Delamination/fiberglass Question

[Fish boy]

No this is not on a donzi, but still a high speed high performance boat that would be a fun project boat. It has delamination on the hull and looks pretty bad. THe price is right, but I know very little about this stuff. Do any of you who have worked with fiberglass have any suggestions? Do's and don't, things to watch out for? I wont get upside down on the price, but I also don't want to buy something that is only likely to come apart at high speed.

Thanks,

Fish

PS, don't think I can get to the stringers without cuting out floor, but appears that the only problem area is on the hull in the pics

[Walt. H.]

Hi Fish,

Looks like it took one hell of a flexing hit, is that a hole rippped thru also on picture #2?

It all could be repaired bottom side down but you'll be defying gravity making it a little harder to do and messier on you. You could really tilt it up onto its side for best results.

1-You'll have to grind past the surround damaged area and through the gel-kote.
2-Build up with fresh matt glass.
3-Fair it out smooth with tiger hair.
4- spray a good .020 thick coat of color matched gel-kote thinned with actone and wet sand smooth to blend.

If that is a hole through the bottom in photo #2 I would strongly recommend laying in a glass patch of matt glass first followed by a layer of woven & roven glass. Ps, grinding that inside area first with at least a #36 grit wheel before the glass work.

Once done it will be the strongest part of the hull.


There is more involved but this will give you a basic idea of the how to fix. :smash:

Walt :) Pick a video on fiberglass boat repairs there of many out there with all the how to info, tools needed and require material. This way it will show you whats really involve and if its something you want to try.

[gcarter]

Walt's answer is 100% correct. This is no different from a severe case of osmotic blisters. The only thing I would add is dry the hull thoroughly first.
Go for it Fish!

George

[Forrest]

Hi Fish,

. . . spray a good .020 thick coat of color matched gel-kote thinned with actone . . .




Do you thin gelcoat for spraying with acetone? The reason I ask is that I've always used styrene thinning gel-coat or polyester resin and have only used acetone for clean-up and prep.

[Lenny]

Styrene is the correct Forrest. Acetone will change the make up of the product. Styrene is what is off-gassing when you utilize Gelcote and is part of ALL resin make-ups. It is also the product that "dissolves" the binder that holds the matt/roven products together until they kick.

Acetone will work, but you are REALLY altering the original product. Styrene in these quantities does as well, but it is more "in family".

[Walt. H.]

Yes Forrest I do everything with actone even the clean up including tools and spray equiptment.

I never knew of anything else, all the written material down through the years and the available video's only mention using actone for all of the above.
I'm talking about using "polyester resin's" not epoxy west type systems.

Otherwise please tell me more about "styrene" as a thinner, I only know of it as a type of plastic.

Thanks,
Walt.

Ps,all the gel-kote I ever used was also made of polyester and mixed with actone.

[Walt. H.]

Lenny,

Now you have me confused!

Walt

[Lenny]

Walt. Acetone is ALL I use for clean-up as well. On everything, the pot, lines, material delviery hoses etc. Same as you.

The problem with thinning Gel-coat with Acetone is that is WAS NEVER in the formulation of the original product to begin with. It will flash off much faster than Styrene and sometimes create problems. The PLUS side of using Styrene is that it is part of the original Formulation of all Polyester resin based products, and I stated above, it is the agent to break down the binders of the glass product you are using. When you thin with Styrene (Gel-coat) the molecules actually bind to their own likeness in the original formulation and have little effect on the chemical properties and attributes of the final product. Any chemical Company (DOW, ASHLAND, REICHOLD etc) will direct you this way as a first choice instead of Acetone for thinning resin, be it Gel-coat or lay-up resin, vinylester etc.

There is also a MAXIMUM recommended thinning ratio and that is not to exceed 5% of the weight of the original product with the weight of the thinning component. After that, you start to drastically change the make-up and properties of what you went out of your way to find in the first place.

Acetone for everything else tho... :D

[MOP]

The tech info above is great stuff, stuff that helps all the guys. But me being my normal Doom Sayer self, please have a true pro sound the hull. They can hear thing that may not mean much to you but means a pot to thier trained ears. Also when you get a hit like that what has happened to the inner stuctural stuff. I surveyed for a few years, I would dig deeper before putting my hand my pocket.

[Fish boy]

Hey everyone,
thank you very much for your replies. Sounds like it probably can be fixed and the price is such that I am not going to get too upside down financially if it does not go the way I want it to.

Hving said that, I have one other question. I was talking to a guy who had a mirage (tunnel boat) that had a hole which was repaired by some friends ( I know "friends" is the operaive word here). It ended up coming apart in the area of 90+mph, and he was hurt pretty badly. If i do it, or have it done correctly (as described above), am I still running a risk if this boat doing the same thing?

