Gas Tank Installation.....Hummmm I wonder.

[Scott Pearson]

ok....First off U.S. Coast Guard CGD 183.550 states Foams are "UNSUITABLE" for any metallic tank installation.

As far as support we are only talking about a tank that is 2 feet by 3 feet. If it was 2 feet buy 6 feet it would be a different story. Also as far as oil canning....good point but...if you add more support you have a better chance of a high spot that will oil can.



Also here is a picture of a Brand new 22 foot donzi with a 40+ gallon plastic tank with no foam and straps that arnt glued to the tank or fit right between the strings! Wood screwed no less!!!! Gee....wonder if that strap will come loose! God knows whats under it?? MOP...and your worried about an oil can....or a seem splitting...This is one big CRACK waiting to
happen.


http://www.donzi.net/photos/spearfoam1.jpg


MOP...you better call Donzi and tell them all the thinges they might be doing wrong....Hurry....There are more Boat bombs being build as we speak!

Just because someone has been doing it for 40 years dosnt mean they have been doing it right for 40 years.

I'm all for safety and doing things 100%. I look into something extensively before I do it. Ask anyone who has seen my work or my boat. There wasn't one corner cut! MOP I have one of the nicest 1968 18 Donzi's out there. I hope we meet one day so you can crawl through my boat. I know you will be hard pressed to find one unsafe or bogus thing wrong. I also hope you will give me the same respect and let me inspect your boat.

Also as far as saftey....90% of the boats out there are an accident waiting to happen! And thats before they even leave the factory!

My tank is done the same way and I have not had an ounce of trouble....Man...I better go pull my dack and redo it.....I don't know how I will ever sleep!

You do it your way...I'll do it mine....We will see in 5-10 years who is replacing what.


(NJ)Scott

[harbormaster]

OK OK OK so we have a difference of opinion.

Pearson cool down and MOP stop getting Pearson all wired up....

MOP is ONLY trying to help. You you do not agree, you do not have to do it. Simple as that...

Scott I disagree with you on the paint/gelcoat debate. (You probably feel that way because you could not get the right color orange in gelcoat) :D

Big whoop...
Chill out.
MOP stop stirring up pearson! :D

[Scott Pearson]

Im not wired up at all...just having a friendly debate. Keeping it real thats all.... :D :D


(NJ)Scott

[Jamesbon]

All I can say regarding that "nylon tank" installation pictured, is that they require 100% support on the bottom and 1/4" "breathing room" on the sides. Apparently, when the nylon tanks are filled for the first time, they expand...

-Still hypothesizing on how to BEST mount my 52 gallon nylon tank. (identical to the one pictured/same as the one used in 22 Classiccs)

Yeah, Pearson, I saw what foam did to foster corrosion on my old aluminum tank. I can see why the "CG" outlaws it.

I'm thinking some kind full support under the tank with big "breathing" holes drilled in it to aid in aeration might be the ticket.

Great topic, let's hear from the rest of you!

Yeah, gelcoat rules wink

[mattyboy]

Let me say one thing here I witnessed emergency surgeory on my boat this last weekend, and Scott, Cliff and Chris don't take the easy way out, they take the right way out and everything they touch is safer stronger and better then when they started.There may be a difference of opinions here, I saw that tank go in and it ain't going no where. I have been driving a boat with a flakey tank for 3 seasons and I always check bilge and under deck before the key goes in, Safety is important,that's why I do it( that's why my boat is in 2 pieces 2 blocks apart to make it safer).With this set up if the tank fails or leaks it will be more noticeable then hiding in the foam and building up.

I appreciate everyones concern for my safety,
thank you

Matt

[GEOO]

Humm,
I did all the reseach I could 5 years ago and replace my tank with a factory Donzi 41 gal tank. I foamed it in like most of the companies did. Well last summer I could not find where the little fuel smell was coming from. After replacing all the fuel lines I realized the tank must have a problem.
What I didn't realize was all I had to do was call the HULL BUSTERS!!! And my deck would be off in a jiffy. (I managed myself :( )I'll post some pics.
Well I did more research and here is what I ended up with.

