Classic 22 Performance

[Pismo]

I have a 1996 22' Donzi Classic with a 502 Magnum MPI. It is absolutely stock and does 74.4 on GPS at just over 5000rpm, I am hitting the rev limiter at 5050 but just barely with a stock 25" Mirage Plus prop. Silent Choice open and trimmed well.

I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions regarding performance upgrades for this setup without getting into the heads/cam/block, etc.

I have read much about exhaust changes, intake changes with ignition/fuel pressure reg/reprogram ECU, labbed prop, etc.

Does anyone have experience with any of these. Would anyone recommend for or against any of these changes or anything else.

I hope other 22 owners will have some experience in this area. I look forward to hearing your input.


Thanks very much,

SL

[RICPAZ]

Have your prop lab-finished by Mercury Racing. It will give you a couple more MPH at wide open throttle.

-Rich

[TuxedoPk]

What are you looking for in the way of performance upgrade? Just top speed at WOT, or increases at the lower-mid range, handling, etc.?
Budget?

[Cuda]

I wouldn't mess with it. Maybe lab the prop. That's respectable speed already with turn key reliability. Once you get above 70 in a boat, it gets very expensive to go any faster.

[BigGrizzly]

Well the first thing I would do is try different props. Lab finishing is cool but I have a problem giving Merc or anyone another 150 to 300 dollars to fix a prop I spent 600 for!! Me I would try a Turbo ot a Solas prop. On my particular 22 The Turbo lightning is 3-5 mph faster than the merc labed bravoI and 4 faster than a labed Marage plus. what is funny is the labbed Mplus was only 1 mph faster than the standard marage plus. The speeds are all GPS indicated. My boat isn't stock but Tomahawk is and he has tried over 15 different props and his best is the Turbo one prop. If you go another route then the other options will coat over a $1600. And this will net abour 1->3 mph at best. I can tell you this that 78 MPH on the GPS will cost you alot of dollars on that boat-been there and done that. Don't even ask what 85+ cost!!

[MOP]

I got it from a very good source that Hill propeller designed the machine that Merc uses and does the same job for a lot less money. You may want to check that out.

"Correction Hale propeller"

[Pismo]

BigGrizzly...

Please tell me more about this Turbo prop for my 22. Was it labed? Similar pitch to the Mirage Plus??, would I still need a 25" even though I am getting to the rev limiter or do they run higher than a Mplus?

Thanks very much.

[Woodsy]

MOP...

Your source is wrong. That would be HALE Propellers in Saybrook, CT. Not Hill propellers. Randy Hale developed the Hale MRI system in use by all of the major prop shops including Merc Racing and Throttle Up, not sure but I think Houston prop has one too. Check the site out...

http://www.halepropeller.com/

Pismo..

Not too much can be done about your speed. Sounds like you have a pretty healthy motor. You are banging off the rev limiter, so I would go up in pitch a little. Labbing won't help you, because it will increase your RPM by a 200-300 RPM, and there is no room left there. I would suggest having your prop reworked to a 26, then seeing where your speed & RPM are at... then go from there. Running your motor at the rev limiter is NOT GOOD. You should be realistically running at 4800 - 4900 RPM at WOT.

Short of spending some serious $$ on your motor, you really aren't going to see ANY major speed increases. You could however bolt on an IMCO shorty for about $2500 or so and see an increas of about 3-5mph once you get it propped right.

Woodsy :D

[boldts]

I have to agree with Grizzly. He and Tomahawk talked me into trying a Turbo 1 on my 22 Classic. My boat went from 65.4 to 68.7 GPS just by adding this prop. The big key that makes the Turbo 1 run so well on the 22 hull is the smaller diameter. Turbo 1s are 14.25 diameter which really improves the handling because the prop is not what they call paddle wheeling causing the boat hull to want to chine walk and be very loose.

Your running a 25" MPlus and hitting the rev limiter. You need at least 1 to 2 more inches of pitch to get the boat engine back down into the safety zone like Woodsy said. With that being said and the Turbo 1 having less diameter, you may need as much as a 28" pitch Turbo 1. Maybe not, but it's better to try to much prop first. Get a good GPS run fully trimmed and record your RPMs at WOT. If the engine only turns 44 or 4500, simply send the Turbo 1 back to Turbo and ask for a 26" Turbo 1. You should be right on the money then and I think you too will see more speed at a very limited amount of money spent. The props from Turbo do not require labbing. What you get in the box is the best the prop can be made right from the start!

