Testing a coil

[Brad Lyon]

I know I learned this in auto shop about thirty some years ago but I have forgotten the methods.

Is there a way to test a coil, points and the condenser of an ignition system? I ain't a gettin any spark in my International Harvester Super C farm tractor. I have a test light and I get voltage to the two small threaded terminals (one marked + and one marked -) on the coil.

Is there a way to see if the coil is putting out the voltage to the cap, and is there a way to see if the spark is jumping across the points and can a condenser be tested?

Brad

[MOP]

I usually start by checking to see if the points are making and breaking, you need an OHM meter for this see if it makes and breaks they should go from 0 to full scale do this with the key off no power. If not before you rip things apart disconnect the condenser and do the test over, condensers will kill spark may times. If still no spark the coil should be the culprit. My thoughts are predicated on the fact that you have voltage readings a the coil..

[MOP]

Crank it over and hold the coil wire real close to the block.

Crank it over in low light you should see the points spark.

To check a condenser remove it from the distributor touch the case to + and the wire to - now carefully touch the wire to the case it should spark. We used to charge them in school and in the shop and leave them laying around, scares thae heck out of anyone who picks them up even hours later.

Has it got that old flat cap distributor? If so they had a bad habit of firing through the top of the rotor so all the spark went to ground. I remember some of the old ones had that cap.

[Brad Lyon]

Thanks Phil, I will give those a try this weekend. You wrote "My thoughts are predicated on the fact that you have voltage readings a the coil..", all I had last weekend was a test light. It did light so know I had some voltage but I am not sure how much, I will take a VOM with me next time to get a more accurate reading.

Brad

[Rootsy]

Brad,

a tune-up kit is pretty cheap, 20 - 30 bucks or so for the Super C... points, condenser, cap and plugs...

if you have juice to the coil then the ignition switch is working... you should get an on / off effect in the wire from distributor to coil when you turn it over... as the points open and close... if there is juice to the coil on both sides then the points are closed in the distributor... check to make sure the gap and dwell is adjusted correctly. if the points closed up then you will not get a break in continuity and not fire the coil.

specs for your super C...

point gap - .020 inches

plug gap - .025 inches

firing order 1-4-3-2

intake lash - .014 HOT

exhaust lash - .014 HOT

for a comprehensive list of specs...

www.weberstractorworks.com (http://www.weberstractorworks.com) and then go to tune-up specs...

BRAD, if you cannot get her i'd be happy to come up on a saturday sometime after 1000 islands and get her running for you.. i have enough spare parts to make her run... or figure out why she won't! OR if you want to bring her down to the shop and leave her for a week or two i could get after it and make her purr if nothing internally is wrong!

THE W-4 IS FINALLY FINISHED!!!!!!!!!! WOO HOO!!! and she purrs like a kitten on a 51 year old UNREBUILT motor :D

LET THE M PROJECT BEGIN! OH WAIT, IT ALREADY DID :D

ROOT

[MOP]

Rootsy post some more of the pic's of your tractors, the last were great! Glad you jumped in. Besides I have been waiting for L H B Z which ever is your next one to attack and make Purty.

[Rootsy]

HMMMM MOP... I just happen to have a 1941 John Deere L and a 1953 John Deere B and 2 Farmall (International harvester) H's... Sorry no Minniapolis Moline Z yet :D

[Walt. H.]

M.O.P.,

Years ago 1970 senior year my buddies and I did that condensor trick in high school to our old english teacher for obvious kid reasons. Yeah! we thought it was cool revenge until our auto shop teacher heard about it and figured out who it was.
Off the record he laugh too,he said he didn't like her either! :rolleyes:

Hey was that you with me at Wm.E. Grady Voc.Tech, HS.in B'klyn, NY.? eek!

Walt......

[MOP]

Walt that was in tech school also in the 70s. I have'nt done that one in years. Hmmmm I wonder if the new kids in the shop will fall for it?

[Walt. H.]

Absolutely! even more now than then. Most new guy's turning screws for a living don't or wouldn't recognize a condensor until it was to late.
We use to charge one up and hold it by the body and the insulated portion of the wire, very casually and just ask "can you see any thing wrong with this connector end? They would always grab it by the terminal and body for a better look and
ZAP-ZAP!!!!! you sonnaha beach!!!and they'll be throwing it at ya! :D :p :D

Today it's a near cardiac seizure and a law suite. :confused: :mad:

O" Well! How times have change, No more fun prank's. Damm!!!

So I guess that wasn't you back then in B'klyn.

Walt....

[Rootsy]

did you ever get her fixed Brad? if you need some help give me a hollar...

MOP, i finished the W-4.. came out very well and for the most part i am satisfied with it but i am now onto my 1950 Farmall M.. the largest IH rowcrop tractor of the era. this one will be a show and go... show tractor + antique stock & antique open puller... she ain't stock inside dem dere cylinders... original 37 hp tractor now in the mid 60 range :D all at a maximum load rpm of 1450 rpm

http://www.donzi.net/photos/jaroot_M_18.jpg
http://www.donzi.net/photos/jaroot_M_8.jpg
http://www.donzi.net/photos/jaroot_M_9.jpg
http://www.donzi.net/photos/jaroot_M_4.jpg

[MOP]

Glad you popped the shots up was waiting & hoping, is that a mid sized IH. kind of big but not what you see plowing and the like. looking at the grill and just in general it looks alot like one that was on the estate I worked on as a kid. The owners had a tractor like that and a 36 Ford PU. Both were mint and kept in a garage. There was a big single blade mower that I used to cut down the brush, small trees and grass on the bay front section. The Ford PU only had about 1,500 miles on it even though it was 20 years old.

