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Dalelama
03-16-2003, 09:08 AM
Got a few questions about my current Merc 320EFI rebuild project:

1. Aluminum heads? Good or bad idea? 95% saltwater usage.

2. Is there a stainless oil pan on the market?

3. Going w/ Stainless Marine exhaust / crossover-bypass setup... Alpha 1 drive... is a circ. pump necessary? I hear if the impeller is replaced regularly, it's not required.

4. Thermostat? Water temp here rarely gets below 72 degrees... air temp NEVER below 45.... with the aformentioned setup... is the t-stat really necessary?

5. Does anyone have experience with the Teague timing chain cover & cam-driven water pump?

6. Suggestions for new starter & alt? I'd like to dress it up with chrome or stainless ..

7. I have an extra 4 bolt short block, and numerour other MCM / SBC items available to a good home... any takers?

Any other tips - suggestions greatly appreciated... since I got it all apart, might as well address any & everything behind the back seat. I'm not going to replace the Alpha... happy with it for now.

THANKS!

Cuda
03-16-2003, 09:19 AM
Is it a new block you're starting with?

Dredgeking
03-16-2003, 09:59 AM
i wouldn't use aluminum heads in saltwater. there is too much potential for corrosion issues. i don't think the performance gains are worth it. a well ported set of iron heads will last a lot longer and give you excellent performance. i have alumin heads and plan to stay in fresh water as much as possible and flush like mad after any salt water use. much of my salt water is brackish, so not too bad.

if you have a decent set of exhaust manifolds you don't need, i'd like to work something out on those.

<small>[ March 16, 2003, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Dredgeking ]</small>

Dalelama
03-16-2003, 08:33 PM
Scott,

The stuff is in the hangar at Tamiami Airport.. come get it before it goes to the landfill!

Cuda.. using the origional 4 bolt block... only 300+ hours on the motor, and that's since 1987.

I do not plan on pumping up the HP, due to the Alpha situation... and no, I do not want to upgrade to the Bravo / TRS/ ect... there goes all the excess weight I'm sheddin' now.

Cuda
03-16-2003, 08:35 PM
That's why I was asking about if it was a new block or not. If it has never seen salt, put closed cooling on it before it does, and the aluminum heads will be fine. I installed CC last year. The kit was around $500, and only took a couple hours to install.

Cuda
03-16-2003, 08:39 PM
I guess you were typing your reply at the same time I was. :) Don't put closed cooling on the engine because the salt has already permeated the cast iron block. In that case, I would not put the aluminum heads on it. The two dissimaler metals in an electrolyte solution (salt water) is in essence making a battery.

MOP
03-16-2003, 09:24 PM
Keep the block wet the cast iron tends to blow up if let to dry out to much. Has that thing been flushed most its life? Thats getting iffy 87 till now don't go by hours, it the years that take tha toll in salt.

<small>[ March 16, 2003, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: M.O.P. ]</small>

Dalelama
03-17-2003, 07:55 AM
I prefer the raw water cooling.

Boat was a tender on a 103'Berger ... professionally maintained for ten years.

I always flush at least 15 mins... NEVER left in salt water... was stored at fresh water lake for a year... block looks really clean in water passages.... problem was with alum. intake.. light weight racing job... salt wore a hole in it... NOT from electrolysis!

Rootsy
03-17-2003, 09:16 AM
cylinder heads you say? Think Pro Action... very nice... for the price... and my flow data wasn't very far off of their numbers...

www.protopline.com (http://www.protopline.com)

CDMA
03-17-2003, 11:07 AM
I second the Protopline/Proaction line. Run CNC ported 72 CC/200CC runners on my "stock" little small block...a little overkill for the engine buit hey I can grow into them :)

Chris

Need rollers on that cam...

Woodsy
03-17-2003, 11:43 AM
If it were me...

Definitely fresh water cooling... longer engine life, stable engine operating temps...

Have your block hot tanked to get rid of any loose scale thats in the passages you can't see. If you lost an intake manifold, your block most certainly has some scale in it. I would seriously consider looking around for another block.

Salt does not "wear a hole" in any metal. Your damage was caused by corrosion, and that it a result of a chemical reaction between the salt and metal, in this case aluminum. Don't kid your self.