Thanks,
Fish

[gcarter]

Fish, if you don't mind my $.02, I would try ( or have an expert try) to figure out what happened to it originally. If there are insuffisient structural members in the area of delamination, maybe that entire area needs to be reinforced internally (remember what happened to Chris Craft back in the early '90's? their boats were coming apart because of cost cutting). This may be what happened to your friends boat. It may not have been a 90MPH hull.

George

[MOP]

He I go again! Fiberglass is infinitely repairable you just need to know all of what may or may not be wrong. A good repair is at least as strong and more than often stronger than the original structure. It is the hidden un found areas that will cause a problem. If your friends boat had been done properly it would not have failed in the same area. I did this stuff for many years and was trained by the military and carried over into the boat biz, I was always of the school of a little extra. My jobs never let failed that I know of, it should be done by someone with hands on knowledge. All to many times guys get to happy with resin more is not better, just as not enough is no good. True there are some excellent glass techs on this board, one of which the Northern Wiz I have gotten info on newer stuff. They can give you some good but long distance guidance, it is still good to get a pro to show you how it is done properly and to show you some of the tools and things you will need to have on hand. A few good pointers will last you a life time.

MOP

[Walt. H.]

Thanks Lenny,

I learned something new but feel foolish, :bonk: after 40 yr's I was doing it all wrong using "actone". :frown: :jestera:

Strange? I never lost a boat or had a comeback do to a job failure. Even tunnel ram hood scoops on prostockers, pro-mods,flaired wheelwells on Corvettes, etc type cars, stay on without cracks from speed and or vibration. All thoses books and trade manuals I read from time to time never mentioned styrene even the product info and the later different how to repair glass boat video's I pick up to watch just to see someone elses work and technic's, they always mentioned "actone for thinning" nothing else.
I know you know your stuff very well :yes: so I have to ask you is using styrene something that isn't allowed here in the states for fiberglass?? Because I just went through a few of my supply catalogs for a quick look and "styrene" is not listed at all only actone.

So at least now I don't feel like I mentioned above but i'm still curious.

Catcha later, :wavey:

Walt

[Walt. H.]

Lenny,

I would still like to be enlighted about "styrene" regarding my above question to ya.

Thanks,
W.H

[Lenny]

I have to ask you is using styrene something that isn't allowed here in the states for fiberglass?? Because I just went through a few of my supply catalogs for a quick look and "styrene" is not listed at all only actone.

Walt, I did a search a week or so ago in New York for FRP suppliers and many have Styrene Monomer available. I talked (on the phone) to Ferro and Ashland (DOW) Chemical. I searched in Google under things like "gel-cote thinning", "gelcoat thinning", "gelcoat thinner", "gelcote thinner", "thinning gelcote" etc etc etc, there is a mountain of stuff out there, printed to support Stryene Monomer as the only chemical of choice in thinning Gelcoat. All for the same reasons as stated a couple of posts ago. I do it because that is what is recommended. I have parts that sit in the water for their lifetimes. I want to be sure that what I use is, and my methods applied to this, are based on the manufacturers reduction guidlelines. The resins I use come from the USA, Ferro (DONZI), Armourstar, AME, Hydropel and all have Styrene Monomer in them. It is available from all the wholesale FRP supply houses here and everywhere I look there (New York) as well. Mind you, it is not a "friendly product" but so little in FRP use is.

The problem with ACETONE for thinning is it flashes off too quickly, and is NOT any part of the Formulation Walt. It modifies the chemical model you are using. Too much Acetone in a thinning application can actually shrink the gel-coat soo much (when it flashes off) as to "pull" away from the mold after kicking. NO FRP chemists will ever say that Acetone is OK for thinning Gelcoat and most EVERYONE will tell you NOT TO TOUCH the formulation. Hence why we have pressure pots, and post-cat spray equipment and $9,000 for a gun is common.

FERRO's number in Plymouth, Indiana, (where marine resins and gelcoats are formulated) is 574-935-5131. Ask for Dave Carpenter. Run a thinning question by him.

AOC (Hydropel and Vibrin Gelcoats) (DONZI and Cigarette and many others' gels )901-854-2800, ask for Jeff Dommeyer, or Dan Oakley

ask to speak to a sales rep for your area in regards to thinning Gelcoats available through ASCHEM here http://www.ashchem.com/adc/composites/locations.asp

[Walt. H.]

Thanks Lenny,

Sounds impressive and believable, I've talked to a few people also but must be all the wrong ones, because they looked at me as though I had two heads when I mentioned "styrene".

