rebuilding a 302 Ford...

[Tony]

I toasted my 302 due to a blocked water intake (the bad news), but it looks like insurance might cover it (the good news!).

What should I instruct the machine shop to be sure to do during this rebuild? What would be an ideal component list and setup for this engine?

THANKS!!! :)

[Moody Blu']

havent you discussed this before here and on oso?

Listen, If you rebuild that same block you could run into trouble.


if you rebuild that engine there gonna do the following.
Shave your heads and block
bore & hone the cylinders
buy new pistons and rings(ask for ford motorsport forged pistons)
all new bearings(ask for clevite 77)
Inspect your connecting rods and crank(you should get them balanced)-I.E. "balanced rotating assembly"-
AND ALOT MORE

Instead of having the connecting rods and crank used why not get a forged crank and ford motorsport connecting rods.Then you could throw a blower on with out any worries.

but that would cost alot more than your insurance would cover

by me it would cost about 1700(thats if your friends with the speed shop) regularly $2000-just to build a mild engine with stock parts.

You could just go buy a long block for about the same it would cost to rebuild the engine.

hard decision for ya.

[Vertigo]

Tony

The weakest link in 302's are the con rod bolts. The two options are to drill the con rods and put larger bolts in (football shaped bolt head), or to get stronger bolts in the original size.

You could look for a set of boss 302 heads and intake to make it breath better.

Double roller timing chain or a set of idler timing gears. Personally I like the sound the gears make.

You have lots of options. Be careful on your cam profile as some will pull water back into your exhast ports.

I would also insist the exhast manifolds be replaced due to the overheating. Then you could get a nice set of Kodiak aluminum centre rize manifolds. Think of the weight savings!

Rob

[Tony]

Yes, Sky, I did post this question in the technical Q & A on OSO. I'm figuring, since I am NOT an engine guy, that I need as much knowledge as possible as I deal with the shop doing the work. I will want to make sure that what I get is at least the same quality as what I had. Or, while the engine is torn apart, I would be willing to pay for upgrades. Thus the search for opinions on specifics. Thanks for the responses so far!

[Emmo]

When I toasted the H&M 302 in my boat, I couldn't afford to pay Lee Holman the $5k and wait the three months it was going to take to get the original. Boy am I glad I couldn't! :D I ended up buying a 5.0 HO long block from a Ford Motorsports dealer. The list price is $2,300 but you should be able to negotiate a lower price (I did). The 5.0 HO has beefy piston rods, a high volume oil pump, forged pistons, double-row steel timing chain and gears and best of all, a righteous hydraulic roller cam. The engine is assembled with a composite head gasket and stainless steel crush rings, so it is fine for marine use. If you have an older 302, you will need to get a marine flywheel that is balanced to the new motor. You can get this from (I can't remember the exact name of the company, but it is something like "Performance Automotive") call them at (810) HOT-FORD. The newer 302s have a different firing order (some call it the "HO" firing order, but it is the same as the 351W has always been, which places less stress on the end of the crank). The engine comes with a front sump setup, so you will need to reuse the old oil pickup and oilpan. Although the 5.0 HO is usually fuel injected and fed by an electric fuel pump, it still has the lobes to drive a mechanical pump. You may need to plug some of the holes in the new engine that are in there for EGR, but all of your accessories, intake & exhaust manifolds, etc. will fit fine.

This new motor pulls much better than the old one in every range. It comes out of the hole faster and produces more top-end. It is a very reliable and efficient engine. Forrest told me when he drove it at Eufaula that it is the strongest 302 he has driven. It has never burned more than 6gph.

Send me an email if you need more details.

[Moody Blu']

Tony I have an even better idea!!!!!!!

forget the 302 and throw in a 351w!!

A stock one will definately pull harder than a mild 302.

plus they cost the same!

If you go this route then buy everything for a 351w instead of a 302.

If I cooked an engine like you did there is no way I would use the block again unless it was magnafluxed.

start fresh youll feel better.

How much is insurance giving you back tony?

I'm pretty sure you can buy a 302 long block for about 1500-1600 a 351w is about 1600-1700

You said you wouldnt mind doing some upgrades so. get a 351w and buy a new manifold, and new headers!!

what do you guys think??