If you use fresh water cooling, you can go with plain aluminum heads, if you really have to have raw water in your motor, you could go with aluminum heads, just make sure they are hard anodized. Look at your wife's Calphalon cookware, that what the heads will look like.

Professionally maintained, doesn't really mean much. If the boat sat in a corrosive environment for 10 years, even if it s flushed there is some serious corrosion going on...


Woodsy

Rootsy
03-17-2003, 12:00 PM
HAS rollers on that cam :D

CDMA
03-17-2003, 12:40 PM
Rootsy...still going faster than you :)

Chris

Forget ducking where is my helmet? :D

Rootsy
03-17-2003, 02:01 PM
ahhhhh nothing like some healthy competition in the spring time wink

oh wait... i don;t stand a snowballs chance in...

forget the helmet... where's the parachute...

<small>[ March 17, 2003, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Rootsy ]</small>

Dalelama
03-18-2003, 01:49 AM
Woodsy........

What is a wife?
How much do they cost?
Where do you put it? eek!

CDMA
03-18-2003, 11:47 AM
My thoughts on SBC for Donzi's:

1) Aluminum heads are nice but really only if you have deep pockets and want 3-4 years at best out of them or you have FWC.

I have been very happy with the Protopline/Proaction series. From what I can find they rival the AFR heads in flow but are cast iron.

2) FWC vs Raw cooling: I go back and forth with this one and right now my boat is raw water cooled. I love the idea of the FWC and it sure does have advantages but it adds weight, complexity, cost and more things to break then a simple crossover.

3) You don't need a circulating pump if you use a crossover system. My favorite system out there is the Stainless marine preheat system. It runs the water through the manifolds before putting it in the engine. Helps lower the "cold water hot engine" shock when the water enters the engine.

4) Being where you are you might get away without a thermostat but I would still use one. It really is better to be sure the engine runs at the correct operating temperature. While with restrictors and so forth you might be able to do that having a thermostat helps speed up warm up. It is another thing to rust and replace but if you use the stainless marine crossover changing it once a season is a snap.

5) I have seen the Teague cam drive pump in use but I have no experience with it. I have been very happy with the merc belt drive pump that sits on the starboard lower front of the engine. I have found it works better with the
"stepped" mercruiser pulley that turns the pump a little slower, brings down the water pressure to where it should be, and still flows A LOT of water.

I have not been happy with the crank drive pumps. I have found they are hard to get aligned perfectly and I hate that thing wobbling on my crankshaft...that just can't be good from a vibrational point of view. Another reason I do not like the crank drive pumps is they spin the impeller at the same speed as the engine. Sure is a lot better in terms of impeller wear to spin the big merc one slower then that little tiny one fast.


Other thoughts:

After three engines and 3 drives in my boat I find myself constantly going back and forth between adding features ( EFI, FWC etc) and keeping it as simple as I can. These are great boats but the power plants live a hard life and the KISS principle has been very good for me so far.

If you really are going to do a complete rebuild depending what kind of power you are looking for you should consider building a stroker. Really a great all around combination.

Another real nice thing is a roller cam. I was on a pretty tight budget when I built my 383 so this one didn't make the list but some day I will do a retrofit. The power the roller cams get is considerably greater then what a comparable flat tappet cam can. I probably lost almost 40-50 hp by going with the flat tappet cam as opposed to the roller.

All that said I know you are running an alpha so a nice stock style 350 is probably your best bet.

Just fun to think :)

Chris

Stock....yeah....

Forrest
03-18-2003, 12:02 PM
Chris, if your crank-mount pump shakes that much, you must have some misalignment of the flange and pump shaft to the pump housing's bearing bore - or something! Is that bearing in there straight?

Also, solve you impeller wear problem with a Globe Rubber Works Blue impeller (http://www.globerubberworks.com/marine/impeller/linkimp.html). The work great.

