Blackhawk briefing

[boatnut]

Hi Guys, can one of you please briefly describe the performance and handling attributes of the Blackhawk versions of the Classic 22? I've been told the engine/drive package (502/BravoIII Blackhawk) is situated more for surface running props (duo-props I assume). How does the Blackhawk Drive differ from the regular Bravo III?Are the Blackhawk 22's different in any way other than having this drive package installed? I previously had a 22 with a 330 TRS package, is the Blackhawk significantly different in low-end or top-end handling? I would guess speed is improved??
Any insight would be appreciated, thank you.

[roadtrip se]

Boatnut,

This package is rare and very different from the standard 22 Classic. I've spent a lot of time researching and driving them. The performance and the application of this drive is very different from the typical outdrive.

I would start by searching the archives of this board, as the merits and detractions of this package have been discussed many times previously.

Another bit of caution, the mis-information and opinions on this boat vary widely. Take the information with a grain of salt and realize that you must do your own research and talk to some folks, then make up your own mind.

Please feel free to drop me a line if you would like and I would be happy to discuss my knowledge of the blackhawk with you.

Todd
somewisbey@earthlink.net

[Donzi Blackhawk]

I love my Hawk! Catch me if you can!

Bryant

[riverrat]

well said Bryant..

[blackhawk]

I sum in up like this. The blackhawk is a "driver's boat". It is not something you throw the keys to your buddy or girlfriend. There is a definite learning curve with the boat.

But, once you feel comfortable behind the wheel it is a blast to drive. The boat is very loose and fast.

Two things I would recommend with the blackhawk. External steering and 280 K-planes. Both of these made the boat much safer and easier to drive. I may be trying a set of rocker plates to further improve the handling of my boat(hopefully).

My only complaint with the boat is in "sloppy" conditions with waves coming from all directions the boat can be a handful. I think the average person would just slow down but I just can't do it! Get the boat in waves with rythem and it's hammer down and hang on. :)

I have had my blackhawk for 4 years and I like it more every year. Every winter I tell myself I am going to sell it and get something bigger with a cuddy. Then I take it out for the first time in the spring and forget all about those thoughts.

Feel free to e-mail me with any questions.

[waleyetwo]

hey blackhawk if you try those rockers let me know how you like them.i've been thinking of trying them myself.they say it gives you a little bit more speed.

[waleyetwo]

oh and i love my blackhawk also. wink

[blackhawk]

Will do Waleye. If they don't work I'll be eating some crow in front of Woodsy!!! :D

[Woodsy]

BlackHawk...

You will not be eating crow all that bad. While they are great for creating rocker, I don't think they will work that greate for creating hook in your application. At least not enough to justify thier cost anyway. You can always sell them to me when your done with them... I need them to create some rocker! LOL!


The BlackHawk is an AWESOME machine. But like BlackHawk said, its NOT a boat for just anyone. It's a mistress like no other, and demands your attention at all times. They run fast, and loose. They do not like anything other than WOT. At speeds under WOT they are known to porpoise quite a bit, so you have to use your trim tabs and adjust them to control the attitude of the boat. The more seat time you have in the boat, the more you will like it.

Woodsy Von BlackHawk :D

<small>[ March 07, 2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Woodsy ]</small>

[boatnut]

First of all I want to thank all of you for providing answers to my Blackhawk questions. It is great to find a Forum that 1) is Donzi based and 2) has experienced knowledgable participants
(that know how to have fun).

I tried to search for previous Blackhawk threads (as some of you suggested) and found some but either the sites linkages are not working or I have local problems that result in not being able to open or read these archived posts? I do have a conclusion and question I think will be interesting and I am very interested to get your opinion on. However I first want to (at the risk of making this post too long) give you a brief background of my boating and Donzi experience to establish some credibility with you being I am a new member.

