A good reason to use your safety lanyards

[Greg K]

This happened this past weekend on Lake Hartwell. 42' Fountain in the trees after the occupants were thrown out.
Occupants appear from other reports to be ok.

[Last Tango]

So then it is true! Fountains DO grow on trees!

[Greg K]

Where's a tree hugger when ya need one.
By someone else.." looks like a beak boat became a woodpecker.."

[McGary911]

Ouch. In that first shot, it looks like he's trimmed out just a bit too much ;)

My kill switch wasnt hooked up when i got my boat, but it will be before it gets wet this year for sure.

[Last Tango]

So this brings up an old question I have had in the back of my mind. Why do we not wear lap belts when hauling butt in rough water in our boats? Is there some specific technical or Coast Guard Safety reason we should NOT wear lap belts? I keep looking at wanting to put some cool sports car racing seats in my C18. And it would include lap belts and shoulder harnesses in the front, and lap belts in the back for those rough cruising days. Very little for back seaters to hold onto in rough water. I ALWAYS wear my lanyard. I have a cool little red sponge-covered wrist thing like folks use for keys at work. It is clipped to the end of my lanyard. Just slides over my hand and onto my wrist. You don't stand up when you run a Classic, so belts and seats seem like a good idea. More comfortable on your lower back at the end of the day and the next morning.
What am I missing here?

[BUIZILLA]

OMG... look how FAR that tree is embedded into that hull !!

J :puke:

[boxy]

OMG... look how FAR that tree is embedded into that hull !!

J :puke:

Jim what shocked me was how small of a tree split the hull in half, it can't be anymore than a foot thick....

[Woodsy]

Tango...

You WANT to be ejected from your boat if something should go drastically wrong... think of the possible scenarios while you have a lap belt on... boat flips: can't get belt undone quick enough, (I won't go into what would happen if you flipped and what the tons of water pressure would do when your chest impacted the water) or immenent collision with another boat or object: can't get belt undone quick enough to jump, etc etc.. the end result of just about any bad scenario if you are strapped in is that the possibility of drowning increases exponentially! There aren't any seatbelts in boats for a reason....

Woodsy Von Outboard

[Walt. H.]

Wow Fountains do seem to attract rock's and now tree's.

see photo below.

Sorry, I can't seem to get the picture to up load I had in mind.

W.H

[ChromeGorilla]

As far as the lap belt idea, I wouldn't. For the last year my job in the military has been driving a 33' twin turbo diesel Zodiac with hamlton jet drives everyday. We have shock absorbing seats and sometimes that still isn't enough when we're haulin butt to intercept a vessel. (4-10 foot swells)....almost hittin the overhead. So I was talking with the Coasties I work with and they recommend no to the seat belt idea. For the same reasons as others have posted. Would you really want to be strapped into a sinking vessel? :flag-navy .....unless a submarine of course.. :flag-navy

[MOP]

I know I may some catch flak over this, but I feel performance boats and jet skiers should have to prove their experiance level before being able to "register" the boats. Any idiot with deep pockets can "Buy & Die". Damn few guys who have been playing with this stuff for a few years would end up with this type of thing happening.

Phil

[Last Tango]

I have heard all these same excuses and arguments before about WANTING to be ejected from the boat. Problem is once you are ejected from the boat you are no longer with the boat. The folks in the above boat should have had a lanyard. No question. But backseaters and co-pilots can be ejected far quicker than the driver since the driver is already holding onto the steering wheel and has a moment to anticipate the inevitable because he already realizes the boat is out of his control. Passengers do not get that moment of anticipation to prepare. They just get tossed around. Even when the boat is completely under control. A bad hit on a wake or wave can flip passengers out. The boat is in no danger of flipping over or nosing in. It just launches those not tied down to something. How many tossed folks have survived the throw better than sticking with the boat? What percentage of flying boats ENTER the water UPSIDE DOWN? A very high percentage flip or turn over AFTER the driver is gone and there is no body left to control the boat. Sounds like skill and headwork. The BoneFish Grille owner might have been better off to have been tied down. If you are driving drunk and stupid, no seat belts are gonna help. Being thrown didn't help them either.
Further, most of my passengers reach their discomfort level long before their driver. Seat belts might make them more comfortable on a bumpy ride.
I am in no way advocating seatbelts as a law or a rule or anything. I am suggesting that high performance boating at the 6-7 tenths level might be more enjoyable for passengers if they were not struggling to find something to brace themselves at the bigger bumps. And if you are boating beyond that level with passengers, then be prepared for the worst consequences.

