96 18' Classic Handling Question

[Ranman]

Here's another one for you folks. My 18' when rounding a turn (fairly tight) really tips up on its side. I feels like its almost 90 degrees (probably more like 60 degrees). It's wild to see how far down the passenger is on a sharp left. My girlfriend feels like she is going to die (go figure), but I tell her it is most likely normal. The boat has bennett trim tabs. Anyone have any comments on this?

[Randy Hibbard]

Yeah, I bet many of us have that little problem. Tends to scare the crap out of your passengers and yourself at times. I too have the trim tabs on my 20 footer and found if you leave them down at low speed manuvers she will tilt so far over, the drive leaves the water and the steering leaves your control! My solution for more level turns is trim tabs up, slow the boat a bit before the turn, then turn and acellerate through it. The overall ride of a deep V is still the best!

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Randy

[Stan]

RE: 1990 18 2+3

This is very interesting. I thought I had a unique problem. When I am by myself the boat handles great especially in turns. I can make SHARP left or right turns without any excessive leaning or the feeling that I ‘m going to tip over. With a passanger in the front left seat, a left turn must be watched carefully. If I turn left too hard the boat will reach a point where it seems to want go over the edge….its scary ! My boat also has a list to the left when I have a passanger in the front left seat. If I put my passenger in the rear right seat everything is ok. Whats up ?

I even thought of putting some weight in the rear right of the boat as a counter balance.

Stan…..

[Varyak]

I don't have an answer, but I'll join the crowd. '99 Classic 16 with V6 has exactly the same "pitch-over" in left turns as described above. No trim tabs. But I do have a Stabilizer in the cavitation plate. But then I had the same "symptoms" before the wing was added. I've tried slowing and trimming in for sharp left turns. It is scary how far the boat lays over on the gunnels. I keep hearing how wonderful these boats handle, and instead find them a real handful at any speed. Yet, I constantly remind myself that I am maneuvering at twice the speed that most other boats do these things. And the faster you go the better they fly. Straight lines are no problem. Corners are. Like a mid-'60's Vette.
Mark

[Eight_(8)_Ball]

hi my 18 in a hard speed turn tries to porpiose itself over ! real scarry in ruff water at higher speeds. i though i might try lowering the trim pin on my 270, but being able to take most singles around i dont want to lose my top end!.

[Kent]

The extreme lean is indicative of the deep vee you have on the Donzi. The porposing during a turn in choppy water can also spit easily eject the a driver or passenger.

If you have tabs, put the inside tab down before a turn along with trimming in.( Left turn = left tab down) This will make the boat turn more level. With practice, you can actually make the boat turn pretty sharp at speed even in choppy water.

Kent

[Peter Beck]

I have the same leaning issue with my 22 as what is described. My wife hates it but the more time I have behind the steering wheel the more comfortable I get. I have noticed when the tabs are down the handling is not as friendly but at high speeds and trimmed out the stern gets dancing. Boy there is no better feeling!!!!

[Ranman]

I have to agree with Peter, when my tabs are down, attempting to make any turn produces a strange effect / feeling. I've also noticed that it takes my tabs a long time to respond (8-10 sec for full travel) so continuous adjustment is difficult, especially with no gauge on the tabs. To boot, the boat has one "joystick" for both tabs which I don't think I like too much. I don't plan on going crazy with it trying to carve corners at 60 mph. On a straight line she feels good, a bit hairy at times, but fairly stable. I really wish the prop didn't come out of the water as much though. I do pull the throttle back when in the air, but I don't know if my reflexes get it in time and I feel bad for that poor little Alpha One back there.

[Bad Dog]

It's definitely a Donzi thing. My dad had a 1978 and a 1969 and they both did the same thing.

It's actually kind of cool (in a sadistic fashion) to get newbies in the boat, especially in the back seat, and then pull one of those turns.

Personally, I have found that accelleration through the turn is the best way to keep the boat stable. Constant accelleration will push the back end around and keep it in the water.

