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View Full Version : 270 Outdrive Problem Progress (More Questions)



Craig
04-29-2003, 06:49 AM
Continuing re: previous discussion about U-Joints, bearings, etc.

O.K. I took the outdrive off. A couple of observations:

1) There was a cap of some kind laying inside the bellows and it's bent, scarred, etc. Wasn't sure where it was from. Only place it looks like it could have been was on the inside of the yoke (with the female splines - the one coming off of the drive shaft). Assume it just fell off and got chewed in the U-joints. Next question: is it even needed? Seems like it may have been a cap for keeping grease at the splines???
2) There "IS" some forwad and reverse movement when I grab the drive shaft and push and pull. As far as side ways, just enough to click. Are either indication that there are problems further in. The seal at the end of the drive shaft seems to be in tact.
3) The male splines going into the upper gear housing (opposite end of the U-joint assembly) has damage. About 1/2 way along the splines they are scarred as if they weren't fitting in all the way. Thought that may have something to do with the forward and back slop at the drive shaft.
4) One of the U-joint spier's ends rubs the yoke slightly while the others don't.
5) Only good thing is the U-Joints all still move O.K. Not like last time; they were sticking (assume moinsture got to them) This time they were greasy and moved well. Replaced them in 2000.

Might be able to get some pics and have more questions about seals around the male splines at the upper gear housing. Old one had a couple shims. Replacement one didn't.

Wondering if I might not need a whole new yoke assembly. I think I saw them priced somewhere at around $400.00 Seems like a lot.

Anyway, appreciate any comments. Will check back in later.

MOP
04-29-2003, 08:09 AM
You should not be able to move the shaft within the upper gear housing fore and aft or side to side. A very small amount of rotational motion is usually Ok. Pull the top cover and look inside it may need some work, hopefully just a re-shim and seal job. Also hearing that you freed up the U joints in 2000 tells me change them along with the bearings.

Craig
04-29-2003, 01:43 PM
I meant the shaft in the bell housing (not the gear housing) moves in and out. Is that bad? It moves about 1/2" in and out. Gotta get some pics up!

Thanks M.O.P.

MOP
04-29-2003, 02:00 PM
No its not good but as long as the shaft has not spun in the bearings you should be able to save it the Knarly splines don't sound good. Will wait for your photos. Get the bearings out and clean the housing well, make sure nothing spun in the housing. Thats common when not service regularly.

Craig
04-29-2003, 04:24 PM
M.O.P. --- I know what you're saying about the splines. That doesn't look good. I want to get pics up. My digital camera is not a good one. Took some shots last night and didn't show enough detail. A friend with a good digital is coming up to get the shots. Then will post.

When you said Get the Bearings out did you mean just the ones at each splined end of the U-joints?

As I recall (since I can't see inside the bell housing yet without the rear seal removed) there is only the one bearing actually in the housing, right? The one that holds the shaft just forward of the U-joint yoke.

The one aft of the U-joint assembly (other end of the bellows) is inside the upper gear housing. I think (hope) the upper gear housing may be o.k.

There were some metal bits in the bellows -- I think from the spline damage and the "mystery cap" mentioned above. I know that doesn't sound good either.

As you said, I did figure I'd replace U-joints too since the outdrive is off. A lot of work to do too often, but hey it only took me 30 minutes to get the drive off! NOt bad for being clueless.

Just want to get it back together right.

Hopefully this will be more clear once I get the pics up.

MOP
04-29-2003, 07:58 PM
One bearing two snap rings, two seals, one snap ring behind the outer seal holds it in the housing. The other snap ring holds the bearing on the shaft. The big snap ring is a bugger, you do need the big ratchet type snap ring puller. Find the big screw top center inside that it used for lubing the bearing, you can install a grease fitting to make greasing real easy. One thing if you do install a grease fitting pump the greas gun very slowly, you can jack the seals out, look forward to photos.