[Scott Pearson]

Tony,
Forget the Ford alltogether and run a Chevy!!! :D

(NJ)Scott

[boldts]

Tony,

Real sorry to read about your engine. Glad to hear the insurance might help you with the replacement. I'll tell you what I was told when I asked what I should do with my 302 Ford engine. The man looked at me and asked if I needed a boat anchor? Then he said "Put a Chevrolet engine in the boat" When I explained that the boat was a Holman Moody edition and everything was set-up for a Ford engine, he started to give me some real suggestions. First, has Sky has suggested, go with more HP. The Ford 351 was his suggestion. More HP = more speed and performance. In a boat, torque is what you want. Torque allows you to run more pitch in your prop and thus more speed. If you can turn a 26" pitch prop at the same RPM that you were turning a 22" pitch prop with the old engine, more speed is obtained. The 351 engine offers both more HP and more torque. The man I was talking to at the time was at the Cumberland Poker Run and is the engine builder for a company located here in Columbus Ohio called Performance Research Inc. http://www.primarine.com/ This company is known all across the country. Give them a call and tell them that the guy wanting 302 performance ideas from the Lake Cumberland Poker Run sent you to them. :)

[Moody Blu']

chevy blah blah blah

tony I hope you are warming up to the 351w.

youll love it, I do. :D

I know where you can get a long block with a 2year waranty and they will let you put a larger cam in it and keep the waranty on the engine!

the engines are VERY GOOD:
hyperutectic pistons
ALL NEW VALVES-with a three point something
new lifters
double roller timing chain
BALANCED ROTATING ASSEMBLY
magnafluxed heads and block
and more
all for $1700
they can also set you up with anything holley makes, I.E. lunati, weiand etc
they are the east coast distributors for holley.

If you want me to help you I'd be glad to, just let me know, ill give you all the info.

I doubt any machine shop will waranty their work for 2 years!!

[Rootsy]

In my humble opinon, if the insurance is paying i'd invest in a new long block instead of going through all the work and headaches and uncertainties of rebuilding. Check out Ford SVO's offerings, there is a lot of variety from bone stock 225 hp production roller motors all the way up to mid 300 hp versions. All built with better quality and parts than your original motor was assembled with. So now you need to ask yourself what your goal is in terms of performance as well as how much money you have to spend.

if you choose to rebuild remember that your motor will need to withstand elevated rpm's for extended periods under load. SO if you are going to take the time and spend the money to throw it all back together you might as well upgrade in a few areas. Quality bearings such as childs and albert, quality bolts (ARP), EXCEPTIONAL machine work, hypereutectic or forged pistons, GOOD rings and gaskets are good ideas. not to mention all kinds of other important odds and ends.. oil pumps windage trays, head work, etc etc etc... quality parts may cost more but the motor will last longer and run better. Unless you are going to make some big HP, stuff a supercharger on it or shove nitrous into it you don't need a steel crank and H beam rods. You'll be safe with a cast nodular crank that is true and a set of rods that are shotpeened and have the flash knocked off the beams to reduce stress risers. You might want to have them magnafluxed to make sure they are crack free and it never hurts to have the assembly balanced. If you want to make some horsepower (ie above 300 scoots) that's a whole new post... one good thing you have going for you is a sheer abundance of heads, intakes, pistons, stroker kits and camshafts.

289 and 302 rods and cranks are not interchangable. you may use the whole assembly (289 rod and 289 crank) and put it in either a 302 or 289 block to get 289 same is true for a 302 rotating assembly in either block... yielding 302 cubic inches, you cannot use a 289 crank and 302 rod or vice versa. if you use a 302 crank and 289 rod your piston will stick above the top of the block, vice versa and the piston will sit down too far in the bore and you;ll have a really low compression ratio. 302 rods are 5.090 inches center to center, 289 rods are 5.155 inches. 302 stroke is 3.00 inches, 289 is 2.87. Both have 4 inch bores, and the pistons use the same compression height. I BELIEVE late model 302 rods use 3/8 rod bolts whereas pre roller motor 302's and all 289's use 5/16 bolts except for the boss 302. i've witnessed A LOT of stock 302 roller motors with A LOT of miles last for years under SEVERE nitrous and supercharger use without so much as a hicup.

the 302 is a good motor, little small to make a LOT of torque with and production heads just SUCK, pardon my french. otherwise these little motors stay together well, wind fast and are as good as any chevy if put together right with quality materials. ALTHOUGH... might as well add half again as much to the bill as you'd spend to put together a 350.

[Jamesbon]

Sorry to hear about your engine :(

I'd have to agree with Emmo and Jaroot's first paragraph.

...and another thing, I'm a Chevy man till the day I die, but that 5.0 HO in my 90' triple black convertible GT runs like a MOFO! :D I do have great respect for Fords...

[Tony]

Thanks a TON, everyone! Lots of good ideas, I really appreciate the input. Much will depend on the insurance company and the $$$$ settlement. I will keep you all posted, while I wait with ALL digits crossed!