I do like it that way. I get great looks on the water from other boaters when they see me pull off one of those turns. I figure it's as close to flying a jet as I'll ever get.

Bret

[BillG]

In a tight turn you have to remember that you now have a flat bottom boat and they tend to porpoise a lot more than a deep V. At high speeds in a tight turn the lower unit is in a position to act as an elevator and a rudder. In my younger days racing Jersey Speed Skiffs, this phenomenom was even more pronounced. The hard over rudder would lift the stern till the bow dug in and you could swap ends.

[PaulO]

Handling problem? I thought that was a handling feature!! When I have back seat passengers, I ask them how warm the water is. When they reply that they don't know, I make a sharp turn enabling them to reach out and touch the water.
PaulO

[Stan]

Whew !!!!

And I thought I had a problem with just my Donzi ! Is there the real possibility of the boat going over ? I guess I'll just have to work on finding out !!

How about the listing to the left,,,,anyone else with the same problem ?

Stan

[PaulO]

Yes, those with right hand steering and overweight wives.

Actually, the rotation of the propeller should be the same direction as the drivers seat. Right hand rotation/right side drivers seat. The prop torque tends to tilt the boat and the weight is needed to balance it.
PaulO

[Stan]

Are you saying that the list to the left
(while going straight) is normal ?
with me in the front right seat (215 lbs)and a passenger in the front left seat (150-200 lbs).

Yes right hand rotation

Stan

[DonziDave]

I was wondering how long it would take for this question to come up! It is a Donzi thing and the first time it happens it scares the crap out of you! But once you learn to control this "feature", it's a blast! The technique is like when you learned to drive your car on two wheels - It's all balance and throttle. It's more controllable if you are on the high side. I can get my 18 so far on the edge, the rub-rail is under water without ventilating the prop. People are amazed when they see this done. Dave

[Forrest]

Yea, DonziDave . . . that's fun!

[AVickers]

Hmmmm,

Unless I'm really hauling ass, my 18 aerates the prop before going over too far and then slows right down and settles back on the V -- with the prop caught up in a big air bubble until I ease off and start over. When hauling, I can really heel her over as long as I don't touch the throttle. As soon as I push or pull the throttle, she aerates and falls off to the outside of the turn -- gentle as can be.

Someone suggested a cleaver is less suseptable to aeration and would allow me to heel over like this, but I haven't bothered with it now that I have the 22.

The 22, on the other hand, is a monster when it comes to heeling over. The water wall on the inside of the turn slews out even with the top of the heads of the rear passengers. Way, way cool. She has a 15x24 cleaver, so maybe that's part of the difference.

I have noticed that the 22 handles even worse than the 18 at low/docking speeds. And it takes a lot more real estate to turn than the 18. Low speed stuff around a wake boarder or skier is tough with the 22 -- even a 75' rope bypasses the guy in the water before the boat makes the full turn around them. This never happens with the 18.

The 22 is NOT a low speed handler...

(With the 30+ pitch on the Blackhawks I can now really see why guys with these boats complain about docking or low speed handling in no-wake zones. In gear at idle, the boat really moves, but doesn't steer worth a damn. No fun.)

[This message has been edited by avickers (edited 07-07-2000).]

[DonziDave]

Re: My earlier post and to piggy-back Bad Dog's and Bill G's comments. I think we are talking about 3 different types of turns.
My experiances are---
1. To prevent porposing during a normal at-speed turn, I agree with Bad Dog - trim full down and throttle thru the turn.
2. Riding-the-rail turn is a slow speed turn that I do by slowing the boat to almost idle then locking the wheel over and powering the boat up to balance on the rail and throttle thru the turn.
3. Using a technique similar to Bill G's post, I can do an at-speed (40-45 max) snap turn by running straight ahead, put drive trim and trim tabs full down (this will bury the nose), snap the wheel full over and the boat will practically swap ends. With all the trims down the boat will burn off a lot speed, do a 180, settle in the water ready for a full throttle hole-shot in the opposite direction. YeeeHaaa!!!
It's all practice - practice - practice
Dave

[Tom on Lanier]

Oh, ok, now I understand - like when I learned to drive my car on two wheels. You worry me Dave!
Hey, Charlotte is just a state or two away from Lake Eufaula. Any chance that you could join us for the Labor Day weekend Donzi getogether? You would be a great addition to the group.