Danny
04-29-2003, 08:34 PM
http://www.donzi.net/photos/dkeefe1005.jpg

Sorry for the greasy finger print.
I have another bellow housing and intermediate shaft assembly already to replace the one in the 21GT 280 drive so I went out to the garage and looked at it and like MOP says there is no end play at all. My guess would be that the lock ring (snap ring)at the every top left of the exploded view has broken allowing the end play in that shaft, which in turn caused the spline damage and the only way to get to that is by removing the engine and taking off the bell housing.
Danny

Danny
04-29-2003, 08:37 PM
I meant bell housing not bellow housing, I never did proof read very well.
Danny

Craig
04-30-2003, 06:32 AM
Appreciate the additional stuff guys. Like Danny's exploded view. My manual doesn't have that one and its helpful. Remove engine?!?!? Yikes, not again.

Pictures should be up some time today or this p.m. Took the photos, but now need camera owner to get them to my computer.

Thanks again to all. I'm studying.

MOP
04-30-2003, 06:54 AM
Craig I don't think you have reason to pull the engine unless you find the engine end of the shaft in real bad shape. You can find more blow up on the site below, you can drag the box edges to full size for better viewing. There are part numbers and discriptions, has Volvo and Merc plus alot more.

http://hlsm.com/

Craig
04-30-2003, 10:45 AM
M.O.P - I like that part about not having to pull the engine. With regard to the movement of the shaft from the engine to the u-joint (looks like what schematic calls the "primary shaft") I tried to measure the fore and aft movement and got about 5/32". Is that acceptable or a problem?

Clicked on Volvo parts site link. I've been there. It is a great site for pics, prices, etc. BUT some of them (prices) scare me. I know this stuff is pretty salty, but it seems I've seen significantly better prices somewhere. Example: the whole upper gear unit price there of $3,863.00 I saw elsewhere for (I think) $2,195.00 (rebuilt) or $2,995.00 (remanuf.). Still pretty high. I think that site was: outdrives.us Also found Stern Drive International which is the same site as outdrive.us.

Where are these $500.00 complete 280 drives someone mentioned a while ago????

Got pictures. They're excellent! If you zoom in, you can see dust mites on the pics of the knurly splines (Just Kidding - but they are good). Won't be able to get them up until tonight. My friend with the nice digital camera is also pretty mechanical. His first thought at seeing my pics are that some of my parts are toast!

MOP
04-30-2003, 04:34 PM
I have seen some pretty good slop 5/32 sounds a little tall, you need to get things fully apart. Part of what I would be looking at would be how much play up and down in the shaft prior to pulling it. I have seen the flywheel splines get pretty risky from running to long with a bad bearing. Like to see a good shot of the shaft, don't get carried away with what you might need. Another plus is alot of what you might need some of the member have hidden in their treasure troves. SHOW US THE PIC'S!!! A ton of the guys have these drives and will come up with ideas and maybe some parts.

Craig
05-01-2003, 06:32 AM
Oh man I did it again -- Typed all the junk in for a pile of photos and exceeded the 8 photo maximum!! You'd think doing it once would teach you a lesson!!!!!! That should be made idiot proof so I wouldn't do that again!

O.K. Here are my pics:
Looking in Bell Housing with seal still in place:
http://www.donzi.net/photos/CZimmermann101.JPG
Same with seal Removed:
http://www.donzi.net/photos/CZimmermann109.JPG
Scarred Male Splines of U-Joint Yoke:
http://www.donzi.net/photos/CZimmermann107.JPG
U-Joints - Can see inside female splines where cap (see 3 pics down) must have been:
http://www.donzi.net/photos/CZimmermann104.JPG
Pretty much the same showing cap in place where I assume it went:
http://www.donzi.net/photos/CZimmermann106.JPG
Cap:
http://www.donzi.net/photos/CZimmermann105.JPG
Looking into upper gear housing. A main concern is "Are the female splines in there damaged since the male splines that go inside are damaged (see pic above)." Hard to tell if a new U-Joint yoke/spline end would go into the upper gear housing properly now. I assume they wouldn't BUT I hope they would. :
http://www.donzi.net/photos/CZimmermann112.JPG
One more:
http://www.donzi.net/photos/CZimmermann114.JPG

Hopefully these are helpful, but I'm not sure everything that needs to be seen has been shown here. The pics were shrunk to load quicker. The originals were incredible but were huge and would have taken forever to load.

Look forward to the additional expert diagnosis.