FUEL SAFE
http://www.donzi.net/photos/gdesmondfuelcell2.jpg

Now I can replace the tank with out removing the deck!!!

Once it is in place I put all the foam in then bolt in the 2nd cover plates.(the foam goes inside this tank!!)

Here is a pic of the baffle system with one way valves.

http://www.donzi.net/photos/gdesmondfuelcell1.jpg


I haven't found the best way, for a fuel tank.
The fuel cells have a lot of advantages but don't like to sit in water, only last 6-8 years and cost a lot???. But they are safe??? :rolleyes:

[BUIZILLA]

Personally, I am somewhat disturbed by Pearson's picture...

If, in FACT, that is the way Donzi is building them now.... not good...

I am, however, VERY comforted by GEOO's picture, if I ever need a tank, that's the route I'm taking...

J

[BillG]

Not trying to rile anyone up, but I would never be happy to have a boat with a tank put in like that from the factory or anyplace else. You have to remember that these boats can generate some pretty high G-forces on landing and that tank installation sucks!

Bill G

[Jamesbon]

Hmmm, GEOO, are you sure that isn't a "bag of wine" that come's inside "Franzia's" box of wine?

Where can I get a 41 gallon tank of Chillable Red? :D

[MOP]

Scott lets not battle!
I have seen by the many photos and topics that prove you do your projects well above average and have some of the best toys on the D net. I am trying to make a very important and serious statement about tanks. I am sorry I got you dander up, that was not my objective. I am not great with conveying my point alot of times. But I think maybe the stir I have caused will make the less knowledgeable do the research necessary to do things in a safer manner. I have injuries out to NFPA, USCG, NAMS, ABYC, SAMS and the National Yacht Council and will scan and post the results. I am anti aluminum and have been for many years I was glad the poly stuff came along. How many took the time to read the information in the URL's I posted.

One I liked alot I cut & pasted below. Especially the Zero failure in two decades on poly tanks.

Aluminum fuel tanks in a marine environment are and will always be a problem. Heavier gauge aluminum will lengthen the life, and better mounting and inspection methods will reduce the risk. But, since a non-corrosive substitute is available, boat builders need to eliminate these time bombs from your boat.

If you do need to replace a leaky fuel tank, find a polyethylene replacement. When the American Boat and Yacht Council used a Coast Guard grant to study poly tanks, they found that the synthetic tanks installed as much as two decades ago had zero failures, and the ABYC says that polyethylene tanks pose no risk at all.

But until you buy a boat with poly tanks or replace the aluminum tank in your boat, continual watchfulness is your best defense.

And if you don't think you have time to take the safety precautions of sniffing and inspecting regularly, then you may get a chance to relax in a hospital. If you survive.

P.S. Scott the beers on me and yes you can call me a cranky old fart.

[Greg K]

Geoo,

I know that was definitely custom made for you, but is that bladder going to be housed in a container?

[Scott Pearson]

Buizilla,
I S**T you not. That was taken at the Donzi Factory tour in 2001. Scary huh!


(NJ)Scott

[ToonaFish]

I won't be completely blonde 'til Friday at 11am, but what does the term "oil canning" mean?

Bunches,

Celene 'well rooted'

[Scott Pearson]

Ok...Celene...its a weak spot in the metal. Usually caused by the stretching of metal. Take a soda or Beer can and push on the side softly for awhile. It will pop in and out making a noise. This is sorta like oil canning....


(NJ)Scott

[Marlin275]

My factory foam installed tank lasted 28 years.
I had to replace because of debris and crud.
No leaks, some corrosion inside only, the boat
would stall out when that stuff got stuck in the sender.
So it seems to have worked in the environment
that it was designed for?
eek!

[BUIZILLA]

Pearson, I think that photo opened a LOT of eyes...thanx for sharing wink

J

[MOP]

Hope this does not fire things up again! But oil canning is the flexing of any material till a condition called work hardening occurs. Once work hardening starts the given strength is diminished fairly quick causing the material to fail well before its normal life span.

