Help! What do I do o wise ones?

[ChromeGorilla]

OK need some advice/help here.... I want to get rid of my dual ram Bennetts because I really do not like how they perform. I have a few options.

First, I could get some Martini Victory Tabs to replace the Bennetts. I am confident I could accomplish this by myself. This is the easier of the choices.

Second, I can get brand new "E"-planes like the ones seen on the Livorsi site ( Eddie Marine (http://www.eddiemarine.com/cart/details.asp?SubCategoryID=737&CategoryID=92) makes them) for $450. Which is a killer deal. This price is close to the Victories. Lowest I've seen them is $1400. Comes with s/s lines, 2 pumps indicator actuators...etc. Not to mention the cool factor is mucho high! :eek:

I would love to do the second of the two. But I have some concerns. 1st, I have now idea what a local marine shop would charge for labor. Maybe I don't wanna know..lol And I dont have any experiance filling in glass or drilling glass or what will even be required to put these on. I would love to learn how but have never had the chance.

So I query the elders :jestera: for boating wisdom. Maybe I could take a road trip somewhere and make it a learning experiance... :lookaroun

So fire away. Any advise, help or guidance will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks, Scott

[Cuda]

Check out the tabs Fred has at Trick Marine. I don't remember what they cost.

[ChromeGorilla]

He has some sweet lookin tabs. I saw them earlier. $1400-$1600......more than I would like (read allowed by wife) to spend at this holiday juncture....

[ChromeGorilla]

Scott I accidently posted the 24" tabs. i was actually gonna get the shorter ones they make.

[RickR]

Chrome
If you have the 12X9s I agree they are too small for a 22 Classic.
I have been satisfied with 12X12 dual ram on the 22. They are set up so they will retract above the water, while on plane.

[Donzigo]

Madpoodle has spoken..............need I say more. He's usually got the right approach. Re-read his post. I agree with him. We've got a 22 with Bennetts. In fact, my 8,500 lb Z-33 has Bennetts. I cut up out there in some brutal waters, at times. ..............Not much on the "cool factor" chart; but, they've worked just fine for 3 years and I owned a Z-25 for 13 years before that. No problems......none.

[ChromeGorilla]

I think I'll try messin with the Bennetts this week and see how I like it fri. BUT if I end up changing them out which ones should I go with? And any guesses on labor to install the Eddie Marine ones, or how involved it is?

Also has anyone on the board tried the Victory tabs from martini?

[BUIZILLA]

CG, why do you think you NEED a tab change?? The Almighty Dog has spoken...

JH

[Ed Donnelly]

JohnW won a set of Victory tabs and he is putting them on his 22' Why not E-mail Victory and he can tell you who he has sold them to with 22' s I know there are a few members here that have bought them. Try doing a search....Ed
The inferior blind one has spoken

[gcarter]

I have a set of Victories on my Minx.
The aged one has spoken.

[ChromeGorilla]

Buizilla, they just dont feel right. Whenever i need tabs down for whatever reason, load balance l/r, both down a little to keep from porpoising it feelslike I have to hold the buttons down forever for the boat to react. There is only pump for both tabs (4 rams). For whaever reason I just "feel" like I need a little better response from the tabs then I get. Do I make sense? I don't know.... just tryin to get her to "feel" the way I want to..maybe it's a preference thing......thats why I'm askin.
Would Victories give me response quicker even with the same pump because of the larger surface are? Would the other tabs give me a quicker response because each tabs has it's own pump and more surface area?.....just tryin to figure out what I wanna do. you guys are defiantely helpin.

[RedDog]

I can tell you about the Victories on a 22 Classic next Spring ;)

Roadtrip didn't like them - I'm going to try them and hope I do like them. Actually I think he like the ride with them but lost some speed with them in place.

You're thinking like I have - the dual ram Bennets seem slow to react. There is a larger Bennet tab, HD-16, but I couldn't find a vendor and I think they would cost similar to the Victories - see the attached image.

The folks at Bennett told me: "Bennett Marine Part Numbers; TPAHD16P & TPAHD16S. They retail for $219 each..."