[gcarter]

A little bit different...but does anyone remember the three ball players who hit a dock at full speed at twilight after consuming a lot of what I think you call "boat sodas"?
The accident removed the craniums of two of the occupants, and severely wounded the other. I don't think belts would have made any difference.
It was just stupid judgement, low light and enebriated.
Anyway, that accident occured here in Lake County, FL about 25 miles South of my office.

George

[Fish boy]

So this brings up an old question I have had in the back of my mind. Why do we not wear lap belts when hauling butt in rough water in our boats?

I have written and re-written an answer to why this is such a horrible idea 4 times, but after I read it, I deleted it so as not to start a holy-war here. Suffice it to say, YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE STUCK IN YOUR BOAT WHEN A CATASTROPHIC EVENT HAPPENS. I am not referring to race boats that are designed/built with oxygen, capsules,...etc, to keep the drive inside when he/she crashes.

If anyone would like details on the number of dead bodies I have seen from boating accidents( iahve seen several), and how they would have been different had they not been trapped in the boat when an acident occurs, please PM me.


The BoneFish Grille owner might have been better off to have been tied down. If you are driving drunk and stupid, no seat belts are gonna help. Being thrown didn't help them either.

Tango, the above admonishion against seat belts ABSOLUTELY INCLUDES MY FRIEND CHRIS PARKER, the owner of the bonefish grille, who died in a boating accident 3 months ago. Additionally, do you have the first idea what happened in that accident? Let me bring you a little bit up to speed- toxicology under .08 which is fla's legal limit- FDLE says NOT DRUNK!; two were thrown from the boat and lived, one, the driver, pinned in a bolster behind a steering wheel died of blunt trauma to head and pelvis. I am sure you have at least looked in a high performance boat before and seen how the bolster holds you, where the sterring wheel is in relation to the pelvis, and if not thrown when an impact occurs, can at least picture a persons head going forward and hitting the dash during the instant deceleration. Would this have occured if he were ejected instead and hit water? Why don't you ask the two girls who were thrown and lived?

[Last Tango]

Fish Boy. He wasn't strapped in to begin with. This bears no relationship to my discussion. He was NOT killed due to being strapped in. If he had been strapped in he might NOT have hit the dash in the first place. But he was NOT ejected either. He wasn't ejected because he was trapped between the steering wheel and the dash in some fashion, or he chose to hang on to the boat hoping to try to recover it.
Seat bolsters on current show/go boats aren't really designed to be safe. They are primarily designed to look cool and be somewhat comfortable. They are NOT safety devices. In my Classic 18, I would suffer the same fate as your friend if I nosed it in. THIS is my point. The driver of a classic has his legs UNDER the dash. One would have to be severed at the waist in order to be ejected completely from the drivers seat.
Most go-fast boats offer the opportunity to stand as a way of using your knees as shock absorbers. Why? Bad seats? Bad view? Modern offshore RACE boats all have REAL seats for the crew. And they DO strap in. And they DON'T stand up, anymore. They all sit down in proper high performance seats.
Alcohol, no alcohol. Irrelevent. Too fast for conditions? Relevent.

[DONZI]

Even coasties fall out sometimes ! :rolleyes:
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2002/MAR0205.htm

[Ranman]

Mark,

Personally, I agree with the no-seatbelt school of thought, at least in our application that is. I think that in the case of an 18 Classic driver (and 22 Classic drivers) there are a few things to consider. Number one, the pilot should always wear the safety lanyard. I try to wear mine, and I 'm better at wearing it in "bigger" water, but I'm not at 100% yet. (It took me a long time to be a 100% seat belt wearer in the car too, but I'm working on it.)

