Calling All Guru's, Jefe Needs some advice

[Team Jefe]

Well folks, for the second year in a row I have managed to toast a motor. This time it was the Port engine. Just got it back from the Marine Shop. From the looks of the report they gave me it was the ring in one piston that let loose and is loosing compression. The motor was running OK a few minutes before the "Check Engine" light and buzzer went off, no idle problem, nothing like that even after the buzzer. The only issue was one of killing the motor when I put it in gear, that had been a problem the last few times I was out (and only intermittently), but it ran OK, and no codes from the ECM, so I chalked it up to not running as often in the winter time. They told me I needed a new powerhead (they want $6000 just for the powerhead, and another $800 labor, plus Tax!). :embarasse

Also they could not get the ECM to hook to the computer and they want to replace that as well (parts $850).

For those of you who did not keep up with my saga from last year, I replaced the original Johnson's with 2000 model Evinrude FICHT 225HP. these were "supposedly" refurbished, but it looks like I was led down the primrose path on the deal. :bonk:

Another replacement is out of the question this year, unless you know of someone selling 225-300Hp Mercury or Yamaha engines 2 for the price of 1. Plus I've been burned already buying used equipment.

Options, opinions, advice, I'm looking for anything. What I already plan to do is dismantle the engine and see if it is just the one cylinder and if anything else is damaged, rods, bearings, etc. I guess if its just the cylinder scoring from the ring, then I can have the block honed and sleeved.

Bright side.....It Ain't June !

Merry Christmas :shades:

[MOP]

6K is a tough number to swallow, is there a shop in your area that would rebuild it. The only time we would go for a new one was if it was not rebuildable, when I was doing it the cost of rebuild came to about 1/2 of a new one. Even if a bore is scored most all can be sleeved.

Phil

[Team Jefe]

Thanks Phil - I'm leaning toward a rebuild as well.

To all - let me know your opinion on the oil injection system for Fuel injected motors. I was originally advised to leave it on, but I'm thinking that since it is the number 2 cylinder that went bad, maybe I need to start pre-mixing the oil & gas to ensure the pistons are lubricated correctly.

[TREYSTJOHN]

First thing to do is see why/what happened to piston/rings. If you were running 87, you may have had slight detonation which caused your issue? Once apart check ring end gap and piston to wall clearance to determine the "state" of your engine (ie it may be past due on rebuild and expired due to looseness). Would have to see to tell you what happened. Rebuild as Phil said is always less expensive. Still need to determine the "why" or your rebuild may suffer the same fate.

As per oil injection, any DI two stroke needs to be oil injected as no fuel goes through the bottom end, premixing will only cause engine to smoke excessively. Most DI's are set up to run what would be about 60:1 if mixed. We add Militec-1 metal conditioner at 2oz per quart of oil for added lubrication on our optimax powered customers.

Hope this helps, Trey

[MOP]

Honest being away from this stuff for so long I have my reservations about me giving answers, was it just a busted ring or did the cylinder blue out looking like lack of lube. I will see if I can find out how the injected ECM setups work changing over. Swapping back to tank mixing worked fine on the carbed motors, may be fine on these just not sure. PM me with what you were able to see and what was told told to you, I will get out to his shop tomorrow afternoon and see what I can find out for you.

Phil

[Fish boy]

sorry to hear bout your motor Jefe. What do you mean by ring let go and is losing compression? is the motor still running just low comp on one of the holes? did you stick the piston? what exactly is wrong with the ring?

Not sure why you need a new powerhead, rebuild is almost always an option, and about half the money.

sending you a pm.

fish

[marcdups]

Team JEFE, Flagship in punta gorda used to rebuild and reman all of OMC's warranty blocks and such, you may want to give them a buzz, that is if you need a powerhead, BTW when OMC went belly up no companies had the ability to rebuild them and these are the only people that actually dealt directly with them, I bet your repair facility is quotimg you a new one from BOMBidoo. I am gonna get it now from the folks across the Northern Territory :wavey: :eek: :wavey:

http://www.flagshipengine.com/about.htm

[gcarter]

I'm curious about what TSJ posted above. Is the F.I. located in the runner between the crankcase and the inlet port?

[marcdups]

George, On those pieces of Fitch,the fuel was injected diectly into the chamber and thus had to have the plugs dialed, sorry JEFE but I would try and get rid of these, bet your JOHNSON were a lot more reliable, does any one wonder why the engine that were supposed to save OMC brought them down, well Jefe sorry to say you have 2 of them, My sympathies, Marc

P:S; I did not post this to make you feel bad, but a S%$# load of folks are where you are at right now and have been since the inseption of these motors, Merc went through about the same thing with the 3.0 optimax but they were not in the gutter already.

[Team Jefe]

WOW guys thanks for the support and advice.

Firstly, I really no nothing about these motors, how they work or What the problem is YET ! I will be posting digital photos of everything I find as I do the tear down.