[ChromeGorilla]

Scott, yes. Thats the first thing I checked was fluid level. Pump appears to be working correctly...It definately sounds like if the bennetts are working properly I would be happy with them as others are. Hmmmm. This requires further investigation.

[ChromeGorilla]

RedDog, why next spring?!!!?!? get out there and get some on water testin done. it was beautifull today.... :biggrin: . I expect a full report by this weekend....lol mid 70's all week...:)

[Dr. Dan]

:bonk: Chrome....I would suggest you first try to get with Poodel and visit his modification before you touch your Tabs....if ya got $$$$ burning a hole in your pocket and wanna do some coolness adds...there are alot of other things...that will actually help or at least spread the wealth further.

I would like to respectfully suggest that your boat is very new to you...and although you have run it a few months, you may be surprised with more seat time...I would try what Poodle has suggested first....unless ya just want the Bling Bling...then go for it, any qualified Merc Shop can install them....

Todd lost top end with his(Victories)...and for some reason that is very important to him, Hmmmmm? Try running with no Tabs and just adjusting your trim...Poodle has me on a new learning curve.....

Good Luck

Doc

[ChromeGorilla]

Doc, thats what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna try the mod first and go from there. thanks for the advice Doc. And everyone for that matter

[CDMA]

Chrome,

While I think the best bet in regards to your problem is to start with the basic trim tab modification I know where you are coming from with your unhappiness with the Bennett's. While they do the job I find the reaction time of them to be well below acceptable. If I want tabs I want them now and I have never found the reaction time of the Bennett's on my 18 or any other classic to be acceptable. The instantaneous reaction time of a K plane style system with two hydraulic pumps is much superior.

That being said I think tabs are some of the most over used items on classics. Other then side to side weight balance I think they rarely should be used. Of course this may vary by drive, propeller, x dimension...etc.

Chris

[ChromeGorilla]

CDMA, well put. the retraction is not whats bothering me but the reaction time.

[gcarter]

Goodness CG, this shouldn't be so difficult. If reaction time is your problem, add an additional pump. That's probably the least expensive thing you could do besides the Poodle's ram modification. :yes:

[ITTLFLI]

Just a side note...If any of you guys are looking to unload your Bennett's I would be interested in purchasing them. I currently have the Instatrim tabs that are beginning to look U shaped :rolleyes: I never use the tabs but the Instatrim will probably break off the boat if I go one more season :lookaroun

Thanks,

Byron
itllfli@aol.com

[Surfer]

I have been feeling the same way about the mine, 12 x 12's on the 18, at first I way over used them, another words no responce at first, then a surprise when they kicked in. since I rebuilt my drive trim, I have found that I don't touch the tabs, I get instant responce, and have found a more positive and predictable reaction from the drive.

[Tabman II]

ChromeGorilla,

I’m Thomas and I work for Bennett Marine in the Client Service department.

I have been following this thread on your issue, which basically comes down to reaction time of the trim tab system. There are two ways for you to correct your problem and they have both been touched on by all here. One is to increase the overall size of your trim tabs from 12 x 9’s to 12 x 12’s. This would entail ordering two (2) new Trim Plane Only 12 x 12 w/Dual Actuators (TPO1212DA, $83 each) to replace your current 12 x 9’s. You would still be able to use your current mounting plates and actuator mounting points, so NO PATCHING and you should be able to perform this upgrade yourself in about an hour (save the labor costs for other goodies)! The larger trim tabs would provide quicker response from your trim tab input, since you are moving more surface area with the same correction. You could also step up to black powder coated ST12 Sport Tabs (TPAST12, $164 each) or if you really intend to drive her hard a set of our black powder coated HD13 Heavy Duty Tabs (TPAHD13, $213 each) for a bit more flash on your transom, but as you can see they will set you back on your overall cost. The second choice would be to install another V-351 Hydraulic Power Unit (V351HPU1, $314 each) & wiring harness (WH1000, $31 each), so you will have one hydraulic power unit per tab which is more like the K-Plane set-up. This route will most likely require a bit more time to install, since you will have pull the new wiring harness and redo your plumbing for the actuators. You might need some new hydraulic line and fittings to complete the installation, which I am sure we could “arrange” something directly to help you out! ;) Of course, you will need to shop these part numbers around your local marine dealers, catalog &/or Internet retailers to get your best prices, since the ones I have provided are straight “Manufacturer Suggested Retail Prices”!

