in a world were plastic boats were relatively new???

Does anyone know if their was another designer working for Donzi at the time behind the scenes??? That could work on things when all the other key players were out racing??

Matty, you and I have never built a plug nor a mold, I'm just offering my opinion. I don't think what happened in 1968 and 1978 has any real bearing on what happened at Donzi between June 15, 1964 and December 31, 1964 with demanding Don A at the helm. As the historian, if you are trying to figure out how many Ski Sporters were built in 1964 why don't you just call Walt Walters on the phone and ask him if he had an apprentice designer helping out? Or if he remembers Mr. Darwick's purchase of an early 16. You have Walts contact info. Go to the original sources like I have, call him up.

Greg Guimond
10-13-2014, 06:57 AM
I should have the #8 picture next week. The boat is out on the West Coast. Matty, do you have a picture of the Plan Overview date?

No dice on hull #8. Initially the seller said they had the grease pencil markings, then that changed into "he has the original invoice". That finally degraded into this Bill of Sale from a Marina ...........

Greg Guimond
11-08-2014, 06:28 AM
Can anyone tell what the last digit is on this 16 marking?

gcarter
11-08-2014, 09:31 AM
Matty, you and I have never built a plug nor a mold, I'm just offering my opinion. I don't think what happened in 1968 and 1978 has any real bearing on what happened at Donzi between June 15, 1964 and December 31, 1964 with demanding Don A at the helm. As the historian, if you are trying to figure out how many Ski Sporters were built in 1964 why don't you just call Walt Walters on the phone and ask him if he had an apprentice designer helping out? Or if he remembers Mr. Darwick's purchase of an early 16. You have Walts contact info. Go to the original sources like I have, call him up.

Greg, in todays world, you can create a hull design on a computer screen, forward the file via the internet to a mold maker/generator who can generate a mold directly w/o any intermediate steps. It still takes time.
In the '60's, the plug builder was essentially building a wooden hull upside down on a strongback.....pretty normal stuff in that period of time, but very time consuming.
The only time saving I can visualize would be to farm out the plug to a wooden boat builder. There were plenty of them at the time right there in the Ft. Lauderdale/Miami area. If that individual/shop could prioritize the project, it could be done relatively quickly.
The mold would have had to be built by glass people.
As an example, when I was in school, I worked as an apprentice pattern maker. The shop i worked for contracted for a plug for a 43' production sail boat.
I left before it was finished but it took 6 months or so to build. A plug has to be a much higher quality wooden hull than a typical wooden boat is.

jl1962
11-08-2014, 04:00 PM
Can anyone tell what the last digit is on this 16 marking?

16-339.
The boat is currently listed on eBay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-Donzi-Classic-Ski-Sporter-16-aka-Sweet-16-/131341665235?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1e9492c3d3&item=131341665235&pt=Power_Motorboats

George - do you recall which production 43' sailboat the plug was for?

gcarter
11-09-2014, 05:11 AM
George - do you recall which production 43' sailboat the plug was for?

The time period was about '65-'66. and it was for a local Houston builder of trailable 20'-25' sail boats (sorry, but I can't remember the name) that had delusions of grandeur. I know the plug and mold were completed and maybe one hull was popped out. It may have been rigged and shown, but I seriously doubt if any more were produced, although I do recall some magazine advertisements for it. It seemed to be reminiscent of a Cal-40 w/a slightly longer keel....but it was a very long time ago.

Greg Guimond
11-12-2014, 07:27 AM
Greg, in todays world, you can create a hull design on a computer screen, forward the file via the internet to a mold maker/generator who can generate a mold directly w/o any intermediate steps. It still takes time.
In the '60's, the plug builder was essentially building a wooden hull upside down on a strongback.....pretty normal stuff in that period of time, but very time consuming.
The only time saving I can visualize would be to farm out the plug to a wooden boat builder. There were plenty of them at the time right there in the Ft. Lauderdale/Miami area. If that individual/shop could prioritize the project, it could be done relatively quickly.
The mold would have had to be built by glass people.
As an example, when I was in school, I worked as an apprentice pattern maker. The shop i worked for contracted for a plug for a 43' production sail boat.
I left before it was finished but it took 6 months or so to build. A plug has to be a much higher quality wooden hull than a typical wooden boat is.

