Election Meaning Editorial

[harbormaster]

One of the best dissertations on the importance of this election I have seen. A must read! From the Wed 06 Oct 2004 issue of the Ellensburg Daily Record (Ellensburg, Washington)... written by Mathew Manweller... Central Washington University political science professor...

"Election determines fate of nation"

"In that this will be my last column before the presidential election, there will be no sarcasm, no attempts at witty repartee. The topic is too serious, and the stakes are too high.

This November we will vote in the only election during our lifetime that will truly matter. Because America is at a once-in-a-generation crossroads, more than an election hangs in the balance. Down one path lies retreat, abdication and a reign of ambivalence. Down the other lies a nation that is aware of its past and accepts the daunting obligation its future demands. If we choose poorly, the consequences will echo through the next 50 years of history. If we, in a spasm of frustration, turn out the current occupant of the White House, the message to the world and ourselves will be two-fold.

First, we will reject the notion that America can do big things. Once a nation that tamed a frontier, stood down the Nazis and stood upon the moon, we will announce to the world that bringing democracy to the Middle East is too big of a task for us. But more significantly, we will signal to future presidents that as voters, we are unwilling to tackle difficult challenges, preferring caution to boldness, embracing the mediocrity that has characterized other civilizations. The defeat of President Bush will send a chilling message to future presidents who may need to make difficult, yet unpopular decisions. America has always been a nation that rises to the demands of history regardless of the costs or appeal. If we turn away from that legacy, we turn away from who we are.

Second, we inform every terrorist organization on the globe that the lesson of Somalia was well learned. In Somalia we showed terrorists that you don't need to defeat America on the battlefield when you can defeat them in the newsroom. They learned that a wounded America can become a defeated America.

Twenty-four-hour news stations and daily tracing polls will do the heavy lifting, turning a cut into a fatal blow. Except that Iraq is Somalia times 10. The election of John Kerry will serve notice to every terrorist in every cave that the soft underbelly of American power is the timidity of American voters. Terrorists will know that a steady stream of grizzly photos for CNN is all you need to break the will of the American people. Our own self-doubt will take it from there. Bin Laden will recognize that he can topple any American administration without setting foot on the homeland.
It is said that America's W.W.II generation is its 'greatest generation'. But my greatest fear is that it will become known as America's 'last generation.' Born in the bleakness of the Great Depression and hardened in the fire of WW II, they may be the last American generation that understands the meaning of duty, honor and sacrifice. It is difficult to admit, but I know these terms are spoken with only hollow detachment by many (but not all) in my generation. Too many citizens today mistake 'living in America' as 'being an American.' But America has always been more of an idea than a place. When you sign on, you do more than buy real estate. You accept a set of values and responsibilities.

This November, my generation, which has been absent too long, must grasp the obligation that comes with being an American, or fade into the oblivion they may deserve. I believe that 100 years from now historians will look back at the election of 2004 and see it as the decisive election of our century. Depending on the outcome, they will describe it as the moment America joined the ranks of ordinary nations; or they will describe it as the moment the prodigal sons and daughters of the greatest generation accepted their burden as caretakers of the City on the Hill."

Mathew Manweller

[Digger]

concur.

[goatee]

if i would have wrote that letter, it would have been better.


my name is john kerry and i approve this message.










IF worms had machine guns, the birds would'nt muck with them!

[RedDog]

[QUOTE=goatee]if i would have wrote that letter, it would have been better.


my name is john kerry and i approve this message.

QUOTE]

...but do you have a plan to write it better?

[MissRepublican]

He has a plan to have a plan...and that plan is...that he has a plan...


That letter should be a real gut-check and I hope people forward it to as many people as possible.

[gcarter]

He has a plan to have a plan...and that plan is...that he has a plan...


That letter should be a real gut-check and I hope people forward it to as many people as possible.

Well stated Darcy!
For those of you who are old enough to have grown up in the '50's, there was a popular song that should be the Kerry theme song, and who's title is;
"Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better!"
Additionally, those of you who might wonder what kind of military leader Kerry would be should read;
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/804suggy.asp
And finally since we have so much fun with the French on this site, read;
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/10/20/business/euecon.html
Poor Frogs can't seem to get anything right! :biggrin:

[Digger]

good stuff there George. I love the IHT, I used to get it daily when I was on the West coast. I think its the best paper available, just wish it wasn't so hard to get a copy.

Back on topic: any American who is not very concerned at the prospect of Kerry becoming President is either:

a) extremely wealthy
b) a pacifist
c) thinks it is a good idea to allow others, such as pollsters, foreign countries, or the UN to decide what action is in America's best interest. (read: UNWILLING OR UNABLE TO STAND ON PRINCIPLE)

or

d) any combination of the above

[Formula Jr]

"Election determines fate of nation"

"In that this will be my last column before the presidential election, there will be no sarcasm, no attempts at witty repartee. The topic is too serious, and the stakes are too high.

I agree Mr. Manweller, the stakes are too high.

This November we will vote in the only election during our lifetime that will truly matter.

All elections matter Mr. Manweller, not just this one.

Because America is at a once-in-a-generation crossroads, more than an election hangs in the balance. Down one path lies retreat, abdication and a reign of ambivalence. Down the other lies a nation that is aware of its past and accepts the daunting obligation its future demands.

Bull ****. You don't have the luxury of knowing the future or if there will be a "reign of ambivalence."

If we choose poorly, the consequences will echo through the next 50 years of history.

I agree.

If we, in a spasm of frustration, turn out the current occupant of the White House, the message to the world and ourselves will be two-fold.

No, it isn't two fold, or three fold, or any fold. You're just using a very amature polemic device here by restricting the choices between your straw man argument and your proscriptive ideology.

First, we will reject the notion that America can do big things.

We reject nothing Mr.Manweller. You presume too much.

Once a nation that tamed a frontier,

You mean killed a bunch of indigious people?

stood down the Nazis

We did that reluctantly. Many were sympathetic with Social Nationalism. Including Henry Ford. And sorry to burst some bubbles, but the war was won by Stalin and the Russians. We were losing till the pact was broken. And if Hitler had not invaded Russia, or the Japanese not done something as stupid as they did, the world would be very different today.

and stood upon the moon, we will announce to the world that bringing democracy to the Middle East is too big of a task for us.