If you have anymore questions, please feel free to contact me directly!

Sincerely,
MJ Thomas
Bennett Marine, Inc.
Client Services
trimtabs@earthlink.net
www.bennetttrimtabs.com
(954) 427-1400
(954) 480-2897

[RickR]

Chrome
If your tabs are slow to react when going DOWN,, what is your starting point?

If the tabs are fully retracted (depending on how they are mounted) it may take a few moments before they reach the water.

How is the reaction time when the tabs are already down?

[ChromeGorilla]

Thomas, thank you for the response. I really appreciate it. this mornin I took a step back and thought, ok, what is the sensible way to get what I want. The result I want can obviously be had cheaper than the other 2 options. I'm gonna research the parts you listed. I probably would be happly with slightly larger tabs and/or a second pump. Which, after all is said and done would be less exspensive. Again Thanks.

[ChromeGorilla]

If Cuda make it to the Toys-for-Tots run on Dec 11 I'll take him out before the run and have him run my boat a little and see what his opinion is on how it feels.

[Tabman II]

ChromeGorilla,

You are very welcome and if you have anymore questions, please don't hesitate to contact us!

Sincerely,
MJ Thomas
Bennett Marine, Inc.
Client Services
trimtabs@earthlink.net
www.bennetttrimtabs.com
(954) 427-1400
(954) 480-2897

[RickSE]

My new 22 has K-Planes while my old 18 had Bennett's. As many here describe the Bennett's on my 18 always seemed slow to respond and in my mind were way too slow for a high performance boat. May have been the push-button switches I had though which I never really liked. Thomas seems to have some good suggestions though to fix the slow response.

Also, anyone who thinks they can drive my 22 without using the tabs is welcome to come try, it just can't be done. The porpoise is way too overwhelming, especially below 60-MPH, and can not be driven through like most people suggest. Yes you can call me a wimp now. :rolleyes: I have somewhat of a different animal but from what I've read here I also think the Mirage+ is causing most of the porpoise. I’m hoping to try a Hydro soon but I just hate the idea of having to take off a $1200 Lab finished prop that the factory feels is correct for the boat.

[TREYSTJOHN]

EASY FIX...Since you have two rams per tab and one low volume pump, disconect the hydraulic line from the outside ram on each tab. Thus, only the inside ram will be pressurized and "working". This will sincrease the ram speed by a factor of 2. Bennet will probably tell you not to do this, but we did this for a customer with a 26' Martini/Corsa powered by one of our 575hp sc454 packages (boat runs 76.4mph). He has run the boat hard for 6 years with out any issues (ie. no ram beakage, plate bending, etc). Cost...Free...very wife friendly.

[Richard Rees]

I have had same problems with my 22 classic with the bennett 12x9 tabs, just ordered victory tabs 12x15 hope these will help.

[ChromeGorilla]

RickS..I thought I was all screwed up. Everyone was commenting how they leve them level or barely use them and use the drive trim to correct porpoise.... I always have to have at least a little tab down, unless i pull them as far up as i feel safe when I want to haul major a$$. Maybe it's the power/drive/prop combo that make it handle a little different than other options....I dunno. Plan for now is probably to get another pump and maybe slightly larger Bennetts. Will keep updated. I wount be doin any of this till after i do the toys for tots thing in a couple weeks. Like I said earlier, if Cuda is up for takin her out for a spin we'll get his opinion on my setup.

[ChromeGorilla]

I would like to respectfully suggest that your boat is very new to you...and although you have run it a few months, you may be surprised with more seat time


Hey Dan, I'm taking care of that seat time thing every weekend. :biggrin: Was 80 today...... Am I allowed to go for a yule tide cruise on xmas day???? :tongue: :) :biggrin:

Hehehe...Scott

[Dr. Dan]

:beer: Great discussion here...Glade you're able to get Seat time...Scott. For the Record...I have had no performance complaints with my Tabs...they are from 1993, Single rams and I have no issue with their Speed of Actuation!(if thats a word)...I think something else to be cautious of is that too fast of an attitude change while running is also a bit startling when you are going say over 55 or so....so ya have to be careful regardless.