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Tom on Lanier

[Peter Beck]

One of the biggest handling concerns that I have come across with my 22 is once I get the boat on plane tabs all up she decides to lean over to the rail on the driver side. This has happened twice and only when I have been in the boat. To help counter this I put the driver side tab down a little and this seems to help. Speaking of tabs has anyone ever installed indicators on your Bennetts? If so is it a big job?

[AVickers]

Isn't that called chine walking??? How fast were you going?

[Varyak]

I thought chine walking was the little left-right tilt dance the stern does as high planning speeds as it seeks stability on one side of the V or the other. My 16 has no trim tabs, so I cannot adjust this "handling feature". The heavy lean to the left only happens to me when I have another large person in the boat. I don't get lean to the right even though my boat is rigged to the right. I assume the prop rotation counters my weight. I prefer right turns to left at any time. Left turns are always hairy at speed withother people on board. I also get heavy left lean out of the hole when someone else is on board and they are not sitting directly behind me.

[riverrat]

I love the way the boat falls off to the side in low speed turns. It's great to see the look on someones face if they have never been in the boat before just after you tell them to hold on! But I'm sick that way. It's just an other great feature of a Donzi. Learning to drive one takes time.. after you know how, it's the fastest turning boat out there high or low speed...Donzi 18's rule!!

sd

[Stan]

OOOOOHHHHH

I don't feel so alone anymore ! Every characteristic, good or bad, you all describe I have also.

Although the list to the left I would really like to work on...any suggestions ?

Stan

[AVickers]

Tabs.

[Stan]

Trim tabs...I was afraid you'd say that.

What brand and how much $ do you think ?

Stan

[Emmo]

I just bought a set of Boat Leveler Co. InstaTrim (http://www.insta-trim.com/main.html) for $239 from

Aftermarket Marine
4524 Shores Dr 316
Metarie, LA 70006

1-800-769-7698 or 504-888-2798

According to Forrest, these were original equipment on some of the older Donzis. This recommendation came from Forrest also and it worked (retail is about $400) on the kit-

Note: Tell them that you are a small time boat repair business and you need a catalog. Give them a name business name, like Mellow Yellow Marine Repair. They won't ask for any proof.


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Emmo mailto:emmette@emmette.comemmette@emmette.com</A>

[GEOO]

Peter, I installed Stainless Marine's Trim Tab indicators on my X-18. One end of the cable clamps on the trim ram. You need to cut a hole in the dash for the slide type gauge and run the cables foward. It's not very difficult. GEOO

[AVickers]

I've got Bennett Standard Tabs on my 22.
I haven't done any service on them, but as near as I can tell, they use hydraulic pressure on the down stroke and a spring in the ram to retract??? They're slow. And with no indicator, it's difficult to tell where they are. I do use them to trim the boat in quartering wind and when passengers move around in the boat. And when pulling a wakeboarder at low speed to get the bow down.

HOWEVER, as I said, they're slow. It seems to me that they're too slow to aid much in a transistion through a hole shot to full plane to riding the pad...

If I were installing from scratch, I'd look at Bennett Sport Tabs -- or for a set of K-planes. About $500 for the Sport Tabs. I remember that the K-planes are MUCH more expensive. The Sport tabs use two rams and perhaps a more powerful pump. My guess is that they actuate more quickly. The K-planes that I have looked at have had dual-action pistons with positive pressure in both directions. I'd think they, too, were quicker, but I've not been in a Donzi w/ them installed, so don't know for sure.

I'd also look at getting a kit with indicators.