George, that is excellent feedback based on your real world experience. In my mind I'm seeing Don A being a slave driver of sorts when he started the company in 1964. If it took 6 months to build a plug for the 43' sailboat how long do you think it would have taken Donzi to build the much smaller 16 Ski Sporter? I have no experience and was not born back then but isn't it a lot easier and quicker to build a small low profile 16 footer wooden plug? It takes me longer to build 5,000 sq ft of house then it does 2,500 sq ft so just wondering.

Of course, Walt Walters would probably remember exactly how long it took as he was there. I could call him but I got busy taking my 16 out for a spin on a November day yesterday.

gcarter
11-12-2014, 12:18 PM
In '68 and '69, I was working at the Cape for Bendix. A guy I worked with was developing a canoe ("Gheenie", I think they're still in production in Titusville, FL).
He built his own plug and mold, but it took him the better part of a year to get it right.
A professional should be able to do it quicker. But those parts have to be perfect!!!!!!!!!

woobs
12-23-2014, 01:43 AM
Okay, This topic came up ...again (but, elsewhere).

So, I just re-read all of the posts from the beginning. I think it helps to have left this alone for a while.... But, here's a thought...

Given that the Formula Jr. was already in existence... And further, that it was reluctantly sold. We know the Jr. gave rise to the Ski Sporter on paper. So, it follows that a short cut in the development of a similar boat for DONZI could have been a reworking of the Formula Jr. plug and / or a mould.

This plug could have still been in existence and if so, access would not have been an issue. To modify details of the Jr. to become the Ski Sporter would have taken much less time than starting from scratch to produce a similar boat. Especially if Walt/Don knew what they wanted to change.

The result would undoubtedly have been closer to a finished product without as much need for performance "adjustments" that also take time ...

If this is what happened it would have also been a cost saving procedure and might have let Don regain some inner satisfaction after selling the Jr.

Plausible?

woobs
12-23-2014, 10:49 AM
BTW: Fred Darwick says his white / green 9 hour champion (Hot Volvo) boat was NOT a pre-production test mule, and it WAS a production boat. It was Donzi Invoice #67, dated December 10, 1964.

Fred also relates that four of the six "Hot Volvo" boats went to:

1) Bob Cox and Ed Joyce of Lauderdale Marina
2) Fred's own white/green boat (9 hour endurance winner)
3) A white/blue boat Fred helped a friend buy (Still around Merritt Island, V6 repowered)
4) Don had a bright green one for Michael.

Apparently the Interceptor/Eaton combination only made about 45mph and the "Hot Volvo" (as written on his bill of sale) was faster :)

woobs
01-03-2015, 09:02 AM
Hey, just found this explanation of the German Tank problem and figured it could be used to estimate our little project here.... Any mathematicians here that want to give a stab?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem

Ghost
01-03-2015, 09:38 AM
That was a fascinating read. Pondering the math, I don't think we're likely to improve upon our existing understanding of the history as compiled through written records and compilations of memories. That said, it's a neat idea just to think about this sort of analysis.

Greg Guimond
01-31-2015, 08:57 PM
BTW: Fred Darwick says his white / green 9 hour champion (Hot Volvo) boat was NOT a pre-production test mule, and it WAS a production boat. It was Donzi Invoice #67, dated December 10, 1964.

Fred also relates that four of the six "Hot Volvo" boats went to:

1) Bob Cox and Ed Joyce of Lauderdale Marina
2) Fred's own white/green boat (9 hour endurance winner)
3) A white/blue boat Fred helped a friend buy (Still around Merritt Island, V6 repowered)
4) Don had a bright green one for Michael.

