The Ultimate 22 Classic

[rayjay]

Okay guys, after looking for the right boat for a few years and missing out on some very desirable Donzi’s including a BBC X-18 and a bunch of Criterions I am finally acquiring a 22 Classic as a basis for building something to become my boat. I have wanted a Donzi since I saw my first Sweet 16 on Barnegat Bay in the late 60’s (which was probably BigG’s!) while on a shakedown run in an SS class ski boat we were racing in APBA.

Now comes the fun part. I’m asking for all you knowledgeable mechanics and tinkerers out there to design and build the ultimate Classic 22 in your mind, and then let me know your ideas. My project boat already has a carbed 502 and a Bravo to start with. The 502 seems to be one of the truck retrofit engines and not a Marine unit which means I will be going into it to change some things around. I am an inveterate tinkerer and modifier so I would probably be tearing it apart anyway. I had access to full machine shops and dynoes as well as the friends to do something when my level of skill was exceeded. I recently relocated and now in live in Clinton, Connecticut within walking distance of the Long Island Sound, so that is where I will be doing my boating. The relocation means I will just have to drive two hours back to my friends and I will locate new places in Eastern CT. Some of my friends moved to California years ago so I am used to getting things moved around so the right person can modify something for me.

Boating on the salty Sound means I will be putting in a closed cooling system. I already have an Arizona Speed and Marine BBC FI setup left over from a Bank’s turboed 454 boat engine project that someone “had to have” before I could even get it finished and into a boat. Also, I love speed, or rather “pace with grace” which is why I soon realized a 22 Donzi Criterion or Classic would be the perfect boat for me to use on the Sound. Like my XJ-S, they look good and can cover ground very quickly when you want them to.

Okay, so now put your thinking caps on and give me some good suggestions.

rayjay

[Rootsy]

soooo how much money do you want to spend?

[rayjay]

Fair question. I'm looking for ideas and just for ideas the sky is the limit. Yes, price or cost will ultimately be a concern as I am not independently wealthy, but just use your conscience in getting bang for the buck. Also, something that is expensive for you to do may be inexpensive for me to do, and conversely something that is inexpensive for you to do may be expensive for me. For example I know I can build my own engine including porting the heads and modifying the manifolds but anything that takes a real base of knowledge on the out drive will have to go out to be done. You may be able to modify an out drive on your own but have to send your heads out for work. I worked for Silverton Boats years ago so I have a reasonable amount of knowledge about working with fiberglass but someone would have to design any hull changes if that is what I decide to do. I’ve built and raced cars, boats, and motorcycles and learned my mechanical limitations years ago. Where I am lucky is that I have friends who continue to build and modify performance / race cars and motorcycles for a living. They have always been there to pick up where my expertise trails off. So don’t be afraid to come up with anything. I’m looking for what works not what just costs a lot or looks trick.

rayjay

[Ranman]

Take one Donzi 22 Classic, add a Mercury fuel injected 1075SCi, hang an Arneson ASD-6 off the back and see how long you can cheat death. :biggrin: :biggrin:

[rayjay]

Whoa!! I am not trying to be facetious or start a flame war. I am trying to use to collective knowledge of this group to build the best running Classic 22 I can. If I just wanted to cheat death for as long as I could I would purchase something like the pickle fork Sanger the turbo 454 I built went into. I’ve driven it to just under 120 and the owner has had it to well into the 130’s. I’m pretty sure it has scared him as he stopped talking about doing anymore to the engine even though there is a lot more that can be done.

The plan I have for the engine is to stroke it to 540 or 557. I haven’t found the right pistons for a really long rod 540 built from a standard deck Gen VI block. I can build a 557 with just a tad longer stroked crank than the 540 with the same rods. With slightly dished JE’s, slightly longer 6.385 rods, and big chambered heads the static compression will be between 8.5 and 8.7 which should work perfect with a centrifugal blower like a Procharger set at 5 – 8 lbs boost. I would really like more dwell time at TDC, but long rod combinations that do not put the rings too close to the crown of the piston or the piston pin are not available for the standard deck 502 block. I’ve even considered just adding long rods to the standard 4” crank, but I haven’t found that available either for the standard 9.8” high block. If I had a 10.2” block it would be much easier. I’ll have to pick the right cam to get it working perfectly and the programable management system I have to work with the AS&M FI will help. I’ll have to work on heads and decide whether to go with AL or FE. 502’s have been known to have head gasket problems as the surface between the bores gets pretty narrow, something that could be exacerbated by running AL heads with boost. The Gen VI block has siamesed bores and after market AL heads have thicker decks so possibly I could run AL heads, which should run cooler than FE heads. Plus I will use an intercooler, all of which should help with detonation and give a good running (relatively) long-lived engine. This is real and doable by me, of course with the help of some of my friends. And maybe not for this year, but certainly for next year.

Now where I really need help is with the drive and the rest of the running gear, unless someone out there sees a problem with an engine like this. (Hey BigG, you’re living with something like this. What do you think?) Do I look for an Arneson, an Imco, B-Max, or one of the Bravo variations? Or even just have the standard Bravo beefed up. What gear ratio and prop, what type of planes and steering, etc. This is where I hope this group’s collective knowledge can help me.

rayjay

[Ranman]

Hey rayjay,

I don't think you were being fecetious, I was just trying my hand at desktop humor. :biggrin: :biggrin: I was hoping the smilies would show I was poking fun.