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Forrest ]</small>

BigGrizzly
03-18-2003, 03:24 PM
Here are my thoughs If you want to have a longer living engine go closed cooling system. All my Donzis have them. even with the circ pimp and the extra 52 pounds total extra weight I actually gained speed and fuel economy on all including the blown 502. If you have a raw water system than NO aluminum cylinder heads or intake manifolda. Problem is when they eat through it dumps water in the crank case before you sea it then its motor time again. As for cams a roller doesn't have any advantages below 6000 Rpms. This was told to me by Babe Erson and Arni Ikenderian, "only use them if you have to". I do have a roller in my 502 because 454/502 have an oiling problen at idle and low speed-which is why Merc put them in their motos. All my other boats have flat tappets in them. Always use a thermostat or a well taylored restrictor. The Teague cam driven water pump puts more stress on the cam chaig and bearings. it is also a constant problem with oil leaks. No high performance guys I know will not use them. I have crank driven waterpumps on all my boats except the blower motor, it just won't fit. If you need more help call you still have my number.

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: BigGrizzly ]</small>

BUIZILLA
03-18-2003, 04:54 PM
Griz, I highly respect your opinion on this, but I have more recent personal testing time than I care to admit, comparing roller/flat tappet stuff on a BUNCH of my OWN engines, from my 7 sec S/C dragster, to my 13 sec street cars....I had to see, for myself, the advertised gains..
Rollers made more power, solid or hyd, in almost EVERY instance, with identical starting duration numbers. The more duration and lift, the more benefit a roller see's. Under 215* duration @ .050 and .280 lobe lift, there may be little, if any, benefit. As you well know, advertised duration numbers are, just that, advertised numbers, they don't mean squat at dinner time. The current lobe profiles (thanx to cad/cam) are light years ahead of technology of even 5-6 years ago. With the small .843 lifter that Chebby uses, it only seems reasonable that a roller is FAR superior to a flat tappet in tappet stress, ramp speed, and nose open duration, at least in MY experience and testing. When you use the .875 Ford or .906 Mopar diameters, it becomes less of an issue, but an issue nonetheless. I just spent over one solid year doing cam profile analysis for my SA LT-1 Nova and the results were phenominal in favor of the roller. The current issue of Super Chevy magazine recognizes my car as the fastest SA small block Chevy...EVER. This was mainly due to the roller cam testing we did, on our own vs. the flat tappet. Like you, I had a hard time believing how much BETTER the roller was, in both HP and torque from 2000 on up, but I am a believer today...

Rollers are KING, at least in my book...

The ONLY exception to this, might be the COMP XE series hyd. flat tappet, but they are rpm limited to about 5500 or so because the lifter is so *busy* between .006 and .100 lobe lift...

The COMP XE cam lobe is a dynamite profile for a boat or towing application, especially under .330 lobe lift.

Just my opinion, others may vary...

J

CDMA
03-18-2003, 05:40 PM
I agree with Jim. There is just no way around that roller cams make more power. I take entire courses in engine design and one of the fundamental ideas with a 4 cycle engine is that by increasing the time the valves are open increases power ( to a point and there are more factors but that is the simple version). In an ideal word you want a cam that will open the vales instantaneously and close them the same. You want a square lobed cam. But for obvious reasons you can't do this. So to increase the time of the valve open you want to increase the ramp angle of the cam so the valve opens fast, stays open, then closes fast. The bottom line is you want to increase the area of the cross section of the cam. The two commonly known ways of doing this is increasing duration and lift. But there is a third way. Take a square with both sides =1. Now take a triangle base =1 vertical =1. Even thought the lift ( side) and duration ( bottom) are the same the area in the object changes. More area= more air flow. So simply all things being equal ( duration and lift) a roller cam with its steeper ramps will make more power. It is just simple physics. You want to argue with Newton take it up with him :)

Forrest- Only a slight wobble in the pump but it still bothered me...so I ditched it in favor of the belt drive.

Chris

Woodsy
03-18-2003, 05:50 PM
Dalelama..

If you have avoided the whole wife thing... good for you! They are expensive, cost alot of money and usually cut into the boat budget quite a bit. Of course I am typing this while my girlfriend aka the Princess is not home... LOL! Check out a cooking store for those pans.

As far as camshafts go... Roller is KING! Roller allows the the ramp of the lobe to be alot steeper than your standard flat tappet. This opens and closes your valves much faster, and allows you to play with your durations.

Griz... If you your Aluminum heads are hard anodized, they will be fine for a raw water intake. Salt eats through your cast iron intake (and it will eventually), you will have the same point of failure. Canfield makes a great set of hard anodized heads.