Bring? I thought the whole idea was to "sell" democracy to the rest of the world as a better form of government. The fit of frustration you speak of, was the fact that we couldn't and don't seem to be able to sell it to an islamic nation: So let's just start conquering.


But more significantly, we will signal to future presidents that as voters, we are unwilling to tackle difficult challenges, preferring caution to boldness, embracing the mediocrity that has characterized other civilizations. The defeat of President Bush will send a chilling message to future presidents who may need to make difficult, yet unpopular decisions. America has always been a nation that rises to the demands of history regardless of the costs or appeal. If we turn away from that legacy, we turn away from who we are.

Or, we may signal to the world that Democracy works.
That is, of coarse, once we getting it working again here.

Second, we inform every terrorist organization on the globe that the lesson of Somalia was well learned. In Somalia we showed terrorists that you don't need to defeat America on the battlefield when you can defeat them in the newsroom. They learned that a wounded America can become a defeated America.

Then Mr. Manweller, if that's your premise, why wasn't Bush's FIRST act in office a resumption of the democratization of the Somalis?

Twenty-four-hour news stations and daily tracing polls will do the heavy lifting, turning a cut into a fatal blow. Except that Iraq is Somalia times 10. The election of John Kerry will serve notice to every terrorist in every cave that the soft underbelly of American power is the timidity of American voters. Terrorists will know that a steady stream of grizzly photos for CNN is all you need to break the will of the American people. Our own self-doubt will take it from there. Bin Laden will recognize that he can topple any American administration without setting foot on the homeland.

Who do you think Sadam was interrogating and killing in Iraq? This is the Lie of the century that Sadam was working with any terrorist against the US. We can't even charge him with anything under US law.

It is said that America's W.W.II generation is its 'greatest generation'. But my greatest fear is that it will become known as America's 'last generation.' Born in the bleakness of the Great Depression and hardened in the fire of WW II, they may be the last American generation that understands the meaning of duty, honor and sacrifice.

Once again you presume too much. It is just as honorable to depose an American Despot. Hitler and his "Great Depresssion Generation" had his call for "Duty, Honor and Sacrifice" also. If you forgot, it was called, "Guns Before Butter."

It is difficult to admit, but I know these terms are spoken with only hollow detachment by many (but not all) in my generation. Too many citizens today mistake 'living in America' as 'being an American.' But America has always been more of an idea than a place. When you sign on, you do more than buy real estate. You accept a set of values and responsibilities.

I didn't "Sign On to BE an American." I was Born One. This country is Sovereign to me. I am not Sovereign to it. And in no way is it Sovereign to a God. I may be Sovereign to a God, but my country isn't.

If you don't understand this Mr. Manweller, YOU do not understand what it means to be an American. I suggest reading the constitution one of these days.

This November, my generation, which has been absent too long, must grasp the obligation that comes with being an American,

You use that word "Obligation" again. I don't have an "Obligation" to do anything an elected official calls for. The only obligation I have, is to be true to my values and beliefs.

or fade into the oblivion they may deserve. I believe that 100 years from now historians will look back at the election of 2004 and see it as the decisive election of our century. Depending on the outcome, they will describe it as the moment America joined the ranks of ordinary nations; or they will describe it as the moment the prodigal sons and daughters of the greatest generation accepted their burden as caretakers of the City on the Hill."

Mathew Manweller


I know what that city should look like Mr. Manweller. And in that city, people come because they want to, not because they have to.

[half shell]

I am from Massachusetts and I will tell you ,if J F Kerry does to the nation what he has done to MA. God help us.

One thing I will say when Bush wins this election I hope it is by a good margin.If it is a close race it will show how bad things have gotten in this land.

Regards Bob

[ToonaFish]

I am from Massachusetts and I will tell you, if J F Kerry does to the nation what he has done to MA. God help us.

I am from the United States and I've seen what Bush has done to our great nation.

http://www.theunionleader.com/Articles_show.html?article=44657&archive=1

http://www.easthamptonstar.com/20040909/col5.htm

Caveat: I know better than to argue politics on a boating forum.

But I'm still waiting for the weapons of mass destruction to surface. I'm still waiting for our economy to recover. I'm still waiting for the alternatives to stem cell research to be discovered. I'm still waiting for the trial of the man who declared war on the United States and murdered thousands of our citizens. Heck, I'm still waiting for the arrest of that terrorist by the greatest, most powerful nation on earth. And his name is Osama Bin Laden, President Bush, not Saddam Hussein.

Bunches,

Celene 'and both the idiot candidates support the violatation of my first and fourth amendment rights...'

[MissRepublican]

This November we will vote in the only election during our lifetime that will truly matter.

All elections matter Mr. Manweller, not just this one.



Indeed, all elections DO matter; however, in light of the current geopolitical situation, this one has the potential for more significant long-range impact than any election since WWII.



Bull ****. You don't have the luxury of knowing the future or if there will be a "reign of ambivalence."



While no one person can claim to know the future, it is a reasonably safe bet that the future will change dramatically if a pandering, appeasement-minded treasonous Kerry is elected. But all that aside, Kerry's implication that he would support the Kyoto protocol would in itself have a $100 to 400 billion dollar effect on our GDP per ANNUM.




If we, in a spasm of frustration, turn out the current occupant of the White House, the message to the world and ourselves will be two-fold.

No, it isn't two fold, or three fold, or any fold. You're just using a very amature [sic] polemic device here by restricting the choices between your straw man argument and your proscriptive ideology.



First, this is not a “straw man” fallacy. While the liberal Bush-hating left may assert that they have a stronger argument than national security, they, and you, have yet to posit it.



Second, a visceral hatred of this President hardly constructs a strong argument in support of the alternative candidate. Most Democrats aren’t voting FOR an ideology, a plan, or a set of goals; rather, they are voting AGAINST President Bush.



