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Hornetman
05-12-2000, 09:40 AM
Hey gang just got back from 1 week in Antigua, and 1 week sail from there to Newport RI onboard the 107' dream (sailboat). Who knew you could spend $500.00 on
"rum punch" in 5 1/2 days?
Anyhow as of Easter weekend the Hornet has a dry roof over it's head and I'm picking up the 427 at my buddies warehouse this weekend. Carb,& flame arrestor, distributor, starter, alternator, & exhaust manifolds will go on the motor immediately. New Bennet dual piston sport tabs, steering, shifter and throttle cable also going in. Now shopping for fuel pump, water pump(s)?, heat exchanger? engine cooling fittings, pulleys, etc.
Does anyone have an opinion on cooling? Fresh vs, raw water? (I'm ocean bound) Also can I use a standard auto style thermostat housing if I'm fresh water cooling or am I going to have to have a special housing? I'm planning on running the raw water directly into the manifolds....Or can I fresh water cool the manifolds and just pump the raw water from the heat exchanger straight to the risers? (Glenwoods)
Any help advice would be greatly appreciated.

BTW hey GEO, GENE D. Frank et al, it's been a while just wanted to say hi hope all is well with all of you.

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Steve A. (Hornetman)

[This message has been edited by Hornetman (edited 05-12-2000).]

AVickers
05-12-2000, 10:46 AM
Closed-circuit fresh-water cooling would probably be best, but it'll add weight and complexity to your boat.

Run 50/50 ethelyne-glycol in the engine w/ 140-160 degree theromstat. (Too hot and you'll end up having to clean out the heat exchanger frequently.) This will, however, be a pressurized system.

Run a heat exchanger on your oil too.

Raw water through cast iron exhausts. I don't think a "normal" heat exchanger would be able to keep up w/ the heat generated by the exhaust pipes... Cast Iron represents more weight, but running salt water through aluminum pipes will eat them up. I know a guy who has an old raw-water Trojan w/ aluminum risers and they lasted only four or five seasons in the salt water -- replaced them with cast iron and as far as I know, they've been fine ever since...

Forrest
05-12-2000, 12:22 PM
Oh boy, it's time to spend some cash, Steve! If you have a new and expensive engine, go with fresh water cooling - you just can't go wrong. You can go with what is called a "half" system, which uses fresh water to cool the block and heads, or a "full" system, which also cools the exhaust manifolds. What you will need is a copper and bronze heat exchanger with enough cooling capacity and the correct hose fittings for your requirements. Obviously you will need greater cooling capacity for a full system. Also, most likely you will need a special thermostat housing as well. The style of the thermostat housing may vary depending if you choose a full or a half system. A freshwater cooling system will give you a very stable engine temperature that is higher than that of a raw water cooling system. Since internal-combustion engines create mechanical energy from heat generated from the conversion of fuel, the higher the combustion chamber temperature, the more energy will be produced for the same amount of fuel. That is why almost all cars these days run with a 195-degree thermostats. There is a limit of coarse, and that is the thermal design limit of the engine components like the block, piston, rings, etc.

Ok what does all of this mean? With a closed cooling system, you can run a 160- or 180-degree thermostat, just like in your car or truck. With a raw water cooling system, you must run a 142-degree thermostat to keep the salts and minerals from precipitating out of the raw water and on to the cooling system passages in the engine. Here is something that I found digging through some old text books on marine corrosion. One-quarter-inch layer of rust (iron oxide) is equal to three inches of cast-iron in heat transferability! Rust is a great heat insulator, and you don't need that in your engine.

