how much damage have I done?

[clayman]

Ok, I had some time today to try and figure out why my engine got real hot on monday. I realized that the thermostat was in the wrong place, and was 160 Degree. It was between the intake manifold and the thermostat manifold, rather than in between the thermostat manifold and the top cap. So I got that straight, and moved on to installing the silver advance bushing on my MSD pro Billit distributor to get the 32 degrees total advance on the timing. I am hoping this is where my lost rpm has been hiding. But, here is where I messed up. I had the cap off and resting on the oil sender. I decided to make installing the bushing easier by rotating the distributor 180 degrees. I intended to do this my simply turning the motor over a bit. Well, I turning the key and the motor went "BANG", then the starter made really bad noises anytime I tried to start it after. I pulled the starter and the cast part that wraps around the one side with the pinion sleeve completly broke off. I took it to a marine store and the guy ask me right away if I was playing with the distributor. I told him the story and he said that the cap shorted on the oil sender and fired a cylinder or too at the wrong time, which turned the motor backwards which broke the starter. ( I guess I am not the first person to do this) So I put in a new starter, and turned it over, it turns over , but not very easily, only a few times then stalls, and makes noises like it is straining, and the engine will not fire. So, Did I smoke my new MSD brain, the coil, I was by myself, so I didn't really check to see if I was getting spark, but the motor always started right up before. I didn't want to crank it too much, in case I was doing more damage. Could the run backwards thing have damaged internal parts on the engine? Pushrods, or something?

Any advice would be appreciated,
James

[MOP]

Check to see if your flywheel over rode its teeth, thats very common when the nose breaks. Does it turn over nice for 1/2 second then fetch and let go again like a tough spot? If the teeth did get buggered you will have to pull the engine. Theres a chance you can dress it down, but inspect it carefully, if a tooth lets go the whole thing starts all over again.

[clayman]

Could the whole run-backwards thing hurt/bent/or otherwise damaged any internal components of the engine? Also, could this have shorted or fried my Msd system? I am heading to my friend house today where my boat is, and and going to investigate it further.
James

[HyperDonzi]

im pretty sure that internals are fine running backwards. ignition is advanced quite a bit though.

[Moody Blu']

I did the same thing with my ford, but I didint blow the starter.
hopefully youll be fine

[clayman]

Ok, I had some time to work on the boat today, and I pulled the #1 plug to see if it was getting spark and the water came a runnin! I pulled all the plugs and they all had water in them. number 3 and 5 having the most. apparently when it overheated, and dieseled, it sucked in water from running backwards. That really explains the broken starter. I drained the cylinders, and installed new plugs, and it fired up. yeah! I didn't run it though, I ran out of time. Tomorrow I will change the oil, and run it with the ear muffs in the driveway. Funny all the little things we learn along the way. The mechanic at the marina told me to never let the engine diesel, if it starts to, to turn the key on and run it til the idle smooths out, then shut it down.

[Moody Blu']

i think you should do this.

buy that cheap walmart oil, tech 2000 or whatever it is,and then change the oil AGAIN with good oil,so you sort of FLUSH the motor of any water..

I wouldnt start the motor until you change the oil, you could ruin your main bearings if theres no lube.......

drain it.....
fill her up with fresh oil....and filter......
start her up........
warm her up....
make sure everything is in good order..while running)

shut her down.......
change the oil......
change the filter.....
throw her in the water......

[Rootsy]

Clayman,

i hope it turned backwards and sucked in water... i've twice witnessed sbc's get hot and warp cylinder heads, they then blew head gaskets and sucked the cylinders full of water... we did the flush fill flush fill oil thing and finally started it up.. promptly sucked the cylinders full again... and it was then that i tore em down and found in one case warped cylinder heads with 5 holes leaking and on the other 7 holes suckin in water through the head gaskets... how amazing is that????

only thing i am trying to stress is to be careful when you attempt to fire it.. i don't want you to bend rods or anything like that if you have done anything not visible when you got her hot... frown

[HyperDonzi]

moody blu' that is what you have to do if a boat sinks (known from experience)

[Forrest]

Check it out really good. Not to put a scare in you, but I bent a connecting rod in a 302 Ford marine engine (not mine) because of water getting into a cylinder and then cranking the starter. It still ran after that, but not too well. You may be lucky to have gotten water in most of the cylinders as opposed to just one, which didn't allow the engine to turn at all. Something has got to give an its not going to be the water. In your case it looks like it was the starter housing and hopefully not something internal.

Best of luck!

[Steven Cohn]

I've experienced hydrostatic lock-up in my starboard engine when replacing the exhaust risers and elbows. I removed the spark plugs and bumped the motor over w/a remote switch. Unfortunately, I was standing in the wrong place. A stream of water the diameter of a Champion spark plug w/65 psi hit me in the left testicle. The pain was tremendous. It was worse than when I amputated my fingure in a drill press. I walked very gingerly for the following three days. My advise: BE CAREFULL!

[Moody Blu']

LOL steve that sounded funnny! I bet it hurt though.

EDIT* clayman, It seems you need to do a compression check, to see if in fact your heads are warped.....