The message we would send to the world should John Kerry be elected has far more impact than a mere duo of dire consequences. For instance:




We would lead the world to believe that the vast majority of Americans blame AMERICA for the attacks of 9-11, instead of the Islamo-fascist terrorists.
We would demonstrate to the world that not only do we not care that a sitting president had the morals of a randy tomcat, in the person of Bill Clinton, but we don’t care that a sitting president committed treason by meeting with representatives of a foreign government, without authorization, and while a sworn officer of the US military.
We would confirm the belief held by many euro snobs that we haven’t the intellect to support substance over style; hope and action over hubris and reaction.
We would show the world that the United States and her citizens can be browbeaten and misled by a blatantly partisan anti-establishment Vietnam-war protesting media.
We would prove that we are once again willing to abandon those to whom we have committed to assist, such as we did in Vietnam (due in part to Kerry), which resulted in the murder of over 300,000 anti-communist south Vietnamese, and as we did in Iraq in 1991, which resulted in 300-500,000 bodies in mass graves; victims of the Hussein regime.


I could go on, but I think you see my point.




First, we will reject the notion that America can do big things.

We reject nothing Mr.Manweller. You presume too much.



Au contraire, good sir. The election of Hanoi John Kerry would reject the notion that the United States has an inalienable right to defend her own interests regardless of the good opinion of the French, the Germans, or other esteemed “allies,” who view us as a tool to be directed only under the auspices of the United Nations, save where our foreign aid is concerned.



It would reject the notion that there are behavioral standards for those who are subject to the codes of conduct as dictated by the Uniform Code of Military Justice.



It would reject the idea that truth, honor, and integrity are desirable traits in the leader of the free world.



It would reject the notion that a man should be held accountable for his statements, and that he should hold true to his tenets.



Once a nation that tamed a frontier,

You mean killed a bunch of indigious [sic] people?

If the indigenous populace of the Americas had been able to defend their borders from the European invasion, we wouldn't be discussing this. If Spain hadn't claimed Mexico, the Incas and the Mayans would still be running things. If France and England hadn't claimed Canada, Quebec wouldn't be speaking French and Calgary wouldn't be speaking English. The Iroquois would have a big back yard.



It is the way of the world that more adaptable, more powerful, and more evolved (meaning further along in the development and use of simple or complex tools that: a) make survival easier, b) allow more adaptability to the environment, and c) allow people to spend less time on survival activities and more time on "leisure" or non-subsistence activities, etc.) creatures, man or beast, will dominate, eliminate, or relocate those less developed and yes, less evolved, creatures, who preceded them in any given environment.

Does anyone really think that the Mayans, Inca, Iroquois, and other aboriginal peoples didn't come take land from whoever preceded them? Does anyone really think that the aboriginal societies would have evolved without the constant influx of new peoples and new ideas?

stood down the Nazis

We did that reluctantly. Many were sympathetic with Social Nationalism. Including Henry Ford. And sorry to burst some bubbles, but the war was won by Stalin and the Russians. We were losing till the pact was broken. And if Hitler had not invaded Russia, or the Japanese not done something as stupid as they did, the world would be very different today.



Our reluctance and its consequences vis a vis the Holocaust taught us that isolationism doesn’t work. Further, the assertion that the Second World War was won due to Stalin and the Russians is a gross misstatement, and denigrates the service and the actions of every veteran of that war. That doesn’t surprise me, given the current bent of the Democratic Party and its acceptance of those who repeatedly betray American troops while these same troops are at war.

[MissRepublican]

Or, we may signal to the world that Democracy works. That is, of coarse, once we getting it working again here.



The 2000 election is proof that our system DOES work. The only party trying to subvert the democratic process is the DEMOCRATIC PARTY. Note the following:


Kerry has asserted that he will “be quick to declare victory on election night and begin defending it.” He also will be prepared to name a national security team before knowing whether he's secured the presidency.
Kerry has employed six so-called "SWAT teams" of lawyers and political operatives will be situated around the country with fueled-up jets awaiting Kerry's orders to speed to a battleground state. The teams have been told to be ready to fly on the evening of the election to begin mounting legal and political fights. No team will be more than an hour from a battleground.
Kerry has lawyers ready to contest elections when there isn't a scintilla of evidence that Republicans plan to commit election fraud -- yet there is a mountain of evidence that Democrats plan to do so and have already begun doing it. You have to believe that these people cannot possibly respect the integrity of this constitutional system when they're willing to jeopardize it all to win -- the ends justify the means.
While the lawyers litigate, political operatives will try to shape public perception. Their goal would be to persuade voters that Kerry has the best claim to the presidency and that Republicans are trying to steal it.
Democrats are already laying the public relations groundwork by pointing to every possible voting irregularity before the Nov. 2 election and accusing Republicans of wrongdoing


Then Mr. Manweller, if that's your premise, why wasn't Bush's FIRST act in office a resumption of the democratization of the Somalis?



This rhetoric is so outrageous that I won’t bother to reply. Shame, shame!


Who do you think Sadam was interrogating and killing in Iraq? This is the Lie of the century that Sadam was working with any terrorist against the US. We can't even charge him with anything under US law.



Speaking of polemic straw men arguments…are you suggesting that Saddam was a harmless and benevolent leader?




There is a proven relationship between Hussein and al Qaeda dating back to 1992.
Hussein, if you recall, paid $25,000 to the families of each Palestinian homicide bomber.
There are proven relationships between Hussein and Abu Nidal, Islamic Jihad, the Mujahideen, and many other terrorist organizations. To state otherwise is blatantly false.


Once again you presume too much. It is just as honorable to depose an American Despot. Hitler and his "Great Depresssion [sic] Generation" had his call for "Duty, Honor and Sacrifice" also. If you forgot, it was called, "Guns Before Butter."



An “American Despot?” What hate-infested, Michael Moore philosophy is this? Your masked allegation that this president is akin to Hitler is endemic of the visceral hatred that drives you. It is sickening.

I didn't "Sign On to BE an American." I was Born One. This country is Sovereign to me. I am not Sovereign to it. And in no way is it Sovereign to a God. I may be Sovereign to a God, but my country isn't.

If you don't understand this Mr. Manweller, YOU do not understand what it means to be an American. I suggest reading the constitution one of these days.



I have read the Constitution. I understand it, and I respect it. Being born American is a blessing, and freedom is a responsibility in and of itself. A refusal to accept that premise would be understandable from a member of a political party which believes that the government has an obligation to take care of all of her citizens; an obligation to solve all the problems an individual or a society faces: your statement sounds more like promulgation of anarchy.



A man who has nothing for which he willing to fight; nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety; is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.


