Any suggestions for power on a 16' V drive?

[G60outlaw]

I have recently purchased a little 60's ski boat. It's 16' V drive hull. Now it comes without power but was originally equipped w/ a V8, I think it may have been a 289 (not for sure). Now since I have this little wonder, I have to repower it. Any suggestions? My intentions are to have a little ski boat that I can tow with my Landcruiser and use without much hassle. I also would like to ski the day on $20 of gas (well for as reasonalbe as possible) yet be able to pull up a full size adult. What kind of power do you think would best suit this type of hull? Any recommendations? Thanks!

[Gearhead99]

Sounds to me like you need a V-8 too. Is there a transmission or anything like that still in boat??

If it was set up for a Ford, a 302 should do OK on the low end or a 351W for better economy. If it's a Chevy 350 or a 307.

My $.02

[FlatRacer, aka BarrelBack]

Is it a flatbottom or a V-bottom? Does it have cavitation plates and are they adjustable from inside the boat? Being that it's 16' and not 18' I'm going to guess that you'd be happier with a small block V8 for the application you have in mind. Do you know what brand it is? What brand of v-drive does it have? What prop came with it? I can better answer you questions if I have a better idea of what you have.

Eric :)

[MOP]

I think you need a small block, big block seems even heavier in a 16. Go for either 350 SBC or 351 SBF. Parts availabilty is great for these motors. I lean toward the SB Fords, the do marinize a little better for salt use. The Chevy in salt should have closed cooling You can get either to do a good job for you. It gets back to the Ford V Chevy thing also, ask anyone who runs either. The both swear great so you can't lose with two winners.

[G60outlaw]

Thank you for all the responses so far. I got some info on the boat from the previous owner. He tells me that it is a 1962 16' Langmar(?). It originally sported a 322 cid Buick engine. The hull is a V drive with no V drive tranny or such. I have a good line on a Borg Warner 72 series with 1:1 hooked up to a Walter 1:1 V drive. The engine at this point is optional. The hull itself is a V Bottom with a shallow V at the transom. No cavitation plates and no prop. So it's pretty wide open on set up, any suggestions?

[harbormaster]

Outlaw,
Are you sure even want this boat? Fom what you have said, it seems that all you are getting is a hull. Do you want to be a mechanic or the skipper of your own boat? Just curious.

[G60outlaw]

Actually the boat is exactly what I wanted. I've never had a V drive before and want to learn what makes them tick. I already have another boat but it does not fit the role ski boat very well and I can't tow it without my one ton. So this boat/hull fits the niche very nicely. It was bought on the intentions of being my first V drive project as I already rebuilt a few I/O boats. I figure this boat is better than any Bayliner "ski" model. I wish it were a Donzi but they are pretty hard to find in these neck of the woods. Well if nothing else I can sell the trailer it came on for more than I ever bought the package for. Thanks for your concern though!

One last thing anybody have any experience with marine Chrysler products namely the 318 or 360 motors?

[Rootsy]

i happen to have an early 70's Invader V-drive with a 360 Super Bee III motor in it... boat is going to get parted out or sold eventually when i find time to do it. :rolleyes: it isn't rotten or destroyed but it has seen better days... it ran well when i used it a bit years back, bout 50ish or so on a good day... Has a paragon drive/transmisson - 1:1 ratio i believe... i also have a velvet drive sittin around somewhere... don't know the exact model or ratio but i can look if anyone is interested, it isn't a V-drive setup.

[FlatRacer, aka BarrelBack]

Hmmm....The name Langmar doesn't ring any bells. And I thought I knew a lot about ski boats (the original California SK style ski boats, not these new tournament tugs). Since the name doesn't sound familiar, I'm gonna guess it was a custom built (homebuilt?) or very low production brand. Is it a glass hull from a mold or is it a plywood hull glassed over?
I'm a little unclear as to whether it came without a v-drive, or did the Walter you mentioned come with it. Is the engine meant to be exposed or under a hatch behind the seats?
Sounds to me like a small block is what you want. Something around 300 hp with low compression should pull any skier without a problem.
Being that it has no plates, I suggest you install the motor on a rail type mount so that you can move it fore and aft to find the correct weight distribution (that is of course if you have the room) before you go to the expense of adding plate hardware.
Can you post a picture of it?
Another good source of info is www.hotboat.net (http://www.hotboat.net) Go to the v-drive forum.

Eric :D

[G60outlaw]

Thanks Flat Racer and Jamie for the info, it has been helpful. Jamie if you part the boat, please let me know as I may be interested in some of the parts, namely exhaust manifolds.

I finally picked up the hull after a little vacation. I bought the matchng trailer as well. The trailer towed flawlessly for the 600 mile return trip. Not bad considering it's a 40 year old trailer (1962 on the trailer title).

