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View Full Version : DEAD Donzi ** Unbelievable update **



Brad Lyon
05-28-2002, 10:41 AM
Anyone have any suggestions as to what is wrong with my fuel injection system? I have a 1993 Classic 18 with a 5.8L Multi-port fuel injected OMC engine. Here is what has happened. The boat ran just fine the first day that we were at Lake Cumberland (Thursday 5/9/02), WOT at about 4600 to 4800 RPM. Friday and the rest of the weekend I could not go above 4000 RPM, it felt like I was pulling a skier or a tube when I hit 4000 RPM, and it would not go any faster. Other than that it ran fine for the rest of the weekend, I just kept it under 4000 RPM. I changed the fuel filter but it had no effect on performance. Never had any problems starting the boat, just tap the key and she was running.

On Sunday 5/12/02 I put the boat on the trailer and drove home to Michigan. Since then the boat has been sitting in my driveway until this last weekend when I took it back up north to my cottage. After unpacking Thursday evening (5/22/02) I took the boat to the launch, backed it into the water, got in and tried to start it but she would not start. It would just crank and crank. The first thing I checked was to see if I have spark and I do. The low and hi pressure fuel pumps come on when the key is turned to the run position most of the time. Sometimes they do not which is a concern, and sometimes the gages do not come on when the key it turned to the run position, fuel gage will read empty when I know it is full, trim indicator reads down when I know it is up etc.

I checked to see if I was getting any pressure from the fuel pumps by cracking some fittings. There is pressure, maybe not enough for high speeds but it seems like there is enough pressure to idle the engine or at least get a sputter but I get nothing. The boat is now up in mid-lower peninsula of Michigan where there are not a lot of experienced boat mechanics. Especially anyone with experience with fuel injection systems. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Brad
(The one who was stuck on the dock when everyone else was having fun this weekend.)

Woodsy
05-28-2002, 12:04 PM
Brad,

I would look at the ignition switch first... everything should come on all the timewhen you turn the key to run... lights, guages, bilge etc... . If the ignition switch has an intermittent fault, or causes some sort of voltage drop, it could be causing the fuel pumps & ignition to momemtarily shut off... Worth replacing anyway, as they are cheap. Just about any NAPA or marine store should have one.

As far as the injection goes, its basic run of the mill ford stuff. You need to put a pressure gauge on the fuel line to see how much pressure you have. I don't know what its supposed to be, but I'll be you need 30-35 psi or so for the injectors to work properly. If you don't have enough pressure, the injectors will not operate properly. If you don't have enough voltage nothing will work properly either.

Anyway, I hope this helps! We want to see you up here at Winni!!

Woodsy :D :D

KMLFAMILY
05-28-2002, 04:43 PM
How about checking and cleaning ground contact"s ?To verify if it is fuel or electrical problems on the no start. I would give the air intake a small shot of starting fluid.If it starts and dies. Then chase the fuel system.Someone had a post where the oil pressure swich was faulty.Shutting off fuel pump. I also 2nd the proper voltage.Loose belt ?

tailwind
05-28-2002, 08:16 PM
Hi Brad:

Hope you have it running by now! But just a thought or two: The only differences between your romp at Jamestown and starting at home seem to be mileage -(bumps) ? Accordingly, the only difference between running normal Jamestown, and the latter are ? bumps?

Having seen by previous post, it is indeed a 93, OMC? And if so "Spitfire Electronic Ignition"?
If so, you may need the OMC Diagnostic equip. But first check the fire at the no. 1 plug: bright
blue? For now we will all assume that your fuel system is clean and fresh, including ALL filters etc.

I will absolutely agree with the previous post, above said, that it seems to be perhaps a ground fault, However, with proper fuel & spark, this leads down the road to ign. timing. Knowing that it would not crank after your return home, and it would before at Jamestown, prior to your depature, rather points to a loose connection in the harness, or perhaps misplaced tiiming, distributor etc. if indeed you have one.

My bet will be a loose wire - search accordingly. If you can not isolate the problem shortly, I will be happy to give you the no of our local OMC King Cobra guru, knowing that he can certainly solve your dilemma quick!

Randy

Tidbart
05-28-2002, 09:04 PM
I have a 95 18 w/a fuel injected Merc. To make a long story short, I had ignition problem and went to 3 separate rated mechanics with all the diagnostic tools. None of them could find the problem. I accidently found out the ignition switch was bad. I had similar guage problems and cutout at speed.
The switch was eighteen bucks. It happens to be a cheap switch. All the bouncing around with key in the ignition along with a tightly wound harness beat up the switch. When I took it out the tabs on the back were loose. They are only held on by rivets and can't take much abuse. It is worth a look. It only takes five minutes to replace and can save a ton of time and/or money if it happens to be the problem. Good luck. You may need it.
Bob

Donzigo
05-29-2002, 11:17 AM
I had a Hobbs oil pressure switch that was faulty giving a faulty reading to the ignition system that the oil pressure was too low at idle turing off my fuel pump. Check it out.