No, I don't work for Turbo, but believe me, I believe in their product on a 22 Classic. It will be the cheapest money you'll ever spend for speed and great handling.

Turbo Web Page (http://www.turbo-props.com/Index.htm)

[Pismo]

The Turbo 1 or the Turbo Lightning, which would you recommend? I see recommendations for both.


Thanks

[Greg K]

Turbo 1, I'd go with a 26"
Try Dan's (http://www.dansdiscountprops.com) for the best price.

[tmdog]

Dan's by far has the best price. Just give him a call. No, I don't work for Dan.

[Budman]

Dan's Prop in Michigan is by far the best for service and pricing. The best part is if your Turbo prop is not the proper one, you can return it for $25.

[RickR]

The Turbo is a good prop but only gave me .9 more MPH over the Mirage Plus on my 22 Classic w/454. The Turbo runs a little lose.

I prefer the Mirage Plus for rough conditions and spirited handling situations eek! .

[terry]

RickR, Amen!...thats right on.

[boldts]

I guess I'm still learning here. Interesting that you guys say the prop is loose. I'm only doing 69.9 with a 1.36 gear ratio Bravo 1 in back of a carbed 454MAG, but my Classic is rock solid in ruff water. I must admit, I've not run a Mirage Plus, probably because of the tremendous price difference and needing to lab to get the best performance out of it?

I also put a Hydromotive nose cone on the drive to go from 68 to the 69 MPH. So, anyone who says a nose cone under 70 MPH won't do anything for ya I think needs to do a little more research. Maybe those saying that just put the wrong type of cone on their drive. That 1 MPH cost me another $400 though since I wasn't going to chance putting it on crooked.

I don't dispute what you guys are saying because I know your some of the best in the Donzi performance game. All I can give you is my experience with the Turbo 1.

[RickR]

Bolts
The Turbo Vector's advertisment makes it sound similar to a Mirage Plus even though is is slightly smaller in diameter.

For offshore, more blade surface creates more stability, especially aft of the Center of Gravity.

Mabe we can get Chris to give us a more detailed explaination. :D

[Barry Phillips]

Pismo, thats great performance for stock 502, thats were it should be. Short of experimenting with props leave it alone, oneless the motor is low hours and you have deep pockets. If you want to spend some money try a Pro Charger just keep the boost at a resonable level. If you add another 5 to7 mph you should consider external hydraulic steering, larger tabs and a drive shower. Your stock Bravo is good for about 500hp. I have a 22 with a 496 Mag, 375hp with a 23" Marage Plus, it well do 70mph at 5000 rpm not confirmed. I wish I could barrow a Turbo 24, I would like to drop the rpms a little. ProCharger and Wipple market really nice kits for the 496 Mag and HO but the drive and the steering need to be considered. Frank put a ProCharger on a 22 ZX with a 502 and the boat ran in the 80s but I'm not what else he did.

SO-SLO

[Pismo]

Boldts,

Your 69.9mph sounds pretty good with a 454 Magnum Carb which is anywhere from 330hp at the crank if it the old 454/330 Mag to 350/365hp at the prop if it's newer. I am only turning 4.5mph more will a clean 415hp at the prop w/o nose cone and a stock Mplus prop.

A nose cone sounds good, I wondered if they helped much on the Bravo. They work well on Alphas if you are going fast enough but the Bravo is better designed out of the box.

Does anybody else have experience with nose coning a Bravo drive, does it help much and how does it affect the handling??

Thanks very much for all the info.

SL

[Darrell]

CMDA posted a thread about nosecones and at what speed they would benefit more MPH. The subject was titled "Nosecones" and he said the speed for a Bravo is @ 80mph.

Darrell

[boldts]

Oh no, I offended CDMA too? Let me add that putting the Hydro cone on my Bravo 1 probably resulted in more speed due to the additional trim I can run now. Less boat in the water usually equals more speed. Even running more trim, the boat is rock solid. No chine walking and no porposing. Porposing was the reason for the prop change in the first place. The boat came with a Mirage (not the plus) and porposed like crazy until you got her up to WOT speed. Then and only then would the bow settle down and fly straight. Didn't matter where the trim was either. Most of the time with that prop, the trim was full down or in and yes, the first thing checked was whether it was in fact working correctly.