[olredalert]

Tony,

Was talking to an engine builder up here in Mich.boat country(Jefferson ave.).Guy builds beautiful stuff.He told me about a company that sells a 354 cubic inch reciprocating assembly for a 302.Im sort of interested in keeping this Corsican I ended up with visually pretty close to stock so this seemed like a good choice.Cant remember the name but can find out.He did say that the price of just those parts was around $1700,and that makes the crate motors mentioned very palatable,price-wise,because there would still be alot to do before the engine was back together.Lots of ways to skin a cat!.........just........ol red!

[Greg]

Tony, This ad just appeared on the Northern Ill. Trading Times ad paper:Lund boat' dry rot.1978 OMC I/O 351 Ford V-8 engine runs great, tandem axel trailer included. First $1,000 takes it 847-587-7444. Good Luck Greg

[Donzified]

Three motors in one season !


Most mechanics think they can build a engine.

Most engine builders think they can do high performance.

Most performance engine builders think they can do high perfomance marine.

It takes more than {I think I can },to do the job.

Thats why I needed three motor in one season.

Learning the hard way !

Good luck.

[Moody Blu']

Which brings me back to the company I know that has MARINE engines and will swap the cam for a bigger cam and wil still keep the 2 year waranty on it.
I actually talked to the owner on line today and asked him if he would do the same for a friend and he said yes

I'm waiting to see what your settlement is tony, then ill send you the number and give you the model of the cam.

aww hell here is the specs on the cam they will switch up tothe cam is 00110-great power range!. http://www.lunaticams.com/Camshafts/Ford3.html

[Tony]

Is there a weight difference between the 302 and the 351? How much HP difference? $16-1700 for a long block would include what? Would aluminum headers be recommended, as long as I stay in fresh water?

A site called
RaceSearch (http://www.racesearch.com/CGImp/mhp?man=1637&sort=PRICE&att=0&engtype=3466&Try+Again=Try+Again&mode=sbpn&cat=3151)has 5.0 HO long blocks listed for about $3k, but they seem more all inclusive. Also, they are not listed in their "marine" section and this obviously worries me.

All this could be putting the cart before the horse, since the incurance company might insist I rebuild my existing engine. The mechanic thinks the machine shop will likely "sleeve" the cylinders. Is this good or bad? What other trouble areas might I worry about in rebuilding the existing block and heads?

[Rootsy]

OH man NO SLEEVES!!!! if that's the case toss the block in the dumpster and go to SVO and buy a production 5.0 roller block for about 350 bucks...

a 351 short block will be about 80 lbs heavier than a 302. 50 of that in the block alone, rest in the crank and rods. otherwise everything else is pretty much the same except the wider intake manifold. if you go 351 you'll need to relocate your exhaust if you have thru hulls because the deck height of the 351 is higher than the 302 to accomodate a longer stroke. this widens the V so essentially the 351 is both higher and wider than the 302 and your exhaust won't exit through the same holes as before.

if i was you i'd PUSH HARD for a NEW short block at least. Have your heads rebuilt and put on the new rotating ass'y. i BELIEVE you can even buy a new 5.0 roller short block from SVO. put your pan front cover water pump heads intake etc etc on it... get the correct flywheel or flexplate and the correct harmonic balancer. you'll need new pushrods too and probably valve springs which should be replaced when the heads get done, plus a bronze or steel gear on the distributor for the roller cam compatibility. everything else will work you'll just have a different firing order (new 302/351 *1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8* vs old 302/289 *1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8*) God i sound like an SVO rep... they just have a LOT of good production quality stuff for sale at reasonable prices.

in a marine application the head gaskets are different than in an automotive application, stainless steel is used i do believe, i also believe that the freeze plugs are brass. even if you did buy a complete long block you could pull the heads and put a set of marine head gaskets in, probably should take the pan off and put a windage tray in also if you don't already have one, i assume your current motor does. if you run any salt water all of this stuff is probably needed, fresh water... it isn't quite so needed.

again, all depends on money... but if you have the option... go new vs. rebuilt... often times prices are quite comparable if NOT CHEAPER to go new.

From 2000 Ford SVO book

-Complete 302 motors-

320 hp 302, aluminum GT40 heads, long block ass'y. Part# M-6007-B50 (B303 roller cam - flywheel equipped, 9:1 compression ratio). complete oilpan to valve covers less intake, carb, distributor and exhaust. Water pump , oil pan and pulleys for pre serpentine belt and fox bodied applications. -- $3295.00

345 hp 302, aluminum GT40 Heads, long block same assembly as above except different GT40 heads. Part# M-6007-XB3 (B303 roller camshaft, fly wheel equipped). -- $3495.00

270 hp 302, cast iron high flow heads, same ass'y as above, pan to valve covers less intake, distributor and exhaust. E303 Roller camshaft, specify flexplate or flywheel. Part# M-6007-A52 --$2795.00

