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MOP
09-25-2002, 09:16 PM
Do you love your wife and kids? Really if so read the article in the link below. Check with your friends that own repair shops they will tell you the same things I know to be true. Put flowers on the graves of friends like I do, God Bless The SUV!

http://www.nydailynews.com/09-25-2002/news/ideas_opinions/v-pfriendly/story/21511p-20414c.html

Formula Jr
09-26-2002, 05:49 AM
MOP, In two sentences or less; are current SUV's more or less dangerious to their owner's than any other sort of car? And if so, why?

Ranman
09-26-2002, 08:29 AM
Well, there's a biased opinion. :rolleyes: Don't know how I'd tow my Donzi with a Taurus. :rolleyes: I guess I'll just stick to my big ol gas guzzlin' F150. :rolleyes: Besides, I like to see over the top of all the cars. :p

Tidbart
09-26-2002, 11:12 AM
Another cussball bleeding-heart liberal heard from.
"Until now, the only ammo we had against these road hogs...."
Ammo? It is clear to me what the real point of this story is. Next it will be any boat that goes over 10 MPH.

Liberty and Freedom!!
Live Free or Die!! You can take the boy out NH, but........

Bob

HyperDonzi
09-26-2002, 11:30 AM
Wait till the roads get slippery in a few months. Watch the SUV drivers. They will push those trucks harder than what should even be thought of on public roadways with no roll cage. I guess they see the guys using the jeeps off road and think they could do it too.

Rootsy
09-26-2002, 12:00 PM
winter accidents aren't generally the fault of the SUV but the fault of those thinking they are invincible because they have 4 wheel drive and operate these vehicles way beyond their abilities... 4 wheel drive does nothing for you on ice or slippery roads... cept spin all 2 or 3 or in a rare case 4 (do you have positraction???) tires and get you in an unwanted and generally unpleasant situation... A bright person will maybe actually realize that a big honkin SUV isn't a winston cup car...

There's just something women like about a pick-up man... :p

MOP
09-27-2002, 08:01 AM
Hell I can't do anything in two sentences! I like alot of other folks put a ton of mileage on a year. Have you not watched them weave all over the road, you can't see through them from most directions, they live in the left lane, give your wife or kid one the instantly learn to be a Max tail gater, have you noticed when being followed all you see is the hood ornament. They do not stop as quick as a car. Atleast a third of my friends have at least one and constantly crab about gas mileage. The facts about crash rates are proven. Yeah I could have one too, but I am really against them. They polute and they are proven to be dangerous. I choose to have two cars and use my truck for the Donzi. Some people ignore the facts to follow the Fads!

Ranman
09-27-2002, 11:07 AM
Whatever!! Cars today, including the oh so terrible SUV's are so more economical and fuel efficient than the past that it's a moot point. Not to mention they're getting better every year. If you want to pick on polluters, go after the ten year old junker that's way out of tune. My F150 has a LEV sticker on it. Is that not good enough for you?

"Have you not watched them weave all over the road"
..."they live in the left lane, give your wife or kid one the instantly learn to be a Max tail gater"

These same people would most likely be aggressive drivers in a car too. And this is the vehicles fault? Puuuhhlleasse. Maybe we should give lessons on driving a vehicle that is heavier and has a higher center of gravity. Of course they're more dangerous...it's common fu**ing sense. The problem is that our society has dismissed common sense and continually caters to the stupid with warning stickers and advisories. Whatever happened to common sense? If I tried to replace my fan belt with the engine running and cut my finger off, I'd be like "you dumbass, why'd you do that?" I wouldn't sue Gates for not warning me, and subsequently have a sticker on the belt stating not to replace with the engine running. Our litigous society caters and breeds stupidity and it's disgraceful.

"At least a third of my friends have at least one and constantly crab about gas mileage."

How is this an argument when they publish the gas mileage on the window sticker. If you don't have enough common sense to realize that a big V8 in a heavy vehicle will get worse gas mileage than your average car....

