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Rootsy
03-09-2004, 07:04 PM
My neighbor and I are looking to put breakwall in to stop the erosion on our shoreline. Currently there's guard railing holding the waves off of the shore but the waves and muskrat get behind it and erode it out beneath the grass... My neighbor is one of the clueless types and has gotten a few quotes but i figured i'd see if anyone had any good information on what would be fair pricing, permit costs, etc. Can anyone recommend a decent company in the southern Michigan area? This is in Southern Michigan on an inland lake. The style we are looking at is the interlocking driven plate with a cap over the top. Right now... for 60 feet of frontage the cheapest quotation is 3200 bucks for each 60 feet + tax + permit...

Thanks

Root

boxy
03-09-2004, 07:15 PM
Root, I have no idea how pricing compares S MI to here, but I do know whether or not the work can be done from the shore vs from a barge greatly affects the price here.

Rootsy
03-09-2004, 07:20 PM
from the shore... yard is flat at the lake... no trees in the way... my previous neighbor on the right had it done about 7 years ago... but they've since sold...

Brad Lyon
03-09-2004, 09:09 PM
Jamie,

Up on the Titty river there are two companies that put in steel seawalls and they charge $55 to $60 per foot + tax + permit, so your estimate is not to far off. I elected to go with a rock seawall and I got a great deal at $40 per foot. The guy did a really nice job, he brought in some huge bolders and it looks real nice.

Brad

Craig
03-10-2004, 02:31 PM
Suggest large "imbricated" rip rap (angular stackable rock). $40-$60 / ton "INSTALLED" (at least in Western Maryland). If done carefully, looks nice and should last and last and last ....

How High does the wall need to be?

Rootsy
03-10-2004, 02:52 PM
12 inches from surface of water to the yard is the elevation change.. or dropoff... actually at high water levels it's more like 4 inches

Forrest
03-10-2004, 03:22 PM
One thing that you need to ask your contractor when considering an aluminum or vinyl seawall, is how deep do they intend to drive the panels. Depending on the type of soil (i.e. mud vs. sand or rock) type you may need to have them driven as much as 15-feet into the ground to prevent premature seawall failure and upland erosion. If you don't ask, some contractors will drive the panels a few feet into the ground in order to quote a low price, tie it back (required), cap it, and be done with it. Also, a nice formed concrete seawall cap at least 12-inches wide by 12-inches deep will make it stronger and look great too. This may be an overkill in your case since I'm speaking from experience in Florida and East Coast tidal salt-water where most areas have a soft mud and or sand bottom.

cougar
03-10-2004, 08:21 PM
Give me a call I live in Fenton and we are a distributor and instalation contractor. The price you got sound's like a fair price BUT what length panel's were you qouted ? What is the thickness of the material ? What are they using for deadmen and how many. We cary Northstar Vinyl, it's the DONZI of sea wall material's. This may be a project you could do your self over a coulple of weekend's with a lith help. Call Me 810-714-0194 Jeff

Rootsy
03-10-2004, 10:41 PM
Thanks Cougar,

i'll give you a call sometime this weke or next when i get a free moment at work. what we've been looking at is steel seawall, the stuff you see on piers, etc etc... driven in and capped with steel. i could do this myself, i'm not afraid of that.. i have a backhoe and access to a bobcat, a torch and a welder and a vocabulary like a sailor when really frustrated... but it's easier to just let someone professional do it... the neighbor who had it done on my right side had a rough time. my lake is originally a cement quarry and you end up running into shale and rock at about 5 feet... whomever was installing it was swearing up a storm...

Craig
03-11-2004, 08:58 AM
Rootsy - It sounds to me like you don't need the kind of wall you're considering. If you're on an inland lake, and you only get a water level fluctuation of 4" to 12", it seems you could easily get by with (what we call) "imbricated" rip rap.

I've done a fair bit of stream restoration with my work and we've had good success with it.

Basically I guess it comes down to whether you'd be satisfied with the look of it. It actually ends up looking very natural (Duh, it's rock placed along a shoreline). BUT, it's not just randomly placed. It's nice (sometimes even hand selected at a quarry) angular rock of specified dimensions placed on grade (in this case some level point relative to expected water levels) to act as protection from wave action or high flow velocity flows.

THE BIG PLUS IS IT WILL BE CHEAPER AND PROBABLY BETTER IN THE LONG RUN.

I hesitate to share the pics I've included below because I couldn't quickly find pics of some nice finished projects, but to get some idea I included them.

One (the pipe headwall) is just to show what I mean by imbricated rock. The rock on this job was a little on the extra large size.

Another, installed on an angled grade in a channel (building a rock structure called a Cross Vane - again, different purpose than yours). Don't go by this for looks! It's all muddy while under construction.

Finally, some diagrams of installation. These show the rock as being a bit too round. As stated above, they need to be specified as very angular, blocky material.

PRICE: We figure, the rock to be $40.00 to $60.00 per ton installed. Let's say $40.00 here, as you may even get someone to do it cheaper. For the amount it sounds like you need (probably just one row) that would equate to about $16.00 per linear foot installed (assuming 5' length rock (other dimensions approx. 2' and 3' on a side), @ 100' of wall = 20 rocks @ 2 tons per rock = 40 tons x $40.00 = $1,600.00 / 100' = $16.00 per foot.

That gives at least another option $1,600.00 per 100 foot wall, compared to
$4,000.00 per 100' (@ above quotes of $40.00(+) per foot).

If a super clean level top is desireable, you could add a 3" x 2' cap of concrete for probably around another (my estimate) $350.00 (or less).

When that's done, just grade into the back of the rock's top elevation and seed (or whatever).

Then too, you have to consider what you're ending up with. The rock is going to be there a long, long, long, long, (okay that's enough) time.

I don't think, on a lake, you need the depth discussed above for the other type construction that seems more suited for BIG waves, tides, etc.

I have actually seen shoreline erosion measures similar to what I've described above on lakes in my area that have been there for years (10 +). They get plenty of boat wave and wind wave action and they still look like the day they were installed.

Installation would involve setting the bottom of the rock slightly below (even up to 1 or 2 feet below) the shoreline ground elevation. Easily done with a back hoe.

Permits? Call your local Soil Conservation Office or whatever State and/or Federal Water Management Agencies the area is subject to.

In Maryland, these often don't cost anything, but you defintely better get a permit before digging. If you don't , that's when they start charging you to do the work! :jestera:

Another plus, and my final note; very often, the average "permitting, tree hugging types", prefer anything with a natural look. May or may not be a concern in your area. Worth mentioning. We have proposed designs using concrete structures that probably would have been more sound in a given situation that permitting agencies have shot down. Propose the same thing using natural looking rock and it flies right through. Of course Maryland is kind of picky like that.

Hope this gave you some thought options.

boxy
03-11-2004, 09:57 AM
Craig, where we live all shore line is protected by the Rideau Valley Conservation Authority (hairy dictators in birkenstocks), and the rip rap you are talking about is the only option authorized by them. The only other thing I would look at in Rootsy's case is to make sure the contractor dug down to at least the frost, or shale level to prevent frost heaving, that would be my only concern with a steel wall.


PS: the treehuggers like riprap because the little froggies can climb out of the water if they fall in, plus in minimizes boat wake/wave bounce, plus Rootsy if you installed rip rap you'd have a gradual slope into the water, so then you could install a marine railway, and winch the 16 right into your living room. :D