Donzi's Lee Kimmel in PB mag

[Cuda]

Anyone else read this article? It's very interesting.
He said one of the fundemental problems with Donzi when he took over was they were building boats for "what they euphemistically described as a "gentleman's performance boat" meaning they looked fast, but were slow."

He goes on later and says:
"When we first started taking a hard look, I was amazed at the high percentage of Donzi Classics we produced. It didn't require an epiphany to understand that was because they (the Donzi Classic models)were the only three boats we made that fit into people's conception of what a Donzi was supposed to be."

It is a very interesting article, you should read it if you get the chance.

[Greg K]

As it should be....A Classic



Cuda:

He goes on later and says:
"When we first started taking a hard look, I was amazed at the high percentage of Donzi Classics we produced. It didn't require an epiphany to understand that was because they (the Donzi Classic models)were the only three boats we made that fit into people's conception of what a Donzi was supposed to be."

[BigGrizzly]

I think he really needs to come to the rally and see what the mistique is really about. Being the CEO of Donzi and he just doesn't get the Donzi spirit. He is a buisness man and a good one in the corporate structure. I beleive he likes Donzis he just doesn't understand the "Donzi Mistique". We are like the Corvette and Shelby owners club just not as stuck up and we are friendly to other boat owners not just Donzi owners. Its like you neet the neatest people in Donzis.

Come on Lee come to the rally and meet all of us on a one on one basis. I'll even give you a ride in my Criterion.

[Cuda]

Actually, after reading the article, he does know what the mystique is, and wants them to uphold that mystique.

[fasttrucker]

Ive been thinking about this for a long time. :confused: My donzi looks great but performed badly.Ive spent a lot of money+time to bring the boat up from 65mph to over 70mph,now iam going to spend another $2gs to blueprint the bottom over the winter. :rolleyes: I think that I could have used that money to go to more donzi events,ect.I would have had more fun going to aoth or canada...then writing the checks to my engine mech. :( Oh well ....I do look good! :cool: :cool:

[BUIZILLA]

FT, I can understand your predicament. However, before you spend that next 2G, maybe for naught, why don't you tow that boat on down to the rally for all of us to see, run it in the bay there, and get perhaps a factory rep. opinion, and see if there really is a need to get out the air planer..
I'm still convinced your hull is fine, and the wrench holder needs to be changed. You may spend $800 total to attend the rally, and solve your problem, versus 2G to maybe wreck the bottom.

Just my .02, I feel VERY strongly your hull is okay.

J

[Mark Albers]

Big Griz wink

If you take Lee for a ride in your Criterion
You will only jeopardize your waiting list

Mystique will kick him in the ass and force production of the new generation Criterion

Actually that might knock Poodle of the list :p

Mark 311 :cool:
Sarasota - - - W F O (close to the factory and far from a dream)

[Mark Albers]

Mad Poodle wink

I made a deal with Griz at Eufaula

He offically made me second on the list (I never knew that motorcycles were his hot button)

I also did not understand his suggestion about the Easy Payment Plan ??? (rent to own ???)

Mark 311 :cool:
Sarasota - - - W F O (close to the factory and far from a dream)

[BUIZILLA]

Hmmmmm wink

I wonder how I can get on that list :cool:

J

[Mark Albers]

Crazy Canine wink

Just remeber that the "The Inner Circle" is not always closet to the "Core"

Hey, is said $25,000 is firm :p

Mark 311 :cool:
Sarasota - - - W F O (close to the factory and far from a dream)

[Barry Phillips]

I read it , frankly I don't think he has a clue, I found it interesting that he thinks the only real players are Fountain, and Formula. I had the sense from the article that he thought that Donzi's identity was tied up in the Classics. This may be the case since the ZX line is not that much different everything else on the water. I think that Cobalt is falling into the same groove. Has anyone taken a good look at a new Chris-Craft lately somebody sweat the details, vastly improved over the junk they were selling 10 years ago. Donzi has been more focused on build quility and performance lately, the Classic 22s are one of the few small big name brands that comes stock with a big block, but this weekend I looked at a 26' Campion Chase a Canadian builder. The Chase is from there performance line, 496 HO, Gaffrig controls and Red Line gauges, trim tabs I've never seen before, leather Momo steering wheel, a real quality piece, it made a Fountain 29 not far away look like homemade. The point is, I think there is a lot of competition out there to the ZX line for a lot less money. I don't want to offend the ZX guys, but think donzi needs a more distintive design, the euro look is getting a little old. The Classics are a more unique line and always get noticed, but Gaffrig controls to go along with those nice Monster gauges would enhance even the Classic's image. And at lest make the dual ram Benet Sport Tabs and a Momo wheel standard. I would like to see him love the product that his company builds, like we do.