Actually, though, to me the 1075 Arneson 22 IS the Ultimate. That would be the end all be all Donzi. A Classic with that setup would run well over 100MPH and have a coolness factor of twenty.

Sorry that I'm not adding too very much to your topic. I was just trying to have fun with ya. Good luck with your project.

[Digger]

Rayjay I would suggest going Arneson. sounds like you are talking some real horsepower here, depending on what you end up with a Bravo might do or might not. An arneson will allow you to pretty much exclude the drive as a limiting feature where power is concerned. I would talk with GEOO if I were you to get his advice on surface piercers.

If you go with an outdrive then dual ram hydraulics would look nice on top of being functional, as would k-planes. I would pick a thru hull exhaust with no baffle and captains call/silent choice to divert when desired/necessary. Not going to suggest a color, but whatever I picked I would choose Awlgrip for the finish. Color/graphics is such an individual choice no two people are going to agree, however my opinion is that "less is more" when it comes to graphics. Especially on a classic. The lines of the boat are so good and clean to begin with that any graphics breaks that up.

somewhere around 600 hp would be plenty for me. Mine would be white with red boot stripe/accents. grab rails for each passenger seat. a dash milled out like Scott Pearson's. I would have McLeod build custom seats with adjustable air bladders for a perfect tight fit. I would figure out a way to mount a custom boarding ladder on the transom so that it retracts under the engine hatch. A kick ass stereo. An american flag with OEM Donzi logo on her topsides aft. smoked windshield in a stainless frame. Document it with the USCG so I wouldn't have to put numbers on it. A Rolls or Aluminum Slide-On (Owens and Sons) bunk trailer with torsion suspension, surge brake. ..that would about do it for me :)
good luck with the project

[MOP]

Setting up for Arneson is involved and costly, ask me I got pretty well along that road and may still fool with it next year having all the parts in the barn. Geo is the master and extremely helpful, he I think will hit 120 this year with his 18. What about some of the high perf Merc drives, I have been reading up on them they are handling major ponies and are extremely hydrodynamic. I would forget the Bravo even beefed I don't think they stack up to big ponies as well as the big Merc racing drives.

MOP

[mattyboy]

my idea of ideal 22 would have a couple of donzi girls suntanning, a cooler full of cold ones ,some tunes, soem sun, and $#!+ it don't have to leave the dock


Hey BUD let's party


spicolli

[Rootsy]

if i was to build a 22 my way on my budget... well hmmm... yes you can make BIG power with a bbc with big cubes... for some big coin... i'd opt for a BIGSBC with a screw compressor, EFI and full length tubular headers... capable of running into the 700+ hp range pretty easily and saving you a little weight.. tie that to an arneson... and the rest of it i leave stock appearance... cept well sharpening some strakes, chines and transom... and definitely DUAL ram hydraulic steering...

[Pismo]

If you are going with an Arneson, you need to start with a BlackHawk model 22 Classic which has a differnt hull design with more rocker and a remounted fuel tank needed for surface drives.

Cheers
SL

[rayjay]

Hey Ranman, Sorry for not understanding the smiles. After getting off here I went to my eMail and found a copy of your reply with "BIG GRIN BIG GRIN" instead of the smiley faces. Then I caught your humor.

An Arneson is starting to sound good, and hits my sense of being different and doing it my way right on the mark. I'll have to talk to GEOO and CDMA to learn from their experiences. I was planning to check the hull for hook and/or rocker, and then make any adjustments that will make it work better.

Rootsy, I learned a long time ago "there is no replacement for displacement". I have a supercharged SBC engine for my Caballero (El Camino with lock washers). I had never built an engine with a blower so I built this one to learn on. It makes good power but still needs some detailing to get it running to my satisfaction. My friends kept telling me to just drop a mild big block in it and I would be "happier than a pig in sh!t". After I was committed to the SBC because I had acquired all the parts and was starting to modify and assemble them I got to see a 632 run on a dyno. It was being assembled and dialed in for some tractor pulling class that limited the induction to one four barrel (don't ask me, I am not into tractor pulling). But I do know that tractor pulling engines have to be able to run at pretty low rpm's to be able to get the last few feet out of a pull. Okay, I'm a metal head and I couldn't resist watching powerful engines work and I've been taken to a few tractor pulls... Well the 632 made more torque at 1500 rpm than some car engines make at full tilt. It also made close to 850 hp and close to 800 lb/ft before it was fully dialed in. I'm sure it will make over 900 by the time they are through. With a single four barrel and no blower, fi, or electronics it would make a great car or boat engine. Plus with AL heads it weighed just a few pounds more as my SBC with the blower and the intercooler added. Cost wise, my SBC, a bored 400 with 6" rods for 406, cost just a bit less but only because I started with a stock $250 Chevy 400 engine that I already had and bartered and traded for the supercharger and FI intake. If you are going to build a big small block you are going to need an after market block and after market SB's and BB's are not that different in price, nor are the good cranks, rods, and pistons. And by the time you add a blower and intercooler to a SB the cost will go up significantly and the weight will be close to the BB. I felt the SBC would be an easier fit in my Caballero because of the width on the engine, which it was as mine is an '86 and those years never came with a BB. But by the time I get the blower and the intercooler in there all the space will be filled. Of course the "WOW" factor for the supercharger and Lingenfelter Super Ram will be much greater than a simple BB with a carb, but only to most people...

rayjay