You use that word "Obligation" again. I don't have an "Obligation" to do anything an elected official calls for. The only obligation I have, is to be true to my values and beliefs.



I believe that we do have an obligation to something greater than the hedonistic pursuit of self-gratification. I believe that as citizens of this country, we are obliged to defend her, by word for some; by deed, for others. I believe there is a higher objective and a greater sense of faith in freedom, of respect for the sacrifices and the efforts of our forbearers, of honor for the tenets upon which this nation was founded. There are obligations that extend further than one’s own interests. It is ironic that a Reagan Republican; a gunboat diplomatist; a “cowboy capitalist’ such as I; has a greater grasp of that concept than a person of tolerance and diversity.



“He who takes the oath today to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States only assumes the solemn obligation which every patriotic citizen—on the farm, in the workshop, in the busy marts of trade, and everywhere—should share with him. The Constitution which prescribes his oath, my countrymen, is yours; the Government you have chosen him to administer for a time is yours; the suffrage which executes the will of freemen is yours; the laws and the entire scheme of our civil rule, from the town meeting to the State capitals and the national capital, is yours.”




I know what that city should look like Mr. Manweller. And in that city, people come because they want to, not because they have to.



I, too, know what that city should look like, and I’d refer you to the words of Thomas Paine.



“Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it.”

[MissRepublican]

I know that this is a boating forum; therefore perhaps inappropriate, but the thread WAS a political one. I also understand that the person I hold in the highest esteem on this earth might be displeased with my post; it may be my last. However, the blatant untruths and visceral hatred demonstrated by the preceding post, to which I responded, led me to post my answer.

I can and will provide documented proof of every statement made to refute the previous post.

I apologize if I have offended anyone, but I couldn't let such an attack stand without defending my country and my president. I hope you will understand.

Darcy

[Formula Jr]

Darcy, hey.... post away.. Thats what its all about....
A war of ideas is alot better than one of jacketed-lead, no sleep, and high explosives.

By the way, i own more guns than you do. :hyper:

[half shell]

Toona I was not trying to argue just voting a little early for my candidate BUSH.
For the last 20 years I have tried to convince my favorite liberal aunt to leave the dark side and vote R
Lets just say she has cured my argumenitive ways but not my conscience.

Best regards from the peoples republic of Massachusetts.
Bob

[gcarter]

I'm in awe Darcy!
The next time I get into a political argument, I'll use you as my proxy! :biggrin.:

[ToonaFish]

Toona I was not trying to argue just voting a little early for my candidate BUSH.
For the last 20 years I have tried to convince my favorite liberal aunt to leave the dark side and vote R
Lets just say she has cured my argumenitive ways but not my conscience.

Best regards from the peoples republic of Massachusetts.
Bob

No offense taken, Bob, I was simply reminding myself that I should know better than to, er discuss politics. Or dog food. Or fuel cells. Or religion. (I should be awfully quiet, huh?) :wink:

I've learned little from people who share exactly my views. And I've certainly expanded my ideological gray areas through the years. And I'd be willing to bet, senility aside, that I might learn a few new tricks before this life is over.

I just wish there were candidates that one could feel would actually accomplish what they promised to do. Or candidates that set out to accomplish agendas that were worthy of the effort.

But our ability to freely discuss politics, argue if you will, is what I most cherish about this country. And neither candidate has shown himself interested in preserving those constitutional rights...

Bunches,

Celene "liking Bob's Aunt!"

[Rootsy]

Ya know, i'm not really a very philosophical kinda guy... i don't sit and ponder the meaning of the universe and such...

maybe i am wrong but the way i see it... elections anymore come down to choosing the lesser of two evils... Both of these guys are saying what they "think" the majority of US citizens want to hear in order to get elected. Each party has their own agendas and causes to further themselves and their idiologies and in the grand scheme of things you and i aren't a big part of it other than a vote to get em into office.. we are just along for the ride and they attempt pacify the grand majority so that we don't get too disgruntled along the way so that in 4 years the big cheese can get reelected...

Blaming the president for such things as high oil prices, jobs sent overseas the high cost of health care is almost ubsurd. He for the most part is powerless to such things... sure he signs a bill that makes certain things binding and legal but if he didn't and it was a big enough potato it'd go right back to congress where it passed in the first place and they'd ratify it themselves.. that's why we have those 3 branches of checks and balances... if you want to blame anyone for the state of the economy blame CORPORATE AMERICA and our generation... the CEO's of multibillion dollar companies... the shareholders and foreign corporations... wall street pretty much makes the world go round anyway... just a big game of supply and demand and profits and piggybanks... if there isn't enough to go around and you need it then you up the anty until the otehr party backs out...

sure thre are things a party can do to help "influence" corporations but in reality a corporation is beholding to none but the shareholders... so long as it abides by the "law" which as we've seen doesnt' even mean much since you can pretty much buy your way out of anything if you have the cash and lawyers...

as far as profits go... if a company doesn't make a profit it cannot reinvest and can't grow.. and shareholders don't like loosing money when the stock price goes down... and executives hate being replaced by the board and love their stock options and big bonus'... profit goes down... jobs are lost... 40% of an average manufactured product is direct labor.. that is the person running the machine or putting it together... for the most part your utility costs, component costs, depreciation, indirect labor, etc are fixed.. therefore you have to either assemble it cheaper or faster... or both... well by going overseas you get rid of a whole lot of expensive, cumbersome handcuffs, you know, OSHA, EPA, Social Security, insurance, 401K's, vacation time, etc etc etc... and you can pay someone 2 bucks an hour to make the same thign you were paying someone 25 bucks and hour to do here... anymore.. a skilled laborer is not needed with the amount of technology and automation available... you can assemble a widget with a multitude of components and damn near guarantee 100% quality without so much as blinking an eye.. process capabilites in the 6 sigma+ range are a reality.. machinery is able to tell you if you so much as blink too many times... so an operator loads some parts and hits start.. OR LESS... out the other end comes you product, automatically boxed and off on a shipping conveyor it goes... sad? YES... do i like it? NO... is it a fact of life today? unfortunately... we all want to make a million bucks a year but the average person doesn't want to pay jack crap for somethign.. well that low price ahs to come from somewhere.. it's one big vicious cycle..