Anyway, after all this being said, why am I removing the circulation pumps from the small-block Chevrolets in my Magnum and replacing them with by-pass crossover kits using 142-degree thermostats from Stainless Marine? Well, the way I see it, small-block engines in such a heavy boat turning high rpm just don't last that many hours. These things will wear out long before they rust out. As for the benefit of thermal efficiency with a closed cooling system, it boils down to sheer economics - the circulation pumps on those engines leak and need replacement and the heat exchangers are expensive, not to mention it not worth converting an engine to fresh water cooling once it when it been run in salt water. Maybe when I replace the engines I may re-think the situation. For now, its raw water cooling in the Magnum. On the other hand, I am running fresh water cooling in both my 16- and 18-foot Donzis. The 16 has a half system and the 18 has a full system. The full system actually cools the GIL manifolds as well as the engine and raw water flows only through the heat exchanger and the stainless riser pipes - hoses everywhere! Believe it or not, couple of years ago when I removed the original 26-year old 302 engine from my 1972 16 Donzi that had been run 90% of the time in salt water with about 1200 hours on it, that old engine was not worn out! It had been freshened up around 1980 with new rings and bearings, but the real reason for the tear down back then was to clean the cooling passages that were clogged with rust. Well anyway, in 1996 rust had finally eaten it's way through to the #5 cylinder while on one excursion, but that old F-word engine still got me back to the boat ramp on the other seven. After I tore it down, I gave the crank rods and pistons to a good 'ol boy here at work and they are now running around in an old Ford pickup truck somewhere in north Florida - just as the came out of that old rusty block. Needless to say everything else went to the junk yard.

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Forrest

[This message has been edited by Forrest (edited 05-12-2000).]

BERTRAM BOY
05-12-2000, 12:58 PM
Steve,
I have to agree with A. Vickers and Forrest on this one. I know that you are probably thinking "great... now I'm adding more weight and complication to my boat..not to mention you will probably lose a couple of m.p.h. off the top end. But do you really want to run seawater through that beautiful 427? You can't exactly run down to the junk yard and find another one,can you? Fresh water cooling. That's my vote. But then again It's easy to spend your money.
BERTRAM BOY

rayjay
05-12-2000, 02:04 PM
Fresh water cooling means you can run AL heads, which save weight and allow you to use a higher compression ratio with out getting detonation because they cool better. They would save you 35 - 50#'s depending on the application, almost enough to cover the weight of the closed system. And good AL heads can really wake up the way an engine runs. YES! More POWER! rj

[This message has been edited by rayjay (edited 05-12-2000).]

Rob
05-12-2000, 06:03 PM
Rayjay-Aluminum 427 Ford heads? You really are spending Steve's money now. The only place I know to get those is from Carroll Shelby Enterprises-and you can't believe the price. You can actually buy a complete aluminum 427.

Go to his web site and take a look. It will give you a whole new perspective on what expensive is in terms of engines.

Frank Civitano
05-12-2000, 07:41 PM
Thought you fell off the Earth? How are you ? Steve you gotta cath a ride on the new and improved Donzi 22 ZX with just a dad over 500hp and a 30 pitch Factory prop. Were now near the 80mph mark. Now your motor? are you going to run fresh (lake) or saltwater. Do what I did run a Flush kit, Keep the extra weight off. After every run start and flush. This will protect your Outdrive and your exhaust? Even on a closed system your drive and exhaust are not closed. Plus room is a factor. Glad to see you back. If your ever down this way give me a call.

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Frank Civitano

GeneD
05-13-2000, 12:13 AM
Steverino,
I have a few things on my mind.
One; if you are using that 427 side oiler, YES...fresh water cool.
Forrest has a point about high revving boat engines. And it is the same attitude I have taken. Run it until the water jackets are blown. But the 427? That needs to be preserved.
And Forrest...That education in the Keys has really paid off. For all of us!
Two; there is a place on LI that specializes in this. Sen-Dure, in Bayshore I think. They make entire conversion kits that are very easy to install. And relatively inexpensive.
Third; go see my dad on LI (Coram) and he will give you two heat exchangers for free. Off my old sport fisherman. And anyone else for that matter. Contact me if interested.
Fourth; if I come up for the Poker Run in NYC and are forced to carry you as a passenger, I will never live you live it down. So get down and get funky and get that boat operational!!!!
Antiqua huh? Hope you got lots of pics and stories!
BTW, my local surplus joint has some K-Planes that need to be on your boat.

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GeneD
007
Melbourne, Florida

[This message has been edited by GeneD (edited 05-13-2000).]

[This message has been edited by GeneD (edited 05-13-2000).]

BERTRAM BOY
05-13-2000, 09:09 AM
I'm no Ford expert, but I don't believe that 427 marine engines are side oilers. I think that they are all top oilers. Comments Please....
BERTRAM BOY

Frank Civitano
05-13-2000, 09:16 AM
They are Top oilers, I had one in a Cobra,1967 KR Shelby Mustang. 427 corvette were side oilers.

