Engine trivia

[BUIZILLA]

Lets see what the audience says, while on the topic of lubrication :)

I will mail a $25 gift certificate to Applebee's for the correct answer to this 2 part question. Both answers must be correct to win. The bonus question will determine a tie. To be fair to lurkers, the poll will run until midnight Wednesday 26th and i'll mail the certificate on Thursday 27th after compiling the answers.

1) What moving engine part gets lubricated FIRST when cold starting at idle?

2) What moving engine part gets lubricated LAST when cold starting at idle?

Bonus question..

3) Is a gerotor design oil pump MORE or LESS efficient for all around use and operation?

This should be quite interesting.

to be eligible for the prize, you MUST email me DIRECTLY
Email answers to>buick528@aol.com
header> Donzi trivia

Good luck !!

J

[Murphy]

Here's my WAG (Wild-Ass-Guess)

Lubed first: Rocker arm tip
Lubed last: Main Journal Bearing
Pump Question: More efficient since it has no reciprocating stroke like a conventional pump.

be interesting to find out what the correct answer is. I overcame my ignorance in this area by installing a pre-oiler. So hopefully everything gets lubricated first.

Murph

[Rootsy]

hmmmm might want to specify a certain motor to narrow it down BUT... assuming an american V8 such as a sbc or sbf...

1) gears inside of the oil pump!

2) Timing Chain Assy

3) gerotor pumps generate less airation of oil, are self priming, provide better suction and possess a high volumetric efficiency on the order of 95+%. therefore from an efficiency standpoint they are superior to spur gear positive displacement type pumps... yet they take up more space, are belt driven and require extra plumbing... tis why you generally see them only used in extremely high performance applications where you need a dry sump setup.

[BUIZILLA]

Rootsy
hmmmm might want to specify a certain motor to narrow it down BUT... assuming an american V8 such as a sbc or sbf...okay, we'll use these 2 for examples.


3) yet they take up more space, are belt driven and require extra plumbing... tis why you generally see them only used in extremely high performance applications where you need a dry sump setup.[/qb]wrong...we're talking production OEM engines, not 3 stage external dry sump..

replies should be direct to me for your ANSWERS, but speculation can be posted here wink

J

5 direct emails so far with answers....good group here, no completely correct answers yet though.

[Tony]

Yeah...what Rootsy said!

[MOP]

Rear main gets oil first with the rockers getting it last. I believe the standard old two rotor pumps are well proven thats where I put my bet.

PS if the oil pump is not primed and full of oil it will not pump pickup oil very quickly, on rebuilds I always pack the pumps with Vasoline to insure quick oil delivery.

[Jamesbon]

I'll add to the "speculation."
1st: oil pump gears
last: timing chain gears
so what the hell is a "gerator?" :o

...Looks like I'm with Tony. "What rootsy said." :)

[BillG]

1. valve lifters
2. cylinder walls
3. gerotor is more efficient
My 2 cents
Bill G

[BUIZILLA]

kewl, 9 replies so far, none have all right yet... wink

J

[Scott Pearson]

1. Oil pump gears
2. Lifters
3. Gerotor design oil pump is MORE efficient.

(NJ)Scott

[MOP]

Had to add one more comment, don't care for star wheel pumps. Reason I have found 2 with cracked outers, never found a rotor style cracked.

[mattyboy]

colonel mustard
with a knife in the
library

Matt

[BUIZILLA]

11 replies so far...

only ONE is correct so far..

try for a tie?

J

[Forrest]

Lets see, I'll take a shot at this one.

1. The . . . gets oil first.

2. . . . gets oil last.

3. As I understand it, the gerotor design . . .

Gee, it looks like I too should have followed the directions and sent you an email rather than post here.

*********

Youze got mail.

[BUIZILLA]

Forrest:
Gee, it looks like I too should have followed the directions and sent you an email rather than post here.wink

[BUIZILLA]

The winner is..

Bill G.

The correct answers, based on the way the question was worded..

1. oil pump
2. wrist pins
3. gerotor is MORE efficient

Bill, email me your snail addy and I'll send the certificate.

Ready for the next question ?

J

[HyperDonzi]

Where is a wrist pin?

[McGary911]

Wrist pin is the thing that attaches the connecting rod to the piston.

[DUCATIF1]

What pressed in wrist pins move??? The piston moves on it?

[BERTRAM BOY]

The last time I checked, the wrist pins move up and down in the cylinder bore.......
BERTRAM BOY :D :D :D

[BillG]

The piston moves up and down in the cylinder,and the connecting rod rotates back and forth on the wrist pin to follow the rotation of the crankshaft. If it did not rotate you would sure have a mess on your hands.
Bill G

[Rootsy]

there are 2 general methods of connecting the rod, wrist pin and piston. The first is a pressed wrist pin. The rod and wrist pin are actually press fit togetther and the piston rocks on the wrist pin as things move to and fro. the second is the full floating system where the rod is bushed and the wrist pin floats in both the rod and the piston. the wristpin is contained via clips insterted into wrist pin bore in the piston.

[DUCATIF1]

How many production motors come with floating pins? I would have assumed he was referring to moveable parts not that they go up and down with another component. I guess you never heard of pressed in pins which is probably in every Donzi motor?? With that theory not one production SBC would make it down the block. The pistons moves on the pin in the majority of production motors. The theory behind floating style pins is to reduce friction but even in that application the pin is not rotating on every rotation otherwise that bronze bushing wouldn't last too long. I guess you don't want to hear that I don't think th oil pump is the first part to get lubricated either. Isn't it the part that is doing the lubricating and the next moveable part would be the first?? Too many variables in question? Should narrow down to exact type of motor. Hey great question to stir up some conversation.

