View Full Version : LACK of chinewalk....
Rootsy
06-26-2002, 06:24 PM
soooo the new prop arrived tonight.. something my twisted mind somehow convinced my wallet to buy cause it just HAD to help the 16...
well somehow.. someway it did! maybe not the fastest prop for the boat... but 63.5 mph in a 16 classic with a big honkin sbc in the rear end and absolutely NO chinewalk more than makes up for it! that is right NO CHINEWALK... she was trimmed out, donno exactly how far but more than a little... the hull was light and a tad squirrly but nothing that even concerned me unlike all my of my other props... heck the bow wasn't nearly as high, she just felt so much more solid... waves were approaching 1 foot running parallel to 45 to the bow... jetski wakes to be exact... i was watchin the tach get closer to 5000 rpm all of the time... highest she reached was 4900 rpm. though and it has to be mid to upper 80's plus the humidity.. i could only spin the 21 mirage 4800 on a good day... at first i thought it was too much prop.. wound RIGHT up to 4500 then stood still.. once i began to trim she moved on up... Man i can't wait to get this thing on glass... anyway i figured i'd let all the 16 owners who may be interested for whatever reason... i mean if you can spin it it has to be worth a shot! i have yet to look at the midrange but i feel she may be slipping a bit more than something with more diameter... but who the heck knows til you actually clock it
btw... it's a Mercury Quicksilver QS2000 13 3/4 x 23... stock out of the box...
they do make a 13 7/8 x 21
HECK YEAH I'M PUMPED!
http://www.donzi.net/photos/jaroot004.jpg
G - FORCE 88
06-26-2002, 06:27 PM
coool!! what was this prop cleaver or like a Mirage? WOuld be interesting to hear. Considering a Cleacer for my 22. :D :cool:
boldts
06-26-2002, 06:47 PM
Congratulations! Nothing like a prop that meets your expectations the first time you try it. I've spoken to a few folks that suggest the same thing be done with a 22 Classic to settle the boat down. They run less diameter with more pitch and not only stop the chine walking, but also gain a few MPH over the Mirages.
G - FORCE 88
06-26-2002, 07:04 PM
I would like the same deal for my 22 what do you recomend? I would like to settle the boat and make some more speed in the meantime. Let me know, I am realy curious.
Jon :D
Jamie,
Are you so excited that you are keeping your 16? I kinda thought you may put in a bid on the eBay 22 over in Davison, MI. Or are looking for a project 18...inquiring minds want to know!
Jammie, is this the prop you got from Cabella's ?
Sam
Rootsy
06-26-2002, 07:44 PM
Sam,
yes this is the prop i got from cabelas... dundee is out of em the catalog has em on backorder with no delivery date i managed to find one at the owatonna store in minnesota...
Tony,
think i am gonna hang onto the 16 for now... i am looking for a project 18 to add to my collection.. i have to catch up with allard ya know... once that is finished i may consider parting with the 16... i just can't do it right now... i love my little baby too much.. guess i am attached... i thought i could do it for about 4 days... but the biggest reason for even wanting to part with is was the chinewalking control issue... the 22 is too much boat for what i do and where i boat at this time.. maybe in the future...
tantan,
i am the WRONG person to talk to about the 22... i've never even ridden in one. the QS2000 is designed for light fast hulls with a lot of power such as bassboats and well i guess our small classics, the 16's particularly...so it doesn't generate the bow lift like a mirage... it is a round eared prop... i should have a cleaver or two to try by the weekend though...
mattyboy
06-26-2002, 08:38 PM
Jamie ,
that's good news, I'm in the prop testing stages now
68 16 w 351w volvo 250 spinning a 14 1/2 x 21 ss spinelli
with alot of rake, boat jumps on plane instantly and has neck breaking excelleration, but top end stinks high 40's low 50's and revs to high. just sent a 15 x 25 michigan round ear out for rework
hopefully it will help the top end and bring down the rev's
Isn't 13 3/4 alittle small or is that what the merc's run
would love low sixties
Matt
Matt, I'm running a 13 3/4 X 22 Turbo on my 350/16. I tried three other props all larger dia and this one is the best so far. Currently I run 63-64 @ 48-4900 rpm.