I have never had a porposiing issue with the King Cobra...I also am able to achieve very respectable speeds considering the lack of Positive Trim on both the Drive and Tabs.... :spongebob

I know alot of that is related to the Drives Characteristics, the Power Increase with the HP500 EFI and alot of respect by yours truly...for what my boat can do, and what I feel comfortable with. :smash:

I know in Lake George this year...when it grabbed 78 mph for a Top end run...I had been dragging Tabs and was not Agressively Trimmed at all with the Drive, so that leads me to conclude that the Pill can deliver much more for me when I am ready? :p

But I wanna be cautious, I wanna be Safe....I don't run for extended periods with passengers above 70 mph. I get to our destination plenty quickly cruising easily at 65...with zero issues. To know that ya have another 10 to 15+ Mph in your pocket if ya need it ... is an awesome feeling to be sure.

But I can tell ya, when ya hit something going that fast in the water, it is not kind to your hull. I will be having the underside completely tuned up and regelled prior to 2005 Season...it all costs money, how fast ya wanna go?

Good Luck & Safe Boating

Doc :spongebob

[ChromeGorilla]

Dan all good points. And you hit it on the head. no matter what hardware your running it all comes down to how you feel as an operator. Only you know when you feel safe and when ya dont. when you're comfortable or not. Sometimes you really cant explain it, its just the feel of you and your boat.

[Dr. Dan]

:banghead: Admit it....it's like Sex, ya know when ya see it, Ya know when ya feel it...and its never enough....Donzi Addicted For Life!

:spit:

[ChromeGorilla]

Sex on a Donzi?!?!?!? :eek: Know any good vinyl cleaners...lmao

[MOP]

I agree this has been a very good thread! I do not have tabs on my 22 and only have missed them a little, I just ask for a slight butt move to one side or the other. The boat has never even tried to porpoise and is quick to plane, I do have a 12X12 Bennett setup that will go on over the winter but mounted high and clean. The only time I will use them is to level it out or to drive the bow down in bad chop. I like the others that have commented find the boat super responsive to drive trim, especially for WOT. With no trim 56-7mph with a hand full of trim 61+ and very stable.

[Bryan Tuvell 33ZX]

I have had the Bennett dual rams on two boats (22 and 26ZX), very minimal lag time. I will add Bennett's customer service is unsurpassed, call them for advice/recommendations, send them the pump, they will replace it free.

I have individual pumps per, on my K Planes, reaction time is about the the same, you are moving a flat surface that is being compressed at speed..
My 2 cents.
Bryan

[RickSE]

One topic we've not discussed is tab indicators. One of the best things I ever did was add mechanical indicators to my tabs. The boat is so much easier to drive now. I actually found out after installing the indicators that one tab goes down a lot slower than the other, so all the times before when I thought I was putting them down level and even they were not. This really seemed to screw me up before adding indicators since I would loose track of where I thought the tabs were in relation to each and the bottom of the boat.

My normal process is to put the tabs down even to mark 6 or 7 on a 10-mark gauge. Once I'm running at speed I usually trim the drive accordingly and then begin pulling the tabs up. Seems like I usually end up with the tabs around mark 4 or 5 when cruising in the 40 to 60 MPH range. Mark 4 puts the tabs parallel with the bottom of the boat. These K-Planes are mounted about 3/8"-1/2" above the bottom surface of the boat. Also, as the tabs pull up past mark 6 there is a sudden boost in speed and the boat lurches forward (man I love haviing 500HP) as the majority of the drag from the tabs goes away. My boat seems to like parallel tabs or even a little positive tab at cruise to keep the bounce out even with the drive all the way down. I have to state though that I'm usually cruising with my wife and two young children in the 45 to 55 MPH range. Obviously as speed increases less and less tab is required. For me it just seems to be the slower speeds where I really need the tabs to run comfortably with no bounce.