Number two, Anyone who travels over 50MPH or thereabouts in one of these boats is an idiot to not be wearing a life vest, peroid. Do I wear one, no. Am I an idiot, absolutly.

We all know that Lifelines are what you want and in my opinion, a Lifeline with the flak material is the best money can buy. As soon as I can reasonably afford Lifelines for me AND my passengers, I will buy them. We are taliking at least $1200 worth of vests though so it's tough to be incented to buy.

Lastly, the list of people who would rather not ride in my 18 is growing. The reason as you mentioned; they're not comfortable and frankly they're not held in well. It may be a good idea to install some grab handles for the back seat passengers to at least give them something to hold on to. Well placed grab handles will increase passenger comfort but won't hold the passenger in permanently. Should something drastic happen, they'll lose their grip and leave the boat. Hopefully at this point the Lifeline will take over.

I do not practice this theory today, but it's the direction I'm heading. Until I get there I'm trying to make a conscious effort to not drive so damn fast with passengers aboard.

I wonder if there's a legal ramification regarding the following scenario: Say I buy 2 Lifeline vests, one for me and one for DJ. We go out to the lake and take 2 friends. Something goes wrong and the two friends are hurt in some way. Could they argue that I knew the boat was dangerous and therefore I chose to protect myself with a Lifeline vest? Could they agrue I was also negligent by not providing adequate protection for my passengers? What if I provide an inferior vest to the passengers? I just can't see myself strapping on a Lifeline and not having something of the same quality to give the passengers.

[tamburello]

I also agree with the no seatbelt school of thought. Being thrown clear in the event of a catastrophic crash seems preferable to being imobilized in a boat that might've come to rest upside down.

Ironically, despite my siding with the no seatbelt group I have a seatbelt mounted to the driver's seat in my 18. I have a damaged spinal cord resulting from an accident 12 years ago. As a result of my injury I have very weak legs and some weakness in my wrist and hands. When I first rigged my boat up so that I could drive I found that I was having a hard time bracing myself sufficiently in my seat. The boat would hit a wake and I'd get bounced around and slide out of the seat. My lack of seating stability while underway led me to deem that a method of holding me in place was necessary to avoid the dangerous possibility of me falling out of the seat and losing control of the boat.

A seatbelt seemed to be the best solution to my quandary, but I was wary of being strapped into a vehicle that can sink or flip over. I chose to use a four point harness with a quick release. I can pop the belt off in a split second and I always wear my lifeline jacket or my auto-inflating sospenders PFD. Is it the best solution for my situation, well that's debatable but it works well and seems to be reasonably safe.

Hopefully, none of us end up with a mess like that Fountain.

- Jeff

[Last Tango]

Ranman,
As usual you and I are running very similar thoughts. I already have two LifeLine Vests and I try to wear one every time I get in the boat. For the backseaters I have an assortment of vests including an orange SOSpenders, a couple sizes of standard orange PFD's and some kids sizes and some jet ski vests of various sizes. You just never know who is going to want a ride, and what will fit and be comfortable and safe. All those extra vests pretty well fill the tunnel.
I am seriously considering another life vest, the one that is similar to the LifeLine vest but also has the pockets with all the Coast Guard required safety gear.
Problem still arises that if I am the one with the gear vest, two others wear the LifeLines, one gets the SOSpenders, then the 5th person gets something less showey and less comfortable and, in an accident, may want to sue because equal safety equipment was not provided to all passengers. Then there is the issue of having the right SIZE for everybody.
I also find that I'm getting fewer backseater volunteers. Same problem. Not comfortable back there at high speed.
The newer Classics have a grab rail in the back near the floor. I was thinking of adding some sort to SS hand rails in the back particularly between the seating "areas". Problem is then getting under the rear cushion to the storage area. And you have to define the width as either tight for 3 or limited to no more than 4 total.
Seat belts are not my favorite thought. Cushions that actually hold you in and provide a grab handle of some sort are my favorite idea. A pair of race seats in the front would also be more comfortable and more supportive. Just a little "non-Classic" looking, unfortunately.
Tamburello,
Your set up is EXACTLY what I had in mind, right down to the style of seat and the 4-point belts. What method did you use to mount the seat? Are the belts through-bolted and backed below the deck?