Yes I know about the quick flash off and thats the beauty part, if you over thin wait a few mininutes and your good to go even with a $20.00 air brush sprayer for spot repairs.

Thanks for the return response and i'm looking forward to experimenting with the stuff ,
W.H

[Lenny]

Walt, one more thing. You will have a VERY hard time finding ANY resin manufacturer (Gel) that will endorse thinning it in ANY way. (Styrene or not)Hence why "we" pay for the application tools to do it as it is supplied. As well, you are aware of the "pot life" of these resins and gels arent' you? It varies, but in general, 3-6 months is the maximum open time (container time)for these products. In point, I can buy 45 gallon drums of Isopthalic resin that is nearing its' 6 months shelf life expectancy for about 75% of regular wholesale as it is treated like "day old bread" at the chemical distribution centers. If you have a project in mind, and it is lay-up ready, say a hull and a deck in this case, you will easily consume this barrel and then some (depending on the size of the project) and can realize some of these savings. Gel (5 gallon pails) work well for a hull and deck as it eats up the whole lot in a day and therefore it doesn't sit around. (or thicken) :D

5 gallon pressure pot, Binks model #2001 gun, teflon hoses, big #67 air cap, .018 needle...40-50 psi at the fluid nozzle, varying BAR for the pot, about 10-12 minutes of spraying at 65F and then you RACE for the Acetone and clean up...!!! :eek:

[Walt. H.]

Lenny,

I never layed an entire hull or a deck, I have been known to do a few sweat hogs in my day but thats another story. :biggrin.: I've only done repair work and custom add on's and never experienced any differculties or problems with using the cheap stuff (actone). I guess because I didn't have to work with molds, my work is all build ups then covered with "PVA release agent" for large areas to cover from air exposure for drying or just wax paper for small stuff.

thanks,
Walt

[Donzigo]

Walt, long ago you posted a really good explanation of how to repair fiberglass. I printed it and kept it. I've often referred toit, when ding repairs. Many thanks. You might want to bring it up again and re-post it. it helped me.

Fish, call Charles Wilson at 727-381-4321, if you want an expert's opinion or for him to do the work. He is reasonable and does great work. Everybody around here at the marinas know him. His business is GLAS-PRO, he lives in guldport. He's one of the best, I've ever seen.

[Walt. H.]

Many thanks Donzigo for the kind words,

It would be fun to look back and read what I wrote so yes please post it at your convenience or e mail it.


Thanks again for restoring a positive feeling, :yes:

Walt :)

[Walt. H.]

Lenny,

Please read line #10 right side of page on page #2
why I used actone all these years, Because its all I ever knew from what i've read.
http://www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/pb13.pdf

I can rest my case now. :wavey:

[Fish boy]

This has really turned into an informative thread. Thanks everyone for all of the input and ideas. I will know within a week or so if the deal will happen, but even if it does not, I know a lot more about glass than I did when I started.

Thanks again,
fish

[Lenny]

-----Original Message-----
From: TAP Plastics [mailto:info@tapplastics.com]
Sent: Mon 3/8/2004 10:11 AM
To: Leonard Green
Cc:
Subject: Re: Gel-coat thinning
On 3/7/04 1:39 PM, "Leonard Green" <Leonard.Green@telus.com> wrote:

> TAP Plastics
>
> http://www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/pb13.pdf
> <http://www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/pb13.pdf>
>
> In this document you posted, you direct "Do it Yourselfers" to thin Gel-coat
> for spray application by using Acetone. I have been unable, to find ANYONE,
> (Chemist in the Industry), be it Ferro, Hydropel, AOC, Ashchem etc, that will
> recommend using acetone anywhere near Gel-coat in a thinning
> application. If it is required (thinning) then the ONLY chemical suitable is
> Styrene as it is part of the original Component and in limited quantities (-
> 5% by weight) does not alter the make-up of the original product.
>
> What do you base your decision on to employ the use of Acetone for thinning
> gelcoat and are you aware of any implications by doing so instead of Styrene.?
>
> Please enclose a "CC" to Highlnd@telus.net
>
> Thank you, Len Green
> 250.474.4005
“Their reply”
Acetone has been used longer that I've been in the business (1971) to
reduce gel coat for spot repair. (we're talking about sq inches not feet)
It's not recommended by manufactures and chemists but it does work for spot
repairs. Have you asked the chemist in the industry for the maximum amount of
styrene monomer you can use? (yes, 5% was my answer) You need a lot of styrene monomer to reduce
the viscosity of gel coat to the level necessary for spraying gel coat
through an aerosol sprayer. For the best results we recommend following the manufactures recommendations. What we suggest is a way for someone whose not the the business and without
the correct equipment and experience to spray gel coat, a way to make small
repairs that while NOT as good as out of the can gel coat is acceptable for
many. We also sell styrene monomer.