Again I really think indicators are one of the best mods a person can make to their tab system.

[Tabman II]

RickS has a very good point!

Speed of movement isn't as important as precise trim tab placement for the given running conditions! Trim tab position indicators are very important on performance vessels where a few degrees down can cause undue drag and reduce your overall speed capabilities, which was easily seen & felt by RickS as he pulled them up to Mark 4 on the gauges. Now, this doesn't mean you can't trim your vessel with a set of indicators, but if you intend to push the vessel’s abilities more visional & ACCURATE information is needed to really ring it out safely!

Sincerely,
MJ Thomas
Bennett Marine, Inc.
Client Services
trimtabs@earthlink.net
www.bennetttrimtabs.com

[Speed-Racer]

Chrome if you had an 18 or 16 w/out any tabs, LENCO would be by far the way to go, no pumps, no messy fluids, and reaction time is very fast! .....But in your case, hydraulic might be better, so good luck with whatever hydraulic system works out!

[martiniboat/ Brian Kamrath]

That is a tough decision! $450 for the E tabs :eek:

As you already know, the Victorys are a direct retrofit. In one hour or less you can unbolt the old units, bolt the Victorys on and be done with it. This is easily accomplished using basic handtools and a high quality urethane sealant. (3M 4200 or '5200' if it is to be permanent) All dual ram Victorys for the Bennett application measure 12" x 19".

The entry level dual ram Victory upgrade for the Bennett system sells for only $369 powder coated in black. That would even leave you a little left over to 'put in the tank'.

The next step would be the Victory Offshore Series which has an additional ''backbone' or support gusset right down the center. This is the model to go with if you enjoy 'airing out' the hull :D Absolutely unbreakable. Now you're at $449 and one hour of your time.

The next step would be the Victory Offshore Series w/ backing plates. This gives you the look of a K-plane style trim tab with strength to match. $528 for one impressive looking set of tabs! With the backing plates you're looking at about 2 hours for the complete install.

Now for the 'bling bling'. The ultimate setup would be the Victory Offshore Series w/ backing plates utilizing the mirror finish option. There is nothing like a polished 316 stainless steel tab! When these are bolted to your transom expect to be the envy of fellow boaters and friends alike. :rolleyes: :biggrin.: These babies sell for $699 and once again will only take approximately two hours out of your afternoon.

Black powder coat is just the beginning. For only an additional $30/ pr. I can offer you a choice of Mercury High Performance blue, Bright yellow or Victory red. These are my most popular colors. Of course, I have 100's of colors available at varying prices. Metallics, candies, you name it!



So, my advice ChromeGorilla? Forget about filling holes and save your cash for Christmas! You already have the rest of the system installed. Feel free to call or email anytime. As a matter of fact I have a TOLL FREE number coming, effective Thursday Dec.2/04 1 888 386 8282. Hope this helps with the decision-making.

[Dr. Dan]

:p Rick...My 22 behaves the same...I have always"Indexed both my Drive and my Tabs" ...meaning I know where they are in relationship to Parallel to the Running Surface of the Hull!

It can change if ya change fluid, bleed your sytem or just change with temp and pressure differences...at least that has been my experience. I have Tab and of course Trim indicator...and I note what each is at effectively Neutral or Zero Trim and Tab. What I have found is that in full Neutral...given a "consistent operational speed"...the hull performs and flies virtually perfect like a plane...no radical porpoise, no insane Sky launches...excluding monster wakes or swells of course. Basically if the conditions represent themselves as a consistent chop...I can run up to red line with very predictable Hull response....in fact last Season with Undertakers 33 ZX and Bryan Tuvell's new 33 ZX I was running well into the 70's in consistent chop and the sucker was absolutely impressive. If I went full up on the Tabs....the Hull would be more likely to Sky if I was to hit the random rogue wake...which can result in a quick change of underwear!!!! :bonk:

But I love the ability to run the 22 with the Drive in Neutral Trim and Zero Tab(not Negative) and it is very predictable.