[Ranman]

I'm trying to come up with a slick handle setup for the rear seat passengers that is both attractive and effective for all aboard. I'll share my thoughts of the project in hopes of getting some opinions.

First, I plan to mount one grab handle (see red grab handle link) on each of thegunnels in the rear of the boat similar to what's pictured. That covers the left hand of the port passenger and the right hand of the starboard passenger.

Next, I'm thinking of installing two pop up button cleats (pic 1) in the vertical area between the floor and rear seat cushion. I will space them so they will be on either side of a passenger sitting in the middle. I've seen a long grab bar moiunted down there, but my big concern is getting my floor cooler open. It's hard enough to weasel open as it is. Putting a big bar that sticks out might make it impossible to open. With the button cleats, I can open and close them as needed so they offer little intrusion. Also the caps are offered red anodized to match the scheme of the boat.

Now, your asking "why would you mount button cleats there?" What I'm thinking is this: I would assemble 4 handles using the stainless snaps (bottom right of pic 2). I havent found a suitable handle yet so if you have any suggestions, please, I'm open. Anyway. You would be able to clip the handle to the button cleat. If you have 2 back seat passengers clip one handle to each cleat and use the gunnel handles. If you have 3 back seat passengers, clip 2 handles to each cleat and the center passenger will be covered by holding one handle in each hand. If the back seat is empty, unclip the handles, stow them and push in the cleats for that clean look.

If anyone has any other suggestions on how this can be accomplished, by all means, let me know.

[tamburello]

Cool idea Randy! Looks like you may have the answer to keeping rear seat passengers happy.

Mark-

The MOMO seat comes with drilled and tapped holes on the sides of the seat base, two per side. Along with the seat I purchased two mounting brackets. The mounting brackets have a 90 degree bend. On one face of the bracket there are a number of holes drilled which match up with the holes in the side of the seat. There are a number of different vertical holes allowing the seat height to be adjusted in front and back. On the other face of the mounting bracket are holes to mount it on the floor.

Floor mounting is not possible due to the molded in seat pedestals in the cockpit and I wanted to retain forward and rearward adjustability with a seat slider. I unbolted the seat slider from the base of the stock bucket and measured the bolt hole pattern. Then I measured the distance between the seat brackets and the mounting holes on them. With measurements in hand I went to the local sheet metal shop and had them cut a rectangular piece of 1/4 inch aluminum plate and drill the holes to mount the seat brackets and the slider to.

- Jeff

[David O]

If you are not wearing your safety lanyard then by all means, strap your ass in your boat.
Do it for me and the others out on the water.
The last thing we need along with all the other idiots is your high-speed boat running circles around you doing it’s best to run your ass and mine over.
I know of a few people that are lucky to even be here today from being run over by their own boat.
If you are not wearing your kill switch lanyard and leave your boat unexpectedly it will typically come back looking for you.

[Fish boy]

I have been following this thread with some interest now and read a variety of opinions and even a couple of completely asinine comments. With the asinine, I just considered the source. With the Opinions, I love being a part of a forum with so much knowledge and experience that one can always seem to find information they are seeking here. Varying opinions and the ability to openly express yourself is one of the things that makes this board great. Of course, there is sometimes a double edge to this wonderful repositiory of boating knowledge we have here- bad information.

My concern in this particular instance is that often times people will find this site or come to this site seeking answers. I would hate to see someone end up hurt or dead because they read a well meaning opinion and followed it with regards to strapping yourself into a boat.

