302 Stroker kits

[olredalert]

Griz and others who may have knowledge,

-----What do you guys think of the 347-354 stroker kits for 302 Ford small-blocks that Ive been hearing about?I have a specific reason for using a 302 block instead of a 351,and will probably use a later year seasoned block.They apparently have provisions cast into them for roller cams.Was also thinking of the cast iron World heads,Holman-Moody aluminum intake(fresh water use only)with the 650 marine Holley,and a good ignition.My marine friendly builder says we can generate 325 to 350 horsepower and large amounts of torque without even breaking into a sweat,but I value your opinions as well and would love to hear them!.......just......ol red!

[Woodsy]

Red,

What is your reason for starting with a 302 and not a 351W? I think the 302/347 stroker kits work just fine in a car, and should be pretty good in a boat. It would be an improvement over the standard Ford 302. I have built quite a few Ford engines, and I won't go into a rebuilding diatribe here, (Looped is still not talking to me... just kidding Looped!) If you ping me offline, I will tell you what you need to know.

Woodsy :D

[olredalert]

When I found out that Holman-Moody only had an intake for the short block 289-302 not the tall block 351 I started looking for ways to dramaticly improve the torque of a 302.I really want to use that Holman-Moody intake and really want the engine to appear original,with dress up stuff.Already have the beautiful valve covers.Im real satisfied with those type of horse and torque figures because I dont want any problems with the original volvo drive...........just......ol red!

[turbo2256]

A set of ported E7TE with larger valves would be what you really need. The World heads have to large a of a port to generate the torque need to spin a bigger prop.
These heads would appear more stock and out flow the World. Best power is produced by the smallest port with the most flow. My friends shop does these for 695 if he gets the castings.Includes SS valves, port work, HD valve springs, retainers. Also the older blocks before 78 are the best they have better bore walls and main webing. Aftermarket hydraulic rollers can be had from just about any cam mfg

[Rick]

I,ve found crate stroker motors on the internet with a cast iron block www.thefordsource.com (http://www.thefordsource.com) . The coolest reason I could figure out would be to stroke the 302 aluminium block lose 150lbs, the 351W aluminum block is special order $3500 bare. Would be fun in the twin GT. Rick

[olredalert]

Thanks for the help,guys!I appreciate it........just.....ol red!

[Rob]

Woodsy:

I'm sure I am not the only one who would be interested in some of your thoughts around high performance Ford small block rebuilding. Most of the early Donzi's all came with these engines, and I'm sure a lot of us would like to retain the original engine and still get some increase in HP.

[Rob]

Turbo,I had always heard that 65 and earlier 289 heads were preferable because everthing after that had the EC "bumps" added in the already restrictive exhaust ports. I assume from the part numbers quoted the heads you are referring to are late 80's, so perhaps the castings changed? Do you think these heads are preferable to the GT40's?

[Looped]

I must have skipped this thread with my “aka” name in it. Woodsy is a good man and he will steer you in the right direction. He convinced me not to go with my “brainstorming” idea to use my Chevy 302 engine in my 67 Classic. Maybe he over convinced me because of my new purchase being a BBC 396/427 Crank for the heartbeat of my new engine.

This picture does not show justice (302 crank w/3.00” stroke on top & 396/427 crank w/3.76” stroke on the bottom) to the size difference comparing the two cranks and the possibilities of the extra torque I will get out of it. biggrin.gif

http://www.donzi.net/photos/cringer061.jpg

Slowly piecing it together but too many parts and too little time………
Craig tongue.gif

[BigGrizzly]

Red the stroker is ok, but a roller is a wast of time. As you know I've built my share of Fords in my time(since I'm a Ford guy) anyway. You don't need much to get what your looking for, I assume is speed. With a little work the stock heads worked will get there. The real factor is RPMs. Don't let some one tell you to spin it at 6000- it won't do it for long in that application. As for heads if you want to get another type fine. If your looking for real ponies(400) you will have to port what ever you get with the exception of TFS( TrickFlow) These arn't stock by any means-alumunum stainless bronze guides need to flycut pistons. My kid got over 600 HP out of his 302(5.0) Mustang with these, and no stroker, no NOS, just a Vortex blower and some other stuff.