Apparently the Interceptor/Eaton combination only made about 45mph and the "Hot Volvo" (as written on his bill of sale) was faster :)

This is correct. Alan Brown brought a 16 Ski Sporter to the Jacksonville show on November 15, 1964. Fred told me that he and his wife never went to the Jax show and bought there boat directly from Don A after the show as a production boat. He recalls that it was the 5th or 6th production hull built while we now know that the 16 boat that went to the Jax show was the 3rd. Fred's invoice date of 12/10/64 meant the boat was very fresh as he won the 9 hour on January 2, 1965.

woobs
02-01-2015, 12:01 AM
Mr. Darwick told me that he felt there were 6 Volvo boats made in '64 which were later in the production run (but Alan Brown would know best) the Ford/Eaton boats therefore being first. If boat 6 (Fred's boat) is delivered Dec 10 and at that time there's some boats finished, being finished, some being rigged and some in the mould with two weeks to Christmas...I think there must have been somewhere around 10 - 12 production boats in 1964.

To look at it another way. If Fred's boat, (hull 6) is the 2nd Volvo (because they knew the Volvo's were faster) of 6 made and the Ford/Eaton boats were built first; that makes at least 10 made in 1964.

If someone here knows Mr. Brown (and would ask him), it sure would help put an answer to this question.

Greg Guimond
02-01-2015, 11:50 AM
.
Brown probably will not remember that. His focus in 64/65 was on winning races and chasing skirt, and not in that particular order according to lore.

Keep in mind how many Donzi race boats were in action in late 1964 that would have required Browns focus. Example - In November there was major preparation underway for the big Miami-to-Key West Offshore Race. This race was critical as it was the last race in the 1964 World Powerboat Championship 6 race series (aka "The Sam Griffith Trophy") which Jim Wynne won that year with Dick Bertram taking second. The race was run on November 6, 1964 and had Wynne in a Donzi 28 (2nd), Jim Breuil (3rd) running his own 36' Breuil diesel, Walt Walters in a second Donzi 28 (4th), Allan Brown in a Donzi 19 Hornet (8th), and Jake Trotter placing 16th in yet a 3rd Donzi 28 . There is/was rumor of a 4th 28 but I can't substantiate it. What Allan Brown did indicate to me with 100% certainty was that the hull he brought to the Jax Boat Show the next week was the first Ski Sporter EVER with a Volvo 200. This was confused by many folks for 15 years. Now, we know that Mr. and Mrs. Darwick's 16 was rigged with a Volvo 100, correct?

The timeline for 1964 Ski Sporter production could look like this ...........

July 1, 1964 - Final drawings for the Ski Sporter 16 are printed by legendary designer and living icon Walt Walters who is now 84. The design effort is fast-tracked by the Walters/Aronow 1963 Formula Jr. hull and the 1962 race winning Wynn Mill II driven by Jim Wynne.

September 1964 - Production starts on the 16 with Hull #1 built. Powerplant and drive was from Eaton Manufacturing, Dearborn Marine Engine Division. It was labeled the "Interceptor" and was a 260ci (Ford) V8 probably making 165hp? Boat was Wonder White with a Grumble Green deck stripe. Walt Walters could verify what power the first one got and if he had an apprentice helping with the design. Call him up. This hull seems to be the one piloted by Allan Brown who is running alongside Jim Wynne in the well known flat water photograph. It has no waterline boot stripe in the photo and notice that the decals show America in front of Great Britain.

September 1964 - "Popular Boating"' magazine writes that Hull #2 (or #3) is demonstrated at longtime establishment Santana Marine in Coconut Grove Florida running on Dinner Key. The iconic "grab rail" is offered as a $48 option on 1964s. No pictures survive of it at Santana Marine but this hull could be the one a bearded Jim Wynne is piloting alongside Brownie in the same photo referenced above. The hull is Volvo powered and rigged with an AQ drive after Wynne and Volvo President Harald Wiklund introduced the first drive to America in 1959. Which model is on that Santana demo boat, 100 or 200? It does not have a grab rail, and carries the Swedish decal (recognizing Volvo) first followed by America. These three items are identical to the press boat photo. It is white with a red deck stripe and red waterline boot stripe. Very possible that the "press boat" was also the "demo boat" that PB's Dick Borden wrote about in there June 1965 issue.