Sam
Rootsy
06-26-2002, 08:56 PM
Matt,
to be honest i never gave much thought to prop diameter before til i started really thinking about what was going on... but from what I see... boats running our power are in the 22 and up class... actually i have not found a prop suggestion deal that lists my hp to weight ratio which is something like 7 lbs/hp or more specifically my length / hp ratio... all the props seem to be geared for larger boats and a broad range of boats in general... sort of a canned deal unless you find a prop maker that will work to customize a prop for you. heavier boats need more surface area on the prop to lift and resist slip, etc than a lighter streamlined hull. i mean the mirage will run well on a 35 fountain and we are runnin em on our classics... noticing this i figured i could go smaller and just pitch up, i mean there are bassboats that weigh almost what a 16 does and they run small diameter props on big honkin outboards.. so i figured what the heck.. i was really hoping to eliminate blade area and lift i didn't need as well as take some of the torque off of the drive which causes the chinewalk cause the 16's inner strakes seem to end about 6 feet from the stern whereas the 18's end about 2 feet... i am trying to figure out exactly why that is... i think this has at least a portion to do with how the 16's handle and get squirrly... nothing to ride on at speed.. not to mention way too much bowlift from most props... but these are just my observations... andi may be totally speaking out of my bunghole... so in summary...i was willin to give up some speed to gain stability... and i ended up gaining both... if i like this prop best of what i want to test i might send it to getlabbed and maybe tweak some pitch into it... but we shall see... i don't know if it'd pick me up anymore or not... i need to try a few other things first
Sam, I though the turbo's were either 14 1/4 for sterndrives or 13 1/4 for outboards....
Rootsy
06-27-2002, 07:11 PM
Outta Control in the 16, Episode II... Choppin Onions...
The first of the cleavers arrived tonight.. Used and slightly abused 14 3/4 x 21 mercury... few dings in the edge and a bent tip which i straightened fairly well... touched it up with the dremel and swapped the QS for the cleaver...
as it went... 80 degrees and kinda overcast.. no where near as much humidity as yesterday... breeze out of the west slight chop on the water.. boat comes out of the hole well... winds right up to 4600 without trim... boat is solid... start trimming and she picks up speed, watchin the gps first run nets 62.5 and it isn't too terrible to hold onto but more than the QS... second run into the wind doesn't net as much and i managed to launch her off the wake i left...which was way cool to the pontoon boat fishermen... btw if you trim past the sweet spot that cleaver looks like a itty bitty surface drive as she shoots the 10 foot roostertail... 3rd run, the lake was a bit wavy from my 2 previous passes (only a mile long or so)... wound her out and trimmed her up... rpms reach about 5050 rpm... and 63.5 mph, just before cuttin the throttle she is a real handful. i could keep her under control in the slop of my previous wake btu she was right on the ragged egde, and you are always fastest on the ragged edge.. musta gotten some air cause the gps hit 63.7 mph...
Episode III, get a bigger blade you idiot!!! will premier sometime early next week when the 14 1/2 x 23 cleaver arrives... i'll let ya know how she goes...
http://www.donzi.net/photos/jaroot007.jpg
smoothie
06-27-2002, 08:31 PM
Very interesting :cool: you are doing some fine R+D work Jamie,keep the data coming,Im very curious as to how the 23 cleaver is going to perform,BTW could you attach a bar chart with your results :D
Sweet little 16
06-27-2002, 09:20 PM
Jamie,
I would like to hear more, like you I am not looking for lift in my prop, but going smaller would seem to bring the rpm back up, my boat will turn 6g's no problem but at about 5700 the ass end
wants to be a plane! so I want to get as much grip as possible. that's why I was looking for something big
please keep us posted this is great info and us 16 guys gotta stick together, I would imagine the merc and the volvo have different characteristics
but mid 60's should be the norm
Matt
Rootsy
06-27-2002, 09:26 PM
whoa... what do you have under the hatch that you are spinning it 6K???? i take it that you have a volvo hangin off of the back... the cleaver ran fairly flat tonight...