[BillG]

Just because the pin does not complete a 360 deg rotation,doesn't mean it is not "rotating". Roller rocker arms do not rotate 360,but they do rotate about an axis.
Bill G

[BUIZILLA]

DUCATIF1:
Too many variables in question? Should narrow down to exact type of motor. Hey great question to stir up some conversation.1) Variables in question...nope..read it again
2) I DID narrow the question down early on wink
3) Check out the next trivia question... :p

J

[MOP]

Well I guess I have to put my two cents in, I guess most of us thought you were relating to pressure fed parts. Which I still feel the crank is first on a spur gear pump they need priming firat start up but usualy hold oil after that unless badly worn under that premis the crank is first then cam in block not overhead, lifter galley then rockers either through rocker sahafts ot in GM through push rods. I will always argue the dry pump thing, I have to many guys try to start new motors without packing the oil pumps! Fools I watched one gut stubron guy start a 406 Ford nearly a dozen times with No oil pressure before he listened to me and Packed the pump got immediate oil pressure on the next start, he was a drag racer for many years and had never heard of that!

PS Yup you can drive alot of pumps with a drill to get all lube before a start up but some are harder than others much easier and safer to pack the pump crank with no spark light it off when you get good pressure.

[DUCATIF1]

LT1 engines use press pins. As far as I know only 69 302's and some high HP big blocks used floating pins. I agree with M.O.P. The first engine part to be oiled is the main bearings and the last would have to be up near the rocker arms. If wrist pins regardless if pressed or floating are splash lubricated or have rods that are riffle drilled they are lubricated by pressure fed from the main bearings. Being that the bearings are fed first that would mean the splash oiling to the cyl walls and pin area would occur before the upper portion of the engine. Just curious where did you get answer and question from?? I have an idea; how about the oil cooler? Most modern vehicles have thermostats that prevent flow until temperature is reached so it would be last part to receive lubrication? I am stuck at home due to injury and have been thinking about this stupid question most of the day. Either this web page or some judge show. Brian

[DUCATIF1]

I know the oil cooler isn't moving part but therm is??

[BUIZILLA]

Duck, you still didn't read the ORIGINAL question correctly..

clue>> it says *cold start* at *IDLE*, it doesn't say a darn thing about *fresh rebuild* start, or *hot* start, or anything else, or even revving the engine. There is NOT enough splash at IDLE to *force feed* the piston pin bore on INITIAL start up, on a STOCK press pin application. In fact, a LOT of floating pin applications, are still NOT force fed rifle drilled scenes either.

67-69 302 Z28's had pressed pins from the factory as did ALL 350 LT-1's.

Actually Pearson was damn close as runnerup in his guess of the *lifter face* scenario which also requires splash (unless you run drilled Shubeck lifters)..

If it's such a stupid question, then we'll let YOU do the next engine trivia question.

Poodle, you forget about my '70 LT-1 Z28 sitting next to the new C22, or the LT-1 in the Nova sitting behind that ?? :)

J

just to let ya know Duck, I was on the FIRST tech panel ASE ever had for superchargers, blowers, governors and turbochargers, and engine repairs in general..as in, 6 others and myself wrote ALL the questions for the ASE test booklet for those specific tests... if you don't read the questions right, ya flunk the test... wink

[DUCATIF1]

Ok calm down big guy !! Do you not no sarcasim when you read it. I explained that I actually enjoyed the question and the thought that it involved. I am just as ASE certified as you are and can also understand how out dated and misleading some of the questions on the test are. By the way GM switched to floating pins on the 302 1/2 way through the 68 model year. They also used floating pins on the 427 435 hp Vette motor including the ZL1. If a motor is at idle which is approx 700 rpm there is oil being slung on the walls and other lower end components. What if it was a solid lifter motor with blocked valley's?? Unlike yourself I am able to listen to someone elses opinion and possibly learn something. Not all answers have a definite answer. Yes you question can be answered differently according to different motor configurations. Get over yourself and re-read any of my replies to any post I am more than willing to understand anyone's point of view regardless of their mech history. But then again you know everything because of that ASE patch you got for paying for a test?? I will send you all my patches that mean nothing to me and my bachelors degree diploma so you can have a few more patches to strut around with.

[Sagbay32]

Easy boys...remember we come here for fun, information, and comaraderie, not pissing matches.

M

[harbormaster]

Really. if you did not win, deal with it. I believe Bill has a "tad bit more knowledge about this stuff than most.

[BUIZILLA]

Duck, I'm NOT going to argue with you. I had a 69 302 and it did NOT have floating pins from the factory...neither does my documented 100% original LT-1 Z28.

Further to that, I did NOT pay for an ASE patch.. You insinuate too much.

Have a nice day.

J

[DUCATIF1]

I am not here to argue with anyone. I enjoy a heated dicussion in regards to anything mechanical with anyone. I understand emails and posts come across harsher than intended. If you look back at my posts I was not trying to insult anyone or even disagree with your answer. I was simply tring to give another point of view which you as an ASE board member should be more than open to. If there is one thing I have learned from working on cars is that there is usually no definite answer to anything. If there was everybody would be driving the exact vehicle and fixing it the same way. Difference of opinion is what drives the entire racing community i that I would consider my way of doing something would produce better results. Buzz I have no problem with you but just have sore spot for someone who throws out is accomplishments that quickly. I am sure you were just trying to explain your stance. I honestly just wanted to know where question came from and wasn't questioning validity. We are obviously both car guys at heart and I myself am willing to learn or take whatever I can from someone elses opinion otherwise I would never be asking the basic questions I have on this post. With that said and me taking off my dress and putting my pants back on lets get a race going!!