October 1964 - Hull #3 (or 2) is built. Power was Volvo/AQ100. It is reviewed in the July 21, 1965 issue of the Swedish performance magazine "Teknikens varld." Many decades later Thomas Ronnberg in Sweden bought and fully restored this 16 and ran it for years. Boat is white with a red deck stripe, no waterline boot stripe and has the 3 gauge dash instrument panel. The 3 gauge panel though seems to be slightly different. Thomas believed it was 1964 hull #2 or #3. Lars on the board would/could contact Ronnberg in Sweden.

November 15, 1964 - Living legend Allan Brown (now 81) as Sales Manager for the new Donzi Marine, brings Hull #4 (or 3) to the Jax boat show rigged with a Volvo/AQ200, the first 200 imported into the US market, but not the first Ski Sporter hull built as has been assumed by master blasters for decades. Boat is white with a blue deck stripe according to AB. No information on if it had a boot stripe or not. Big K's team at Merc (Bill Steele and Joe Swift) tries to bribe Brownie for a closer look at the brand new Aquamatic technology at Lake X. No dice.

December 10, 1964 - Fred Darwick (now 74) takes delivery of hull #6 (or 5) with a 4 cyl Volvo power plant making 110hp and an AQ100 drive. The 110 enginet itself had been proven thoroughly, winning 4 ocean races the prior year in a Formula 233. The cost is $3,500 with trailer while printed ads show a price of $3,995 for 16s to the public. Is the lower cost because of the leftover AQ100 drive instead of a newer 200 or is it because Darwick is both a friend and a supplier to Don Aronow? The boat is white with a green stripe and "Hot Volvo" is handwritten on the original Bill of Sale. The boat has just one option, an Aquameter Speedo and carries the American sticker first followed by Sweden below the scripted Donzi Marine. Wearing #11 on the deck and hulls sides, Fred and Judy go out and win the January 2, 1965 "Orange Bowl Regatta 9 Hour" Endurance Race "Class A" in this Ski Sporter. Archive that invoice at Mystic Seaport and then find Bob Cox and Ed Joyce (who ironically raced a Formula 233 in other earlier races) to see if they bought Ski Sporter hull #5. On April 8. 1965 two Donzi 19 Hornets would compete in the Miami-Nassau Ocean Race. One 19 was a converted I/O and ran dual Johnson 90hp motors and was piloted by the team of Bob Cox and Ed Joyce.

January 15, 1965 - Two (not one) Ski Sporters are shown on the floor at the 55th Annual National Motor Boat Show at the old Coliseum on the UWS of NYC. Also in the booth that day are two 19 foot Donzi's. This is the exact same day that LBJ calls MLK to discuss the Voting Rights Act. The boat show runs from January 15th to January 24th and has 290 boats on the floor. These two 16 hulls were probably built in December 1964 as they would have left Miami a full week earlier to allow for a snow storm cushion. No pictures exist of the booth with those boats but some very rough and unsubstantiated research indicated that the Ski Sporters were red and blue. There is, however, no magazine written account of there colors, power plants, deck stripes or boot stripes. Also unclear who from Donzi manned the booth at this show. There was also some comment that both these Ski Sporters were sold at the NYC show to a dealer in New Orleans.
.

Also ........ note that Frank Civitano remembers his Father (who was friends with Don A) buying a Ski Sporter 16 from Don in 1964. Frank was 14 and recalls it being green with a red stripe and the 4th or 5th 16 made. Ask him to confirm the color combo (how could you forget green?) and did the boat have Volvo or Eaton in the back? This green Ski Sporter could possibly be the same green hull that Fred Darwick mentioned Don had put aside for his young son Michael. The hull color green would have been suspect though as there is no records of 1964 hulls being painted a solid color. I would assume that if Darwick and Civitano's recollections are correct the "bright green" was actually Grumble Green which would have been used on later 16s in 1965.

Also, Also ........... at the time I believe that Mr. Darwick was living in Coconut Grove. Given Santana Marine was also in Coconut Grove, Fred might remember going over to see the Ski Sporter demo that was done there on Dinner Key.

Third Also ............ do not forget that a very early 16 was given to Bill Muncey as a promo present by Don Aronow. This boat was last sold back in 2009 after a complete restoration. Edward Muncey, son of famed racer and Unlimited Hydroplane Champion Bill Muncey (who died in 1981) would know what the original history of this claimed 1964 hull was. Find him and ask.