SO-SLO

[Shanghied Again]

Barry, Do the Math
I own a 16 Classic and love Classics. The Classic line sells big quantity but not much in profit. The ZX line especally the 26,28 and the 38ZX are the best selling boats in there class. I sold 3 38ZXs last year alone.

Chase is not a good selling boat in the us (No Name) I know 3 dealers that tried to sell them (Failed).

There are two boat builders that make the distinctive old hull design Thats Cigarette and Magnum, The Magnum 27 that remained the same for years and does not sell well.
The 33-38ZX are a cross breed between performance and a cruiser. They give you everything you need AC/Heat TV Microwave Full Bathroom and the boat will still do 80mph.
Weather its a Classic or a ZX,ZF or a ZSC its still a Donzi.
I think it was critical mistake to get rid of the Z line they were great selling boats. Especally the smaller cruisers. Heck Formula made them for years and continue to be the top seller of all there boats.
In the Performance world Donzi still is in the tops.
The biggest Classic of them all is the 38ZR a 38ft sit down boat, low freeboard no cabin and nobody wants to buy them.
If they built a 28 Classic they would have a problem selling it.
They would be priced to high for a sit down boat.
I know when I want a boat that is capeable to run in the Ocean I would want to stand not sit.
Donzi will never stop building the ZX Line thats there bread and butter.

[Barry Phillips]

Hi Frank I wasn't putting done the ZX line, just Kimmel's comments that Fountain and Formula were the only real players in the 26' to 38' sport boat segment. I thought this was an arrogant statement. I know that the Campion Chase is not a big seller in the US, but they seem to be trying, it is interesting to see how a non-US builder approaches boat building. Although the ZX line is a better seller on large bodies of water, the Classics have a dedicated following on inland lakes. Where I boat the ZX has to compete with the Baja SST and Outlaw, Checkmate, Pantera, Powerquest, Formula, Warlock, the list goes on. Donzi has come a long way in build quality and a great hull design in the ZX. I'm just not a big fan of them from the gunnels up. I’m tired of the rounded euro look that’s has been around for the last 15 years. The shorter hulls look out of proportion and this goes for just about everything that offers a stand up cabin. I realize this is what the buyers want, a sort of family hotrod and profits are bigger on bigger boats. But the reality is at the launch ramp or at your favorite watering hole the Classics get noticed, I think this attention is one of the most fun things about owning one, the 70mph doesn’t hurt either. As per Magnum, the 27 is almost a toy compared to the rest of their line, I personally have never seen a new Magnum and the new 27 is unique and I’m sure very expensive. I agree that Donzi can't survive on the Classic line alone, but I do not feel they offer anything that a 22 Classic enthusiast would want to move up to. I would love to see Donzi come out with a smaller version of the 38 ZR, not a bigger Classic. I sure Kimmel is a great businessman but I did not come away from the interview with the understanding that he passionate about boat building or boating, not like Reggie Fountain.

SO-SLO

[Cuda]

The feeling I got from the article, is that he wants the Zx line be as fast as they look. I think he means trimming some of the fluff. I think the ZR is the ultimate poker run boat, but it's a special type, that takes special buyer, in an already very special market. That trims the possible buyer base quite a bit.

As far as Kimmel being more business than a boat enthusiast, in my opinion, that makes him a better choice to run a boat company. He won't continue to build a boat that doesn't make a profit just because he loves the boat. As far as Fountain, he has on several occasions nearly run the company into bankruptcy. Why do you think Merc just lent him all that money. There were many great boat builders that couldn't run a business. Seen any new Apache's lately?

[harbormaster]

Barry, In my case I would have to agree that saying that Donzi has nothing for a 22 owner to move up to.