I guess, every boat is a little different. Even where you are storing gear and how much gear you're carrying has an effect on the boats handling. All I know is that for under $800, my 22 Classic is a joy to drive now. It just needs some more HP to make use of the 1.36:1 gear wink

[fasttrucker]

When you first posted,you did ask about reprograming the ecu.I did that with arizona speed+ marine, when I added my stainless marine exhaust.You will be looking at speending a couple of g,s but the sound of a performance exhaust is well worth it.I went from 65 to 71mph in my 28zx.

[BigGrizzly]

Rick R T%om and I found the turbo ones habdle better and are faster than the marage Plus and we trien the same diameter and pitches on the same day and same boat. It is sure nice to have that many props to play with when your an engine manufacturer peopls are really nice to you. Right now I am using the lightning because I am too lazy to take the Turbo I from under the seat. besides the lightning has more pitch so it gives me alittle higher cruise, its a little slower but RPMs arn't as high. For me the extra mile or two doesn't matter. Besides I'm still testing different props so I need to stick to one base line. None of my are labbed the only props that were labed were BravoI and Marage Plus That I used for a comparison. I then desideed It was a waist of my money to go labbing.

One more thing every boat is different. Two 22 with similar set up and one may Like a different prop. Just try them and be your own judge

[catch 22]

OK, I have a 1998 22 classic with a 454mag mpi. I have a hydro 4 23 pitch (not sure of the diameter) The boat runs 68 mph at 5000rpm. I have a mirage plus also 23 pitch and it runs 70mph at 5000rpm. I have been trying turbos. The first one was a 23 pitch and I ran 68mph at 5100rpm and the second one I tried was a 24 pitch and I ran 69mph at 5000rpm. I just tried a 25 pitch and the boat ran 71mph at 4900rpm. Is this good or does anybody know if she has anymore left. All speeds are on gps. What do you guys think? Thanks Jim. :confused:

[boldts]

Catch22, looks like you've found the right prop in the Turbo 1, 25". It is the fastest at 71. It's just a matter now if you like the way the prop makes your boat handle. The 4 blade Hydro should be slower than a 3 blade, but I'll bet it is your best handling prop in ruff water. Your at 4900 with the 25". I would probably try a 26" just to see if I got more speed even though the engine was now turning 4750 to 4800 RPMs. It's up to you though.

On my boat, I'm turning a 22" Turbo 1 at 4800 due to my gearing. I could run a 21" to get the engine up to 5000, but I found the boat was faster running the 22" at 4800.

[RickR]

Grizz
Glad you are having good luck with the Turbo, some day I would like to try a Lightning.
My Turbo 1 (24x 15.25) will be my mid and late season lake prop (Thanks Tom Riggle!). Unless I go to the navigable waters where I run my river prop, a beat up old Mirage that has been rehubbed and rebladded eek! . It is GREAT for digging ditches and chopping wood.

My Mirage Pluses are for offshore. Normally the 21x 15.625 because cruising speed for me in the big puddle is usually less than 30 MPH :D

The Turbo 1 sure makes a nice rooster tail when you over trim :rolleyes:
http://www.donzi.net/photos/rryan39wot.jpg

Catch 22
You might be hitting the rev limiter which might be set at 5050 RPMs. At WOT check your tach. If it is bouncing (about 100rpms) you are against it.

[smoothie]

catch22,it sounds like your pretty much maxed out on the top end a mile or two between props is a good thing,the weather and chop will change it that much,now I would work on your cruising speed and rpm,sounds like the 25 is your best bet,I have some props for you to try if your lefthanded.

[CDMA]

I re-read my old nosecone post and I still agree with it. But keep in mind that is just on a pure hydrodynamic end. There are other factors that contribute to the complete package.

For example lets say there is a gear case that does not have laminar flow seperation till 75 mph. The boat only runs 68 mph. Adding a nose cone can not possibly reduce hydrodynamic drag but it can increase speed by other ways. Any additional running surface ( lets stay away from parabolic nosecones at this point) will create lift. If your 68 mph boat needs more sternlift adding a nosecone on the drive could create that needed stern lift, reduce the amount of trim needed and therefore reduce total drag. My only point is that even if you picked up speed it was not necessarily because of the streamlining of the gearcase but the lift factor the longer gear case contributed.

Also don't forget nosecones increase the aspect ratio of the gear case and theoretically and in my experience create a more stable better handing boat. This is because ouf the increased rudder length of the gear case.