MOP
05-01-2003, 08:18 AM
I've seen allot worse, I have seen the U joint plugs out before most of the time by putting to much grease in the hole. The shaft should be greased well then one spline should be cleaned to allow air and any excess grease escape. I like spline grease some use wheel bearing grease both seem to do the job. I would pull the upper apart and take good look at things especial the input gear, if all looks good re-shim it. While its all apart change out the water hose and check the bushings and the whole Helmut and tiller assy for any looseness.

Craig
05-01-2003, 10:19 AM
M.O.P - So what all are you saying here:
1) I can still use the U-Joint yokes with the scarred splines? I thought they looked pretty bad.
2) From previous reply, it sounded you were saying I should take the bearing in the bell housing out and replace. Are you saying it looks o.k. (even with the mentioned 5/32" in and out wiggle)? To clarify sideways movement, I don't think there is any. Or at least not much. If any, it's just enough to make a "click." You can't really see any movement.
3) I'm assuming I need a new cap (U-Joint plug). I'll bet it did pop out from over greasing. Probably my fault. Wait; my boat... all damage is my fault for crying out loud!!
4) When you say "the shaft should be greased" are you meaning just the end splines beyond the bearing? This assumes, as mentioned above(#2), you're saying you don't think I have to pull the shaft.
Sorry I'm so slow getting this. For me (not a mechanic) this is a big deal; a lot to process.
With regard to shimming (another area of cluelessness for me), do you just get new shims at the specified thickness? My manual (Clymer's) isn't real detailed about that.

Man if you can answer all that, I may be on my way! I will check the upper gear housing as you suggested and do hoses etc. since it's all apart. Will probably have more questions with further disassembly. I can hear some of you guys laughing at my lack of wrench skills. Hey I was always told "the only dumb question was the one you didn't ask." Knowing that I'd still usually keep my mouth shut! Thanks again M.O.P.

MOP
05-01-2003, 05:58 PM
Hell no check the shaft if its decent use it, change bearing, seals, spline ends, and important throw the snap ring for the shaft, use a new one. As far as the U joints for a few more bucks I think you can still get it as an assembly not sure. But if not save the middle and chuck the rest. I feel you have some wear inside the female look it over if its smooth with no chews you are probably Ok. Go and find genuine spline grease, it will do a much better job of protecting the splines than wheel bearing grease. While you have it apart change the water hose also, inspect the neck they get tired after a few years. Put a post in Wanted some of the parts may be hanging around who knows who's garage or barn.

One thing keeps bothering me by looking at the photos it almost appears as if the U joint was free of the upper gear case, or is it my imagination. Was it still bolted in place???? If not I can see why the grease cap got knocked out, You do have the upper apart DON"T YOU?

Kind of Scarey if you don't that will be a new one on me!

MOP
05-01-2003, 06:06 PM
I hope I am wrong!

Damn the more I look at the photos that thing got un-screwed, clean out the splines on that upper make sure that they are not badly damaged. If so you will need to replace both gears and go through a full shim job, not for the weak of heart!

Andy knuth
05-01-2003, 09:21 PM
I just saw your pics of the splined shaft and they are trashed.That input shaft has two tapered bearings on it with a crush sleeve in between them, it that can only be used once along with the bolt and washer.I've re shimmed mine last year and that bolt is suposed to have locktite on it and torqued to something like 80ft/lbs. That spline has to be a perfect fit or you will get severe vibrations.Your gears may be ok because the gear is pressed in the rear bearing. the screw on the splined shaft pulls the gear and the bearing on to its self along with the front bearing ithe opposit direction in a double tapered outer race like a wheel bearing except on some drives there is a metal sleeve that gets crushed to set preload.If I remember corectly 1-2 lbs is measured by rapping a string around the outer race with out the aluminum casting onit and using afish scale to pull the string while the u-joint is held in a vise.there are also some shims to deal with. the gear is alot harder than the splines on that shaft.good luck and buy a good manual.Andy.

MOP
05-02-2003, 01:54 AM
Andy I've looked at that picture of the rear yoke and the pinion about 4 beers worth, can't see in to see how bad the spline has worn from the yoke moving in and out. God knows how long it was run that way. If its shot he'll have to go for the gear set, I'm going to scrounge around a few shops locally to see if I can cop an upper U joint and all. I get the feeling Craig is handy but may not want to lay the bucks that this may end up consuming. I have picked up a good tight upper for not bad $$, I'll give it the colledge try to save him a few bucks. Gee Andy I wonder if there is a nice old E-Drive thats tired of cold winters and wants to go South!!!!