[Murphy]

This makes for some interesting reading. I have a 1986 Classic 22 that is totally stable and predictable at all speeds. I mean of all the boats I've owned, this one can take anyhthing the water throws at it. Thinking about this, it may have something to do with the condition of the hull. The boat has never been waxed below the water line and the gel coat has dulled a bit there. Now I know this reduces top end, but do you suppose it helps handling? Are any of these boats with special handling features slicked up with teflon or other wax below the water line? I have to believe a slippery hull acts different during turns and maneuvers. I was thinking of buffing mine out and waxing, now I wonder if I'll ruin a good thing. Just another theory.

Murph

[AVickers]

I can't complain about the handling of my 22 at speed either. In fact, it's rock solid at any speed -- straight line, wild turns, or flying. My wife loves it! Says she feels more secure and comfortable in the 22 over the 18.

My only complaint with either is that low-speed handling on V-bottoms is traditionally not very good. They tend wallow back and forth and are slow to the helm with idling along. And the 22 is worse than the 18. It just takes some getting used to.

My only complaints about the 22 are that it has an Alpha drive on it -- need I say more?

And the windshield was replaced by the previous owner and he didn't like the "eyebrows" on the old one. So when he had the new shield fabricated, he left 'em off. Now the wind vectors back right at eye/ear level. I can place my hand on the top of the shield and protect my face, but when removed, it'll blow your eyeballs off!

Need to install some deflectors.

[GEOO]

I'm pretty sure the Bennett Sport Tabs (two rams per tab) uses the same pump as the standard Tab. Which would make them twice as slow. I've found that small boats, with plenty of power only realy need tabs to correct for a list. Deep Vee's don't ride well while hitting on one side. GEOO

[Peter Beck]

Thanks Geoo for your reply. Hey AVICKERS I have dual cylinders on each tab and it takes about 15 seconds for them to fully extend when out of water.I am not so sure I would want them to react any faster because of the response of the boat. This last week I was on vacation and finally had got more time behind the wheel and trying some things that you guys mentioned (powering into a turn)it did make a big difference. I have a better understanding of the characteristics of the boat.
A little story on how dumb some people can be. My wife and I were out in the Donzi on Saturday and a guy in a Baja was out also. He apparently wanted to race me because he kept running by me at full tilt. Well we were just ready to go into the cottage when he was coming towards us and as he got closer and being off to the left he suddenly whipped his boat towards us and back the cut around behind us. This shook my wife and was totally uncalled for. I just don't know what actions like this prove. Others have complained about this person and it seems he feels invincible with a big boat.

[AVickers]

Yeah, there's a bunch of 'em out there. Is there some "authority" you can report the guy to that will actually do anything about it? One lake here is patrolled by City Cops and the others are patrolled by Sheriff's Deputies and Sworn River authorities -- all with the authority to ticket and arrest. Most of the time they're more of a pain in the ass than anything else (lately, loudness enforcement is their big harrassment thing), but sometimes they can be forced into earning their keep.

[Emmo]

I've found that a couple of 3.5" 12 gauge Nitro-mags fired rapidly from my Benelli tends to discourage that kind of activity http://www.donzi.net/ubb/eek.gif
http://www.benelliusa.com/showimage/m1tm.gif

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Emmo mailto:emmette@emmette.comemmette@emmette.com</A>

[This message has been edited by Emmo (edited 07-10-2000).]

[Peter Beck]

Well the only concern I have with mentioning it to the township police is that just ten minutes before he swerved towards me he was talking to him. Anyway thinking about it my boat is still a heck of allot better looking then any Baja any day even if it may just be faster?? But I don't need to prove that and my wife did reinforce that with me!!!

[Murphy]

Aren't bilge plugs removable?

[Blewbyu]

Yup!

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[Blewbyu]

Emmo- Us Yankee boys really admire how you Southin' boys jest git straight to it! Bet it works REEEEL GOOOOD....even if ya' shoot kinda slow....
How do 3" Mags work??? Almost as well...?
Have you tried Bismuth yet? Good ballistics- but 'bout $2.00 per pull.....

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