Woodsy :D

smoothie
03-18-2003, 08:16 PM
...even with a roller and back down to the real world say 5400 rpm you will see about 25+ ponies with same spec cams(less friction) and as far as the alum. heads go they will run cooler so you can go a little higher on the compression and still run 93 octane,how much....nobody really knows for sure eek!

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: smoothie ]</small>

BUIZILLA
03-18-2003, 09:17 PM
Smoothie, dependent on chamber design, aluminum heads are *usually* good for .8 &gt; 1.0 more static compression before the knock sensor has equal *tickle* vs. it's iron counterpart. I think 10.8-11.0 w/alum heads on pump gas would be a stretch... 9.5-9.8 on iron and 10.5-10.7 on alloy would be acceptable w/93 octane.

J

waiting to see what Dale is gonna do now..

BigGrizzly
03-18-2003, 10:01 PM
It is obvious that you guys didn't read the 6000 RPM thing before you jumpted in. Again "if you don't need them don't use them" still stands this was told to me by a close friend whom I worked with for years Babe Erson. Yes he is the brother of Sig Erson and the First real designer of Erson cams and yes he is still alive. Like you said Jim the advertised specs at 0.050 don't mean squat not at dinner or any other tine they are just rough numbers for comparison . For my Clevland I have 8 cames and three have the same specs at 0.050 both onening and closing but that is where it ends. between the three there is 55 hp difference. Jim I wasn't going in to the attributes of lifter bores etc. Like you I have spent years doing the cam thing. Again under 6000 rpms is what we are talking about above that The alpha is milk toast.
Woodsy this is the second time Dale has eaten through his intake which has caused the problem. He does take good care of his stuff and as a piolot he knows the importance of matainance. I don't think he can find a hard anodized intake for his application. Like you said fresh water cooling (read this a closed cooling system). is the way to go. I beleive this for all applications. That is why I have one on all my boats including the Criterion with the blower.

Chris I had those courses before you were born. With a similar profile you couldn't possibly gain 40-50 HP as you stated simply by changing to a roller. Keep in mind the 6000 RPM limit. The the Price difference between a good cam and lifter kit and a retrofit cam and roller kit for your 383 motor is only $40 retail. Maybe you should waited another month before wasting your money on a flat tappet cam. Keep in mind the 6000 RPM limit.

I though we were keeping this in perspective to Dale's applications. I didn't know that this was a bring it up and shoot him down thread.

DUCATIF1
03-18-2003, 10:28 PM
If you are keeping this thing under 6K and what appears to be low budget set up, once again I will have to say why try and reinvent the wheel? As Buz stated above it takes a lot of testing to come up with proper combination. That also equates to a lot of money. Every magazine has done write up on that Comp Cam XE series cams and low dollar Vortec heads. Every test has put it in the REAL 375hp range and would be dead reliable. I have put same set up on in several cars including a otherwise stock 400 SBC that produced over 400 REAL hp. Everybody likes to buy exotic stuff which is great if you are willing to tune and have the money and knowledge to do so. Read the above replies; for everybody here there could be that many combos they want you to try out. Just be sure you know what else is involved with mods. NOTHING is bolt on that does not require additional mods in the world of high performance parts. Hey make it easy on yourself and copy a dyno tested combo unless you have the above experience and dyno access. As far as the roller cams I think they are worth their weight in gold at any RPM level and allow more radical profiles at streetable or should I say boatable levels. Why spend $1400 on AFR heads when you don't have the remaining $4000.00 of parts to support them in valvetrain and loer end components. Good luck Brian

CDMA
03-19-2003, 12:15 AM
Griz that is the point your classes were before I was born...with 20+ year old technology. You are arguing facts of physics and technology with nothing more then your opinions and "I know so and so who knew so and so and was related to...".

Funny how everyone else thinks the roller cam is better.

Chris

Oh and do me a favor your 18 vs mine...anytime....we will see who wasted money

<small>[ March 19, 2003, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: CDMA ]</small>

turbo2256
03-19-2003, 07:00 AM
My .02 .... Port a set of stock heads the newer Vortec ones work best. Go with a mild cam flat tappet for economic reasons roller if the budget allows. The HP is mainly in the cylinder heads. Most over cam a set of stock heads and air flow just plane runs out and at that point you are over revving the engine and making no power. Most of the aluminum heads are for high RPM usage. They give better flow and better power but will not pack the cylinders with air as well as ported cast iron counterparts in low lift low RPM usage. The most flow with the least port volume always wins.

