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View Full Version : I want hydralic steering on my X18. What do I buy?



Lenny
12-01-2004, 11:58 AM
What is required to convert a 280 Volvo, (no power steering pump) to a full internal or external hydralic system?

I want to keep the original steering wheel and bezels if possible.

Kirk
12-01-2004, 12:12 PM
Lenny,

On my 74' 16 (brian73..the old owner) installed an internal seastar system, it works great. New helm was installed and I still use my old bezel and steering wheel.

Brian did a great job installing the unit so you may want to catch up with him. He still posts on the boad every once in awhile.

I have seen the setup listed in boat us if that helps. If you need furhter details...i.e. pics or info let me know.

KJ

Lenny
12-01-2004, 02:19 PM
Thanx Kirk. Do you have any pics of the set-up in the engine compartment?

Also, as another consideration, does anyone make a wing plate for a VOLVO 280?

I assume I need the HC5332 steering kit and the "rear mount" helm so that it sits behind the dash and I can continue to use my existing bezel.

Any more ideas? I'd prefer an internal arrangement.

Danny
12-01-2004, 04:35 PM
I had to make a wing plate that bolts on the drive cap.
I used a seastar front mount helm. Found an exrternal seastar ram that is no longer available and I just getting ready to glass in a reinforcing block inside the transom to mount the bracket for the external ram. I bought ram, hoses and helm on ebay ,some new some used. Short hoses and thru hull fitting I got from a local hydraulics guy.
I found this site helpful http://www.seastarsteering.com/index.htm
There are some options here as well.
http://imcomarine.com/nevadaindex.html
Danny

mphatc
12-01-2004, 07:26 PM
Lenny,

I looked into this prior to converting to a Bravo on my Corsican . . .

and I was told by several here and off this board not to do it as the drive cap on the old Volvos are not strong enough to transfer all the energy required for a total PS set up, and that there is no safe way to mount a steering set up on the drives.

How fast is this running ?? 55- 60?

Do you really need it?

Mario

Lenny
12-01-2004, 09:07 PM
YES, I need it. It is undriveable at WOT or Mid. It will do a 180 left in about a billionth of a second if I let go of my death grip. I had an offer of an Alpha today, GenII, 1:50 rebuilt with the bill, done by Merc, RH nd never wetted, complete with everything,...for some cabinets. It is not what I want to do as I want to keep it stock, but you never know. Come April/May I can't enter a summer of fun running it like this.

Ed Donnelly
12-01-2004, 09:14 PM
Lenny; I used the Seastar on my 16' with a 270 and E lower.
If you are making good torque with your engine, go power steering. When I was running the Gale Banks twin turbos, I cold turn right with 1 finger. Left was both hands with my feet braced....Ed

martiniboat/ Brian Kamrath
12-02-2004, 08:41 AM
:eek: Ed, twin turbo engine in a 16'? Say it ain't so! :eek: :wink:

ToonaFish
12-02-2004, 08:49 AM
Hmmh, so that's what Ed did with it when he took them out of the Criterion! :eek!:

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1109&goto=nextnewest

(I think he meant the Crit...)

ToonaFish
12-02-2004, 09:22 AM
Does your wife know?

:D

ToonaFish
12-02-2004, 10:05 AM
Hmmh, you could buy that chopped up 22' and make a traveling kennel out of it...

(I lived next to a county where if you sold one single puppy or offered a dog at stud, you were considered a commercial kennel and had to get appropriate zoning and licenses. Big pain in the arf.)

thriller
12-02-2004, 10:10 AM
That's great Ed, Now would you please post some pics of the the twin Gale Banks Turbo's..

Come on already..This baby must have cooked along pretty nice..

I do recall some pics last year showing one of your creations..Nice Work..

Has the Doc given you clearance to go Mach III again ie: superchargers..

mphatc
12-02-2004, 09:59 PM
Lenny,

Back to your power steering question . .

what direction is your prop turning?

Which side is your steering on? sorry, maybe this should be assumed to be on the left . . but I'm not sure.

Have you tried a reversed direction prop?

Mario

Lenny
12-02-2004, 10:14 PM
Mario, steering is on left. Props have been turned left and right, currently right (Ultra24) Beautiful prop, terrible steering.
Seriously, if there was a log in front of me I could NOT turn the boat.