225 hp 302, direct 5.0 HO replacement, uses serpentine belt water pump. No pulleys, no distributor or intake manifold. 9.0:1 compression, production roller camshaft. Long block assembly including fox bodied oil pan (dual sump) Part# M-6007-F50 --$2295.00

215 hp 302 economy motor. long block ass'y, 215 hp @ 4200 rpm, 288 ft-lb torque @ 3300. production roller motor ass'y with F4TZ-B roller cam and production iron GT-40 "P" cylinder heads. standard rotation water pump, no intake, distributor or exhaust. Part# M-6007-P52 --$1495.00

--short block assemblies --

includes block, crank, rods, hypereutectic pistons (9.0:1 compresion w/ 65 cc heads), roller camshaft, timing chain. 285 hp w/ GT40 heads. Part# M-6009-B50 --$1395.00

Same AS ABOVE short block assy except for machining error in front and rear lifter valley walls, easily repaired with silicone when intake is installed. part# M6009-B51 --$995.00 (LIMITED QUANTITIES)

Production 302 short block ass'y. cast pistons - flat top w/o valve reliefs. roller camshaft F1TE-AA. Not compatible with high performance cam and heads. Part# M-6009-C50
--$895.00

*****************************************

Stock Replacement 5.0 HO / 302 block
Part# M-6010-A50 --$345.00

hope this helps a little bit eh

[Rootsy]

WOW, read my post... to think, i'm supposed to be "educated" and i totally slaughtered the english language! forgive me, it's early i need more coffee!!!!!!

[Forrest]

Geeez, if I had known that, I wouldn't have put a sleeve in the 302 block that I'm running in my 16. No wonder that motor is such a pig! Any suggestions Sky? :rolleyes:

[Moody Blu']

Jaroot, actually my 351w exits the same holes. the guy who owned the boat before me said they replaced the original 289 with the 351w. the exhaust hose DOES bend in ward and upward actually.
I guess it depends on the headers.

(I have log style headers)-glenwood- they look a hell of a lot better than the other style headers.They also make the engine easier to work on.

forrest, you may as well buy a 175 HP nitrous kit and use it till you blow that motor sky high. Then go buy a 351w R block(there about 3g's just for the block and build a sick 800HP NA engine.)

[BigGrizzly]

Sky, Forrest's little green giant will run 70 mph with that 302 with a 500 cfm carb to boot.

Randy

[Voodoocanoe]

Tony - If you want to go with a brand new Factory assembled FoMoCo/SVO long or short block shoot me an Email.

[abbe]

big griz whats your point?
forrest ask for suggestions :rolleyes:

[Rich]

Tony......
While I don't have any technical data or prices on engines as the previous posts do,
I do have one recommendation.......
Make sure you buy a MARINE engine and not a car engine. True marine engines are designed to run at or near full throttle for extended periods. Because of this, special valve springs, pistons, bearings, lifters, camshaft, corrosion resistant head gaskets,
etc. etc. are required for long engine life. While a car engine may work just fine, it probably won't last as long. Check with your Ford dealer for the part number of their 351W MARINE engine. Good Luck buddy!

[mattyboy]

Tony,
I have an older boat like yours, I love the 351w in it. It is worked a little, and it really screams.Your boat is pretty mint I would stay with the ford but that's me( this is coming from a guy who drove a 78 chevy monza Spyder with a 5litre worked to the hilt named ford killer) hey I grew up and learned a little. I think it would be less headaches to buy a marine 351w and drop it in. what outdrive are you running if you go to much hp you might need to upgrade.
mine is a volvo 250 and it runs great.
good luck
Matt

[BigGrizzly]

The point is Forrest has been building his own engines for over 20 years. he sleved his block and doesn't have any trouble at all. He is a top notch technition, and respected by all the board members here and on the other bords he frequents. I beleive this was made in jest. You see his 16 is one of the fastest that I have seen.

Randy

[Tony]

Rich, Randy, Forrest, Voodoo, Matty, and others:

Thanks again for the input! I am taking all advice into consideration and hoping the insurance company is willing to work with me on this. I would love to bring my engine to Sterling Performance Engines (http://www.sterlingperformance.org/) in Milford, MI. In speaking to them they not only will take my puny 302(compared to what they're used to), it sounds like they will rebuild it like it deserves to be rebuilt.

Like the saying goes, buy paint from a paint store. So I am hoping to take my marine engine to a marine engine shop, and not a local automotive machine shop.

I'll know more at the end of this week, and will probably start a new topic to give you all an update. THANKS AGAIN! :cool:

[BigGrizzly]

I have seen some of their work and the seem to be pretty much on target with their engines.

Randy