I fell in love with Donzis in the late 60's and purhased my first (1967 18 2+3) in 1970. I have owned one ever since and that probably is a record for a west coast guy as for many years I always had the wierd (but most beautiful) boat amongst all the Calfornia flat-bottom v-drives etc. etc. I next acquired a 1969 (in '73) 18 2+3 that my son and I still have and use. It is white with black stripes, H & M powered and is immaculate and original in every detail right down to all the H & M decals etc. The lower end of this Holman and Moody engine and the guts of the Volvo drive have never been apart in 34 years of usage, amazing testamony to those products. And we don't baby it, there is a decal on the dash that states "when in doubt gas it" which is the rule to move a Donzi through rough water. Probably the best speedboat ever produced. I also had a 1982 22 classic (prior to them having windshields, I still believe windshields do not belong on these beautiful hulls) that also was perfect and I made a severe mistake by selling it to make a small profit to a Lake Tahoe collector that already had seven Donzis. This boat had a 330 TRS package and was a 65MPH boat. I got so absorbed in the "Aronnow offshore" thing, that a partner and I mortgaged the kitchen sink and raced a Magnum hull with two Z28 small blocks in the offshore circuit in the mid-70's. We were the high-point production boat on the west coast circuit (POPRA/APBA)in 1975. And of course I've had a few go fast smooth water boats also. So I've owned, maintained, raced, and broke my share of boats. Once, when visiting Donzi when they were still in Maiami and owned by the Chisholms, I joined them in a test run of an 18 about to be shipped to Italy (Donzi did a lot of European business then). This boat had a small block Chevy and one of Volvo's hand-made speedmaster lower units on a 250 or 270 drive
(the standard lower unit on these drives limits any boat/motor combination to 55-57 MPH). This 18 was being tuned and prop'd for a cost-was-no- object buyer that wanted to have the fastet Donzi on the Med. We were seeing speeds in the high 70's (78 if I recall correctly). And Donzi's chief tech told me that it was a touchy area as the hull design gets into serious chine-walking if you go much faster.

This (finally, hang in there guys) gets me to my thoughts on the Blackhawk discussions that I just heard about. Based on my small amount of knowledge of this boat, I think it basically is the standard 22' hull with a surfacing drive and sufficient HP to achieve a speed capability of approx 80-90 MPH. Of course plates/tabs/rockers are added to assist (or compensate). My belief is that the 22 is an even more beautiful 18, but with the same bottom/strake design --- a longer running surface which helps in all aspects of performance--- but the same design. Getting to 80 with stability in a deep-vee hull is difficult but easy compared to getting to 90 -- 100 is an order of magnitude more difficult than 90. Length helps a lot if you have enough HP to push it. Deep-Vee hulls (we will ignore tunnels etc.) have had lots of enhancements over the years (steps etc.) to allow them to reach these speeds with some level of stability and predictability. The 22 doesn't have them.
I wonder if the Blackhawk is pushing the 22 too far past the edge of the envelope that it can handle. I would value your opinion on this. I love the boat and I want another one, just not sure about the Blackhawk. I personally know Howard Arneson, and in the early days of developing his surface drive technology (after he funded the effort by negotiating his pool sweep royalties), he experimented with lots of boats (mostly on San Francisco Bay). The surface technology while being superior in eliminating drag and increasing speed did not work well at higher speeds on all hulls. Just food for thought. Sorry for the long post.

[Greg Maier]

Here are the two main differences (at least to my knowledge) between a 22 Classic and a 22 Classic Blackhawk.

1. The Blackhawk has rocker built into the hull
2. The Blackhawk has a higher X-dimension (not much room under the engine hatch)

The Blackhawk always came with the 502. Rumor has it that it came with the 502 because of the torque needed to get those tall, counter rotating props spinning when putting it into gear.

Most of the Blackhawks on this board are pretty much stock and do around 80 mph. I've never heard of one doing 90.

<small>[ March 09, 2003, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Greg Maier ]</small>

[Formula Jr]

From what I remember in prior discussions, there are two versions of the Blackhawk Boats. One was the Regular BlackHawk and the other was the BlackHawk Special/Limited Edition. The limited editions all were black with a hawk motif on the foredeck and have 14k gold plate on the Hardware.
All the Limited Edition Blackhawks, came with a cerification from Donzi that they would go at least 75 MPH off the showroom floor. Wheather or not there was a non-special, standard version, with the Merc 330/454 is still up in the air.

[Greg Maier]

That 75 MPH certification is an interesting tidbit that I have never heard before. Since the brochure said that "You will turn heads as she races by at over 80 mph" I would be pretty upset if it only went 75.