[Rootsy]

Phil,

from 1939 until 1954 International Harvester produced their famous letter series tractors. there were two lines, the rowcrop (adjustable tire widths so you dont squash your rows of corn, beans, etc) and the wheatland - a non adjustable version. Wheatland tractors were geared toward the great plains where the main chore was pulling a disk, harrow or plow for miles on end, back and forth.. the rowcrops were capable of the same but geared toward cultivating, etc.

The rowcrop in order of size from smallest to largest is the Cub (not really a rowcrop), A & I-A, B &BN, C, H and finally the M and MD (D standing for Diesel).

on the wheatland side you have the W-4 (same size as an H), W-6 and WD-6 (same size as an M), and W-9 and WD-9. These models could also be found, at least the W-4 and W-6 in Orchard models named the O-4 and O-6 or OS4 and OS6, also you had the industrial version for county work, etc and those were teh I-4, I-6, etc.

in 1952 International introduced the Super series which superceded the regular letter series tractors and lasted until 1954 when they moved to their number series of the 300, 400, 600, etc. available from 52- 54 were the Super A, Super C, Super H, Super M and Super MD, Super W-4, Super W-6 and Super WD-6, Super W-9 and Super WD-9. The main difference between teh super and regular tractors was factory live hydraulics and more power. Still no live PTO...

in 1953 International added a Torque Amplifier to the series and you got the Super MTA, Super MDTA (SUPER RARE), Super W-6TA, Super WD-6TA (Another rarity), Super W-9TA and Super WD-9TA.

This era of tractor is the transition between very crude and the modern tractor you see today... it was what bridged the gap between hand fit and mass production and led the way for the number series tractors of the 50's, 60's and 70's... every decade things just kept getting larger as implements grew and it took more traction and HP to pull them. Todays tractors share very little with the predocessors in terms of design and mechanically...

cosmetically all looked closely the same in styling... as you'll notice looking at the W-4 and the M as well as brad's super C. if you were pulling chopper which was PTO driven then you were most likely on a smaller or midsized tractor, a C or an H series... but you cannot rule out the larger M either.

ok history lesson over.. now where the flock are my valvesprings...

[BUIZILLA]

Rootsy, I still have some cast iron UD6 and UD9 injection pumps laying around. I may even have some magneto's and parts too. eek!

J

[Rootsy]

Jim,

i have a Super WD-9, which uses the IH D350 motor, which is in DIRE need of a cylinder head and at least one piston and some rings... some idiot broke the head (in every cylinder) then continued to run it for years... the pistons and upper sleeves look like the surface of the moon now... #1 piston has no ring land left.. or rings.. they kinda disappeared... somewhere... probably out the exhaust port... tis a gruesome sight... but at 1500 a pop for a set of NOS pistons and sleeves and another 1000 for a used and magnafluxed head casting i'll be looking for the bare essentials to put her back together so she can live a meek life idling around and looking good...

i did manage to score a brand new sleeve off of ebay for 21 bucks though!

so what are the chances of getting a head welded and having her hold??? say between every valve in every chamber and into the intake bowls... OUCH frown

[BUIZILLA]

I don't wanna ruin your week any further..... but one of my guys just cleaned out the defunct Dade Diesel Co. inventory, and 2 months ago tossed away 3 BRAND NEW, in the crate, UD9 heads :( screw in injectors or 2 bolt hold down?
get me your casting number and i'll see what I can round up from another guy.
There is a scrap tractor dealer in Okeechobee, Fla that has a bunch of old RD and UD stuff too.

J

[Rootsy]

@#$*(^@#$^@#(*6$@*^*&^wq#$^$@#$^*&^$@#&$^^*(@^*&@#^$@#^$*&@#^$&@#^$@^*&$^@#*$^*(^*(@^%$*&^@#$^()*@#^$*()@#)$(&@()#$&!^#&%!&%#!@&*#%@#&$@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :(

2 bolt hold down w/ o-ring.

the TD-9 dozer, Super WD-9, W-600 and the W-650 Diesel tractors used the same motors...

well i am SOL on pistons too unless i find a used one... but hey i have a new sleeve and i can get rings!!!!!

[BUIZILLA]

Roots, get me the tractor and engine serial number and the casting number of the head and i'll start looking. My sources tell me the stuff you need is available...

J

[Brad Lyon]

Jamie,

I did get her to start this weekend. The biggest problem was the point gap. She needs more work though, she runs real rough and I can not get full speed. When I go up next weekend I will tinker more. Thanks for all of your help.

If you need some parts here is a place you can call. This is where I bought my Super C and they have been in business for many many many years he may have the parts you need, if so I can bring them down for you.

Brad

Charles Wangler Sales
114 South 4th Street
West Branch, MI 48661
(989) 345-0496

[MOP]

Thanks Rootsy, just for my own personal nostalgia I am going to make believe you are restoring the one I used to use. And will patiently wait to see it become new again. Farm stuff brings back a ton of memories. Back in 58 while I was stationed at Loring up in Caribou, like all young married military did not have a pot to pee in. Lived on the Tibideau family farm for free just for milking the 3 cows (by hand 7 days) and a ½ day Saturdays doing what ever was going on. Old Ali got a kick out of a "New Yorker" knowing how to run tractors, so did I some plowing, discing and spay work. He had a Allis Chalmers and a big IH and a barn full of attachments to do his potato farm.