Rootsy
03-19-2003, 09:57 AM
a bit on anodizing, My assembly equipment is subjected to isopropyl alcohol spray on a 24/7 basis. all of my jig plates and most of my tooling are aluminum and i have them CLEAR anodized. It is tough as heck, withstands a severely corrosive environment, is scratch resistant and you can hardly even tell anything is applied to the surface.

on the subject of Manley "OVERPRICED" valves... they are ALL manufactured by EATON... what you purchase with the EATON name on it for 1/5th the money is the exact same thing you get in the manley packaging... they even utilize the same dang part numbers!

It's also been shown that the performer rpm, and now the performer rpm airgap will flow as well as and make just about as much power as the victor jr intakes but without the severe loss in low end torque...

I tend to prefer hypereutectic pistons due to their properties and performance... as well as cost. if you want to spend some money you can go with Keith Black KB193 D-Dish Quench pistons and using a .039 x 4.125 head gasket with a 64 cc combustion chamber you'll end up at a 0.063 cold quench distance and 9.12:1 static compression ratio. A bit cheaper are the KB Silv-o-lite H1479's which are a flat top with 4 valve reliefs. Using the same head gasket and combustion chamber volume you'll have a 0.084 cold quench distance and end up with a 9.27:1 static compression ratio. These numbers are utilizing a 4.030 bore, stock sbc 9.025 deck, 3.48 stroke and 5.700 rod. you can purchase basically the same pistons with a different compression height to obtain roughly the same CR with a 383.

As for balancing.. it is nice but adds 150 - 200 to the price tag and really isn't required unless you plan to turn 6000 plus on a sustained basis...

i'm not even gonna touch the flat vs roller issue... let's just say i have a roller... i have witnessed the differences, mild to wild... in the lab, on the puter and on the dyno... but to each their own... and it basically boils down to money, where you want to make power, how much, and streetability.

Vortec heads are good pieces, especially for the price! will require a unique intake manifold not compatible with previous sbc manifolds. If you go with anything over .480 valve lift you'll need machining for the retainer to guide clearance. If you end up going roller you'll have to have the spring pockets and guides modified for the dual springs to fit and the use of teflon seals... in which case i'd look at proaction for competative pricing...

The TBOLT IV has no rev limiter built into the module. The TBOLT V does and it makes up it's own iginition curve... hence you will need to use an aftermarket rev limiter if you desire one.

Dalelama
03-19-2003, 10:26 AM
Thanks to all for the advice....

No need to "pump it up", keepng the ALPHA1

Not sure about the closed cooling, I know it's a better idea, I want to keep it simple. Plans are for the STAINLESS MARINE exhaust & cooling plumbing...

Intake will get aircraft epoxy coating in water passage... worth the cost... it's guaranteed!

Last chance for the ultra hi-rise,direct port EFI manifold... they jus' don't make 'em anymore, except for Silver Crown sprints....
Think LT1 on steriods. :mad:

Cris... remember, Griz has forgotten more than you now know! :D

Motor apart.. Jim, expect a call soon... you too Brownie, Griz & Baxter!

Thanks again!

CDMA
03-19-2003, 11:10 AM
Hey guys don't get me wrong I have the utmost respect for Grizz and I know he has forgotten more about engines then I will ever know...that being said this is still a public forum we are all entitled to have our own opinion and while I may not know it all there are some "facts" here I just don't agree with Grizz on and I am entitled to call them out if I see fit. I try to back up what I know with scientific tangible reasoning and facts not debatable reasoning.

From how I see it saying that "so and so" did it means didly squat to me. The best Naval Architects built the Titanic...but just cause they did it didn't mean it was right.

Chris

:) If this is a bad thread then what is a good one...the one where no one says what they think? wink

turbo2256
03-19-2003, 11:23 AM
Madpoodle,


Are you anywere near Stuart Fla

Woodsy
03-19-2003, 11:38 AM
Grizz & Poodle..

There seems to be a misconception with you guys regarding roller cams.. It seems you think they are for a high rpm application only. This simply isn't true. The main advantage of a roller cam is quicker opening & closing. This is accopmlished by being able to use a steeper ramp on your cam lobe. This can give you ALOT of advantages over your basic flat tappet cam, one being less friction... less power to turn the cam = more power at the crankshaft, regardless of engine rpm. The other advantage is that by being able to open & close the valves quicker, you can play with your torque & hp curve for any specific rpm.