Chris

Back to a bulbous bow

[catch 22]

Thanks everyone for the advice. Smoothie, thanks for the offer but I am right handed. I forgot to mention that I tried a three blade Hydro (24 Pitch) and I was on the limiter. 5050 is about right. Talked to Lee Murray today about how the 25 pitch Turbo worked. Waiting on a reply from Turbo to see what they think. I have one more prop to try and that is a 3 blade Mercury Clever 25 pitch. Will keep you all posted on how that does. Thanks again, Jim :)

[smoothie]

Catch22,I bought a 26 hydro Q4 off of e-bay for cheap and had 1/2" cut off the dia. then put the cup back on,now I have the best of both worlds. :)

[turbo2256]

Smoothie,
I am about to do the same sort of mod to my Hydro. Could you please expand on your before and after results. I have gone to a 24 p then to a 25p between the two I lost quite a bit of rpm but now go 60 at 4100 with the 25. The 24 went 65 but hit the RPM limiter. The 25 has half the slip of the of the 24. Hydro says reducing the dia usally dosent change the slip much or at all. So with a dia reduction on the 25 and recuping I should be able to reach 68 (if slip goes back to the 24, if it stays real close to the 25 slip #s I might reach 72. Also I hope to improve handling by reducing tork reaction of the prop attempting to spin the boat. Is this what you experanced or any thig close actual figures would help.

[smoothie]

Turbo...I started at 66.7 mph at 4800 and ended up at 70.4 mph at 5200.Before boat seemed loaded down,after it was back to being happy. :) Didnt notice any change in handling,was good both ways.

[Pismo]

Just put the boat up for the winter..Last run was the fastest at 74.5 on GPS.
Will try some new props in the spring, maybe a flame arrestor.

Cheers

[Rootsy]

Smoothie, i am interested in what you had done to your quad IV... i just dont want to go screwing a perfectly good and expensive prop up. just from removing diameter you gained 400 rpm? or did you also have it thinned (ie labbed)? who did the work for you?

[smoothie]

James,I gained about 600 rpm with the change in Dia. but what happens is the cup is removed also,thats why I had the cup put back on for 400 rpm,I removed .500 on the Dia.you may want to start with maybe .125 off the Dia. and go from there.My boat is heavy so your boat may have different results.

[Pismo]

Thanks for all the info.

Has anyone ever tried a water crossover on a big block 454/502/496 and removed the circulating pump? Any performance gain? How about just a better flame arrestor?

BTW, I have been shopping for a Turbo 1 but the highest pitch they have ever made is a 25" which is what I am running and hitting the rev limiter. They market up to a 27" but have never actually made one according to Dan's.

[Tomahawk]

Pismo - you are running real well already but, the way it's running and with the rpm you're pulling, the Turbo 1 27" is really worth a try. I'm a 454 Mag in a 22 Classic (1.5 to 1) and can pull the Mirage Plus 23 well but can actually pull a 25" in the Turbo 1. My guess is that you could pull the Turbo 27 and may go faster. BTW,they have made at least one because I know someone who has one (lost in the bottom of his boat!)As has been said, you just gotta try as many as you can to see what works best for you.

[BigGrizzly]

Pismo, Turbo has them. Tom I found the 27 Turbo prop when I was looking for the spare heat exchanger under the front seat of the Criterion, right next to the spare anchor under the terminal kit. BTW they may even have a 28 turbo. the 27 runa over 86mph at 5400 rpms with a 1:50 drive.

[Pismo]

Spring is here and I am cleaning up the boat.

[Pismo]

Over the winter I picked up a 27" Mirage Plus, a labbed 27" Mirage plus and a K&N XS flame arrestor. The guys from Turbo are suggesting a 26" Turbo Vector. Has anybody ever tried one of these Turbo Vectors? Many here have suggested the Turbo 1. To recap, I have a 22 Classic 502Mag, 25" Mirage Plus running 74.5mph top on GPS at the rev limiter of 5050rpm. Looking to dial in with a prop change and get the revs down a touch to get off the limiter. Also thinking of adding a set of stainless marine exhaust manifolds. Would love to hear anyones opinion on the props, the Turbo Vector, and the manifolds.

This has been a great thread to date, lots of good discussion and I hope to get it active again so please add your thoughts.


Thanks very much and happy spring......

Steve

[Sam]

My vote goes for the Turbo. Out of all the props I have tried (8 plus) the Turbo gave me the most bang for the buck.

Sam


The ice is out, let's get wet.