I am an owner of an 18 classic that that is continually used on a inherrently rough body of water. I have found that even though the 18 and 22 classics can handle these rough conditions, they do not handle them "comfortably".

In looking for a larger boat, the ZX line does not offer the traditional styling that so many classic owners are fond of. That is why you see some classic owners transitioning to larger boats with the non rounded traditional lines that are not Donzi's.

I for one would like to see a 27-33' donzi based on tradional non-ZX lines. The cabin also does not need to look like a martini bar. I believe that with twin powerplants it would run like a scalded dog.

This is just my thoughts and are probably of no value whatsoever :D

[Donzigo]

Great thread.........I've re-read the Lee Kimmell article a few times. I liked his comments. I think that American Marine Holdings is better for his businessman's approach.

Would some of you address what Lee might have meant with his comments about the industry suffering from over capacity, low barriers to entry, and the like.Is that to suggest that the marine industry would be better off with just a few large companies? Further, would you comment of this being one of America's last branded hand built products.

I'd be interested in comments, especially from those who make a living in the industry.......Frank Civitano? Others?

Lastly, now that we own a 1986 22, I can tell you that it has a lot of "boat ramp-appeal" and gawkers on the water. But, a 1958 Corvette fuelie or 67 Sting Ray does too. But, nobody expects them to perform with current technology autos. They just "look great". (Ford is puling the T-Bird for low sales. It's cool looking & has nastalgia ; but, can't compete with the other offerings at $40,000. A large Classic would meet the same fate.) Only boating on the ocean for 30 years, I too, think that an ocean going Classic "sit down" boat wouldn't have a market and would be priced out of the market.

[Barry Phillips]

Scot, that’s exactly my point, I do think that Classic owners are a very different buyer than the ZX owner. I have also seen owners of 22s leave the family for more traditional sport boats like the Pantera. Ironically what’s old is new again and the Classics are enjoying a rebirth in popularity, people are board with one size fits all products, just look at the auto industry the new Z car, the new Mustang coming out in 2005, the list goes on. Young guys who weren’t born yet when the Classics first came out think my 22 is the coolest boat on the planet., and the older guys like us just remember. I have tied up next to Fountains, Formulas, Velocities even wooden speed boats and someone will always make the effort to walk down to dock and check out the Donzi. Cuda you say that the ZR is poker run boat and has a limited market. I think what limits it's sales the most is size and price. The larger and more expensive something is, and this goes for anything, the less volume you are going to sell. I'm not in the boating business, but I've been around them all my life and where I boat 24 to 32 feet seems to be the most common size. I still think a smaller version of the ZR would be a nice evolution of the Classic, a no bull#### sport boat would give the Classic owner something to move up to. Lets face it Donzi is not GM they are in the words of Kimmel himself a builder of a hand made product which gives Donzi a lot of flexibility. At this small local dealer show I went to last weekend one boat that seem to be getting a lot of attention was the new ChrisCraft 22, 25, and 28. ChisCraft has given a very modern design a nice traditional look. Great build quality and very unique features, I see this boat as real competition for Cabolt. I picked up a cataloge, and you can even get a stainless wind shield frame as an option, humm, I wonder were they are sourcing it.

SO-SLO

[Ranman]

Would some of you address what Lee might have meant with his comments about the industry suffering from over capacity, low barriers to entry, and the like.Is that to suggest that the marine industry would be better off with just a few large companies? What Lee is saying is that the industry has too many boat builders already. Too much capacity means everyone suffers. I don't think he's implying that a few large builders would be best, just that the industry could use some "right-sizing".

To comment on low barriers to entry. This means that it's relativly easy to enter the boat building industry. Any old Joe with a shop and some materials can go into boat building. A perfect example of this is Lenny. At a relativly low cost to him, Lenny has been able to produce his very own boats.

A high barrier to entry market would be the cellular phone industry. The cellular infrastructure (offices, towers, etc.) is so vast and expensive, it would be very difficult for anybody to start up the next Verizon from scratch. That's why there are so few players. Typically, anywhere you see a monopoly or an oligopily, you will also see high barriers to entry.

Now, because the boat building industry has such low barriers to entry, you get many more people who make attempts at being boat builders. All these boat builders create over capacity. There is more ability to produce boats than there are people buying them. It's like having to pay for an auto plant that is operational and everyone is there, but they aren't producing anything. Instead of having one idle plant though, the over capacity is spread amongst all the builders.