Brad Lyon
05-29-2002, 06:11 PM
Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I tend to agree with all of you regarding connections vibrating loose. However, I dont think it would have been from the bumps in the roads I think it was from my son and I playing Crazy Horses' CD to loud with the new sub-woofer.

I tried to call the repair shop with everyone's reccomendations but they were closed today. Prior to taking the boat in I checked several connections throughout the weekend but I only found one connection on the key switch loose. After I tightened it nothing changed. I will try to call them again tomorrow.

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts, any additional suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Brad

( Hoping they fix it by this weekend. Donzi time badly needed! )

Dalelama
05-30-2002, 03:18 PM
There should be an OIL PRESSURE SWITCH that closes when 3psi or more is reached (means the engine is running) if this saftey switch is NOT in the circut, the motor could stall, and the fuel pump(s) will continue to run fuel into/out of the motor (not too cool).

Check this switch... NOT the Oil press. SENDING unit... there'll be two.

I had this problem with my Merc 320EFI..... was pullin' out hair until I found it by mistake.

My money is on that switch.

Brad Lyon
05-30-2002, 06:23 PM
Well, I think it is going to get expensive now. The repair shop that I took it to spent three hours on it and he has no idea what is causing the problem. However he did say that I must have more than one electrical problem, oh great!

I had a thought to take it to a Ford dealer in the area so they could check the computer and such but their mechanic said that marine and auto units are not compatible. He said he used to work at a large boat dealer/service center a little further up north and that is where I should take it. I called them and it sounds like they have the computer test equipment. Major problem though, they are booked up for at least two to three weeks.

Brad

Rootsy
05-30-2002, 07:21 PM
since you have fire and fuel pressure it kinda seems like the injectors aren't getting the signal to fire from the puter eh. if there are individual injectors / runner you can remove the connector and see if you are receiving a signal to fire... Wish i was more familiar with this motor but i only have a wee bit of experience of which most has left my head. go for the ignition switch, it could solve a bunch of issues. being that things happen intermittently it very well could be the ignition switch. If the oil or temperature warning switch is going bad i'd think that it wouldn't limit your motor to 4000 rpm... that is more of an ignition advance or fuel delivery issue both controlled by the computer (distributorless ignition correct?). generally warning switches such as oil pressure and water temp are normally open or normally closed not somewhere in the middle. if it puts your mind at ease and you want to check em out... normally closed switches, ground the wire to the block, normally open remove the wire to form an open circuit. guess it might help if you had an OMC service manual for the motor for troubleshooting the computer. is this motor a speed density, mass air flow, or throttle plate position motor or neither one? if something is wrong with that sensor then that'd cause the flatness at 4000 .. this sensor gauges the amount of air entering the motor to deliver the correct amount of fuel through the injectors. Realistically all of the ignition advance should be in or close to it by 4000 rpm. if you have a bad voltage amount to these sensors for some odd reason this could screw them up since they are based on a potential difference that is read by the computer.... lot of things to look at i reckon... would be easiest to hook it to the diagnostic computer and see what it gives ya. I am sure there are more marina's around tahn just the one you checked that have the equipment, especially downstate... might try toledo beach, large marina near monroe, plus god knows how many south and north of detroit... did you give spencer's in houghton lake a shout?

Donzigo
05-30-2002, 08:55 PM
Oooops, yes there are two switches, one is the oil pressure switch and the other is the switch to turn off the fuel pump. THAT"S THE SWITCH that went bad on my starboard engine. I was down range at Ft. Myers, Florida (120 miles away), it really frightened me not to be able to find the problem. It was intermittent, the worst kind. whenI got back, someone causally mentioned it and that was the problem. Donzi witches are hard to hunt down.
Richard

Brad Lyon
05-30-2002, 09:38 PM
Jamie, Lots of things to think about! I did contact Spicers in Houghton Lake, that is where the mechanic at Dean Arbour Ford in West Branch worked and he said they had all of the test equipment. I did buy an ignition switch at Auto Zone tonight along with a pigtale for the Bosch fuel pumps, I thought I would try to just put 12VDC to them and see if they just pump fuel into an empty can. Something the mechanic said that puzzles me, he said he had better luck when he took the fuel tank in my boat out of the system and hooked up a separate six gal. fuel tank.

I guess I will go up this weekend and keep plugging away at it. If I come up with more dead ends I will take it to Spicers. Speaking of Houghton Lake it better be fixed by the time Bud Fest comes around! For those who do not live in Michigan Bud Fest means beer, boats and lots of naked women and not necessarily in that order.

Oh well, with the election comming up I won't be able to go back up for a couple of weeks anyway.

Cross your fingers for me!

Brad

Donzified
05-30-2002, 09:52 PM
Gas tanks have a small #100 mesh stainless steel conical filter on the end of the pick up tube, right befor the 90 Deg. fitting on the top of the tank.I have had to work on this too many times on too many of my boats.