Matt...what IS your engine/outdrive package? I have a fresh 302 Ford in my '67 16, doctored to put out about 300 hp, and I'm told that it is fine to wind it up to 5400 rpm's. It's the 35 year old Volvo AQ200 that I worry more about, though!
With limited options for props, I've got a 14 1/4 x 24 ss Volvo Ultra that gives me 58 mph at 5400 rpm's...but that's according to my speedo.
Good luck, Jamie, and keep us updated. I'd still like to drop in down in Coldwater, I'll let you know if it materializes.
mattyboy
06-27-2002, 09:48 PM
Jamie,
sorry the puter was stiil logged on as my wife when I replied, all she knows is I'm going too fast!
the boat being as old as it is has no rev limiter and was just rebuilt about 2 yrs ago it is an animal, 10:1 351 holman moody, it is spinning a 14 1/2 21 at 6g's I figure a 15 x25 would do it!
on a volvo 250
Matt
It's really me this time
Rootsy
06-27-2002, 09:49 PM
let me know tony, but fi you want to boat some weekend let me know and i'll see if i can free myself up and we could hit a lake or soemthing somewhere.. i'll bring the gps.. we can see just how pessimistic the speedo is :D
Digger
06-28-2002, 06:37 AM
Jamie, great posts, keep them coming. You pack lots of great useful info into them- thanks!
and congrats on the speed :D
mattyboy
06-28-2002, 11:34 AM
Tony,
the ultra is supposed to be a great prop,
and very hard to find.
Poodle thanks I'll look for a 14 1/2 25 should it be cupped or not?
I was gonna order a prop from spinnelli but I hear they are retiring :(
Matt
Rootsy
06-29-2002, 10:09 PM
ok smoothie... you asked for it... don't say i didn't warn ya... :D
http://www.donzi.net/photos/jaroo008.jpg
smoothie
07-07-2002, 05:48 PM
Jamie,
Thanks...I can see clearly now with the fine bar chart,but you are killing me,what about the 14 1/2 x 23 cleaver?BTW could you do the chart in metric for me,you know how the prints are these days :p
RedDog
07-07-2002, 10:20 PM
Your data is great - keep it up. Looking forward to completion of your chart with the next prop. The "picture" really boils the results down so that all can see what is really going on with your testing. Good reporting!
harbormaster
07-07-2002, 10:38 PM
Wow Jamie!!!
http://www.donzi.net/photos/saroot008.jpg
smoothie
07-08-2002, 08:26 AM
Very cleaver of you Harbormaster :D
robert t
07-08-2002, 09:44 AM
Hi Jamie, I was looking at your prop tests and have a few questions for you. First, I just pruchased a 1995 Classic 16 with the 302/Alpha One package. I have owned numerous boats over the years but never a performance boat. I finally got brave enough the other day to trim the boat out and try to achieve the highest speed. I had a gps with me and could only get 52.3mph..the speedo showed 57. The boat also walded back and forth laterally...Is this what you all call chine walk? Also, the boat likes to porpoise alot at 3,000rpm unless you trim nose down alot. The boat has trim tabs also. Your chart on those props, were they on a Classic 16? If they were, my boat must have the wrong prop,,I dont know whats on it now. I thought this boat/engine combo would easily get the speeds to the high 50's or low 60's, or is this normal speeds for this boat? Your help and anyone elses help would be greatly appreciated on these matters.
Thanks
Bob Tompkins
Kingwood, Tx
Greg K
07-08-2002, 09:47 AM
I believe Jamie has a 350 in his 16 and possibly some other mods...that get him up to that speed.