I also was able to talk to the previous owner as well and learned a few things about the boat which I wanted to see if you could help me out, Flat Racer. The boat was completely stripped of everything but some of the stuff was to be re-bedded. So I got the dual fins (don't know what they are called), shaft strut and shaft log but no shaft. Most of the stuff I got with he boat said Hall Craft which I assume was a v drive hardware manufacturer. The title stated the boat was manufactured by Lungmar. The boat pretty much was bought new in 1960 by a Porsche mechanic in Southern Oregon. The boat was passed down to the son which was passed down to the grandson. The time the grandson had the boat he blew up the motor and then sold it without letting his family know. The guy I bought from resold the boat to the family again which in turn sold it back to him 6 months later. The boat then sat in a shop just out of Grant's Pass Oregon for 4 years. That's until I picked it up just recently.

Talking to the previous owners, the boat bought originally with a 322 Buick motor that had dual 4 barrels on a Offenhauser intake and various other bits. The engine was exposed and the open exhaust routed through the transom, the old engine must of been loud. The V drive unit was a 15 degree Halibrand. All the hardware for the Vdrive that I received was cast with the Hall Craft name in it. The prop shaft is 1". The hull appeared not to have any trim tabs or cavitation plate. The boat was the local hot rod on the lakes through the 60' s and part of the 70's. It has a flat bottom at the transom. The profile of the boat is a lot like the 60's Howard boats I have seen on Hotboat.net (Thanks by the way, Flat Racer). The gunwales tend the curl in at the transom with a curved back end. It's a nice classic look and I'll have to round up some photos when I get a chance. The boat itself was pulled from a mold and looks like it was well constructed as the gel coat is in good shape and there were no stress marks or rotted wood throughout the boat.

Now I have a few questions because the boat was in such nice shape is there any "classic" value to the boat? What I mean is would it be a shame to glass up the open exhaust cutouts and start mounting something other can classic power (by classic power I mean a nice 289,flathead or even a 340)? I wouldn't want to destroy a "classic" boat. Or is the boat sufficiently obscure brand of boat, that I would not have to worry about destroying the NOS look of it? If so I may actually spend the money and find another Casle or Halibrand V drive. Then buid a nice chrysler 340 for it (I have a block). If not then I may go with what I have for power, either 1987 7.4L merc magnum (330 hp) that was yanked from my dad's boat (maybe to heavy) or a BMW marine 6 cyl motor that I am modifying to run off computer programmable fuel injection (yeah I know but the engine didn't cost me anything and only had 300 hrs) with a walter 2:1 V drive. Any help would be appreciated and again thanks to those who have responded!

[HyperDonzi]

289 is what we have in the baja (i think, 4.3l)
good fuel economy since yours is lighter, better gas mileage.

by the way, outlaw in your name is that a baja outlaw?

[FlatRacer, aka BarrelBack]

Okay, here's the deal: Your determining factor for engine choice is going to be the availability of wet log (exhaust) manifolds. You don't want to go with over the transom exhaust or headers because they're too loud, and it's just not a raceboat. If you already have a 340, use it, IF you can find a set of aluminum wet logs for it. I say aluminum for two reasons, first is the weight savings, second is the exposed engine. A polished aluminum intake and exhaust is what you want here to look cool and stay with the period theme.
Forget using a foreign car engine. They don't have enough low speed torque to be effective in a boat, and you won't find a wet exhaust for it.
Also, I'd shy away from the big block. Your boat doesn't have plates and at 16' it's a little on the short side for that much power. Your boat was designed to be balanced with a small block V8. A big block would put too much weight in the stern and make it porpoise, thus making it neccessary to add adjustable plates and a foot overide etc., etc. That's a can of worms you don't want to open for this boat. Let's just keep it simple. You'll be much happier.
In all likelihood, once you install a small block, your boat will handle fine, but just in case, I suggest again mounting the motor on a rail mount, like you'd see in a drag boat, so you can move the motor fore and aft to find the optimum balance. Click on http://free.hotboat.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000763 for a pic of what I'm talking about. To facilitate this, your driveshaft between the motor and the v-drive should be a slip yoke style.
Does your boat have a bulkhead between the rear seat and the engine compartment? A lot of the early ski boats did. Post a picture of it as soon as you can. I'd love to see it.
Oh yeah, have a prop shaft made from Aquamet 22. Don't even mess with anything else.
Let me know how it comes along.

Eric :cool:

[HyperDonzi]

on the balancing, for a rough estimate, the cg on a v style hull is about 29% from the transom.
good luck

[Rootsy]

hyper,

the 289 is a 60's era ford small block, the forerunner of the 302 or 5.0L. the blocks are the same but the crankshaft / rod combination differs... your 4.3 is actually 262 cu-in and manufactured by general motors... figure 61 cu-in / litre to do conversions.