Just grab a tool and walk towards the sea wall....An occasion for every boat....a boat for every occasion.

harbormaster
05-30-2002, 10:15 PM
Brad,
You running for office??

ToonaFish
05-30-2002, 10:57 PM
Sounds like his platform is beer, boats, and naked women...

He'll be President with that kind of leadership!

Bunches,

Celene 'Registered'

Tidbart
06-03-2002, 04:31 PM
Any new yet, Brad?
Bob

Brad Lyon
06-03-2002, 07:03 PM
As a matter of fact Bob, yes there is new news!

I got a call from the mechanic I took the boat to Friday morning. He said he was unable to find and fix the problem. He said he had spent three hours on it and could not make any headway but he was only going to charge me for one hour of his time. So I gave him my credit card number and I asked him to put the boat outside of his gate and I would pick it up after they closed for the day. I got there at 5:45 to pick up the boat. Then it took me about 15 minutes to get the boat to my cottage and unpack my truck. By 6:02 I had the boat running.

I thought I would try a few things before I took it to another place to be looked at. I purchased a new key switch and some other things. Before I attempted anything I put the earmuffs on the outdrive, connected the hose and turned on the water. Than I connected the battery charger to battery 1 figuring he ran the battery down trying to get it started. Just for the fun of it, I turned the key to see if she would start and she started like there had never been a problem. All right what gives! I thought to myself. I turned the key off and then tried to start it again, vroooom she started again without a problem. Now I am thinking “what in the Red Wings hockey puck” (censored) is going on! This time I left it running for about two minutes then turned it off. Took the battery charger off and tried to start it again and she just cranked and cranked but would not start like it did before. Put the battery charger back on and she started and ran like a champ. This time while it was running I unclipped one of the battery chargers leads and she started to die! I quickly put the clip back on the battery and she continued to run. WHAT THE (explanative)! All of this because a dead battery.

I have two batteries that are wired to a large red/orange and black switch, common right? Two large red wires from the switch go to the batteries, one each. Then there is a large red wire that goes back into the engine compartment. In addition to that there is also a red wire (about a size 10 gage) that is attached to battery number 1 and it has an inline fuse for all of the accessories like the cigarette lighter, radio and such.

I replaced battery number 2 this year and have been running off of that battery for the few times that I have had a chance to run the boat. Other than Lake Cumberland I was only out on the boat for maybe a half of an hour the weekend prior to going to Kentucky. Battery number 1 had a full charge the first time I took the boat out this season because I charged it with the battery charger. There in lies my problem and why my boat is wired this way is beyond me. Since the switch was on battery 2, only battery 2 was getting recharged when I used the boat. That means each time I turned on the radio or used the blower or lights or anything else it was draining battery 1 without a chance to get recharged. And the difference between Lake Cumberland and home was time and not bumps in the road or playing Johns music to loud.

So what was happening was I was cranking the boat with battery 2 but the fuel injection system and the computer was getting starved of much needed voltage from battery 1. Why on earth wouldn’t this wire with the inline fuse be connected to the same outlet wire that goes to the engine? That way it wouldn’t make a difference which battery you were running off of, the computer and accessories would be getting voltage from the same source, and when the engine was running it would recharge that same source.

Why the mechanic I paid $70 to did not think of this or check for this problem I don’t know, he is a trained mechanic I am not. I stumbled across this simply because I put a battery charger on battery 1, and by god she fired right up. So the end result of this nightmare is to either run off of one battery only or rewire that small wire to the side of the battery switch that goes to the engine.

Brad

(Feeling kind of stupid, but not as dumb as a trained mechanic! But I did get lots of DONZI time in this weekend. :D :D :D :D :D :D )

Woodsy
06-03-2002, 09:12 PM
Brad!!

WAY TO GO!! Glad your back on the water! Tell Kim & the boys Princess & I said hello!!

Woodsy the Racoon!! :D :D

Donzi Jenn
06-03-2002, 09:41 PM
Since the AOTH II, Ranman and I decided that your avatar needed to be updated .... :D :D :D

http://www.donzi.net/photos/ROak_woodsy.jpg

Tidbart
06-04-2002, 05:17 AM
Congrats, Sometimes the simple things are hard to find. I had 3 mechanics with diagnostic computers spend about 7 hours on my boat for not. I got lucky and found the bad ignition switch in 15 minutes, just by chance. These things happen, they are only human and not all knowing. On the other hand, they are charging $70/hr, hmmm.
Anyway, best of luck. Enjoy.
Bob

Digger
06-04-2002, 07:41 AM
Brad, that is fantastic! what a great feeling that must be to have it figured out...well done!

waleyetwo
06-04-2002, 08:07 AM
way to go donzi jenn.i'll be sending the pic"s of aoth soon just have to get of my butt :confused:

Mustang Susie
06-04-2002, 08:33 AM
Jenn,
That is one of the funniest avatars I've ever seen... and sooooo perfect for Woodsy :p :p

Mustang