Marc - Agree with the FIniCHTy nature of these motors, but rerplacement is not a viable option right now...its just way more money than I can handle....maybe after next season???

Trey - I thanks for the confirmation. Oil injection has to stay. and Yes, determining the Why is as big an issue as getting the thing fixed.

Fish - Motor would run at idle though the "Check Engine" light and buzzer were going off. I too think it may be as simple as a damaged ring and scored cylinder.

I'm going to wait until after new year's to start the work. With teh Holidays, crappy weather, and work end of year stuff, its just better to wait. Plus I can get more advice, get the Service Manual I just ordered and read up on these things a little better.

Merry Christmas

[ToonaFish]

Plus I can get more advice, get the Service Manual I just ordered and read up on these things a little better.

(Will not make snide comment on men reading directions, will not make snide comment on men reading directions, will not make snide comment on men reading directions, will not...)

Merry Christmas, Jefe.

[Team Jefe]

Can't you just feel the love and Holiday spirit all around here :lookaroun

[MOP]

Jefe any chance of your insurance covering it, many of the newer policies have a mechanical rider.

Phil

[Fish boy]

jefe,
what is your compression?

[Woodsy]

Jefe...

Not to take anything away from this website, but go over to www.screamandfly.com and post over there. They are the true outboard guru's of the web... I have gotten a wealth of info from them. There is a guy on there, monty racing. He is in FLA and specializes in the rebuilds of Johnrude power heads. Give me a buzz if you want to talk specifics. Don't touch the engine yourself....

Woodsy Von Outboard

PS: If its any consolation, my Ram is in the shop for its Christmas breakdown... should be an interesting bill....


Merry Happy Ho-Ho's! Give my best To AJ...

[Fish boy]

Jefe...

Not to take anything away from this website, but go over to www.screamandfly.com and post over there. They are the true outboard guru's of the web... I have gotten a wealth of info from them. There is a guy on there, monty racing. He is in FLA and specializes in the rebuilds of Johnrude power heads. Give me a buzz if you want to talk specifics. Don't touch the engine yourself....

Woodsy Von Outboard

PS: If its any consolation, my Ram is in the shop for its Christmas breakdown... should be an interesting bill....

Merry Happy Ho-Ho's! Give my best To AJ...

Monty racing aka Gordon Montegue is beyond guru!! It is well settled that mercury makes the fastest outboards and they can be modded more than the white motors. BUT... very few dare mess with an OMC Monty Motor. DOn't know how he does what he does, but there is no one anywhere that can do what he can with a johnrude. Nice guy too.

[Fish boy]

might be an alternative..

Powerhead (http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73058)

[Team Jefe]

Screamandfly it is, thanks for the info.

Jody - From the mechanics report
compression
Starboard 1-110, 2-115, 3-110, 4-110, 5-110, 6-115
Port 1-105, 2-85, 3-110, 4-109, 5-110 6-110

Port computer board overheated and needs to be replaced

[Donzigo]

Jefe,

My neighbor, (you know him Fish), went through almost a carbon copy of your problems. He had the original OMC-Fitch engines, blew one power head, got it replaced. Then, it happened a second time. He was able to get Bombardier to swap both engines, which did cost him some money to do, even though they were in warranty; but the new ones were higher horsepower. Ok, so, now it continues with the new engines. He blew a lower unit on the port engine, then the computer module went on the starboard engine, then just recently, his oil injection system went. He has had to pay almost nothing for all of this; because, he bought the $5,000 after market warranty. But, he has said that next summer, he will sell these engines and maybe even the boat......whatever it takes to get into Mercury or Yamaha technology. He has been assured every step of the way, by Bombardier, that they have solved all the problems, yadda, yadda. But, it just continues on & on. He has had two year's of "engine hell".
Seems like you and my neighbor, have a tough call to make - at what point, and at what price, does one bite the bullet, and get off the train? FYI: I've been there myself, many times.

Good luck.

By the way, those scream & fly boys do know their stuff!

[Team Jefe]

Richard - I think you've been reading my mind. I have had these discussions with fish during my last problem. But right now, there is no way I can swing $25-$30K for new motors....and I am not going to go thru the used engine hell I did this last year.

I really have no choice but to do the rebuild/new powerhead plan. I'm at least going to tear it down and take a look see

[Fish boy]

jefe, with only one hole low (85 is better than I expected), rebuild sholud not be a big job. Unfortunately, most of the cost of the rebuild is the labor that it takes to get the block off, crank out..etc to get to the piston and replace the ring. Hopefully the cylinder wall is ok and the ring (or parts of it did not go else where in your motor)

if you think about it, you are really not looking at 25-30k for new yami's or mercs when you factor in the trade in value or what you could get for your motors selling outright(rebuilt or not).

I also would not necessarily avoid used motors if you can find a good set. From what I hear, the fitch's are problematic; if you bought them new you may have run into the same problem eventually (no personaly knowledge just the rep). Even if you rebuild, you may have them running for a while but could run into the same problem down the road again. Still will be in the same boat (new motors or rebuild), just out the cost of this rebuild and trade in value will be less then.