Gel coat thinning

Acetone Acetone: The cleaning solvent used for polyester resins.
Styrene Synthepol Styrene Monomer: The solvent used for the thinning of polyester and vinylester resins, gelcoats, and flowcoats.


How can I thin polyester resin? Epoxy?
Use no more than a ratio of 10% by volume of the Styrene Monomer for thinning, as higher concentrations will degrade the resin's properties. Do NOT use with epoxy.
◦Product: TAP Styrene Monomer
Mono styrene - For thinning of polyester resins

Acetone - For cleaning of tools

http://www.diy-boat.com/Pages/ezine/ez_promo/2002_1/13.pdf

when thinning gel , Acetone is not the best.
It will disturb the chemistry of gel coats
and can cause curing issues,( tacky )
There are thinners such as patch-aid or Speed patch made to assist with spraying gel coat. tThis is what is commonly used by Sea Ray factories from where I work.

http://www.minicraft.com/retail/solvents.htm

• Gelcoat is quite viscous and almost impossible to spray without thinning it. The less you can thin it the better the gelcoat will be, so the use of a larger spray tip is required. I use both 2mm & 2.2 mm HVLP gravity feed cup guns for most of my heavy shoots. At this size the thinning is kept to a minimum.

Do not thin your gelcoat with acetone, MEK or lacquer thinner. Thinning with these materials can lead to an un-curable application that will aligator on the next shoot, destroying all the time and materials for both shoots, (been there, done that, got several T-shirts to prove it...). The best product to use, (manufactured by several resin companies), is called "patch booster". Patch booster is a high quality, low viscosity polyester resin with additives to minimize a tacky surface when cured. Depending on the tip size of your gun, 10% - 15% patch booster is all you may need. Try not to exceed 20% in the first three coats.

Solvents - acetone is the most common solvent used in fibreglass operations to clean rollers, brushes and other equipment. It is very highly flammable and must never be mixed with MEKP. (catalyst, methyl ethyl ketone)





Leonard
We do not recommend that you thin our gel coats. We recommend you contact us and purchase a gel coat that will work in your application. You can contact me using the information provided below if you have any questions or need a gel coat recommendation.

Daniel J. Riley
Gel Coat Product Development Manager
Ashland Specialty Chemical Company
Phone: (614) 790-6362
Fax: (614) 790-6503
Cell: (614) 313-4584


Walt, I am NOT baiting you, I just want you to be aware of the right way. As well, MEKP (catalyst) and Acetone is a deadly combination... :D

[Walt. H.]

Leonard,

I really don't care enough at this point to continue this how to do a repair topic, let it go.
This isn't rocket science, just another form of surface cover like different grades of paint quality. In a few hours i'll be 52 and I been using acetone since I was 11 or 12 without any of the ill effects mentioned above. Like the fellow said:


"Acetone has been used longer that I've been in the business (1971) to
reduce gel coat for spot repair. (we're talking about sq inches not feet)
It's not recommended by manufactures and chemists but it does work for spot
repairs. Have you asked the chemist in the industry for the maximum amount of
styrene monomer you can use? (yes, 5% was my answer) You need a lot of styrene monomer to reduce
the viscosity of gel coat to the level necessary for spraying gel coat
through an aerosol sprayer. For the best results we recommend following the manufactures recommendations. What we suggest is a way for someone whose not the the business and without
the correct equipment and experience to spray gel coat, a way to make small
repairs that while NOT as good as out of the can gel coat is acceptable for
many. We also sell styrene monomer."


Lenny,

After reading all the data you gathered over the past two weeks, even styrene shouldn't be used. So Just let it go, there's gray area with both and not just who's right or wrong cut & dry. When you've been doing something for years with a satisfactory outcome you should stick with it. In a few year's or 30 some hot-shot will tell you, "That you have been doing it wrong for all these years too." And that styrene will have all these ill effects because there will be something different or better discovered to work with and protect us from the environment etc. :rolleyes:
All I know is that i've been doing repairs on fiberglass after the builder or the owner screwed up. I wonder what was in the chemistry of that yellow boat's hull that delaminated? Just like some mechanic's swear at Fords and some swear by them. Or "good prep and cheap paint vs, poor prep and good paint. Life goes on and use what makes ya happy, it's no biggy! :umbrella: :beer: :umbrella:


Keeping it Fun, :)

Walt


Ps, Baiting is illegal unless it's fishing!