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DonziNUTS
10-02-2003, 09:16 AM
Hello all!
I think I might have a topic that can cause a little discussion! I know there are PPG guys and there are Imron guys on the thread.
My question is which should I used on the 1966 16 footer? I like both brands very much but there is always a cost factor. I can get PPG at a great price from my paint supplier...but I have never used PPG on a boat. (many vehicles though) I have used Imron on my last Donzi (and other boats) and I think it's hold up great in saltwater. The only thing with doing Imron is price!!
So what do you guys think on each one? Which line of PPG is the way to go?
I am scared of the boat "yellowing clear" :confused:

Please help again!!

Thanks!
Mike

Tidbart
10-02-2003, 10:42 AM
You need to talk to Scott Pearson. He is the man as far as PPG paints are concerned. I believe he worked for them some time ago and he knows them well and he uses them on his boats.
You also should search the performance section for previous posts on this subject. I know that I have seen stuff on it in the past.

B

smokediver
10-02-2003, 10:48 AM
hmmm.... maybe a beer and popcorn for this one..
you won't need to use clear if you go with Concept. which ppg product are you going to be using ? there are many different types of paint so make sure you are matching apples to apples.
scott p. worked for ppg and I worked for a while with a ppg jobber..

DonziNUTS
10-02-2003, 10:58 AM
Paging Scott Pearson....Mr. Pearson!

Can you give some input? I was thinking about PPG Durathane, but went to paint store and they no longer make that line. Talked about Concept...but want to know after putting down the desired coverage...can I put a clear on top to get that deep rich look after sanding and buffing like I get in the vehicles I have done? I have always used BC/CC.
Does anyone know alot about the Imron 6000/5000 line?
Thanks for your help!!!

smokediver
10-02-2003, 03:07 PM
you can clear over concept ... but ... why not use base coat and then clear ... big money savings there !!! I think scott p . used dbc basecoat and then clear coated ... if you are going the clear coat route then i would use a base coat instead of concept.. kind of a waste of money.. some people used to lay down a coat of concept and then go over it with a mix of half clear and half concept... however , with the newer clear coats now on the market, the mix ratios for the clear and the concept are now different...they do have a clear concept that is an additive to the color..but i am unsure how that would work... go talk to your local ppg jobber.. i will tell you that the concept is much easier to work with than imron... hope this helps

Scott Pearson
10-02-2003, 04:20 PM
Mike...this is going to take awhile....I will post later tonight. I need to cut my lawn before dark.


(NJ)Scott

Scott Pearson
10-02-2003, 06:40 PM
OK...lawn is cut! Lets see...PPG VS Imron (Dupont)....wow this could get very drawn out and ugly...so here goes. First...we need to compare apples to apples. Is it Imron 5000 or 6000? Or just plain Imron? All Imron is not a true Polyurethane. Its a modified enamel with a urethane catalyst. PPG however is a urethane and a polyurethane.

Now....Im not shooting DuPont down...they have great products. I just don't think Imron is one of them. Chroma Base on the other hand is.

As far as price...Once again...what type of PPG and what type of Imron. Its going to be expensive no matter what way you go. But, you get what you pay for. PPG Omni line is cheap...but I wouldn't put it on my boat. Same goes for DuPont Nason...its cheap....but I wouldn't put it on Cliffs boat....lol.

Ok....so Do you want a single stage or a basecoat/clear coat??? I used Basecoat/Clearcoat on mine. DBC basecoat with DCU 2002 clear with DCX 9 hardener. You can use DCX61 or DCX8 hardener, but DCX9 is more mar resistant. Once I had 3 coats of clear on I let it cure of 2 weeks and wet sanded it with p1000 and recleared the entire boat. Gave it a Flow coat. Its like a sheet of glass and no buffing....I hate buffing!

Now that's my 1968 2+3 I did that to. My 1967 Hornet will be done with DCC Concept single stage then wet sanded with p1000 and cleared.


ok..back to Imron. Imron is a Fleet style paint. Not meant or designed for automotive. So....thats where you come into...How good do you want it to look? Same goes for the PPG Delta line....Great product and blows Imron away as far as color hold out, shine, durability etc. Its Graffiti and skidrol resistant. But....its still a fleet style paint.

I like my stuff to look like a Mercedes...not a Mack truck.

Man....I have so much more info...just don't know what way you want to go.

I can tell you this preparation is everything!!! Its 90% of your paint job. Also, use the same brand all the way! Don't use someone else's primer under someone else's paint. No matter who's product you use...use it from start to finish! That's why they call it a system. I can tell you horror stories about some real know it all's....


Anyway....fire away at the questions! I will try and answer them to the best of my knowledge.


(NJ)Scott

TuxedoPk
10-02-2003, 07:04 PM
Scott,

I know that I (and I'm sure others) would learn alot if you explain WHY you've made the choice to go with DCC Concept single stage then wet sanded with p1000 and cleared on your Hornet.

It will be really interesting to see what your short list was and how you came to the final decision on the best way to approach the job.