Rootsy
07-08-2002, 10:12 AM
Robert,
i believe your 302 should actually be a 305 chevy, havn't been able to get a merc that is a ford since the late 70's early 80's.
My boat is 1997 16 classic w/ 350, and out of the box it was good for 54 mph... my motor IS NOT STOCK.... i've replace the 2V with an aluminum intake and 4V holley which gave me a 4.5 mph gain, i've also replaced the valvetrain which puts me somewhere in the 290 - 300 hp @ prop which has so far given me a 5.3 mph gain since i saw 63.8 mph as of the morning of July 6. i am not absolutely sure but your motor should be somewhere around 220 @ prop. the 350 was rated at 210 but in reality is identical to the 250 hp 350...
problem with the 16's is the excessive bow lift and rearward position of the CG especially with a V8... the bottom lacking inner strakes that extend rearward such as the 18 classic causes excessive chinewalk (lateral movement from side to side) for the bottom has nothing to balance on and the torque on the sterndrive pushes the boat over on the port chine when you trim enough to get it up... the hull acts as a wedge in the water and really slows you down... the 18's run much flatter and are a lot more stable than the 16's. there has been much debate on the 16 stability and ability to run fast but low 50's is standard for a V8 powered 16... the 4.3's are a bit faster, 55 - 57 because of the loss of a few hundred pounds in the rear which moves the CG forward. my boat runs MUCH better with a full tank of gas...
my boat came equipped with a 14 x 19 mercury vengence prop.
Rootsy
07-08-2002, 11:08 AM
SOOON haaaaabamasta... veeeeery soon :D
robert t
07-08-2002, 07:30 PM
I just got back from taking the boat out by myself. The boat was full of fuel, myself as the only rider, and I got 55mph. My only question..the engine is rated at 4200-4600rpm, my engine was turning 4850rpm at wot..if I am correct, this will damage the engine..I think I need to re pitch the prop to a bigger pitch to reduce the rpms...Any help if I need to go this route or get a better prop!
Bob T.
4850 running solo is not to dicey 5000 is still Ok, most of the time your out there there will be more than one person aboard that should put you in your correct range. If you go up much you will loose some of your hole shot. Most of us will only stay up at top RPM for a short while.
Rootsy
07-08-2002, 08:21 PM
your WOT range is where your motor is supposed to be making peak HP, overshooting this mark won't hurt the motor but it won't do anything for you except stress things and burn more fuel... prop it to the upper limit - 4600 and you should be safe when fully loaded, likely in the 42 - 4400 range, stock i'd run 4400 rpm and with 3 people in the boat total i would see around 4200... as it sits right now i'd attempt to step up to a 21 pitch prop of nearly the same diameter... not a mirage, it has too great a diameter and will probably shave too many rpm's off. you won't see too much loss out of the hole, especially with as light a boat as the 16. i'm not much on slamming something hard out of the hole anyway (but i can pop it right out with ease if i want to), it puts a lot of stress on sterndrive internals. if you want to ski, you can just swap the prop back to get some more acceleration... if you can spin a 21 with say 7 - 8% slip @ 4600 you should see high 50's.
my valvetrain is not stock and is put together to handle fairly high sustained rpm's. it makes peak HP @ 5000 rpm so that is where i try to prop the boat to... mainly 4800 - 5000 is my targeted WOT... i do run my motor hard upon occasion... broke it in well at AOTH on the way back from connely bottom, that is for sure wink ... it hasnt missed a beat yet and i've probably put 25 hours on it this year already.