Some of the pluses from this thread:
1) Safety lanyards are a must. They are are easy to install if you do not have one, and once cliped, you dont even know it is there. Here is a link to a $14.00 one from west marine, but I think even Walmart carries them. kill switch (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=14831)

2) Handles are a great idea to give the passengers something to hold onto.

3) anyone who drives a high perforomance boat without a life jacket is crazy. I know they are inconvenient, but so is being dead. The two gold standard vests are Lifeline and Security. here are the links: Lifeline (http://www.lifelinejackets.com/catalog_racingaccessories.html) , Security (http://www.securityrace.com/lifejacket.htm) Each are pretty pricey, but occasionally used ones come up on ebay and some other forums. Bassworld has a less expensive model that has straps for your legs that can be tucked into the vest when not needed. bassworld vest (http://www.basspro-shops.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTextId=16159&hvarTarget=search) One additional note on vests, and I think ranman touched on it above, is that some of the more expensive ones have kevlar inserts. This came about after years of racing and drivers suffering internal injuries when impacting the water or foreign objects at over 100mph. If you are going to spend the money to get a good vest, make sure you add this. Finally, the leg straps are there to keep the vest from being ripped up over your head when impacting the water. A safety vest that does not have these is really missing out on an important part. If you don't have the $$$ to spend a few thousand dollars (like me) outfitting your boat with lifeline or security vests, then get something- it is better than nothing from a safety and legal perspective.

Now for the seatbelt issue:
Seatbelts in a boat are a bad idea- race setups excluded (capsule, oxygen tank, 5 point harness...). In the spirit of debate, each of us could come up with one scenario that would make them a good idea, but that would exclude the 1000's of others that have already proven that it is a bad/deadly idea. This is my opinion, and please feel free to formulate your own on this topic. While coming up with your own consider this:

Is boating pretty heavily regulated in terms of speed limits, mandatory safety gear (lifejackets, throw cushines, flares..),...etc? Does anyone think that if seatbelts were a good idea that they would not be legislatively mandated? Do you think you could possibly get insurance for your boat without seatbelts if they helped save lives? With the litigious nature of our country, would it be possibly under past and current product liability laws to even build a performance boat without seatbelts? These are of course rhetorical question as the answer to each is obviously (i hope it is obvious) NO.

Thanks for reading and I hope this helps,

Fish

[Fish boy]

Holy frijoles, I had no idea my post was as long as it is until I posted it. Doh! Here is a summary:

*Handles are a good idea.
*Lanyards are a must (link provided above incase you want to buy one)
*jackets are a needed, with additional info. (links to three different models provided)
*seatbelts are a proven bad idea.

Feel free to read the post above for more detail on each.

Fish

[BUIZILLA]

GOOD info. Fish Boy.

thanx, JH :yes:

[David O]

Fish boy is right on, use a lanyard.

The way I see it in order of importance is:

1. Lanyard is a must at all times when engine is running and not tied to the dock.
2. Life jackets, personal choice.
3. Drive within your ability for the conditions and equipment on the boat, and for the safety of your passengers.

If you won’t or can’t do the above, then by all means strap yourself to the driver’s seat so as to protect me and others from you.

A running loose boat without a driver is a deadly missile.
If you leave the drivers seat, kill the boat.

I personally don’t care if you strap in or not as I don’t care if you wear a life preserver or not, this is America it is your choice, you make your own decisions but I will ask and recommend for my safety, your passengers safety and all others on the water that you do use a lanyard when driving the boat.

[mattyboy]

great thread,

one thing to keep in mind when you use a lanyard keep a spare where your co pilot knows where it is just incase you go out of the boat so someone left in the boat can restart it and pick you up.
I did learn this weekend that the omc ob lanyards are designed just to turn the key off, they are not necessary to start the boat! don't ask how I learned this :rolleyes:

Matty

[roadtrip se]

What happens to you when your rib cage hits the steering wheel, windshield, or something else hard in an unplanned event? I look at that kevlar as flak jacket protection for IN and outside the boat.

Todd
'Wearer of lifeline jackets for past ten years, thank God I haven't needed them..."