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Pismo
10-25-2004, 03:02 PM
I am putting external hydraulic steering on my 22 this winter. Any suggestions as to which brand is best for the money, should I go single or dual ram, any tips, anyone know a good seller, any pitfalls, etc.

Trickmarine.net any good?


Thanks

ITTLFLI
10-25-2004, 03:25 PM
My good friend Allan Hilsinger at hilsingermotorsports.com sells the XS steering system. I had the same system on my cat and plan on adding it to my classic this winter. At least check the system out. You will not find a better system for the money! Tell him I sent you and to give you the Scholle motorsport DISCOUNT! That goes for anybody also. The best way to reach him is at 513-616-6147.

Thanks,

Byron Scholle

MOP
10-25-2004, 03:28 PM
From what I have gathered go with dual ram, at 70+ single just won't do the job well. Most say single is OK to mid 60's but go dual anyway, at 70 and above you need the extra support that two rams give. The pros I have spoken with say the Gimbel takes a bad beating at high speed with single or internal.

Phil

Hilsinger Motorsports
10-26-2004, 01:48 PM
Hi guys, (moderator, if I am overstepping the rules please let me know, I don't want to step on any toes).

As ITLLFLI said, we (Hilsinger Motorsports, LLC/H2 Motorsports LLC) are dealers for XS Performance Marine. They make excellent steering systems and are priced lower than IMCO, WPM, Latham and Marine Machine. We have sold many of these systems and they are always met with very positive feedback from the customers, some of them being machinists and high performance gurus. I am happy to offer a group discount for 3 or more systems, as our general offer. The systems carry a 2 year manufacturer's warranty and the cylinders carry a lifetime manufacturer's warranty.

If anyone is interested or if the Donzi.net board administrators would like to contact me about a group purchase, please call me (O 513-598-9410 or Cell 513-616-6147) or e-mail me at Raceteam48@hilsingermotorsports.com. I will be happy to answer all questions.

As for the single cylinder vs. dual cylinder systems, to me it is quite simple. We do not sell a single cylinder system. I feel they do not accomplish from a safety vantage point what a steering system is supposed to accomplish. In so doing, the customer, in my opinion, is not getting what he is paying for. Dual cylinder is the way to go, rather it be an add-on or full system.

Thanks guys :)

Rootsy
10-26-2004, 07:15 PM
My good friend Allan Hilsinger at hilsingermotorsports.com sells the XS steering system. I had the same system on my cat and plan on adding it to my classic this winter. At least check the system out. You will not find a better system for the money! Tell him I sent you and to give you the Scholle motorsport DISCOUNT! That goes for anybody also. The best way to reach him is at 513-616-6147.

Thanks,

Byron Scholle


hey byron can i back date this offer :D

RickR
10-26-2004, 07:35 PM
Hilsinger Motorsports

What is the difference between a "add on" and a "full system"?

What is the regular price for each?

Thanks!

Hilsinger Motorsports
10-26-2004, 08:11 PM
Hi Rick, good question.

The add-on system is installed to operate from the existing steering valve (mounted on the inner transom plate, in the engine room, on your transom) back to the outdrive. The factory steering cable from the helm (steering wheel) to the steering valve itself is untouched. From steering valve back you will run an adaptor (attatched to steering valve), hydraulic lines through the transom, to the cylinders. The cylinders mount to the transom and a wingplate which you will install on your outdrive. Think of it as the "back half" of the system.

The full hydraulic system is basically the add on, plus the proper hardware to run hydraulic lines to the helm itself, attatching to a helm unit we supply you, among other parts supplied. By this you will have hydrualic control over the entire system, from helm to outdrive, as opposed to the add-on system where you are controling hydraulic cylinders with the factory steering cable. Each has it's advantages, but the full hydraulic system is the ultimate for performance, safety and comfort. As well, it is more expensive. Consider this though, we have had several customers who have purchased the add-on as a "first step". They plan to then upgrade to the full system in time. This way you can break down the purchase price, as well you might find the add-on takes care of your needs. Buying the kit in two parts will cost more in the long run, however, you will only discard the Steering Valve Adaptor when you step up from a add-on to a full system.

XS does make a wingplate for Alpha drives, so we can handle orders for Alpha equiped Donzis.

As for pricing, retail is as follows:

Add-on single drive, twin cylinder $1995
Add-on twin drive, twin cylinder $2295
Full single drive $2995
Full twin drive $3249

All kits are complete with all parts, fittings and hoses. Kits carry the warranties mentioned above.

Group discounts are available for purchases of 3 or more.

I hope that helps. Let me know if you need more info.

Thanks guys,

Allan Hilsinger:)

ITTLFLI
10-26-2004, 09:24 PM
hey byron can i back date this offer :D


LOL!!! Doesn't hurt to try!!! :smile:

Dr. Dan
10-26-2004, 10:23 PM
:spongebob Allan...OK I'll bite.... how about us King Cobra Guys? Do you or could you make Systems for us....there are more than a few of us here...that would be interested?

Thanks.....In Advance

Doc :beer:

Hilsinger Motorsports
10-26-2004, 11:18 PM
Howdy Doc,

We had an inquiry about King Cobra drives a few months ago. At that time it was a go, so I am sure it is the same status, but let me double check tomorrow and post the confirmation.

Thanks for the post
Allan :)

knots2u
10-27-2004, 04:24 AM
If the engine should fail at speed do you still have full steering control with both set ups or only with the hydraulics at the helm?

Hilsinger Motorsports
10-27-2004, 02:12 PM
You will have steering control with both setups, although it will be very stiff at the wheel. You have to wiegh the pros and cons. Think of it this way, every race boat has full hydraulic steering. They understand the pros and cons and when their lives are on the line, they opt for full hydrualic steering.