Rootsy
10-02-2003, 07:23 PM
taking lots of notes here... you just keep on educating away great pumpkin :D

and OMNI... ugh, ugh, ugh.. been there done that... BC/CC... never again... half the price BUT it takes nearly double the product to achieve the same results as the real deal... :rolleyes: :( :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

mattyboy
10-02-2003, 09:07 PM
but does it come in pumpkin orange and mint lime green??? :p wink :D when S Pearson talks Paint People listen!!!! wink :D I have a urethane paint hull and imron deck ,and what Scott says is true paint is easier to keep shiney but it blisters( oh $#!+ did I say that out loud) if you leave it in the water for the season :rolleyes:

Matty
Thinkin the 16 would look cool has hell in a black PPG DCC CDX WTF and Pearl done by Scott Pearson :cool:

Scott Pearson
10-02-2003, 09:10 PM
Ok...DCC then clear because why go through all the work that I went through on the 18 that I dont need to go through on the Hornet. The 18 I didnt have a choice because of all the pearl that I put over the basecoat. Also the orange on the 18 took 8 coats to hide. I'm sure the yellow on the Hornet would be about the same with DBC basecoat. Reason being....all the bright colors like Yellow, Orange etc have no Chrome in them anymore...so they are poor hiders. But with DCC single stage will cover in about 3 coats. Reason being...its a high solids product. You can only do this with DCC on stright colors. No metallics! But you would be crazy to shoot DCC metallic anyway...the matallic control sucks!

Rootsy...yup, the Sqf coverage on Omni isnt much. Thats another good thing to look at is the Solids, wet mil and dry mil thickness and SQF coverage of products. And the price it costs to spray an ounce. I have a program somewhere that does all that. This way you see where your getting your bang for you buck.


Hope this helps

(NJ)Scott

GEOO
10-02-2003, 09:39 PM
Scott, What PPG can & should I paint the bottom of my boat with? And will this paint hold up if I leave the boat in the water for a week? Thanks.

mattyboy
10-02-2003, 10:09 PM
Geoo,
I think you need high velocity paint!!!!!
what holds up over 100 mph !! wink wink :D :cool: :D


Matty

DonziNUTS
10-03-2003, 09:53 AM
Scott,
Thanks for your input....Like to hear from another guru!!!
Ok here I go...
I think nothing about sanding and buffing! I am not afraid of that. In fact I spend alot of time doing this for the extra gloss. When you wait the two weeks after clearing...do you reduce the clear 150-200%? I know when I used HOK I did this after clearing and sanding with 500 grit and recleared at 200%. WOW did that sucker shine after buffing! Love HOK but way to expensive. Anyway, I have painted Omni on several low budget paint jobs...not bad paint..but I think the clears are coming along very nice!
Another question is...What the chance of the BC/CC clear "yellowing" after a couple of years in saltwater? (The boat will stay in the water maybe two days the most)
Let's talk about Imron....Imron 6000 is top of the line of the Imrons. I have used Imron 333 which is a performance coating for offshore oil rigs and bouys. Man that stuff was great. I actually threw a rock at it and never marked or chipped! But it does not have the gloss like a BC/CC.
For the most of it sounds like everyone like the PPG better? If this was your boat and sanding and buffing was no object...What system would you go with?

PS - Would you used any Flex Additive or does the paint have that much give in flex?

Hey...I see you live in Howell, NJ? I will actually be there on Thurs. & Friday for the rest of the year! I am an Engineer for Wawa...would love to spin by sometime to check out your paint work?
Thanks a bunch!!

Mike Baiocco

Thanks a bunch!!!!

Morgan's Cloud
10-03-2003, 11:55 AM
Scott ...
I don't believe that PPG products are available here but you referred to Imron as a "fleet product".
Can you explain what that means in relation to ,I guess, non fleet products ?...How do you recognise and define fleet products ?
I'm not quite stupid enough to believe that "paint's paint" but what defines these ?

Thanks for the cheap education !

Greg K
10-03-2003, 04:47 PM
All kinds of fleet type paints, used on aircraft, trucks, tractors and in other industrial applications. Just a few names..Dupont Imron, PPG Delta, Sherwin Williams Jetglo & Acryglo, Precision Coatings, National Paint, & Magnet Paints Magnatron are a few of the players in fleet type paints. Most of these paints or systems are single stage acrylic polyurethane enamels. Most of them are designed for excellent resistance to solvents, fuels, chemicals, fading, chipping, abrasions and scratches. They will also have UV screeners and light stabilizers to retain color and high gloss. FWIW

Scott Pearson
10-04-2003, 07:32 AM
George,
I would go with what Chris did on the rest of it. Just use a slow reducer and give it proper flash time between coats. One of the reasons why paint and gelcoats blisters is because it has traped solvents in the coating. I have left my boat in the water for 2 weeks and have never had a problem yet.

Mike B.

I dont mess with over reducing products at all. Once you interduce more solvents to clear you are looking for trouble. These clears are made to be mixed the way the MFG says. Yes...it might look good and flow out nice but how is it going to hold up. I change my flow and gloss by using slower hardners and reducers. When I recleard my 68 I mixed it just they same as I did on the first 3 coats. Remember all of they produts now are high solids or low VOC. They dont flow out like the old DAU clears. Also remember proper gun tip size. Thats 90% of the battle right there. I use a 1.3 on my Sata Jet 90 for all my clears. I really dont like HVLP guns. But that dosnt mean there no good.

As far as "Yellowing"....No way. the clears now will not do that. Unless you have a bad batch or something. And most likely it will be yellow in the can to start with. But, down the road it will not yellow. My deck on my 68 is pure white...with some orange pearl :D . About 5 coats of clear and not and yellow :cool:

As far as sanding and buffing...I would use DCU 2021 clear with DCX 61 hardner. Then sand with nothing less then 1500 grit and buff with the 3M Micro finish system. Sand and buff the boat in 3-4 days or it will be harder as it cures longer. Dony use DCX 8 or 9. You cant buff this stuff...it gets to hard.

Dont use flex additive, its a waste. It will leave the coating anyway in a month or two. Its only use is rubber bumpers that are a bitch to assamble. Dont waste you time or money.

WAWA...in Howell on Rt9 south?? Thats about 1 mile from my house. Your more then welcome to come by. Place is kinda of a mess with construction of the new addition but all the boats are here. I wont be around the end of this week but the following week will be great.


(NJ)Scott