Just ask Undertaker or Tuvell...short of the nuts 4' or higher waves...it cruises right along...now maybe the Large King Cobra assists this behavior...which I believe it does...more so than a Bravo set up...and I have had objective input from others also that will echo this behavior...so its kinda cool....only thing is ...it behaves sooooo well that I am forgoing doing a drive change for my 2nd Phase..until I just destroy the King or I have $15 Grand burning a hole in my pocket that I just gotta do the Arneson...but for now...it more than scratches my itch! :spit:

Doc of Bewilderment :D

[Tomahawk]

Several points here:
1. Both Chrome G and Rick S are running new boats with a new engine/drive package. Different than most here. Therefore, what I am about to say may not apply to you guys - then again, maybe it does.
2. I, too, never use the tabs for anything but side to side balance. The faster you go, the less they are needed for that. Other than that, 95% of the time, they are full up.
3. If my boat starts to porpoise, I can always correct by either more throttle or less trim on the outdrive.
4. I'm guessing here that both Rick and Chrome are using the prop that came with the boat, that being the Mirage Plus. I don't. The Mirage Plus came on our boats because that is probably the best prop Mercury has for the Classic. I think you may have something Rick. Try a Turbo 1 (I think they have a 27") or Hydomotive. My experience has been that the Mirage Plus, while a very good prop, provides more diameter, more cup, more rake and more bow lift than is needed for a classic hull. Those things will cause the syptoms you describe. On my boat, the Turbo 1 in 25" pitch, improved handling, both porpoising and chine walk, and improved top speed as well. I run 70 to 72 at about 4900 rpm with a 454 Mag and Bravo I with the stock 1.5/1 gears.
5. The tabs on my boat are the Trim Masters and they are not particularly speedy but, it doesn't matter because they are full up most of the time anyway. It would be worth trying a different prop before before spending time and money trying to induce more drag, faster.
Good luck to both of you.

[undertaker]

I must admit Doc runs like a bat out of hell with his 22 classic but its very under control, he runs with my 33ZX in rough chop with no problem, his boat runs very flat no launchs or porpouising (spelling), I rode in his boat at the Owners Rally and was very very :yes: impressed with the ride and stability. Now I want a 22 for myself :yes: (thanks Doc).

Chrome I think I would put indicators on your tabs first, I feel its very important to know where your tabs are at all times. I rarely use my tabs on my 33ZX but when I do its nice to know where they are. I also had a 28ZX with bennetts and NO indicators and ended up putting indicators on and I felt a lot better about the handling of the boat because I knew where the tabs where at all times. Good luck in your decision. :shades:

[RickSE]

Yes, mine is an 02' with a lab finished 25P Mirage+. I'm still up in the air about what prop to try. The smaller dia. 3-blade Turbo-1 or the larger dia. 4-blade Hydro? Seems like the Hydro would really hurt the top end but I know a lot of guys here have had success running the Hydro. What does diameter do again? Lift??

See Chrome we've found more stuff for you to spend money on. You now need to add indicators and a new prop. :boggled: Next you'll need to blueprint your hull.

Doc, nice to know someone else has similar experiences. Would be cool to get all the 500 boats together one day. So far one in PA, MI, AZ, NH(?) & one lost in Canada(?).

[Team Jefe]

Tabs up and forget about them.

If you start to "Flipper" go faster...maybe a trim adjustment.

I have been in Damned Yankee at 75 MPH....solid as a rock....grin from ear to ear (and I wasn't even driving)

....who the hell needs tabs

[donzi182003]

Chromegorilla,

Imo The Only Way To Get A Very Fast Response From Your Tabs Is To Get The Lenco Racing Trim Tabs. They Respond Instantly. And Also The Factory Is Very Friendly And They Value Their Customers. I Have Both Bennetts And Lencos, And I Am Going To Do Away With The Bennetts On My 25 Contender. I Think Bennetts Are Great Tabs But If Your Complaining About Response Time, You Cant Beat An Electric Actuator. I Have A Buddy With A 2003 22' Classic 496 Ho That Has The Same Complaint As You Do. He Gets Jealous Of My Tabs Everytime He Rides On My Donzi.:)