Remember Forest gets right at 70 MPH with a 302 a 500CFM carb, stock heads, a Crane cam and I beleive imco, emi type exhaust . He does have a mercruiser with a SS lower on it.

Your iggest problem is the H&M exhaust your using ar a log type and you won't do any high output with them 350Hp and that it. They are old and aluminum and wotk harden than crack.

The Volvo will take that Hp but use 75-90wt gear oil. I use Amszoil in both of ours. I'm pushing well over what you want in my Corsican.

The kid is up next he has the most experience with the 5.0 motor

Randy

[Lil Grizz]

I have tons of experience with the later model 5.0L fords, and im not trying to sound cocky but although they displace 302ci and are nearly identical to the 302/289 it is a different casting and carrys a distinct line of unique parts beyond the roller cam. its usually better to refer to the roller block as a 5.0 and the non roller block as a 302(ive gotten the wrong parts because of this mixup, i.e. rear main seal, pilot bearing, timing chain/cover..etc). For the performance i wouldnt use the ported E7TE heads simply on total cost alone, for the money you can buy a much better head. the E7TE head is the post 1987 head and flows the best of all the stock ford heads, but the investment generally only pays off when racing in a pure stock or true street type race where aftermarket castings arent allowed. These engines also turn at a extremely high RPM for a small block ford and make no power down low. Depending on what material you are looking for in a head (iron/aluminum) i would go with a trick flow variety or the cast iron GT-40. Ive used or been part of the use of most of the realistic head options out there and unless you intend on spinning serious RPM i wouldnt try the world heads. As far as stroking the 302/5.0 NO MATTER WHAT dont go beyond a 347, even a 347 sacrifices durability due to rod angle and the crank modification. The smaller stroker kits are more costly than the larger displacement kits for a good reason. If you want it to last go smaller. If you need a 351ci do yourself a favor and use a real 351 and buy the manifold adapters that are out there to use the 302 intake. I do know what you mean when you say you dont want the 351, i had a 5.0 and refused to step up to the bigger engine on principle alone, and in that process i got to see what happens to a stock block that peaked at 650hp@6000RPM and started at 350hp@2000RPM. That was the street engine, lasted 2 years and split the block, i still have the cam/heads/oil pan...LOL

[turbo2256]

I will agree with most of what Griz has to say but. The E7TE heads are basicly GT 40s but retain the old look. Better are the P heads with relocated spark plugs and raised exhaust ports but they look different. Now what my friend and I have done is taken stock castings for Ford Chevy and Chry and after alot of flow bench work have set up some CNC porting programs for the guy that puts a mild cam headers throttle body/carb on his ride the usuall stuff most any one can do. Needs heads but lower RPM higher torque. Truck motor stuff if you will and dosnt need/want to spend big money on after market heads that are over ported for their needs. port volume is only increased 2 or 3 CCs in most cases. Port opeanings are not enlarged and they are getting flow close to unported after market aluminum heads at low lifts with very high port velosity. Its been proven the most flow with the least port volume produces the most power. These program ported heads work great on cams usally used on wet exhaust apps were alot of lift and duration are not wanted because of reversion. Griz do you see what I am geting at. These are for low RPM engines and high torque. In conclusion for the real high out put stuff. Just about all the after market stuff has been on the flow bench at the shop as castand ported until walls brpke through if the flow kept going up in testing and evaluation. Findings Canfield and Brodex get the best figures have the most consistant castings and machining flow numbers consistantly with in 5 CFM of advertized stage as cast, bowl port, stage 1, 2, 3 etc.. No ofence Griz but try a set of our Canfields on that hot Ford. For the small block chevy guys we just benched a set of heads and havent found a manifold that will do anything but decrease the flow even ported out can you say "sheet metal manifold" three times real fast.