commodities such as gas, oil, steel etc are going through the roof... steel prices along have risen 100 or even 200% in some cases over the last year... yes i know first hand... i buy a lot of steell... but why? CHINA (for example) IS BUYING EVERYTHING... they are having an industrial revolution of sort... due to the previous paragraph... same goes for gas and oil... there is more competition in the market place.. more hands in the cookie jar means less to go around.. so you bid the price up until the other party no longer wants to pay that much... and in turn you pass that increased cost onto the end user.. you and me... look at the profits of the likes of exxon-mobile at this point in time.. listen to economic news shows and hear how shareholders are raving that stock prices are up because of excellent P/E ratios, dividends, profits and growth...

so back to the politics... how can you choose a candidate that is best for the nation as a whole? when each one speaks how do you know if what is coming out of their mouths is what they actaully want of if it is someone else talking... are they puppets? they are trying to get "elected" afterall... how many times have we heard promises in pat elections but have seen no results afterward... listening to the media is a waste of time... what happened to UNBIASED media.. isn't that what it is supposed ot be? CNN is democratic, FOX is republican, yadda yadda yadda... each bashes the other candidate and party, going so far as to fabricate and falsify information that is hurtful to the other.. so what is the use? might as well just turn the stupid tv and radio off... every speaker you hear on tv supporting one side has a bunch of facts that the average joe believes cause some "expert" is speaking on the subject.. with the bias and the lack of ethics and morals in todays society how do you know what to believe and what not ot believe?

so i reckon it boils down to supporting whichever "party" has your best interests, beliefs and morals in common... in the end look back on a candidates past history of voting and explainations on past issues... not what they are spewing forth at this point... it is a very sad state, what has become of elections and of the media... is it better to concentrate on who is elected to congress, both the senate and house of representatives? than be soley concerned with who becomes president? No agenda will go very far if you can't get it through those who actually MAKE the laws and policies of this land... But on the downside... be fearful of who does become president if thre are judicial openings to be filled...

heck i don't know much, politics make my blood boil cause i detest being lied to and being led like a lamb to slaughter... i only know my beliefs, values and morals and from past experience on major issues (gun control, abortion, gay marraige, taxes, yadda yadda yadda yadda) know where each party and those aligned (you and me and everyone else) with them stand... but this is just the tip of the big ole iceburg...

cripe i think i have less answers for myself now than i did 20 minutes ago :boggled: i probably have made those who read this dumber to some extent too :wavey:

JR - poke holes and flame away...

whew good to get that crap off my chest... http://www.donzi.net/forums/images/smilies/puke.gif

[harbormaster]

All,

One of the coolest things about this site is that as a diverse group of individuals who are from a large geographical area we can disagree with each other and still have something in common.

Feel free to post your political beliefs without worrying about offending anyone. This is what this forum is all about. We agree to disagree. Hell we might learn something.

When in all reality because we all like boats and boating then none of us could really be all that bad.

[Lenny]

Like I would ever say anything about your Country and Government Scot Van A. :D Past, present or future. I still want to be able to attend future events and at least get the odd "hello" and share a beer with some DONZI fanatics.

The "political" free society in which you live is best served when foreigners keep their opinions to themselves. At least that is my take on it. I will say that this election will DEFINATELY be worth watching on the tube.

Jamie, that post dumbed me down. So true. And you managed not to take sides in your reply. Very well worded.

Here, our (in what is now just a two party Democracy) Elections are a choice between someone you hate and can't even lay eyes on and someone worse. :eek:

Now, who has a boat that floats in Key West ? :D

[Formula Jr]

I think what has truely been lost in this country is Critical Thinking.
There is so much spin, so much dis-information and so much flip-flopping on both sides that it might well be impossible to really
know the true landscape of American politics today. The press has also failed miserably, as pointed out by Jon Stewart.

By the third paragraph of Manweller's piece, I just got exhausted. Here we go again. But this piece is a particularly stinky example of politcal hackery. He pulls every rhetorical rabbit he can right out of thin air with no real substance behind the words. What really angered me is his basic premise. That, If you don't vote for George Bush, then you are not fulfilling your Obligation as an American.

Hey Professor! Guess which finger I'm holding up!

You will also note, I'm not advocating Kerry over Bush here.
I've made no political statement one way or the other.

I'm saying, don't fall for horse crap like this. If you closely examine how its constructed, and really think beyond the trite tugs on the heart strings, this paper falls apart as nothing more than partisan jabber.

[harbormaster]

Please do not hold back Owen. We want to know how you really feel... :cistineb: :biggrin: :biggrin:

[Lenny]

Something for Jamie in regards to cheap labour.


COMMISSION RELEASES STUDY ON THE IMPACT OF
U.S. PRODUCTION SHIFTS TO CHINA
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contacts: Kathy Michels (202) 624-1409
October 15, 2004 kmichels@uscc.gov
Web site: www.uscc.gov
Washington, D.C. – The U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission today released a study titled
“The Changing Nature of Corporate Global Restructuring: The Impact of Production Shifts on Jobs in the
U.S., China, and Around the Globe.” The study was jointly prepared for the Commission by Dr. Kate
Bronfenbrenner of Cornell University and Dr. Stephanie Luce of the University of Massachusetts, Amherst.
The authors conducted an extensive media-tracking exercise that examined a broad array of media sources for
news of firm and job relocations. The study covered the period January 1, 2004 to March 31, 2004, and
constitutes a follow-up to a prior study done for the Commission covering the period October 1, 2000 to April
30, 2001.
Commission Chairman C. Richard D’Amato stated that “This important study attempts to fill a severe
knowledge gap in our understanding of the nature and scope of U.S. production shifts to China and elsewhere.
The Commission has been on the front lines of urging Congress to enact corporate reporting requirements to
get this vital information, and this report further highlights the need for such measures.”
Among the key findings of the study are the following:
Production shifts out of the US particularly to Mexico, China, India, and other Asian countries have seen
a major increase in the last three years.
The pace of job shifts to China has grown considerably over the last three years. Over the same period,
job shifting to India has grown at a faster pace – albeit from a much lower base. During just the first three
months of this year, there were 58 such shifts to China documented across a range of industries as
compared to 25 shifts to China during a similar period in 2001.
The report projects that nearly 100,000 jobs will move from the U.S. to China as a result of production
shifts in 2004 based on extrapolating the data it collected during the limited period of the study.
The report’s media tracking methodology likely only “captures approximately two-thirds of production
shifts to Mexico and about a third of production estimates to other countries”. Accordingly, “these data
suggest that in 2004 as many as 406,000 jobs will be shifted from the US to other countries compared to
204,000 jobs in 2001,” of which nearly a quarter will go to China.
Production shifts, with consequent employment loss, have spread across the economy and now affect
sophisticated manufacturing industries, services, and information technology.
All regions of the country are impacted by these shifts, but the Mid-West has been especially hard hit.
Companies that are engaged in production shifts “tend to be large, publicly held, highly profitable, and
well established.”
The principal motive for production shifts to China is cost reduction rather than producing for the Chinese
market.
The number of jobs lost because of production shifts far exceeds that reported by the Bureau of Labor
Statistics in its report on mass layoffs due to overseas relocation.
Trade adjustment assistance to workers laid-off owing to overseas job relocation is poor, covering less
than one-third of the cases where production shifts occur.
In their report, the authors note that “three years after our original report to the USCC, there continues to be
no government mandated reporting system to track production shifts out of the US.” In its 2002 Annual
Report to Congress, the Commission recommended that Congress enact a corporate reporting system to
capture such data. The vital need for just such a system is highlighted by the results of the author’s work.
The full report is posted to the Commissions web site – www.uscc.gov. The Commission welcomes
comments by researchers and interested parties on the contents, methodology and findings of the Cornell-
UMass report.