"They polute and they are proven to be dangerous."
They don't pollute any worse than the example above. Why don't people pick on airplanes that burn x thousands of gallons of fuel each flight? Big jets ar by far worse polluters than automobiles.

"Some people ignore the facts to follow the Fads!"

This is America, land of the free. A capitalist society. If you want to continue to be Communist...move to China where you don't have to think for yourself. Deal with it or leave.

What the hell, it's a pointless argument. I'm disgusted with what this country has come to.

MOP
09-27-2002, 11:45 AM
I agree with what we are coming to, I still take exception to the government allowing the SUV to be classified as a truck. True that is what it is a pretty truck. They could do alot better with the fuel issue, I drive a Park Avenue, it gets 22 in town and 30 at 70 on the highway. Why can't an owner of an SUV expect 15-17 town and 20-23 road I don't think thats unrealistic.

P.S. Did anyone fully read the article?

Rootsy
09-27-2002, 12:15 PM
the fact is... automobile manufacturers CAN get better gas milage out of V8 motors... one example...

Ford's Modular motors. When ford introduced the 4.6L for initial development and testing in about 1992 the valvetrain as well as ECU fuel and ignition maps were completely different than they are today in the hands of the general public. During initial valvetrain development and durability testing the 4.6L initially dyno'd in the 300 hp neighborhood and was making in the mid 20's for fuel milage. best mine has ever done in the F150 is 19. Ford engineers stepped in and said.. oh that is too much power, you know insurance and liability reasons.. knocked the lobes off of the camshafts, reprogrammed the fuel and ignition curves and made it a paltry 220ish hp and killed fuel efficiency...

i as well as a couple of friends on the inside have all but exhausted our search for a set of prototype camshafts and e-prom for my 98 F150... bummer eh...

only one of the big 3 with any balls is GM, and boy do those vortec motors ever run...

HyperDonzi
09-27-2002, 02:40 PM
GM is going to step up on the fuel issue for the 2004 model year. Read this a while back, might have been pushed back but it is called Displacement On Demand. Where the driver can flip a switch that shuts the valves and stops the ignion from going to 4 of the cylinders on their V-8 engines. Flip the switch back and your on all 8 cylinders for acceleration or towing power.

Tidbart
09-27-2002, 03:29 PM
How can anyone who owns Donzi, bitch about vehicles that get lousy gas mileage? I have a very fuel-efficient eighteen that gets about four miles per gallon!

Let's face it, it is not the vehicles that is the problem, it is the drivers!!!!!!!!

Just my 2 cents.

Bob

HyperDonzi
09-27-2002, 03:43 PM
The biggest advantage cars have over boats is a transmission. (Thats what I think) Think about it, what RPM are you at in your 18 when you are doing 65? now what RPM when your in you car or truck?

Tidbart
09-27-2002, 04:44 PM
Boat' will never be anything like a car as far as gas mileage is concerned. Friction, resistance, efficiency. All work against the boat.

B

Cuda
09-27-2002, 09:14 PM
Didn't Cadillac make an engine in the 80's that was like the Displacement on Demand? I think it was call a "4-6-8" engine. My boss owned one.

Cuda
09-27-2002, 09:22 PM
As far as the government regulating something because it is dangerous. The is a lot inherently dangerous about 2 tons of steel traveling in close proximity no matter what shape it is.

I destest the government legislating health, when is of our own choice. What's next, the balanced diet act? :mad:

Gary S.
09-29-2002, 05:23 AM
Food for thought ,,,,, the SUV is the result of the government stepping in. Think about it,,, where did the popular station wagon go ?? You know the roomy car with room for 3 kids and a ton of groceries for mom to drive. Well the economy standards killed that and they put 4 doors on a truck and called it a SUV,,,,my basic rule is liberalism allways creats the opposit of what it intended to do, and thats a prime example.