[HyperDonzi]

jamie, i always thought it was around 260 and someone who seems knowlegable on engines said it was a 289. and lastnight i also learned it is a gm.

[Rootsy]

Hyper,

4.3 Litres x 61 ci / Litre = 262.3 ci....

in the early 60's ford started with the 260 after the Y-block motors were discontinued and then introduced the 289 in mid 63 for the 64 model year vehicles.

sooo the sbf family and evolution is something like this in order of introduction... 260 , 289, 302, 351 W, boss 302, 255... and 1985 was the introduction of the 5.0L (302 w/ roller camshaft)

the sbc family consists of somethgin along these lines with order of introduction beginning in the early to mid 50's

265, 283, 327, 350, 302(Z28), 400, 307, 305 and the 4.3 V6

[HyperDonzi]

jamie, a few more q's for you.
a guy with a fountain here says he has 900+hp out of a vette block (ls-1?) naturally aspirated. is it possible?
And where is the cut off between small block and big block? i would guess somewhere around 350ci.

[G60outlaw]

Thanks for the responses so far, especially Flat Racer and HyperBaja. Sorry to say HyperBaja but Outlaw in my name does not refer to Baja Outlaw (I wish it did) but more to my car/engine and my driving style (long story).
Anyhow I'll take a stab at this Chevy small block/big block seperation which is around the 400 c.i. mark. But that's not a hard and fast rule as the 454 and 502 started out as 396 c.i. big block. The differnece lies in the years (and journal size) as the 396 big block was a late 60's block (I think) and the 400 small block was a late mid to late 70's block. The 400 small block didn't have a very good reputation as it over heated a lot because of the lack center cooling passages between the center 2 pistons. The small block 400 are rare nowadays as they either were tossed for a 350 when they melted or their cranks were yanked and dropped into a 350 block to make a 383 stroker small block. So depending on the year of the block 400 c.i. is the break point for chevy small block and big block.
As for the 900 hp LS-1 natural aspirated engine, I would doubt it without a dyno sheet. Do give you an idea, Car Craft magazine just recently built a 780 hp 7.4L with a super charger and that was considered pretty good power for that combo. So a natural aspirated 900 hp would be hard to believe unless it's built to the nads. But I guess anyhting is possible.
The photos of my little wonder ski boat are coming and I'll post them as soon as I could find a scanner. The engine options are not getting easier as I have just picked up a Chrysler 383 w/ 727 tranny with about 60,000 miles from a buddy's '68 Newport. The worst part is that I have found some cheap Chrysler Big block wet logs as well. Hmmm now I really have to think about this!

PS by the way Hyper a 4.3L or 262 V6 was designed by lopping off two cylinders on a 350 block.

[HyperDonzi]

thanks for the info outlaw and jamie, big/small seperation is lot more complicated than i thought! the guy with the 900 hp ls-1 fountain says mid 90's, he tore out 4 bravo drives the first year he had it, and the dyno he used only went to 900hp. and he was over it. i highly doubt it.

[G60outlaw]

Hye I finally was able to scan some pics of my boat in question after buying a scanner. Here goes:
http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/shrek/16langmarbow.jpg

[FlatRacer, aka BarrelBack]

Sorry dude, picture didn't post.

[HyperDonzi]

its there, ive been having pc problems lately where pics wont work and 50% of the time i try to go to a site i get forwarded to a adult entertainment search engine.

[G60outlaw]

In case the picture above does not show up, here are the links:

http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/shrek/16langmarbow.jpg

and

http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/shrek/16langmartransom.jpg

I have found out a little more about the boat. It's a Biesmeyer or Pierson copy of their 1st V drive ski boat. I have located another Halibrand V drive unit for the boat which I hope to purchase and use. As for the engine choice I am still not sure but I do believe it will be dictated by which aluminum wet log exhaust I am able to pick up for reasonable. As for a transmission to hook up to the V drive, I believe that I am going with the appropriate automatic tranny for the engine as the lower 2nd gear may help out with pulling the bigger skiers out of the hole. The funny thing is that I have found some reasonable wet logs for a Big block Chrysler and a friend offered me a pristine 383 w/ 727 with 60K miles on it. I am still pondering if this would be to big of a package in my boat. Any suggestions? Thanks again both Flatracer and Baja!