But to answer the question, yes, you will have steering capabilities if the motor shuts off, but it will be very stiff.

Doc, I have a call into XS, waiting to hear back. Thanks.

Allan

RickSE
10-27-2004, 03:47 PM
I have a very beefy factory installed single ram Latham system on my 22 and have no problems. The boat is rock solid above 70-MPH.

BTW, The factory barrel rolled a 33 or 38 in the Gulf a few years ago when they lost the motor with the steering pump in a turn. The dealer who was along for the ride was not very happy. Somehow he managed to hang on and climb back into the cockpit only to find that the driver was gone, bobbing in the water.

MOP
10-27-2004, 04:25 PM
My main question is, is there any change of force on the gimble between single and dual? I was told that with any type internal steering the force on the gimble was severe at high speed and subject to any wear in the unit as a whole contributing to flaky steering performance. Now when you go to external I was told that takes most of the load off the pivot in the gimble, are there any load transfer differences between single and dual hydaulic. I have worked on this stuff for many years, granted 99% stock OEM installations, to me if a system is bled properly it is rock hard and allows only the tiniest bit unwanted motion. I would think that single would do as well as dual, I have noticed most racing dual engine setups have one ram per drive with a tie bar for sync and run HP well and above our Classic dreams so why would not a single on a single be just fine.

Phil

Hilsinger Motorsports
10-27-2004, 06:25 PM
Phil,

My main concern with the single cylinder system is that if you would have a gimbal ring failure and the entire assembly would release from the boat, with a single cylinder you have absolutely no protection. Your drive will only be attatched to the transom by one cylinder, which will allow the drive to flop uncontrolably and if you are traveling fast enough, flip the boat or "cause" the boat to veer hard right or left. If you have 2 cylinders you are attatched to the transom at two points. If you would have a gimbal ring failure as described above your drive will set straight down into the water and greatly reduce your chance at losing control of the boat. The thing that finally convinced me not to sell the single cylinder system (although I was pretty sure I would not) was when a well known member of OSO and Boatfreaks told me that he still has lingering symptoms from a head injury he suffered during a boating accident when the single cylinder system caused the boat to violently change direction when the gimbal ring failed. If he had two cylinders at the time, he would not have been injured.

It is not an issue of two cylinders having more psi than one so the drive wont shift, it is a geometry issue where the # of attatchments to the transom is the key. The cylinders have about 1300psi each so pressure loss is not the concern. One last idea, with two cylinders you have a "back up" incase something bizarre would take place. Finally....2 cylindrs look cooler :wink:

As for the King Cobra setup, XS can make a wingplate for this drive, but they do not have one in production. It would be a custom part. There would be some hoops to jump thru that I can discuss with you thru e-mail or by phone if you want to pursue this option.

Thanks guys,
Allan

MOP
10-27-2004, 06:50 PM
Allan that makes a very point for the guys that will get into the 70 range. Now what about guys like me that are putting together mouse motor projects in 22 C's, it will probably run mid 60's top end but only now and then. I use the boat for work and fun and am shooting for a 45-50 cruise don't much care about top end. I am going to be running a Blackhawk drive which many say cancels out most if not all of the steering torque, I am considering steering options and pocket book depth. Jamie is running a single assist system and seems pleased with it turning some high speeds for a 16, I am considering going the same way for my initial setup.

Hilsinger Motorsports
10-27-2004, 08:24 PM
Hi MOP,

It is my belief that any boat that runs over 55 or 60 needs to have atleast a twin cylinder setup. When it comes to safety I think you need to take reasonable precautions. The single cylinder is certainly better than running a bare drive, but it does not "fully" accomplish what an external add-on system is designed to accomplish. It will help dramatically incase of a steering cable failure, etc., but do nothing in the event of gimbal ring failure.

What it comes down to is that I just don't feel comfortable selling a customer something when I feel it is not taking care of a problem the customer is trying to solve.

At the same time, I certainly understand that opinions vary and surely respect that. Just trying to give my input and advice.

Jamie had many of the components for his steering system and wanted a single cylinder system so we worked out a deal where we sold him just the cylinder. I advised him of my position and he acknowledged that. However, if he wanted to buy an kit with just one cylinder I would have declined. I realize that may seem a bit contradictory, but he, to be honest, knew as much or more than I did about hydrualics in general and I felt he was educated enough to know the pros and cons of the situation.

So....please understand I am just trying to look out for the best interest of my customers. I am not going to sell just for profit if I feel that my customer is not getting what he is paying for and trying to accomplish, which is the safety improvement aspect.

Thanks,
Allan

Pismo
11-01-2004, 06:46 AM
What size rams work best on the 22 Classic? I see you can buy 8 1/4", 9 1/4", or 10 1/4".

There is also a variable for the "ML" which is the distance from the outside of the Bravo transom assem on the hull measured out to the outside of the ram bracket that bolts to the hull. The choices are 9 3/4" or 11 1/4".

Anyone have any idea which of these is correct for the 22 Classic with single Bravo. My goal is dual ram and to keep as much turning ability as possible.


THanks
Pismo

Hilsinger Motorsports
11-01-2004, 10:18 AM
Hi Pismo,

The standard cylinder (8 1/4" stroke) should work fine. As far as mounting, generally your mounting bracket that will be mounted on the transom on either side of the drive (at drive pivot centerline) will need clearance at 9 1/4" to 12". Or, in other words, the mounting brackets are 2 3/4" wide. XS can customize brackets if needed in the event of a clearance issue.

Thanks,
Allan