[Greg Maier]

Boatnut,

Here are the original sales brochures for the Blackhawk Limited

Blackhawk Brochure Page 1 (http://www.donzi.net/photos/blackhawkbrochure1.jpg)

Blackhawk Brochure Page 2 (http://www.donzi.net/photos/blackhawkbrochure2.jpg)

[roadtrip se]

Boatnut,

Let me chime in here again...

I have looked at the blackhawks in the past as a way to find more speed in a stock engine hull combo. They run 78-80 with no modifications.

The 22 hull can be a comfortable ride at 80+.
There are a quite a few of us doing this today.
My 500EFI boat with a shortie and steering runs in the low-80's without white knuckling it. I wouldn't throw the keys to just anyone though...

Greg, the blackhawk hull differences go further than the rocker and the high x dimension. The gas tank is set in the back of the boat to alter the CG. The k-planes are mounted higher on the transom. The inside strakes end about a foot further forward than on the normal 22. There are three 22 mold types, with the blackhawk having its very own.

Boatnut, a couple of caveats with this boat. In my opinion, the boat needs hydrauilc steering. If you plan on running the boat at full speed, the surfacing nature of this drive puts a ton of pressure on the gimbal. Secondly, parts. There are plenty of parts available for this drive, even though it has been discontinued, so don't fall victim to the speculators out there trying to make a fast buck. Most of the parts are not unique to this drive and readily available. Dock manners. The props push this boat through the marina at speed. Quickest way to buy a shaft for this drive is to jam it from forward to reverse when trying to slow the boat down . The 502 was the only original motor, because Mercury only spent the money on the ECU programming on the 502 to make it idle high enough to turn the props at 900rpm. Anything else in the engine bay is an imposter. Finally, safety, this boat takes skill to master and drive. It requires constant attention and sobriety. It can kill you, if you don't respect it. A blast to pilot, but not a great place to consume a twelve pack!

Good luck with your blackhawk search!

Todd

<small>[ March 09, 2003, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: roadtrip se ]</small>

[fasttrucker]

Having spent a day out in my 28zx,with greg maier in his blackhawk 22.All i can say is"wow" his boat really doesnt like waves,it goes airborne,greg wears a helmit,life jacket and has a kill switch connected to him.My boat flys in 2-3 foot seas 65-71mph, while greg had to go slow.His blackhawk kind of reminded me of a motorcycle.While my boat is sort of like a corvette rag-top.So think about what and where you boat i dont think a blackhawk is very practical for the open water here in the chesapeake bay...but it sure does look like wink fun. wink wink

[boatnut]

Wow, thanks again guys. I can see my knowledge of Donzis in general and the 22 specifically is rather dated. I was not aware there were 3 mold types for the 22----interesting. The Blackhawk may be a little exotic and erotic for me -- but tempting. Thanks again for the time taken to clarify some of these points.

[AVickers]

Aren't there some parts that are unique to the Blackhawk that are getting scarce? Or has MerCruiser committed to manufacture and stock these parts to keep these things running?

For example, I've heard of a couple of instances where the vertical shaft has broken. Also, I remember someone being held up because they couldn't find an output shaft bearing retaining nut. What about the lower casing or props?

I guess about everything else comes from a Bravo III? :confused:

[Woodsy]

BoatNut...

They are a handful! What everyone else has said pretty much rings true. I think any boat that runs close to 80mph should have hydraulic steering. They are different, wonderful exotic beasts. They don't like to go slow, docking can be tricky, and sidewinders can upset her when running at WOT... That being said, take one for a spin... they are an amazing boat!

Avickers...

The only things geting scarce are the propellers. Mercury hasn't made any of them for awhile. If its a stock Blackhawk boat, it will turn 31P props, and you can still scare those up with some digging. The only other part that is SUPER critical is the case. It is a one piece sandcast case. I think Merc still has a few, but they are big $$$. Used cases are a pretty rare find. I haven't looked, but I am told you can still get the vertical shaft from Mercury. I think IMCO will make you one as well. The rest of the parts are common to the Bravo I & III.


Woodsy :D :D