Rootsy...

I think all aluminum should be anodized... :) I didn't know about the Eaton P/N's.. that is some great info to know.

Dalelama..

Perhaps instead of rebuilding this engine, maybe you should consider a GM crate motor.. very cheap, extremely reliable, and brand new with a warranty! I would examine your costs thoroughly. It always cost more to rebuild a motor than you think... check out www.1800runsnew.com (http://www.1800runsnew.com) They have a 325HP base GM motor, brand new, 1 year warranty for $2859... I think it will cost you more to rebuild your motor...

Woodsy

Still waiting to see who is faster.. CDMA or Grizz... LOL!

Rootsy
03-19-2003, 11:51 AM
this was a very interesting article that i found recently... on the HT383 from GM Performance Products... and it's power potential...

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/66278/index.html

if you used the same components you couldn't hardly build the same motor for the money on your own... i believe it is available as a shortblock also :D

BUIZILLA
03-19-2003, 12:25 PM
Good find Rootsy...

J

Rootsy
03-19-2003, 02:28 PM
Just another tidbit...

Most of your OE AND AND AND aftermarket lifters are also manufactured by Eaton and sold under different names... such as comp and crane and so on and so forth...

BigGrizzly
03-19-2003, 06:42 PM
I went over to Grimes after work today to check on sone engine stuff. I was talking to Garry and Warren Jhonson and asked about Manley valves. I was told as of last april Manley was making his own. Appearently there was som financial troubble in the Eaton and Johnson lifter camps and they couldn't make their demands so Manley bailed. He chose to keep the same part numbers to avoid confusion.

Rootsy
03-19-2003, 08:59 PM
i do know that on lifters Eaton is backlogged... crane retrofit rollers for the 351W are a year behind... there are none to be found anywhere...

and i think dale is making a logical choice.. especially with the alpha... 350 at the crank is about as far as i am really comfortable going on a gen I... i'd push a tad more through the GEN II but not much...

turbo2256
03-20-2003, 06:43 AM
Madpoodle,
What dont I want.

Roller cam advantages a bit less friction and lobe designs that give a broader usefull RPM range. Disadvantage is their pricy.

Forrest
03-20-2003, 10:04 AM
Engine building is kind of like politics. No matter what anyone else says they ain't going to change your mind, and you ain't goin' to change theirs!

For what it is worth, the last engines I built for my two Donzis and Magnum were built kind of old school and on a tight budget, but the all seem to run just fine. They all use KB hyperutectic pistons, Crane flat-tappet cams - mainly because $150 gets you the whole kit, it works well, and I support Florida based business. ARP fasteners everywhere. The 383 in the X-18 has an old set of 441 heads with Ferrea stainless valves running flat tops. The 383s in the Magnum run Dart Iron Eagle heads with 64cc chambers and 200 cc intake runners and dish pistons. The 302 Ford runs late '80s big-chamber smog heads and pop-up pistons. I don't remember the chamber size now. All of these engines run aluminum dual-plane intakes (Edelbrock 289 Performer on the 302 and Wieand Stealth on the 383s), but both Donzis run close cooling systems. Since I run in the salty coastal waters on the Florida Gulf, I'm sure that I better pitch out the intakes on the Magnum in the next couple of years. On things is for sure though, all of these engines seem to run pretty well and have proven to be reliable. I'm sure that I could have thrown more money at 'em all and extracted as few more ponies out of each engine, but for me it wasn't worth the extra expense . . . and if you don't build your engine just like mine, then you're just a big . . .

----------------

Forrest

Installin' a boat lift north of the Ochlocknee

Forrest
03-20-2003, 04:16 PM
That's right Scott, and I'm going to beat her if she sets one of those 20-foot long 10" diameter piles in crooked. eek! :D :D :D

---------------
Forrest - with a Florida DEP exemption letter in hand. :cool:

<small>[ March 20, 2003, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Forrest ]</small>

Scott Pearson
03-20-2003, 07:47 PM
Cant we all just get along......... :p


(NJ)Scott

turbo2256
03-21-2003, 07:23 AM
Madpoodle I think the problem is fixed