Rootsy
07-14-2002, 08:33 AM
14 1/2 x 23 Mercury Cleaver arrived last tuesday... the final chapter in prop testing for me at the moment. nice prop i managed to snag on ebay for 125 bucks... figured i'd need to do some work but it is spotless... it isn't polished but has more of a fine sanded / buffed surface and an HMM number stamped in the side above the Quicksilver P/N... here's how sunday mornings testing went...
boat is dead on E on the fuel gauge so control was a little on the light side... she was a handful and the boat is actually faster and rides a lot better with a full tank of fuel... think i might stick some weight in the nose to see if it helps level things out... more inner strake may help some also... anywho...
out of the hole as well as any other prop i've tried cept the 21 mirage which was a dog... Motor spools right up to 4500 rpm with trim all of the way in... 57.6 mph... trimming out the drive the nose comes up a little and you can feel the hull break free and she begins to really pick up speed. warm-up pass netted 62 mph, a bit disappointing...
2nd run into the rising sun the rpm's hit 4800... watching the gps climb past mid 64 mph before i ran out of lake and had to shut down... the max speed recording on the gps says 64.9 mph!!! i GUARANTEE i could have gotten 4900 or more and i would have surpassed 65.0 mph if i had another 1/2 mile to play... i really needed some weight fore in the boat... very loose but it was loose at 3000 rpm with the trim all of the way in so the weight thing says it all... but hey who can complain about 65 mph in a 16??? :)
in summary...
21 Mirage - 60.8 mph
21 Cleaver - 63.8 mph
23 QS2000 - 63.5 mph
23 Cleaver 64.9 mph
anyone want to buy a 14 3/4 x 21 Mercury cleaver, $165.00? 14 3/4 x 21 mirage $150.00? repairable 14 x 19 vengence $25.00 + shipping?
http://www.donzi.net/photos/jaroot014.jpg
here you go smoothie... :D (sorry no SI :p )
http://www.donzi.net/photos/jaroot013.jpg
oh yeah... this data will be worthless to me soon enough wink but hey i sure as hell have a good handle on controlling chinewalk now eek!
smoothie
07-14-2002, 08:53 PM
Thanks for the update Jamie,
Looks like you squeezed 3 more mile an hour out of her!!! I have to say 65 out of a 16 is doing pretty darn good.Thanks again for the data,I was thinking about replacing my cleaver before this topic was started. wink I guess I will keep my 25p cleaver and look for a 27p to play with. :D
Forrest
07-15-2002, 10:46 AM
A 3-blade cleaver has always worked best on my 302 Ford/Alpha SS powered '72 16.
Moody Blu'
07-15-2002, 12:29 PM
matty I emailed you...w egotta hook up this week.
I think your turning way to mush rpms for the drive and motor unless you got heavy spring sin the heads and roller rockers...but still thats to high for the volvo 250 form what big griz says..
ok I am starting to come to the conclusion that you need more pitch to make a volvo be even with a merc I/O
all the merc guys are hitting 60+
and us volvo guys are hitting 50+
not to kick chevies, but the ford have more torque so we should be able to turn a higher pitch prop then a merc (since we have more torque we can run more pitch and still get on plane)- the hard part-
then again you can rev out a chevy more so its a toss up..
the volvo ratio is definately at least a 2 pitch difference in terms of speed..... comapred to a merc I/O-- you guys follow that?
I know I should be in the 60+ range
would you guys agree with the speed difference or what?
oh and TONY, whens the last time you replaced the universals on that volvo drive?
if you havent replaced them you could risk grenading the whole drive if the universals blow out.
my drive was about 30 seconds away from blowing apart, thank god I rebuilt it...
TRU-JACK
07-15-2002, 03:22 PM
Great info Jamie. I just met an older guy locally who has a merc cleaver with the numbers 48-89802-21p.
It's a 21 pitch, is this the same numbers you had on your 21p? I'm running a stock 4.3 with thru hull in a 16' and have a mirage 23p and am spinning 4700rpm according to the tach. I don't have a gps so the speedo is questionable but is around mid 50's. Anyway i can pick up this cleaver cheap, and think it would be a cool spare or primary prop, but am unsure of the numbers. Any help is greatly appreciated.
thanks wink
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