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Frank Civitano

Frank Civitano
05-13-2000, 04:40 PM
Hi Scott. Sorry about that after vette it was supposed to be a ? mark. Who made a side oiler? I know it wasn't a shelby 427.

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Frank Civitano

GeneD
05-13-2000, 09:25 PM
Hey, I don't even know what a side oiler is. Aren't they the old Ford race motors?
I had a Ford guy over here last night and that is what he told me.
Someone out there knows becuase I remember someone talking about a side oiler.
Motorheads, you listening???

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GeneD
007
Melbourne, Florida

harbormaster
05-14-2000, 03:47 AM
This is one thing I can answer on.

There WAS a 427 Ford SIDE oiler engine.
I know for a fact that they were put in some of the AC Cobra's by Carrol Shelby

The Harbormaster

Frank Civitano
05-14-2000, 06:52 AM
I know the stock 427 shelby didn't . The AC cobra maybe? That was set up for racing , More torque and HP. My Mustang was a top oiler that was a ford 427, Carol Shelby set up all differant ways, He was an artist in auto engines.

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Frank Civitano

rayjay
05-15-2000, 09:19 AM
Rob,

Edelbrock makes some AL FORD Big Block heads, low to high rise, that are priced just a "little" more than their SBC heads (check SUMMIT). Lighter, and finally someone made FORD heads with better exhaust ports. And, if you have ever priced FORD speed equipment for BBF's then you know all parts, even stock parts, are expensive when compared to the equivalent Chevy part. And if you can afford (no pun intended) it, DOVE ENGINEERING makes full AL FORD engines all the way up to an AL SOHC ("Cammer"), which with the 428 crank would come in at 454 cubes and weigh not much more than a SBC! One of those with a blower would look great in the back of a boat.

Frank,

What Mustang do you have with a 427? Must be rare and interesting. From what I remember, most 427 Cobra's and GT500KR's came with 428's. I used to have a '65/'66 GT350/"K" (combo, built from two crashed cars) that I road raced until I realized I was not as talented as I thought I was. Made a great street car, after all Car & Driver described the first GT350 as "last year's clapped out race car with mufflers(?)". So I did exactly that. Wish I still had it.

Well, back to DONZI's...

rayjay

[This message has been edited by rayjay (edited 05-15-2000).]

[This message has been edited by rayjay (edited 05-15-2000).]

Frank Civitano
05-15-2000, 09:36 PM
The car was My fathers car handed down to me, The car was white with blue stripes and blue interior, The motor was a 428 at first, Then we put in the 427 More hp. I flipped the car over in 1972, Then I bought my Mach1 Mustang Ram/Air 429 Pewter with black hood , Found myself in a Hospital 3 months later rolled that car 13 times at 115mph . Still have the scar on my chest were the stick shift went thru. So ended my Ford days? I wish I had both of those cars Today? Stubid Kid! The Mach made front page news and they put the car on display for a while out front of the High School? So my old man could hit me in the back of my head everytime we went buy it? Now I know why Im not all here?

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Frank Civitano

Hornetman
05-16-2000, 07:04 AM
OK guys here's the scoop on the 427.(I'm not the expert but this is what I've been told) The sideoiler and the top or center oiler can be built from the same block. The easiest way to tell the difference is by looking at the back of the engine. If you have two plugs in the block around the crankshaft you have a sideoiler. If the plugs are up around the camshaft you have a top oiler. The sideoiler lubricates the main bearings first, then oil passes to to the cam bearings. The top oiler oils the cam bearing first then oil passes to the main bearings. Sorry I don't have more info. but this is the abridged version.
Bertram boy, I've got to go check my engine to see exactly what Iv'e got. My original block was definately a top oiler, but I have it "in storage", and I started fresh with a replacement block when I did the resoration. I did not build the new engine and really am not sure what it is. I will let you guys know. As far as what the general rule is on the "marine" engines I also am not sure. Maybe the guys al Holman Moody will be able to answer. I'll give them a call sometime to try and find out what they were doing back in the late 60's. Lee H. should be able to answer my questions.

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Steve A. (Hornetman)

[This message has been edited by Hornetman (edited 05-17-2000).]

GEOO
05-16-2000, 07:50 AM
Hello Steve, Sounds like you had a great trip!!! It sound like your boat will be together before mine. Go for the closed cooling system on the engine, raw water on the exhaust. My engine won't be back until June!!! It better be worth the wait. GEOO