[gold-n-rod]

I'm firmly in Formula Jr.'s corner.

I kind of wish I had read the original article on paper instead of on-line. It hurts to wipe one's ass with a 17" monitor!!!

:D

another Randy

[MissRepublican]

It is hardly "partisan hackery" to recognize that there is a clear and present danger to the United States, and that the historical records of the candidates make it absolutely clear which candidate has the credentials to protect this country from that danger.

One candidate sees the danger, reviews all available intelligence, and sets a course of action in the interests of preserving the safety of the American people--in their homes, in their cities, in their offices--in our homeland. That candidate has the courage, the character, the commitment, and the resolve to protect AMERICA.

The other candidate is unable or unwilling to recognize the threat; instead claiming that terrorism is a "nuisance."

The other candidate claims that the views of Janeane Garofalo, Whoopi Goldberg, Margaret Cho, et al, are the "heart and soul" of America.

The other candidate allows the likes of Michael Moore and Barbra Streisand to dictate the platform of his party.

The other candidate has become a follower of the Michael Moores of the world, who declare that there is no terrorist threat.

The other candidate betrayed his brothers in arms: first by lying about them to the press and to Congress, calling them all war criminals; next, by meeting and negotiating with representatives of the same communist foreign government whose armies those troops were battling -- with whom America was at war; and yet again by his actions on behalf of that same communist government in the early 1990s when he headed a Senate committee that was supposed to determine whatever became of American troops in the Vietnam War who are still listed as MIA. Under the leadership of that candidate, the panel determined that there was “no evidence” that any Americans left behind in Vietnam were still alive. Veterans groups and the VICE CHAIRMAN of that same committee disagreed with the claim. That candidate's motivation for such a declaration was made obvious when, shortly after the committee's findings were released, Hanoi awarded a lucrative contract to a Boston real estate firm run by the candidate's cousin.



Do I think that a vote for Candidate #2 is anti-American in light of his treasonous acts? Hell, yes!





But hey, he voted for the $87 billion to support our troops....before he voted against it.

[gcarter]

Darcy, you're my hero! (or is it heroine).
Digger is a lucky man!

[BUIZILLA]

Darcy, you ever considered taking Condy's place? ;)

JH

[Digger]

this is a great debate. When the country is so divided as it is now it is the responsibility of all to figure out where they stand, and also to understand the other side's view. Not having a position is inexcusable.

The facts are out there. It takes work to find them, understand them, and then extrapolate a personal position. They can't be found on solely the news networks or most newspapers. Separating fact from spin is a personal duty that we should all perform. To not do so is a copout. If you watch lots of news and read lots of newpapers unemotionally, you can usually get a hint of what the facts are, then it's your responsibility to do your own research. Matters of public record (and lots of facts) can normally be found on the internet. In the same manner you can find "old facts" which are collectively otherwise known as "history". You just have to sort through the chaff to get to them.

So much for the objective. Now to turn to the subjective.

We as Americans are free to think and act as we please. There are many responses to questions such as; what does it mean to be an American? What is my duty as an American? Are there basic tenets to which I should subscribe as an American? Furthermore, do I "owe" anything to this nation? Is there anything worth me offering personal sacrifice in support of this nation? I have definite answers to all those questions, particularly the last two. It should come as no surprise, as a 17 year Marine who has taken an oath to defend this nation, that my answer to each is an emphatic yes.

I believe America is a special place. I believe we are a benevolent nation that has helped the world through dark times and have helped to make the world a better place.

I believe a free, democratic society is the undisputable winner in the contest for "best society". I believe communism, socialism, and dictatorships, "religious" or "secular", are failed experiments.

I believe we as a free and powerful nation have a duty to help those in need and those who yearn for freedom.

Fact: There are many in this world who hate America and Americans at such a visceral level that they want to obliterate us from the face of the earth. They have struck with vicious lethality. They continue to plan our destruction.

Commentary: They will not stop until they are met with destructive force. I would rather fight them "there" than "here". I want a Commander in Chief who realizes, and more to the point truly believes, that the survival of America is at stake. I do not want someone who believes we need any other country or world body to nod in agreement before we act.

I tend to see issues as these in fairly black and white tones. When there are people in the world who want me dead because I live in America, I want a leader who knows what's at stake and has the guts to do what is right.

[harbormaster]

Ask Digger to tell you how the last Democratic President treated his Marine air crew versus the Republican President...

[MissRepublican]

I love that guy!!! See why we get along so well?

[Formula Jr]

Damn those pesky little do gooders over at Factcheck.
What a nuisance they are.