Andy knuth
05-02-2003, 09:51 PM
That old E-drive is rapped in blankets under my work bench to keep it warm while the rest of the boat under goes engine surgery.Anyway that thing sould be taken apart.Just take the 4 socket cap screws out off her and pull it apart,nothing can be harmed if its not already.I saw a270 for sale in alocal paper for $350 Can complete,should have bought it for spare parts,but I've already re bearinged my whole drive u-joint to prop.take some mor pics when its apart.Andy.

MOP
05-03-2003, 12:38 AM
Andy it looks as if the spline rode out about 1/3 the way, it needs a good looking over but knowing how good the metals are in the drive it may be able to be saved. I've seen a couple that were not tight, but never one that screwed out completely. The yoke looks like crap, I hope the gear is Ok. Next week will see whats around. What kind of magic surgery are you doing?

Craig
05-03-2003, 02:58 PM
Andy and M.O.P. -- Sorry haven't responded. Was out of town for a couple of days. Thanks for the continued input. Sounds interesting, scary, etc. I guess I'm going to go tear the upper apart now. M.O.P. -- I guess that answers your question, no I hadn't had it apart yet. Uh-Oh! I'll do that and try to get some more pics. The real situation is: I "do" WANT TO shell out the bucks to fix it, I just don't have a lot to spend on it right now. It will get fixed; just not sure of the schedule. I think I am going to take Andy's advice on the other manual too. I've seen one (I forget the name) that looks better than the one I have. Might help some. I think I understand pretty much what you guys are saying I need to look at. Gotta take a look at everything again and study your replies. Thanks again for all the thought. Will let you know how things go ASAP.

MOP
05-03-2003, 06:44 PM
You can more than likely use the forward yoke and constant speed joint the drive yoke is garbage, if the gear is half way decent inside you may get away with that. you will have to see how tightly the new drive end yoke fits into the gear, should not have any slop what soever. Even so I would be very tempted to Lock tight the spline with regular Locktite and use Ultra Loc on reasembly. Like Andy said pull the four allens out of the front you may have a problem pulling it out with nothing to get hold of, you may get away with some carefull prying. The engine shaft looks decent so I would do seals and bearing and "New Snap ring" I am big on new snap rings on any assembly. You may just get away not spending to many bucks. Again my big worry would be any play in the sline, it may just loosen up from any movement and go back to square ONE!

Craig
05-05-2003, 06:14 AM
M.O.P -- Whew! Between yours and Andy's replies, I've had to stop and compile a glossary of terms! Trying to keep up between this info. and my manual.

In your last reply, what is the constant speed joint? Is it the yoke connector thing a ma bob? Man I'm in trouble aren't I?? Just kidding I haven't given up yet. Do nee that clarifed though.

I've been piecing together what you've both said and re: the drive yoke, I hate to say it, but I think it must've come unscrewed before my last U-Joint replacememtn because, even though I followed the manual, somehow I missed anything about that socket screw that holds it (the drive yoke) in place. That is, when I took it apart last time everything just came right out. I can't believe I used the boat for 3 seasons like that!!

Next question is, when I put a new one back in, how do I get to that screw? Do I have to take the shift mechanism cover off to get at it or what my manual calls the "clamp ring"??

Anyway, more new info. = I took the top cover off of the upper gear housing. Was going to get some pics of that, but not sure it would help. Visually, that looks fine. I tried to move the vertical shaft around (up, down, etc.). No sideways movement. Up and down seems "pretty tight" Moved 1/32" (could slip a piece of metal that is that thickness under the brass (?) washer that is under the top nut. Did this by pulling up slightly on the nut with vice grips. Is 1/32" minimal enough to leave it alone?

Also, I guess I have to take the 4 front bolts (from the clamp ring) out to expose the gear for viewing.

Will chek in later. Gotta Roll. Pesky thing called work is calling!