Gearhead99
09-29-2002, 06:32 AM
Have been in the car business my entire life and have watched the changes in what we drive.

Detroit and Dearborn gave us "Large" gas guzzlers in the 60's & 70's cause that what the public wanted. And further that's what the manufacture wanted to make.

I remember customers telling me in 1979, the 1980 Lincoln was just coming out. It was 13 inches shorter then the 1979. Had a 302 V-8 instead of a 460. Anyway, many comments were. "I'm not buying that sawed off car." "It's too short." "I'm going to buy the new Caddy, it's still a big car, more car for the money...". So go figure.

The first oil embargo of 1973 caught us by surprise. Then the USA car buyer made Honda and Toyota rich. After all we had 454's, 460's, 455's, 440's, etc. These engines made lots of power and burned lots of fuel.

The public ran around in jelly bean econo-boxes for awhile. But, americans want "Large" land cruisers. Jeep came out with the Cherokee. Started the SUV. Ford followed with the Explorer and the race was on.

Large Vehicles again, lots of room. But they were called "Trucks".

Want to see it all change again???? Have another 1973 embargo. No !!!!!!! I'm not wishing for one....but if it should happen the SUV's will follow suit of the 455 Olds, 454 Chevelles, 428 Mustangs. End up on the car lots for pennies. No one and I mean No one will want them. The used car market will flood with them. The trade-in values will hit rock bottom and "Liberals" will want the "Econo-boxes" again.

One last thing........Have you compared the size of a 1986 Honda Accord to a new one??? Wow !!!!! did that baby grow.

Get off soapbox now...
Thank you.

McGary911
09-29-2002, 02:50 PM
One thing that misses a lot of people that i talk to, is the safety factor of these things. They are built to light truck safety standards, which are lower than passenger cars. Couple that with the high center of gravity and longer braking distances, and these are vehicles that are a lot less safe than a car. Remember when a blow out was a little tricky to handle, but you gained control of the car, and got to the side of the road. Now that we have an inherently unstable ford explorer, and a blow out causes the things to flip, and leads to one of the biggest recalls the auto\tire industry has ever seen. Not to mention the finger pointing between firestone and ford.
As for big suv in accident with little car, sure the suv will probably fair better, but most accidents involve single vehicles, and that momentum that that heavy truck carries, takes a lot more crashing to dissipate the energy when hitting a stationary object.
Too many people try to drive them like cars. How many yukons have you seen in the parking lot with all 4 corners scuffed up? Tons of them here in jersey. I think for most people, it makes a terrible primary vehicle.
Then there's the $$$ situation. Ford makes a LOT more selling an Explorer than it does selling a taurus wagon.

RH
09-29-2002, 05:13 PM
Well, I travel and put on about 50,000 business miles on a year. My wife has a 60 mile daily comute through "deer country" here in Iowa. She drove a Jeep grand Cherokee and now has a Cadillac Escalade. She has had 4 deer encounters in the last 4 years, two did considerable damage. I am just thankfull that she was in the large SUV vehicle. IT probably saved personal injury on both of the damage incidents according to the investigating officers. Granted, they do sit higher and windage is a factor, but we drive them for pulling the boats, traveling in comfort and i beleive a higher degree of safety with air bags, and antilock brakes. Anything is dangerous if you drive that way. Tailgating, speed and overdriving the road conditions lead to accidents. I take great offense to paying higher insurance because we want to protect ourselves from a smaller more dangerous Yugo style vehicle.
Whew... I feel better now!
RH