I have had the "same" amount of pull on both sides in regards to prop rotation. It's a "boat thing". I want power steering (hydraulic whatever) but something has to change before spring. I can handle a few more cruises this winter like this, but I will not enter a season full of running in this configuration. I don't like the idea of an Alpha to be honest cuz I will probably break it. I would also like the opportunity to install a shortie one day so a Bravo (if I change anything) is the answer. As you have found out. I am just a little hung up on originality. Maybe if I get over that I will be OK. ;)

:)

mphatc
12-02-2004, 10:24 PM
Lenny,

I understand the originality . . struggled with it myself and that's why I still fight to keep all the H&M stuff installed inspite of the Bravo!

Is your boat a Ford or a Chevy?

When my boat was set up with the Volvo 250
I tried several props and found that I had helm issues with a steeper pitched prop . . .

What do you turn for revs?

I have some aluminum Volvo LH I could lend you for experiments

Mario

Lenny
12-02-2004, 10:35 PM
I have 4 props Mario, all have the same manners in regards to rotation. RH is as bad as LH but opposite problem. I am turning the Ultra 24P at 5300-ish. I am seeing about 58-60 Gps. I haven't figured out the peak and hold (call back) feature yet on the GPS. :banghead: Anyways, Chev 350 "something". I CAN spin the prop easy, caviatate it when I hammer it. :D (yes, I watch the revs) I am seeing about 17% slip I think. Volvo 280.

Perfect for the boat, if I could turn the damn thing :D

Probably wouldn't hurt to find a cupped 24 (to 25-ish) to try but still this needs to be resolved.

Mario, here is how the "Steering is set-up". It is a "heim joint" style ball joint on a bracket off the end of the Nicson exhaust. There is a little play but it is tight (tightened) and very minimal. Very Mickey Mouse tho. :rolleyes:

Also, my boat does NOT have the 3/4" hex bolt on the transom to support the steering like most all others. Nor, has it been filled. ???

Mr X
12-02-2004, 10:49 PM
I have 4 props Mario, all have the same manners in regards to rotation. RH is as bad as LH but opposite problem. I am turning the Ultra 24P at 5300-ish. I am seeing about 58-60 Gps. I haven't figured out the peak and hold (call back) feature yet on the GPS. :banghead: Anyways, Chev 350 "something". I CAN spin the prop easy, caviatate it when I hammer it. :D (yes, I watch the revs) I am seeing about 17% slip I think. Volvo 280.

Perfect for the boat, if I could turn the damn thing :D

Probably wouldn't hurt to find a cupped 24 (to 25-ish) to try but still this needs to be resolved.

Good info Lenny!
Could you please post a nice close up picture of tha Ultra prop?
I have never seen one.......

Lenny
12-02-2004, 11:50 PM
Good info Lenny!
Could you please post a nice close up picture of tha Ultra prop?
I have never seen one.......

Here goes, (love this camera):D

Mr X
12-03-2004, 06:59 AM
Thanks Lenny!
It looks alot like a Mercury prop........

mphatc
12-03-2004, 06:52 PM
Lenny,

My steering on my 1969 Corsican was set up exactly the same way!

My mechanical and engineering background doesn't allow me apply a bandage and cover up a problem . . consequently I prefer to find the source of the problem before initiating corrective action . . what a mouthful :shades:

So I have a bunch of questions . . .I'm sure you've looked at some of this already . . .

With these props and the rpms you are running , have you altered the drive angle with the pin? I found with a steeper pitched prop (23) on my Volvo that the stern lift was too much for the second hole . . and third hole was to high . . I switched back to a 21 and ran on the second hole. With the 23 my boat was very hard to drive and I had helm, helm that I think may have been caused by to much of the keel in the water and the boat not running level as I have no trim tabs.


I'd like for you to bear or is that beer :beer: with me and do some homework :puke: . . to determine what is causing this huge amount of helm.

Is everything on the Volvo drive tight? All pivots, look for those points that will be effected by torque. Is the main pivot bearing been greased recently?

Disconnect the steering cable, does the drive pivot freely, is there resistance in the cable? What about the Teleflex helm at the front?

If you grabbed the bottom fin of the drive and tried to move the fin left or right _without_ turning the drive is there ANY movement?

If all this passes muster . . lets look at the whole hull to drive relationship . .

Take some measurements from the port and starboard chine to the bottom center of the Volvo transom plate. And also to the top center of the plate. We're trying to determine if your drive is on center or perpendicular to the waterline.

With your steering wheel in the straight ahead position as if you were running WFO . . is the drive at any bit of an angle?

Has the lower fin been twisted and just nicely refininshed?