[Fish boy]

"tanks" for the posts guys and girls, it has been very informative.

Fish

[Terry0341]

From a soon to be "First time boat owner", thanks for the insight. Always!

[Jake]

I am not real familiar on this topic, can someone post some pictures of what a proper tank installation should look like. Thanks.

[Ralph Savarese]

I don't know but mine was foamed in for the 30 years old Monel tank never had a problem so when I restored the boat 1/8" plate aluminum tank I painted it with the same paint used on the boat sat it on AC Vibration Cork cushions and used expantion foam under and around not fore and aft so I can spot any leakage under the tank by looking through the sender access hole.
It seemed that my tank box below deck is also a containment box sealed from the rest of the builge with a tube that goes to the front chamber.
Ralph

[MOP]

Ralph you said 30 years on monel then 1/8 aluminum painted, did you remove the monel?

[BERTRAM BOY]

M.O.P.
You must have it in for Scott Pearson.
You just explained "oil canning" is a slightly different, and slightly more technical way........and you are still trying to say he is wrong.....

[Jamesbon]

My tank lasted 30+ years packed in water saturated foam. However, I wouldn't do it this way again. It was still sealed upon removal, but I can't imagine she would have lasted much longer....

You can see the new nylon tank in the background of the third pic.

And yes, the fourth pic is one of a 22 Classic setting up in the mold at Donzi. Hope this helps...

http://www.donzi.net/photos/nschlaetank1.jpg

http://www.donzi.net/photos/nschlaetank2.jpg

http://www.donzi.net/photos/nschlaetank3.jpg

http://www.donzi.net/photos/pic00008.jpg

[harbormaster]

Guys Guys. It IS possible to have 2 diffent views.
And not agree with out attacking each other.
You guys need to back off. Cliff You are out of line.

[ToonaFish]

Thank all of you for explaining it to me... and yes, it makes sense both ways. I'm flexible. :D

[CDMA]

Harbormaster how can there possibly be two answers??? I mean there is only one answer to any question we all know that. Nothing is subjective ...note sarcasm wink

Ever notice the good threads are the ones with differing opinions? It is a good thing we need it to continue the learning process.

There are things I did to my boat three years ago I would never do now. At the time I thought they were right. We learn and to think at any age or level or expertise/experience that you know everything and your way is the right and only way is ignornace. We only stop learning when we chose to.

Chris

[Forrest]

Thanks Chris. Hay guys, keep it up! I'm learnin'! You know, I'll need to do gas tank jobs in every one of my boats in the very near future. Who knows, if MOP had never said anything, I may have just yanked out the old tank and foam, and then shoved a new tank in place and dumped foam all around it and be done with it, just like they did (and maybe still do) at the factory. If the replacement job lasts as long as the original did, I'll be in an old folks home before needing to replace a tank again, but that's no reason not to do it better with better materials and techniques. This talk get me thinking about how I'm going to do my up coming tank jobs.

And Scot, you got to remember, what you are hearing is just normal conversation between guys from the North East. They don't mean any harm . . . it just adds color to the process. Hell, the first time I ever talked with Big Grizzly, I thought the he was giving me a hard time, but not hardly, it was just his New Jersey accent! Once I figured out the language, everything was fine and I can actually understand what he's saying.

Now where did you guys leave off? I think it was MOP turn again, wasn't it? . . . or was it Pearson's? I don't know, but anyway, carry on!

----------------
Forrest - Still in the Deep South.