MOP
05-05-2003, 07:31 AM
Have to laugh! This is one for the record, can't believe anyone could get away with the floating U joint for any length of time. I will have to check the book on the end play on the vertical shaft, It does move a bit as it held in place by two 1/2 rings in a collar. I don't think you will find much if anything wrong in the main part of the drive. The spline in the pinion and what ever damage the yoke did running all those years. If that buggered beyond safe usage you will be in for a gear set and a shim job. You going to have to get a decent book to go forward, Seloc's book is pretty decent and less expensive that the factory books. Give me a couple of days, I'll ask around to see if some has a cheap complete upper, that may be the easy way out. Maybe one of the other members has one gathering dust on the shelf. I am probably behind the times on prices but the gear set was over $400 last I looked, and that plus all the other stuff. That job will get pricy if that inner splines bad. Check those splines very carefully let us know what you see, you might get away with using it. If I find an upper will let you know $$.

To all Volvo owners another testimonial to this very tough drive!

Craig
05-06-2003, 09:22 AM
M.O.P., Andy (etc.) -- Here's a couple more pics:

1) bearing at top of vertical shaft:
http://www.donzi.net/photos/CZimmermann117.jpg
As I said this "seems" pretty tight. Recall I noted it had no side play and only about 1/32" movement pulling up and down.

2) female splines in upper gear housing:
http://www.donzi.net/photos/CZimmermann120.jpg
These look good to me too. Can see them a little better here than last pics (I think). Doesn't look or feel like these are scarred (like the male splines were on the drive yoke).

So my qestion is ( I think I sort of asked this before), do I have to remove the clamp ring? Should I still check the gears? I was thinking, since this stuff seemed tight, I might not have to, but I'll do it if you guys think I should. Also asked above, it looks like I may have to take that off anyway to get to the screw when I install the new drive/yoke/spine piece. Is that right?

M.O.P -- Appreciate you checking around. Any Luck? As you said, maybe I can get this back together with minimal cost. I'm embarrassed, but thats the facts. I don't have a lot of extra $$ for this project right now. As I learn more, I'm getting interested in eventually fixing it all up right. Would like to just get it running this time around. Hopefully get some reasonable time out of it.

MOP
05-06-2003, 04:05 PM
So far the only thing I have turned is a complete drive for $800. I know you can do a cheaper fix.
"The following is not how I would do it not knowing for sure what condition the inner spine is in (picture does look good), but I know you do not want to go for a gear set"

But here goes!
The bell housing shaft looks good, do the bearing, seals and new snap ring the rounded edge of the snap ring goes toward the bearing, sharper edge toward the shaft land, all snap rings are suppose to be installed with the sharp edge toward the the land it helps to keep them from popping out under pressure. That should do away with the play you discribed
Change out splined drive yoke with brand new unit (I would also change joints) Pull the bearing assembly out of the upper "be careful of the shims" the seal in the gear case looks to be Ok, clean splines inner gear and yoke using gas first then Acetone "See Note", apply Locktite primer to both inner and outer splines. Make sure you have torque wrench ready you will have about 15 minutes before Locktite starts to kick off, with a small brush coat the inner and outer spines with "RED" Locktite, put it together using "BLUE" Locktite on the securing bolt and tapper seating washer and torque it to spec. Let the Locktite cure at least 24 hours before going any further, what you are trying to do is to make up for un evenness in the splines inside the gear, the new yoke will help a bunch. The rest you should be able to wade through. Use the book I hope you bought to make sure you do what you can to Spec, I am pretty sure you will be a happy camper. I have a ton of faith in the metals used by Volvo.

Note: When you clean with the Acetone and the apply primer to the inner splines keep both products from getting on the seal, I am sure one or the other will eat the seal. Take your time with a small brush tap excess off brush.
Someone mentioned that Chrysler U joints will fit, hopefully they have the cross over numbers, I bet except for the ends its all car crap.

Craig
05-07-2003, 12:25 PM
M.O.P. (and other contributers)-- O.K. I think I can get through the repairs as discussed here.

Getting the Sealoc Manual prior to continuing, as suggested.

A final thanks for all the input. Hopefully no more questions until I'm done.

Andy knuth
05-07-2003, 05:47 PM
Craig sorry to spoil your fun but you didn't need to take the top off yet.Take the clamp ring of and you'll know right away if the gears are bad
.Take the 4 bolts out and pull it apart, nothing will jump out at you or anything like that, just watch out for the shims .Thats how you get at the retaining bolt and hat washer.I have the seloc manuel, It'll tell you everything you need to know.Lots off luck Andy.