I have seen sbc heads and they definately do not have much mass to them, which inherently makes them prone to warping, if in fact that is your problem....
I hope not...

[Rootsy]

moody,

might wanna read that again... or are ya referring to james as jamie??? they were not my heads... this was a decade ago in my early college years when i was working as a mechanic... trust me.. they were warped, both sets, as well as a couple of cracked combustion chambers on the omc... one was a merc the other an OMC, both 5.7L... the merc got so hot it melted the little plastic checkballs in the hoses running to the exhaust manifolds. i still til this day don't understand how they didn't manage to seize the pistons in the bores... and yes later chevrolet castings are light and prone to warping and cracking, especially the 041's and some of the other 70's and early 80's castings...

i've also heard that the vortec cylinder heads are prone to cracking due to lightweight casting techniques but i have yet to witness it.

AND

my cylinder heads are just fine and dandy dude... and happy as can be... both sets wink and one is up for adoption :D

[Moody Blu']

I edited the previous post, thanks for catching that jamie.

it sounds like clayman needs to do a comp test to avoid the risk of bending a rod. it wont hurt anything and the test should trouble shoot for a leaky headgasket....

regardless if the boat sucked water in or sunk you should still fill flush fill flush fill.

[MOP]

Ok! Clayman what did you find? Don't keep us in the dark!

[MOP]

Something you might want to try this after you cure the problem and get it running, use any good dish detergent about a cup full in the oil cheap stuff to flush with. Run it on a hose so you can control the flow hence the temp run it about an hour at 180 this will cook any residue water out. I had a guy change his oil three times after he had wet inerds, then go for a good run and the valve covers were all milky inside. I put Simple green in it was handy, ran the boat about two hours, I changed the oil and filter, the owner came back a little later in the season and the valve covers were clean no milky look.

[clayman]

Ok, I am back home safe from my month long trip. No tire blowouts, or any other road stories thank god. I pulled both heads off, and the #3 cylinder was full of water, and 2,4,6,8 were full of water. Both number 3 and 6 have a nice crack on the top and bottom of the head around the exhaust valve. SO I would guess that the starboard head is warped since every cylinder had water, and the port head just cracked. My neighbor has a set of reworked auto heads with the bigger valves that I think I can pick up from him cheap, since he is a Hemi guy, he really has no use for them anyway. Any difference between auto and marine heads? I should have it all back together on Sunday.
James

[MOP]

While the heads are off it would be a good idea to check the deck height. It is a good practice any time there is any possibility you may have hydrauliced it with water.

[MOP]

Hi was reading the initial post, you mentioned a 160 thermostat. That s the right one for raw water cooling running in salt. If you run only in frsh go up to a reagular car temp one, maybe 180 they do run a little better when they run hotter.

[clayman]

Ok, M.O.P. you have really confused me now, because the book says to use only a 140 Degree thermostat? What is the optimal range the engine should run in? Doesn't the themostat stay closed until it begins to reach the 140 mark, then open fully around 160, and stay open pretty much the rest of the time you are running the boat, allowing fresh water to continually run through and cool the engine? I thought the thermostat was really to allow rapid warm up, and then keep it warm in the case of long idles etc. I want to make sure I have this straight be fore I put on these new heads. P.s., I never run in salt water, only fresh inland lakes, and brackish st.Johns river.
James

[HyperDonzi]

wasnt there a big insurance debate on here about marine and auto heads around 9 or 10 months back? if i remember correctly, marine heads do have holes so that the water can flow through them. i have no idea where these holes are...

[MOP]

Yes to the lower marked temp om stat, full open at 160. We used 163 melt sticks to check temp, now they shoot it with a temp gun.

[MOP]

On the cylinder head issue, I think that if it was said that there is a difference for marine or automotive someone was blowing smoke where the sun don't shine. If that were true I have ruined tons of motors. The gaskets regulate the flow for temperature consistancey the length of the block and head, remember water comes and goes from the front of the block it must be regulated internally by the head gaskets. Water flows from the the pump to the block around the cylinders up through the heads gaskets and out the thermostat housing to the exhaust

[clayman]

Well, I am happy to report that the boat is up and running better than ever. I put these newly redone heads on and it seems to be running great. We think they are 1969 corvette heads(or so my neighbor was told) But they have new stainless valves, and they are bigger than the old ones. One question thought, I am running stock stamped rocker arms, and I adjusted them according to the book, i.e. back off until lash is felt on the push rod, then tighten until no lash is felt, then turn one full turn. well this wasn't letting the valves close all of the way and caused a great deal work trying to figure out way it wouldn't start. I pulled the valve covers and redid the valves- I tightened until no lash was felt, but did not turn the extra full turn, and it fired right up. what gives? Also could my new tach be off? It sure seems to be running wot, but my new tach reads about 4200rpm, it used to turn 5000 with the old tach. I might reinstall the old one to today to compare.
James
http://www.donzi.net/photos/jspiroff56.jpg

[Rootsy]

proper procedure for adjusting valves for a sbc straight from crane cams...

http://64.90.9.168/cranecams/pdf/151g.pdf