A set of verados sure would look good there and make your boat haul butt... but a couple of 250 yami's might be the best ticket in the long run.

good luck man, I feel your pain.

fish

PS the suzuki's are a few thousand less than the rest (trying to buy market share I guess). Only talked to one person who has them and he went on and on about how much he liked them better than the mercs (2 strokes) he traded in on them. He said better gas, quieter, same top speed. He started them and I had to put my hand on the motor th see if it was running.

[gero1]

you can try this number 502-622-7013.. talk to darrel.. i might could help ypu with the shipping(free) if you live some where close to where i can get to... my # is 615-633-6907

[onesubdrvr]

Jefe,

You know the troubles I have been through with my I/O lately, and all I can say is I'm sorry. Fortunately for me the I/O engine cost is less than what you are dealing with!!

Once again, I am truely saddened to hear your story, I hope all is better by boating season!

Wayne

[John W]

WOW guys thanks for the support and advice.

Firstly, I really no nothing about these motors, how they work or What the problem is YET ! I will be posting digital photos of everything I find as I do the tear down.

Marc - Agree with the FIniCHTy nature of these motors, but rerplacement is not a viable option right now...its just way more money than I can handle....maybe after next season???

Trey - I thanks for the confirmation. Oil injection has to stay. and Yes, determining the Why is as big an issue as getting the thing fixed.

Fish - Motor would run at idle though the "Check Engine" light and buzzer were going off. I too think it may be as simple as a damaged ring and scored cylinder.

I'm going to wait until after new year's to start the work. With teh Holidays, crappy weather, and work end of year stuff, its just better to wait. Plus I can get more advice, get the Service Manual I just ordered and read up on these things a little better.

Merry Christmas

Jeffe,
Under the ccircumstances I would think one would HAVE to have the RED Bikini Team Console and Comfort the Captain, slowly and thoroughly.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Godd luck with your motors.
JW

[Team Jefe]

John - that is the best advice I have heard yet ! ! !

[ChromeGorilla]

OK OK OK.... I got it! Trade in the stinkin fish boat with the eggbeaters and get you a classic. Problem solved. :yes:

[Team Jefe]

OK OK OK.... I got it! Trade in the stinkin fish boat with the eggbeaters and get you a classic. Problem solved. :yes:

Remind me, the next time I see you, to punch you right in the mouth :smash:

Don't worry, I'll be sure to kiss you wife and make up :biggrin:

[txtaz]

Jefe, I can hook you up with Neil at Jim's outboards in Aransas Pass. He was an outboard racer and still holds 7 national records. I think he knows what he's doing when it comes to outboards. Or you can come visit and we'll yank the power head, replace or rebuild. Last time I did it was in the kitchen and the then "future misses" didn't mind. I have a feeling this time we will need to use the garage.
Seriously, replacing pistons and rings is no biggy on an outboard. Just make sure you have the cylinders checked for scoring and roundness. Use new pistons and rings for those you remove. I would replace all just to be sure. Be carefull with the middle crank bearing, each one is different. They actually crack each in half before installation and no 2 cracks are the same. One side has a hole to hold the bearing to the crank case and keep it from slipping. There is a special tool that mounts to the flywheel for pulling the power head, you might be able to borrow one. Once it is loose, 2 men can handle the lifting. Obviously clean the gasket areas and use new gaskets.
Let me know if I can help.
Wes
Then again, CG has a good idea.... :jestera:

[txtaz]

Jefe, I just talked with my buddy in Clear Lake. He has a 32 Sunsation and claims his mechanic is the best. His mechanic might be able to help you out closer to home. His name is Ed Shy, phone 281-723-5511
Good luck.
Wes

[ChromeGorilla]

:rlol: :rlol: :rlol: :rlol: :rlol: :rlol: :rlol: :rlol:

[Fish boy]

OK OK OK.... I got it! Trade in the stinkin fish boat with the eggbeaters and get you a classic. Problem solved. :yes:

4 u CG.. :D

[Team Jefe]

They put me onto Scream and Fly for some serious Guru's of the outboard rebuilds.

After lots of thought, I decided to let Holeshot Marine do the rebuild.
several reasons;

1. in our conversations, they convinced me they know what they are doing

2. I wanted to get the boat running sooner that 6 months (which is what it take if I did it)

3. I was worried that I would not be able to get all the complicated bits and pieces of teh FICHT back together right.

4. I'd have to have some one do the ECM & buy the parts anyway....and that is the majority of the costs. (they made me a good deal)

So, Dan and Joey are on the job. turns out I lost a locator pin in #2 and did some scarring to the cylinder wall. The block is at the machine shop now get all cylinders bored 20-over.....it should take care of the bad one and clean the others up so that they are all the same. They are going to do both lower units, decarbon the Starboard motor and install new plugs in both.

Jefe's Revenge should be back up and going in a week or so.