:D


http://www.factcheck.org/article285.html

The last bit about Kerry is a bit more complex.

http://www.factcheck.org/article155.html

Kerry really does have a major problem with clarity of speech.
Here he did something that was down right, well, "Republican",
but can't seem to explain it terms any normal person can understand. If I read it right, he voted for the 87 Billion, but with his ammendment to roll back the tax cuts attached, so that we could pay for it. That sounds like a pretty reasonable and fiscally responsible thing to do. That was defeated. And then he voted against the spending bill with out the tax cuts. You could look at this another way also: That 57 senators thought it was so important to retain the Tax Cut that they were not willing to fund the War/s. But I guess that would be a "wrong" way of looking at it. :bonk:

[MissRepublican]

"We have to get back to the place we were, where terrorists are not the focus of our lives, but they're a nuisance. . . As a former law-enforcement person, I know we're never going to end prostitution. We're never going to end illegal gambling. But we're going to reduce it, organized crime, to a level where it isn't on the rise. It isn't threatening people's lives every day, and fundamentally, it's something that you continue to fight, but it's not threatening the fabric of your life."


Terrorism, in any form, threatens the fabric of our lives. Ask anyone in Israel about the pesky nuisance value of Palestinian homicide bombers. Ask the Russians in Beslan how much of a nuisance the terror threat is. Ask the families of the 241 marines killed in Beirut as they slept if they think terrorism was at an acceptable nuisance level, that we should strive to "get back to."

Shall I go on? I pity anyone who truly believes that terrorism was ever at a tolerable level; or that the threat was merely a nuisance.

Further, I strenuously disagree with factcheck.org's assertion that Kerry's comment was "not so different" from Bush's statement.

The president stated the following: "I don't think you can win it [the war on terror], but I think you can create conditions so that the--those who use terror as a tool are less acceptable in parts of the world, let's put it that way."

The president stated that over time, we would be able to make terrorism less acceptable in the nations that harbor terrorists. The positions espoused by the two candidates are not at all similar in meaning.

[Islander]

My criteria is real simple...who's the guy that's going to piss off the French the most? He gets my vote.

[gcarter]

My criteria is real simple...who's the guy that's going to piss off the French the most? He gets my vote.
You know we LOVE the French around here! :smile: :eek: :rolleyes: :biggrin.:

[BUIZILLA]

My criteria is real simple...who's the guy that's going to piss off the French the most? He gets my vote.Manny, I luv ya man..
let's see...who would buy a French made vehicle? who would buy a french made car? hell, who would buy any engine the french made, or tried to make? boats from France? yeah right... :cistineb: maybe that's why they like bicycles so much? :puke:

:lobster:

[Islander]

Manny, I luv ya man..
let's see...who would buy a French made vehicle? who would buy a french made car? hell, who would buy any engine the french made, or tried to make? boats from France? yeah right... :cistineb: maybe that's why they like bicycles so much? :puke:

:lobster:

One of the candidates might. :rlol:

[BUIZILLA]

I was thinking more along the lines of Citroen :puke: , Peugot :bawling:, Renault :shocking:

[gcarter]

One of the candidates might. :rlol:
You mean the "French Looking Candidate"? :biggrin:

[Rootsy]

Think John Deere green :( :(

that's why ya buy red ;) or well errr used to... ummm yeah 30 years ago...

JR - what color does red and blue make?

[Formula Jr]

I saw the interview, on the bus - or maybe it was a train - with GW Bush when he made the "we can't win it" comment on TV. My impression was, that he was saying the Exact same thing as Kerry. A rare moment of truth on both sides. After all, its not like any thing we are going to do overseas is going to stop another Oklahoma City or Beltway Sniper.

Darcy, did you really intend to bring up the 241 Marines killed by suicide bomber in Beirut?
Our President, at that time, seemed to have sent a pretty clear signal to terrorists on that one.

[Formula Jr]

And They where:

In the early morning hours of 23 October 1983, a truck loaded with explosives crashed through the security perimeter of the United States Marine Corps Barracks in Beirut, Lebanon. In the explosion that followed, 241 U.S. Military personnel were killed and 80 seriously wounded.These young people, on a mission of peace in a land stricken by violence, were killed as they slept. Twenty-one (21) of the young American victims of this cowardly act were returned to the United States and were buried near one another in Section 59 of Arlington National Cemetery. Near their gravesites is planted a Cedar of Lebanon tree which commemorates their sacrifice.

They are remembered here in grateful appreciation of their sacrifice on behalf of freedom.

Nicholas Baker, Corporal, United States Marine Corps - 3 July 1962
Alvin Bemer, Sergeant, United States Maine Corps - 10 March 1954
David L. Daugherty, Corporal, United States Marine Corps - 28 October 1959
Roy L. Edwards, Sergeant, United States Marine Corps - 5 November 1941
Robert B. Greaser, Sergeant, United States Marine Corps - 29 July 1960
David M. Green, Corporal, United States Marine Corps - 16 July 1963
Maurice E. Hukill, First Lieutenant, United States Marine Corps - 26 November 1957
James Chandonnet Knipple, Corporal, United States Marine Corps- 9 November 1962
John W. Macroglou, Major, United States Marine Corps - 23 August 1949
David J. Nairn, First Lieutenant, United States Marine Corps - 17 June 1960
Thomas S. Perron, Corporal, United States Marine Corps - 5 October 1964
John Arthur Phillips, Jr., Sergeant, United States Marine Corps - 22 April 1960
Clyde Wayne Plymel, First Lieutenant, United States Marine Corps 8 December 1958
Patrick K. Prindeville, Sergeant, United States Marine Corps - 31 March 1960
Diomedes J. Quirante, HM-3, United States Navy - 6 September 1958
Charles J. Schnorf, First Lieutenant, United States Marine Corps - 28 July 1959
Thomas A. Shipp, Corporal, United States Marine Corps - 4 September 1955
Horace R. Stephens, Jr., Private First Class, United States Marine Corps - 23 July 1963
Eric Glenn Washington, Corporal, United States Marine Corps - 12 May 1955
Donald E. Wollett, First Lieutenant, United States Marine Corps - 23 February 1960
David Edward Worley, HM-3, United States Navy - 26 January 1958 http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/phmedal.gif

Rest In Peace - Forever Young

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/beirut1.jpg

[Formula Jr]

But then there is the (http://www.epud.net/%7Eowen/lambsofgod.doc)real list (http://www.epud.net/%7Eowen/lambsofgod.doc)

[MissRepublican]

FormulaJr:

Darcy, did you really intend to bring up the 241 Marines killed by suicide bomber in Beirut?