Me thinks that something is askew . .and I'd rather see you finds what it is, than add PS to an old Volvo drive that doesn't have the strength in its case or top cap construction to carry the load, especially where your loading is going to be constant.

Mario

Lenny
12-03-2004, 07:01 PM
Printed your observations and suggestions Mario. :yes: Thanks. I was talking to CDMA today about this set up and he also had a few concerns. One is, that the "stand" for the steering cable support/anchor is not the same distance forward from the transom as the pivot hole on the tiller arm. This creates unequal forces to me through torque. Second, the steering cable is not parrallel (on the same horizontal plane as the tiller arm. It is higher by about 2" so that might also affect the performance at the helm.

Lots of stuff to think about, I will start tonight. Thanx...eh :D

mphatc
12-05-2004, 09:24 PM
Ok Lenny,
It's Sunday night . . curious minds want know what you found! :smash:

Well, atleast 1 curious mind ;-)

Mario

Mr X
12-05-2004, 09:39 PM
We just got back from the first run of the X-18,
it has the nibral racing prop (factory option)
I can let go of the wheel at any speed.....even WOT and its rock solid!
NO steering torque in either direction......WEIRD!

Lenny
12-06-2004, 12:20 AM
Ted, do you have the 3/4" "bolt head" sticking out on your transom? If you do, I believe this is a WAYYYY better way to anchor down the pivot point for the steering on the Volvo. I have a few "angle of the dangle" issues here I believe, and as well, when the drive is straight ahead, on trailer, in shop, and I go to the port or starboard of the boat, I can grab the fin, at bottom of skeg, pull to port or starboard and get a fair something in movement that I don't like. Hard to describe the amount.

I will wait a bit, see if I get this 496 HO for a kitchen and then maybe things will "change" a bit. :D Bravo and 1 " Shortie, 425 HP...

Then I will rendesvous with you in some canal :D and we'll work the bugs out :D

Mr X
12-06-2004, 07:37 AM
No 3/4 bolt head sticking out of the transom.
If you do the 496 HO deal make sure it runs first, there was a major recall on the 496's due to incorrect pushrod's.
The first time the engine spins on the starter, they would all bend or break.

Lenny
12-07-2004, 11:09 AM
Ted, are you interested in taking a pic of your steering arm/cable and method of support by the port manifold?

mphatc
12-07-2004, 07:18 PM
Lenny,

I looked at all my pictures of my boat prior to disassembly but I found none relating to the original Volvo set up . . I recall precisely how it was built though as I still have the pieces.

The pivot bolt was mounted on a steel angle iron bracket mounted to the stringer, and the pivot was ~ 4 inches above the top of the stringer. It did not run at a right angle while pointing straight ahead.

I did find this picture of a PS set up on a BMW / BMW drive set up in an 18'. . FWIW , its a real simple set up.

Mario

gcarter
12-07-2004, 07:25 PM
Donzi Racer (Tom Bawsel) has an early 18 w/a SBF and a Bravo with what is i'm sure the original steering. It has a bracket off the port stringer and port steering. It's not at right angles either.

mphatc
12-07-2004, 07:41 PM
GCarter,

SBF and a Bravo??? are you sure . . how did he do it??

Mario

gcarter
12-07-2004, 08:27 PM
That's what I said, but that's what it is, I've seen it.
The inner transom plate doesn't have the steering "ears" on the starboard side. Even if it did, the exhaust hoses drop down considerably where the steering would be.
I'm not sure if there is an adapter for the Ford block to a standard flywheel housing or what. But that's just standard "hot rod" stuff adapting engines and flywheels to other hardware.
Tom bought the boat already assembled. The engine is supposed to have about $40,000.00 invested in it. He doesn't have a lot of seat time in it. Also he told me he was looking forward to trying a few different props as it "torques" considerably.
Why don't you PM tom. He travels a lot but he responds pretty quickly.

mattyboy
12-07-2004, 08:42 PM
Lenny,
I have a similar setup on my 16 the bracket is mounted to the block under the port riser ( just under the elbow of the riser) and is at an angle but the tiller arm has been Machined ( twisted) to match the angle
and I found my steering problems in the helmut, were the bushing bolt goes through was rounded out causing slop when under way the drive would load to the left causing me to have a popeye right arm from holding it to the right ,
I put a rubber o ring around the bolt and the boat is like I have power steering tracks true and is effort less, just like ted said ( with a 22 ultra)
I'll try and find pics
my steering cable has a ( remember I not a wrench guy) with a quick connect snap ring?? there is a ball on the tiller arm and pull the sleeve back and place it on the ball and release, the other volvos i have seen have a bolt that goes thru the cable end and the tiller arm
am i making sense??