[FlatRacer, aka BarrelBack]

G60 Outlaw:

Nix the automatic tranny idea. It's too heavy and it will rob too much power. If you want reverse, pick up a used velvet drive.(Install it on the engine if you can locate the proper bellhousing for that block. If not, you can mount it right to the stringers with plates just like on the engine and V-drive).
That boat with a small block will have no problem pulling up even the heaviest of skiers. THIS, I GUARANTEE!!! For sake of comparison, I'll tell you about a friend's 16' homemade flat with a stock nothing-special 396. We wanted to see how many people we could get behind the boat at once. We ran out of volunteers at six, but it pulled all of us out, on slalom skis!
As for engine choice, it would be neat to have something retro like a 401 nailhead Buick, or even a flathead Ford, but for reasons of practicality (easy to find parts for, saves your sanity, etc.), I'd go with a small block Chevy. You want to put something in there that won't be too heavy, and I think big block Chryslers are among the heaviest. The lightest big blocks around are the Buicks, but I never saw any log manifolds for them. My advice is to stick with a small block American V8 of your favorite flavor. :D

Eric :)

P.S. pics still don't work. The links lead to a blank page with the angelfire logo in the upper left corner. Why don't you upload the pics to this site. Scott, the harbormaster will help you.

[G60outlaw]

Hey Eric,
Thanks for the heads up about the photos, so I did what you said, so hopefully these work:

http://donzi.net/photos/ACFD49.jpg

and

http://donzi.net/photos/16langmartransom.jpg

As for the 383, yeah you are right about the weight, I was just chomping at the bit to use this motor. I do believe that I have found some small block Chevy aluminum exhaust log. I have had some good luck with marine 350's in my past boats so it couldn't hurt on this one. But I would really love to get my hands on some Chrysler small block exhaust logs as it would be all over then!

Thanks again Eric!

-Rob

[FlatRacer, aka BarrelBack]

WELL, ALL..FRIGGIN'..RIGHT!!! Very kool nostalgia piece! :cool:
That hull would look so kool behind a '57 Nomad or a big mid '60s convertible.
I'm envisioning it with lots of chrome and polished aluminum. Whatever you do, don't glitz it up with modern accessories (pop up cleats, hide-away bow light, etc.) Just leave it the way it is.
Yes, it looks like a bubble-tail Biesemeyer. Could have been splashed form one or it could've come from the original mold. I don't know the history of the early boats. Rusty very well may have sold the mold to your "Langmar" person. Maybe someone on the Hot Boat boards knows more about the early history of Rusty Biesemeyer and who ended up with which molds.
Definitely, a SBC for ease of maintainence and reliability, and a velvet drive for maneuverability. Maybe something a little exotic in the carb dept. to spice up the style, maybe six Strombergs, or a set of Webers eek! Hmm.....

Eric :)

[FlatRacer, aka BarrelBack]

I knew I had this somewhere. I just found it again. Check this out:
http://www.v-driveboat.com/offsite.php?to=http://www.u.arizona.edu/~dgalbrai/classicboat/classi~1.htm
You're welcome. :D
Eric

[Racin'Craft440]

That definitely looks like an old Biesesmeyer.

I have an old flattie that is Mopar powered. There is not much out there with smallblock Mopars in them. I've seen 1 jet boat in 2 years with Harden Marine log manifolds on it. And a Sutphen that had a 360, but don't know what the brand of log manifolds were.

Big block Mopar log manifolds/bellhousing/front motor plate are still available from Glenwood Marine.

A BB Wedge is roughly 100 lbs heavier than a smallblock. It is far lighter than a Chevy/Ford/Pontiac/Olds. If you added aluminum heads & water pump housing it might get the weight down to a neglible level. Take a look at that motor closely and it is basically a big version of the Chevy smallblock with the distributor/oil pump in the front.

If you decide not to go with the Mopar BB wedge, I would make it worth your while if you forwarded info on those log manifolds. I blew a core plug out the side of my block and no water went to my manifolds, which created a big 1" X 3" hole in 1 of them.

[RH]

Outlaw, great project boat with some neat lines! I had an old Penn Yan tunnel drive boat for our lake ride. It had a 318 Chyrsler in it with bad exhaust manifolds. I bought new logs from Osco from an ad in Boating magazine. As I recall, they were not that expensive and worked fine. If you have a Chrysler small block and the only thing is what you are missing is the manifolds, that would not be too hard. There was a guy from your coast by the name of Fred Wickens who built alot of that style of boats out of wood. He has since passed away, but I read an article in Classic Boating a few years back about him. Have fun with that ride, it will be a neat project!
RH

[Racin'Craft440]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Osco manifolds would be cast iron pieces, right? They are regular repro replacement stuff for cruisers and such.

I haven't seen much available in aluminum like what Glenwood sells or the old Nicson/Edelbrock/Harden stuff.

[RH]

Forgive me on that point, as they sat underneath the dog house out of sight! They would not look too pretty sittin out in the open.
RH