[mattyboy]

Chris good point, Harbor I don't think Cliff is out of line, I also was found to be rubbed the wrong way By MOP's secondary posts, referring to safety ,if he a had bothered to read my early post I do a routine inspection of everything before the key goes in, that's why I knew I needed a tank replaced,but he freely admits his tact ain't the best, we're big kids and think we can behave and agree to disagree politely. I didn't see any attack of any kind or anything out of line.but I could be wrong sometimes this is a hard medium to understand how we truly feel, sometimes a joke is interpreted as an insult.
but we have to have these types of discussions, they are not personal,political,or religous( well some to take their boats very fanatically) it is about maintaining our boats, this is like
synthetic vs dino oils
gear oils vs motor oil in the volvo drives( this is a perticularly similar case they found the old way was not good and the new way was better)
windshields and weenie bars( I took that shot quite personally :p wink but you were not out of line when you said it :D ,
for all I know is I might be out of line right now
so I'll stop.

Matt

[Walt. H.]

Come on guy's! There is more then one way to do a job correctly! Just like the expression "There's more then one way to skin a cat!" There is are Pro's and Con's in everything we do in life. Just agree that you disagree and let it go! What's next? Arguing who has the best technic to build a race engine or Turbo charging Vs Super charger's? I've been following this from the beginning, and all it was that started this offense was M.O.P. tried to be helpful not insulting. I'm not taking sides here, I don't know either of you. I've enjoyed what I read in the past from all here, but not this. This battling of who has the better way is doing a dis-service to this Group of wonderfull people here.
On one page there is concern, click on another and your ready to "Duel at 20 paces"? Re-direct your hostility to those that want to go after your boating right's, Not the guy that might be the one who is willing to throw you a tow line one day when you need help.

"NUFF SAID"!
Just my two cent view!
i'm going for a beer now! :p :D :p

Regards,
Walt.

[boldts]

Been sittin back watching this thread because I too love to learn what-ever I can from those who have done something before I try to do it.

I have on occasion expressed an opinion about my experiences. Sometimes even told I didn't know the first thing about what I was talking about. In the end, and by picking up the phone or communicating in an e-mail note, I understood and learned from those with far more knowledge than I possessed.

Let me just post an example: Bryan Tuvell and Randy Carabelli (Big Grizzly) got into a disagreement about something that at the time was very important to both of them. AOTH 1 happened and both were in attendance. They were both big enough to sit down and discuss their differences. Today, these guys not only talk to one another, but are very good friends! Brian has continued to bounce ideas off of Randy and learned in the process.

I've seen Mr. Pearson's work. The man doesn't do anything half as**d. M.O.P, I've never met you YET, but I enjoy all the experience you bring to this board. It is through you both that guys like myself continue to learn and become more informed. When I bought the 22, I didn't look at how the fuel tank had been installed. I, like almost any other consumer trusted the builder had built a safe product.

I personally thank-you both!

[MOP]

Let me try to get things on a level keel!

I take 100% blame for screwing up by posting my concerns, It was late and I had a few. If I had 1/2 a brain I would have E-mailed Scott with my thoughts. Hell I have seen enough of his work on his toys to be in awe. Just did not agree!

SCOTT LETS LET IT GO! I do apologize and will do my best not to be an "ASS HOLE IN THE FUTURE"

[GEOO]

Nate,
No wine needed..The wind put an uncontrollable grin on ones face. Or of coarse The extra nossle of Laughing Gas (NOS) in the dash!!! HEE HEE

No realy, I know the tank does look funny. But Airplanes use them??

Greg,
I reglassed and gelcoated the tank area (smoothed out), Placing the tank on a 3M drainage mat, Basically have a built in tank container. The rear bulkhead has a drain plug for airing out the tank area and testing for water or gas leaks.

[Marlin275]

M.O.P.-
If I had 1/2 a brain I would have E-mailed Scott with my thoughts. We learned because you questioned!
I didn't know that nobody agrees on the right way.
I can't see how anybody even agrees on what the tank should be made of?
My boatyard guys said they didn't like poly tanks?
So what have we learned?
What is the best?
Fiberglass tank with a nylon liner, set in with closed cell foam?
GEOO your idea sounds good, any downside to that plan?

[GEOO]

Yes, liners only last 6-8 years!!! The foam goes inside the liner, the fuel goes into the foam!!!

[turbo2256]

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/fueltank.htm check this link .... hope it works and helps