MOP
12-07-2004, 09:11 PM
Lenny Matt brought up a good point, try disconnecting the cable from the tiller. You should be able to move the drive from side to side with very little effort, the main pivots and the tiller bushings may have a little bind. At speed it will bind very badly making steering the a beast, you say the effort stays about the same in either direction with L&R props thats leads me to think you should check the freeness of the drive. Normally prop torque is felt mostly in one direction not both.

Phil

Lenny
12-07-2004, 11:43 PM
Phil, you missed something. Equal Port or Starboard steering effort , BUT, in regards to prop rotation. I can take this thing and make it IMPOSSIBLE to turn one way or the other (really, it is impossible) but can change this problem from port or starboard with a prop rotation change.

It is definately a leg/steering thing and not a hull thing.

Why don't I just pay someone to fix it :bonk:

MOP
12-08-2004, 08:29 AM
Phil, you missed something. Equal Port or Starboard steering effort , BUT, in regards to prop rotation. I can take this thing and make it IMPOSSIBLE to turn one way or the other (really, it is impossible) but can change this problem from port or starboard with a prop rotation change.

It is definately a leg/steering thing and not a hull thing.

Why don't I just pay someone to fix it :bonk:

Not questioning or even thinking its a hull problem, just that any binding in any of the pivots will magnify as load is applied. I would disconnect the cable to check drive for freeness. The cable and helm friction builds under load combine that with a drive with some binding and you have a nightmare!

Phil

boldts
12-08-2004, 10:42 AM
Just reading because I always like to learn new things and had a Donzi with a 250 Volvo.

I didn't see anywhere in here where the steering tab is being adjusted along with the prop rotation change. I know on my 250, if that thing was off a little, there was a heck of a lot of steering torque! It also required adjustment although be it very small when I changed the trim hole I used. I almost always ran my 18 in the 3rd hole from the transom. More boat out of the water, less friction and more speed. My boat was a lefty, but I ran a righty stainless prop with no issues.

Maybe the steering tab is not the issue here, but since I didn't see it mentioned, thought I'd ask if it was also being moved and adjusted along with the props?

My 250 had a bolt that went down through the drive right above the prop. Loosen this bolt, that exhaust outlet tab (steering tab is what I'm calling it) can be turned in either direction. If steering torque is to the right, move the tab left I believe and vice versa. Might take a couple tries, but that manual steering should be 1 finger when you have it right. Also, set the tab so that your steering is 1 finger at WOT. There may still be a little torque at lower speeds, but I didn't find I needed to be Herculies to drive mine and those of you who know me, I'm not a big guy either.

I've also been told that there is a flat (non-exhaust) tab available. Said to help the speed just a bit.

Lenny
12-08-2004, 11:59 AM
I have done the tab thing Scott. It would have to be the size of the rudder on one of your Aircraft Carriers to make a difference. :D

I am agreeing with the friction/gimbal/bushing thing at this point. I am going to get it "re-bushed" and tightened up and go from there. I really don't want to change out the leg and re-glass this original transom just yet.

Great advice from all :yes:

MOP
12-08-2004, 04:36 PM
Lenny the Egg shaped exhaust tab has little to no effect piece of crap, quite some time back one of the members posted one he made up to resemble the Merc tab which was suppose to do the job. I will give a shot at finding his post.

Phil

MOP
12-08-2004, 04:42 PM
Found the post it is worth going through, I was wrong about what Penbroke said but a few posts down says a bit more. I do know that putting the flat Merc plate on a non power steering boat turns it into a beast.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2356&highlight=volvo+torque

GEOO
12-14-2004, 03:30 PM
Lenny,
You're 8 years late. I sold my Steering, already.

Formula Jr
12-17-2004, 03:46 AM
I always thought Volvos had the strangest way of mounting the end of the steering cable sheath. Its like a halfbaked afterthought.

I keep looking at how yours is mounted and wonder if I'd even get in the boat! I mean its JUST the steering cable!

This system is so bad, I think you just have to develop your own system of mounting the end of the sheath. Something that mounts to the transom and then swivels to follow the arc of the steering arm.

What you keep describing is binding in the cable. If its original there might not be any grease left in it so any little bend will freeze the system up.