"Terrorism, in any form, threatens the fabric of our lives. Ask anyone in Israel about the pesky nuisance value of Palestinian homicide bombers. Ask the Russians in Beslan how much of a nuisance the terror threat is. Ask the families of the 241 marines killed in Beirut as they slept if they think terrorism was at an acceptable nuisance level, that we should strive to "get back to."

I made no mistake in referencing those marines killed by terrorists in a heinous and cowardly act of murder. My question is, do you, and does John Kerry, consider that to be "an acceptable level" or a "nuisance?" I, and every rational human being, and every marine I've ever met, do NOT view such acts as a "nuisance" or an "acceptable level."

[Scott Heidt]

I heard something very simplistic the other day, but it rang true!

We all love our parents. At least I hope everyone does.
When we were kids and got sick, our parents would give us medicine to make us better. Now as most can remember that medicine tasted pretty darn Bad! It was unpleasant, but only for a short while.

BUT! Our parents knew that even though the medicine was gonna have a bad taste , it was just the thing to make things better. And low and behold it did make us well and strong again.

Sometimes we have to take a course of action that is unpleasant, and hard, and that will test our fortitude, but it is the right thing to do. President Bush and our allies stood tall and took a stand against a RADICAL religious faction that wants nothing more than to see this country fall. This faction is worldwide and will not stop until they are crushed to a point where their will is broken.

This will not be done with words or diplomacy! It has to be done with force and all the unpleasant things that go with it.
(ie. the medicine metaphor).

The last thing I want to do is sound radical, but if these fanatics get a hold of a nuclear weapon, or God forbid a weaponized strain of Small Pox.

All the crap that we argue about (ie. taxes, social security, health care etc.) won't mean a dam thing. Life as we know it won't be the same! PERIOD!

I am sorry but I don't think that John Kerry will do what it takes to keep the pressure on these factions. I think that he would apease countries like China, France, Germany, Russia, etc. Not to mention, he would cow tow to the UN, which is probably the most morally corrupt organization that I can think of.

Just my thoughts! GO DARCY! You're the best!

[Formula Jr]

You are an Iraqi. A young man, and you're kind of happy that the US has come in and taken out the bastard that has made your life miserable for as long as you can remember. So you're at a check point, and some people take you out of your car at gun point. You don't understand why? These people take you to Abu Ghraib. You know bad things happen there. You are terrified. They then beat you, set dogs on you, starve you, sleep deprive you, make you eat ****, have sex with boys and laugh at you. They make you masterbate while they take pictures. They pile men up and write things on your ass, and take pictures. They make you act like one can never act and be a good muslim. Then they say, we have pictures of you. Look at this one. You have a dog collar on.

We will keep these pictures. We will not show them to anyone, IF you go out and find us the things we want to know. Do you understand Mohammad, or Ussama or what ever you freaken name is? We can distroy you in the eyes of your family and community with these pictures. Look at you, you coward, you freak. You need to find terrorists and bring them to us. Okay?

Do that, and we will not release the pictures.

.

[MissRepublican]

A nicely evocative post, playing to emotion.

Is it really fair to blame the entire US military for the actions of a few perverts? The members of the military I know were just as appalled and horrified by the behavior of those abusers at Abu Ghraib, if not more so, because they know the ramifications of such behavior.

Is it really appropriate to paint the entire populace of America with the brush of sexual perversion and brutality?

I don't think those at Abu Ghraib are representative of the United States any more than I think that al Zarqawi is representative of every Muslim. The immutable fact that al Zarqawi uses his religion as the impetus to encourage others to commit heinous acts such as those committed against Bigley, Johnson, Berg, and their unfortunate fellow hostages does NOT mean that every muslim has the desire to do the same.

[Scott Heidt]

What a waffle head! After Nov 2nd Kerry can get a job at the Waffle House!

Any man who blames a sitting president for the Hurricanes in Florida is an absolute idiot! PERIOD!

I can't believe the balls Kerry has to make such a blatent lie!

*********************************************

Florida Billboards Blame Bush for Hurricanes
By Susan Jones
CNSNews.com Morning Editor
October 26, 2004

(CNSNews.com) - Because President George W. Bush has "ignored the threat of global warming," Floridians can expect to be hit by increasingly destructive hurricanes, a new billboard campaign says.

The billboards, going up along Interstate 4 between Tampa and Orlando -- a week before the presidential election -- read, "Global warming equals worse hurricanes. George Bush just doesn't get it." The billboards show a photo of a hurricane swirling toward Florida.

The campaign is co-sponsored by Scientists and Engineers for Change and Environment2004. The NAACP National Voter Fund is also involved in the effort to blame Bush for ignoring global warming.

A press release announcing the billboard campaign quoted Michael Oppenheimer, a professor of geosciences and international affairs at Princeton: "The damage from this year's hurricanes should be taken as a sign of things to come," Oppenheimer said. "The warming ocean surface will supply more and more heat to future hurricanes, causing their winds to strengthen and their destructive power to increase disproportionately."

Aimee Christensen, executive director of Environment2004, said President Bush has "pursued an energy policy driven by industry, which puts polluters before people." She said the Florida billboard campaign is intended to "raise awareness" of how Bush administration policies are "harming the people of Florida."

Christensen said people in the hard-hit Tampa and Orlando areas "need to know that Bush is doing practically nothing to prevent hurricanes from getting worse in the future from global warming."

Gregory T. Moore, head of the NAACP's National Voter Fund, said his organization has launched an effort to inform minorities how they are "more heavily impacted by environmental threats," such as stronger hurricanes.

"Here in Florida," Moore added in a non sequitur, "there are still 90,000 people homeless because of the hurricanes, and they should have the right to vote."

Not all scientists subscribe to theories that global warming is caused by man -- much less the supposed link between global warming and stronger hurricanes. Many scientists say hurricane activity is cyclical; and no one's sure what, if any, impact global warming will have on the frequency and intensity of storms.

Scientists and Engineers for Change describes itself as a "political committee that believes science and technology are crucial building blocks for American prosperity." It opposes Bush administration policies.

Environment2004 also describes itself as "a political organization dedicated to electing leaders who understand the importance of environmental protection." The group also is anti-Bush.