Lee also eludes to the notion that many of these so called boat builders are pricing their boats too low. The new guy doesn't have a concept of what his operating costs are and therefore cannot properly price his product. The problem here is that the "new" guy lowballs the price to steal some sales from the established builder. He's selling boats below his cost trying to out compete the market. The established builder now has two choices, either lose sales to the new guy or try to match his poorly calculated price. Either way the industry suffers. As another example, this situation happens in the recreational vehicle business all the time. Come winter in the north, snowmobile dealers compete themselves right out of business. Some new guy is willing to beat everyones price on a new sled and ends up driving himself into bankruptcy because he doesn't understand his costs and can't make enough revenue to keep himself going.


Finally, what I'm reading between the lines here is that Lee would like to see less boat builders in the industry for Donzi to have to compete with. This would allow Donzi to charge more and thus more easily cover their operating costs. This would also allow for more R&D and ultimatly better products and higher profits. Right now, Donzi has to compete with people who are unknowingly pricing themselves out of business. It sounds greedy, but the over capacity means there's little room for innovation. Everyone has to watch their P's and Q's to the extreme. In my opinion this situation is bad for the industry and ultimatly bad for the consumers. This situation in the industry means the consumer gets to benefit by relativly cheap boats (yeah right), but also suffers from the slow pace of development.

[olredalert]

------Here we are talking about upgrading to a larger "Classic" style DONZI that appears to not be really available and the "Harry Schell" designed 24 molds for the particular Classic I love so much are languishing in the backyard of a small south Florida boat company slowly going to hell!
------I really think that the 24 is the best of two worlds.Its big enough to take serious water,and yet its extremely manuverable.It can sucessfully be built as either a twin,a single,or even (perish the thought) an outboard for big sales numbers.It can easily be built with a variety of deck styles to suite almost any taste.It also is still extremely trailerable,which to me is very,very important.
------Im struck dumb that no manufacturer sees these inherent traits.You have the center console as the base model,which everyone knows is the backbone of sales today,and with very little effort you have stand-up capabilities,go-fast capabilities,even cabin capabilities.And yet you can tow it anywhere with your Suburban or (perish the thought) your Excursion,and dont need a dedicated "Peterbuilt"!
------I feel that a twenty four foot boat is big enough to throw enough cool stuff (read content) at it to make a pretty decent profit.Ill give you that I am,anymore,an arm-chair theorist,but can anyone poke holes in my ramblings?..........Bill S

[harbormaster]

It was mentioned that there is a glut of boat manufacturers.

Even thought thats the case, it's a shame that most of them all look alike.

All it takes is a manufacturer with enough business savy and courage to break away from the pack.

[Barry Phillips]

The comment from Lee Kimmel that there is a so called over capacity is a two edged sword, one would hope that a large volume of builders would inspire more design innovation and diversity, the other side as he puts it, drives down profit margins and lessens R&D. Our economic system whatever the business is based on competition. Look how Japanese competition affected the American auto and truck industry for the better. If Don Aronow thought that way would Donzi exist today? Would there be a Classic series? One of the real problems for smaller builders as I understand it, is that it is difficult to source custom components because of tooling cost. For instance Taylor makes over 80 % of the windshields for the marine industry, that’s why a lot of boats use similar wrap around windshields, they are just variations of the same design, so boat builders have to design there decks to conform to a few basic layouts, so everything’s looks the same. Most sport boat builders because of there low volume use plexy windshields or fairings. Again I give ChrisCraft credit because they came up with a modern WS without the long sidelights you see on everything else. When I purchased my 22 I received a questionnaire from Donzi asking what other brand I had considered, my response was nothing, because the Classics have no real competition. If I had to a answer the same question about a 22 or 26ZX I could think of at least 12 brands for more or less money. And forget about the ZF series, just about every big name performance builder is selling a fish line, not to mention Boston Whaler, Grady White, Pursuit, the list is almost endless. Maybe the trick is to come up with more unique line and not compete with everything else. Again the ZX is a great boat, but it is an evolutionary design instead of a revolution that the Classics were.

SO-SLO