[BigGrizzly]

First there are two Grizzly s. My son, who does the street rods( i'm too old) and me who does the bots motorcycles and cars from the early 1960's to now. You missed the point his motor is a 5.0 (302cid) with a 30 over bore which I bored so I know what it is. He has done all the flow bench stuff as I did.what he didn't tell you was his HP was at 5500 Rpms and his torque started at 1350. the Canfields wouldn't help his combo at all. Most hot rod builders don't beleive the dyno sheet. In fact one of the writers for Fast Fords wanted to do an article on the car but my son passed on it, he didn't want the target on his back. He watched it happen to me and wants no part of it.
The reversion thing in a boat is a pet peve of mine, I think most of it is pure bull. It only happens at idle and/or with stock exhaust with way over camed motors with too low of compression. I do see what your saying with small port volunmes but for velosity only not reversion. Let me throw a wrench into it, My Cleveland in the Corsican, has big ports 2.15 intakes does so well, 530 lift 230+intake duration ad 230+ exhaust with about 107 lobe centers doesn't have a reversion problem, yes it is a dual profile cam. The other things I don't agree with is low ent torque in a boat. The boat sits on the worlds largest high speed torque converter. you need torque above 2500 and higher than 4200 rpms. these boats arn't tougboats with displatment hulls but planers that get heavier the faster they go , not lighter as in a auto.

Randy

[CDMA]

eek.gif eek.gif eek.gif I know I shouldn't say it but no reversion?????

[olredalert]

WOW,

------I should have known I would get more good info than my little pea brain can analyze.I dont have any worries figuring out GM horsepower but these fords are going to take some thought.
------Does the"no bigger than 347"direction apply to setups that wont see much over 5000rpm?Does the rod angle mean that much in these lower rpm extremeties?Can anyone give me a rough idea of cost on some of these prepared heads?
------Turbo,I understand your approach.You are building velocity.I used this same approach on my last drag-motor to gain some extra bottom-end.We used a Dart oval-port dominator intake(smaller runners)with Brodix AFR raised-port heads to push the torque up in the lower(launch)rpms,and it worked.Just a pretty basic 100 over roller-motor and it dynoed at 760hp at 7100rpm.
------Griz,also like your"torque below 2000rpm" comment,as well as the reversion thoughts
------Are E7TE heads Ford items or aftermarket?Are they cast-iron,or other.Will E7TE or GT40 heads bolt to an early 302 block?By early I mean 1969.
------Once again,I appreciate all input!!!!.......ol red!

[turbo2256]

The E7TE are stock heads. They will bolt on any 260, 289 or 302. The port volumes are very small.
The intake is like 140cc the GT 40s are 180. By removing a small amount of metal up inside the port and a bit of work on the inside radius they will out flow the GT 40s but have a much higher port velosity. On the exhaust side the runner is moved a bit closer to the valve center line and flow speeds are increased. All this is done by only adding a few CCs to the ports. Its not the "bumps" that hinder the flow the push rod hole is. the cross section is reduced in this area and the short side radius needs work. By keeping the port volumes down air speed up they produce a lot of low end torque at low lifts and duration. Cost is about the suggested price of one GT 40 head assembled and your getting a pair. If you supply the heads its 100 less.
This principle was applied to my boat a 454 7.4 stock short block, rpm performer intake, 830 Holley turned a 23 p hydromotive 4 blade to 5200 RPM. By only small changes as mentioned above to a set of Edelbrock oval port heads I now push a 26P hydromotive prop to 5200 RPM. Flow numbers are higher than the magnum square port heads but port volume is less. This isn't exactly comparing apples and oranges but I now turn a prop that would normally be assosiated with a 502 motor and I still have a 7.4 cam. If I had put square port heads on it this would not have happened. The square ports have way more port volume. With headers a small cam change and boat would realy cook.

[olredalert]

Turbo,

-----Where in Mi.Are you from?As I am from East China(north of Marine City)its possible we may be able to do some business,once I get started on this project........just.......ol red!

[turbo2256]

I am in Westland. Been by Marine city in the boat quite a few times. Last time at about 70 with CG following me. They didn't seem to notice though.

[BigGrizzly]

Red, I have a good set of I7TE heads I had in the basement I will give you when you come down, just too lazy to pack and ship.

Randy