HyperDonzi
09-29-2002, 06:00 PM
McGary911, dont forget about the Firestone blow outs... :rolleyes:

mattyboy
09-30-2002, 09:30 AM
Gas mileage is what it is, they now introduce small hybrid powered cars that are basically dorr mats for the suv on the road. I would rather pay more money to ride in a bigger vehicle. if you get into a car to car crash that one thing but a car and and suv the cars never gonna win.
and suv's do handle differently, I saw this first hand last year here in NJ on rt 17 a woman in a brand new jeep grand cherokee following a garbage truck tail gating when debris fell from the truck she had not left enough room to brake safely so she veered to the right lost control and rolled several times in front of me then off the road.
had she being driving a car she might not have rolled. but she was driving the suv like a ferrari not a truck which it is, the are safe when driven safely, just like the nimrods you pass me at 60mph in snow and ice 4 wd gets you going doesn't help you stop or steer, so I stop and say If I had 4wd I could pull your 4wd out
nimrods

Matt

Formula Jr
10-01-2002, 05:17 AM
There are water craft that can approch the MPG of modern autos. But the comparison is an apple and orange consideration. For example, the fastest human powered boat went over 30 mph. People are generaly considered to put out about 1/4 horse power. That same boat powered by a high efficiency gas motor would easily surpass 100 mpg.

Donzigo
10-01-2002, 08:00 PM
My two cents......

Lifetime cars owned
1948 Nash (BIG HEAVY upside down bathtub)
1965 Sunbeam Alpine
1967 Volkswagon
1970 Mercury Capri
1971 Thunderbird(what a sexy car, what sheetmetal)
1973 Lincoln
1975 Lincoln
1977 Lincoln
1980 Cadillac (deisel-lac, what was I thinking)
1983 Pacer (what the hell was I thinking? and another bathtub thing, to boot)
1985 Lincoln Mark
1987 Lincoln Mark (dated a chick for the first time, who's last boyfriend keyed the entire freaking vehicle with 6 miles on it, while we were inside her apartment playing doctor/nurse, dang I was mad, but I did know what I was thinking this time, get's me into trouble every time)
1990 Allante (best car I ever owned, so cool)
1993 Cherokee
1996 Grand Cherokee & 1989 Corvette (present day, maybe not so new, but paid for)

Some of my rides safe, some were not, now, I drive 40,000 a year and love the Grand Cherokee to death. Truck / Car / Mileage issues, all valid & agreed to. But, it's my horse and like they say in Texas: "No need to dis-mount until the horse is dead!" You know what else, the only car I ever KNEW that I was safe in was that 1948 NASH! Hell, I pulled into the front yard in Jackson, Miss after high school one day, the brakes failed and I knocked down a pretty good sized tree, and I don't think any of my other cars could have done that! Yeah baby, I felt safe in that TUB!

Richard

Sagbay32
10-01-2002, 08:26 PM
I love it when people say that 4wd does not help you on ice! Come ride with me :D

I belive that 2 (or in my case 4) wheels that are searching for traction instead of one is a much better ratio on ice.

I also believe that when braking on ice it is much better in 4wd because if you downshift you are slowing down 2 sets of tires instead of one set.

My $.02

If you don't believe me wait until it snows and I will show you....GPS and all!

Mike Upa North

mattyboy
10-01-2002, 08:51 PM
Hey Sagbay I'll remember that the next time I see a nimrod who goes off the road in his 4wd in ice and snow,nimrods don't know how to downshift especially with an automatic, I can tell by the brake lights as they leave the paved surface wink :D

Matt

MOP
10-03-2002, 07:37 AM
In rain, mud, snow 4 wheel is great. But having lived in Caribou Maine driving for weeks at a time on glare ice anyone who thinks 4 wheel is the hot thing is a fool. Yes to get moving its great, but you soon realize that by kicking it out of 4 wheel you can controll your skids. In 4 wheel the only option you have is to try to power out which in many cases just won't work. And also I know for a fact that down shifting to reduce speed is the only safe way on real slick surfaces, when you shift down two of the drive wheels may skid one on each diferential but also one on each will roll free which is the normal action of a diferential. My best friend had an International Scout with posi in both ends, when things were bad he rode with me because no matter who tried to drive the Scout it always ended up in a snow bank. There is alot of Bull S**t going around about how invincable and safe 4 wheel is, If you are a fool believe it!